Clemson accused of stealing Signs.

So does this fall under:. "If you ain't cheating, you're not trying hard enough." Or...it is morally wrong to do this and goes against the spirit of fair play?

Remember David is a devout Christian.
http://www.tigernet.com/update/ACC-assis...igns-27097

If you read the article all it tells us is that Clemson is very good at being able to know what play the offense is going to run in games that the play is signaled in from the side line, I would not call this cheating.

(07-05-2017 08:17 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Clemson accused of stealing Signs.

So does this fall under:. "If you ain't cheating, you're not trying hard enough." Or...it is morally wrong to do this and goes against the spirit of fair play?

Remember David is a devout Christian.
http://www.tigernet.com/update/ACC-assis...igns-27097

It depends on how they are "stolen". If it's because you've hacked into their computers to get a sign code or something, then that's out of bounds cheating. But if you're just good at reading them and interpreting them from the sidelines during games, then that's the opposite of cheating, it's good alertness by your coaching personnel or players.

(07-05-2017 08:34 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-05-2017 08:17 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Clemson accused of stealing Signs.

So does this fall under:. "If you ain't cheating, you're not trying hard enough." Or...it is morally wrong to do this and goes against the spirit of fair play?

Remember David is a devout Christian.
http://www.tigernet.com/update/ACC-assis...igns-27097

It depends on how they are "stolen". If it's because you've hacked into their computers to get a sign code or something, then that's out of bounds cheating. But if you're just good at reading them and interpreting them from the sidelines during games, then that's the opposite of cheating, it's good alertness by your coaching personnel or players.

I agree, if the other team is stealing your signs that is your own fault. ECU has had that issue in the past. The best way to do it was the old fashion way of sending a player into the huddle with the play (no way for anyone to steal the signs that way). I doubt anyone in college football still huddles.

(07-05-2017 08:41 AM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  

(07-05-2017 08:34 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-05-2017 08:17 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Clemson accused of stealing Signs.

So does this fall under:. "If you ain't cheating, you're not trying hard enough." Or...it is morally wrong to do this and goes against the spirit of fair play?

Remember David is a devout Christian.
http://www.tigernet.com/update/ACC-assis...igns-27097

It depends on how they are "stolen". If it's because you've hacked into their computers to get a sign code or something, then that's out of bounds cheating. But if you're just good at reading them and interpreting them from the sidelines during games, then that's the opposite of cheating, it's good alertness by your coaching personnel or players.

I agree, if the other team is stealing your signs that is your own fault. ECU has had that issue in the past. The best way to do it was the old fashion way of sending a player into the huddle with the play (no way for anyone to steal the signs that way). I doubt anyone in college football still huddles.

Yes, I've never been of the opinion that the opposing team is obligated to avert their eyes or not use their brains when my team is sending signals. It's our job to protect them, and vice-versa.

(07-05-2017 08:17 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Clemson accused of stealing Signs.

So does this fall under:. "If you ain't cheating, you're not trying hard enough." Or...it is morally wrong to do this and goes against the spirit of fair play?

Remember David is a devout Christian.
http://www.tigernet.com/update/ACC-assis...igns-27097

Who is this David of which you speak?

And if he is that devout, and God is on his side, wouldn't he just know what plays are coming by divine inspiration?

I agree with most of the sentiments already expressed. When you use them in the game they are fair targets. I would be against it if they were hacking computers or sending spys in.

One reason teams don't huddle is that they feel it gives them an advantage over the defense, which has less time to react, and they are implicitly accepting the risk that their signs may be exposed by doing this. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

On a related subject, if you are playing poker and your opponent has a "tell", is it unethical to use that against him?

(07-05-2017 09:16 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(07-05-2017 08:17 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Clemson accused of stealing Signs.

So does this fall under:. "If you ain't cheating, you're not trying hard enough." Or...it is morally wrong to do this and goes against the spirit of fair play?

Remember David is a devout Christian.
http://www.tigernet.com/update/ACC-assis...igns-27097

Who is this David of which you speak?

And if he is that devout, and God is on his side, wouldn't he just know what plays are coming by divine inspiration?

Spell check...lol Dabo

BTW, I lean towards it is ok to break the signals through observation...if they are hacking computer s or paying a staffer to get the signals then that is not ok.

My feelings:. Get better signals

If they are paying or doing something illegal, then there is an issue. If they are breaking the code, more power to them. Stealing signals have been of sports since they were first started to be used. To complain about stolen signals would be the same as penalizing a qb for a hard snap count to draw defenses of sides. I mean he is trying to get them to jump by acting like they stole his snap count.

Football is one of the few games that actually resemble life. Please don't let the pc police andsnowflakes take this away from the great sport. There will be times teams score at will and you should be embarrassed. There will be teams the best teams lose to a lesser team because the other teams plans were that much better. There will be a mistake by a player the cost the game and they have to deal. Football is a game of winners and losers. Not everyone gets a trophy. The one thing I love about football, finishing 2nd sometimes is far worse than finishing last. Ask Buffalo, Minnesota and now Falcon fans about that. Long live football!

Ok. The instance they describe is the same as stealing signs in baseball.

In any case, I don't think they are very good at it. The needed OT to beat a 3-5 NC State team and lost at home to a 5-3 Pitt team.

