(07-10-2017 04:29 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 02:04 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 01:52 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 10:50 AM)NoDak Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 10:28 AM)dbackjon Wrote:  That is incorrect

Happen till about 10 years ago you did not need a conference invite go to Division I

Look at the coders could've chosen to go division one at any time in their existence no school was blocking them


To the coaches had a choice would northern Colorado with division one without a conference invite they could have joined them probably got in Omaha at the same time and maybe one of the Minnesota or South Dakota private schools to go in the north-central could've gone up as a unit and you would've had an automatic bid within two years

Decision not to go to the vision one was purely North Dakota's decision You are lying when you say otherwise

You have no clue what you are talking about and you compensate for it by accusing me of lying.

ND is very conservative economically and SD even more. Moving to DI would have been very expensive without a conference. The Mid-Con at that time wasn't the least bit interested.

Look up archives in ND newspapers as it all there. Specifically in the 70's when the college division split into DII and DIII and when the Big Sky lost Nevada, Boise, and Idaho. The Big Sky wrongly chose weak west coast schools instead of stronger Northern Great Plains ones because they were so entranced by markets, and not competition and academics.

I have far more a clue than you.

The Big Sky did not block the Dakotas from Going DI. That is a lie. When Northern Colorado when DI, they did so without a conference.

When the Big Sky expanded with the California schools, all of the Dakota Schools were DII, with NO hint of any desire to move to Division I.


So your whole posts are based on lies. Please get back to reality.

You've proven your a liar and a fool. You simply have no clue about the Dakotas.

All of the Dakotas moved up without a conference invite. UND moved up with an assurance that the Big Sky would take them when it's transition was over because the Montanas were deadly serious about it. NDSU and SDSU had previously tried to get the Montanas to force them in, but failed. But they lucked out because the Summit kicked out Chicago St and Centenary dropped to DIII, so the then Mid-Con was desperate for members and finally picked them up because there was few other alternatives.

Centenary was in the Summit when we joined. Did the Mid Con need members? Yes. And we were more then happy to get in and eventually, take the league over.

Let's face it. UND and USD followed SDSU and NDSU. We even created a league you could play in, though we only created it for FB (Great West). UND and USD were talking to the Summit and hoping for an MVFC invite. USD got their invite, UND did not.

The Big Sky did not promise UND anything. Fullerton used UND and USD to try and lure SDSU, and his big prize NDSU to the BSC. Had he been able to grab all four Dakota schools he could have built his super conference. In Fullerton's last interview before retirement he stated that his biggest failure as commissioner was not getting NDSU into the league. Why? Had he gotten NDSU the three other Dakota schools would have followed.

Well I made a mistake with the Summit revolving door. Valpo got the hell out so the xDSU's got a chance when Valpo and Chicago St left a gaping hole in the conference.

When are going to admit that Fullerton didn't have a vote? Some schools were pushing for us and it was certainly the Montanas.

The MVFC didn't trust NDSU and SDSU to stick around as they were afraid they would elope with the Montanas so that got in with outrageous FCS exit fees. The MVC Presidents would like a word with the two jack offs on this board.

(07-10-2017 02:20 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Thanks jacks, for the recap. Guess I was wrong that the talks only happened after UNC moved up, though wouldn't be surprised if informal discussions had been happening well before then. I can't believe UNC just woke up one day and moved DI.

One other thing: DII had become watered down well before UNC moved up, due to football scholarship reductions. And the smaller schools were talking about reducing them further. That was one of the biggest arguments of "pro-move" NDSU fans.

UNC really started the discussion. UNC wanted partner(s) to go up with them. At that time NDSU and SDSU were the only schools who had the ability to move but politics in the Dakota's is messy so they chose to try and get the NCC to move up together. When that failed, the two school President's at the XDSU's decided to go it alone. I don't know if you recall but in both states it was ugly. UND, and to a lesser extent USD made life miserable at the legislative level, and in the media for the XDSU's.

(07-10-2017 04:40 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 04:29 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 02:04 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 01:52 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 10:50 AM)NoDak Wrote:  You have no clue what you are talking about and you compensate for it by accusing me of lying.

ND is very conservative economically and SD even more. Moving to DI would have been very expensive without a conference. The Mid-Con at that time wasn't the least bit interested.

Look up archives in ND newspapers as it all there. Specifically in the 70's when the college division split into DII and DIII and when the Big Sky lost Nevada, Boise, and Idaho. The Big Sky wrongly chose weak west coast schools instead of stronger Northern Great Plains ones because they were so entranced by markets, and not competition and academics.

I have far more a clue than you.

The Big Sky did not block the Dakotas from Going DI. That is a lie. When Northern Colorado when DI, they did so without a conference.

When the Big Sky expanded with the California schools, all of the Dakota Schools were DII, with NO hint of any desire to move to Division