(07-05-2017 08:34 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-05-2017 08:17 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Clemson accused of stealing Signs.

So does this fall under:. "If you ain't cheating, you're not trying hard enough." Or...it is morally wrong to do this and goes against the spirit of fair play?

Remember David is a devout Christian.
http://www.tigernet.com/update/ACC-assis...igns-27097

It depends on how they are "stolen". If it's because you've hacked into their computers to get a sign code or something, then that's out of bounds cheating. But if you're just good at reading them and interpreting them from the sidelines during games, then that's the opposite of cheating, it's good alertness by your coaching personnel or players.

This.

Its part of the game if you can do it on the fly.

(07-05-2017 09:38 AM)ken d Wrote:  One reason teams don't huddle is that they feel it gives them an advantage over the defense, which has less time to react, and they are implicitly accepting the risk that their signs may be exposed by doing this. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

On a related subject, if you are playing poker and your opponent has a "tell", is it unethical to use that against him?

Yeah .... and if your opponent's radio color guy is insane, and gives you a couple of trick plays that they may or may not run against you, is it unethical to look at them?

Sports competition was pushed by military schools because it built teamwork and because it built mental toughness. In the military breaking the the oppositions codes is fair game. It's called intelligence work. Intelligence is part of sports whether that is analyzing game film and breaking down tendencies, or stealing the signals from the sidelines.

If a school, as in baseball, suspects the signs are being stolen it is up to them to be smart enough to change the signs. Hurry up offenses rely upon signals because sending in a player with the call takes time before another play can be run. So using the stupid pictures is a code which is fair game to the opponents brain trust to break. If you are too stupid to realize your code has been broken then you deserve what you get. That is another way in which head coaches play a direct role in a competition.

I hope we never take the intelligence aspect out of any of our sports.

It's up you to protect the integrity of your signs & playbook. It's up to you to know where the first down marker is & not to depend on an optional marker that is misplaced by a 1/2 yard.

(07-05-2017 08:17 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Clemson accused of stealing Signs.

So does this fall under:. "If you ain't cheating, you're not trying hard enough." Or...it is morally wrong to do this and goes against the spirit of fair play?

Remember David is a devout Christian.
http://www.tigernet.com/update/ACC-assis...igns-27097

Lol, so why bother with even using signals if people aren't supposed to steal them? Just call out the play and hope the other team honors your request of not using it against you. If the other team has a guy who is smart enough to figure out your no huddle signs, then your doing it wrong or you better change your offensive scheme. Or better yet, offer the code breaker triple what he is making and bring him onto your staff.

(07-05-2017 08:34 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(07-05-2017 08:17 AM)TexanMark Wrote:  Clemson accused of stealing Signs.

So does this fall under:. "If you ain't cheating, you're not trying hard enough." Or...it is morally wrong to do this and goes against the spirit of fair play?

Remember David is a devout Christian.
http://www.tigernet.com/update/ACC-assis...igns-27097

It depends on how they are "stolen". If it's because you've hacked into their computers to get a sign code or something, then that's out of bounds cheating. But if you're just good at reading them and interpreting them from the sidelines during games, then that's the opposite of cheating, it's good alertness by your coaching personnel or players.

This too!

Are there any rules explicitly against observing the opposing team's visual cues, during gameplay?

Would guess not ... but don't know for certain

(07-05-2017 12:52 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Sports competition was pushed by military schools because it built teamwork and because it built mental toughness. In the military breaking the the oppositions codes is fair game. It's called intelligence work. Intelligence is part of sports whether that is analyzing game film and breaking down tendencies, or stealing the signals from the sidelines.

If a school, as in baseball, suspects the signs are being stolen it is up to them to be smart enough to change the signs. Hurry up offenses rely upon signals because sending in a player with the call takes time before another play can be run. So using the stupid pictures is a code which is fair game to the opponents brain trust to break. If you are too stupid to realize your code has been broken then you deserve what you get. That is another way in which head coaches play a direct role in a competition.

I hope we never take the intelligence aspect out of any of our sports.

I know the spirit of what you're saying ... but truly, cyber-attacking the opponent is a big part of the modern military.

I'm certain you're not advocating hacking an opposing team's video cut-up system, though.

(07-05-2017 07:31 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(07-05-2017 12:52 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Sports competition was pushed by military schools because it built teamwork and because it built mental toughness. In the military breaking the the oppositions codes is fair game. It's called intelligence work. Intelligence is part of sports whether that is analyzing game film and breaking down tendencies, or stealing the signals from the sidelines.

If a school, as in baseball, suspects the signs are being stolen it is up to them to be smart enough to change the signs. Hurry up offenses rely upon signals because sending in a player with the call takes time before another play can be run. So using the stupid pictures is a code which is fair game to the opponents brain trust to break. If you are too stupid to realize your code has been broken then you deserve what you get. That is another way in which head coaches play a direct role in a competition.

I hope we never take the intelligence aspect out of any of our sports.

I know the spirit of what you're saying ... but truly, cyber-attacking the opponent is a big part of the modern military.

I'm certain you're not advocating hacking an opposing team's video cut-up system, though.

Bear Bryant was once alleged to have tapped the phones from the press box to the sidelines at Legion Field. But no, I do not advocate taking anything that isn't there for all to see. Therefore hand signals, placards, and other forms of visual communication are fair game.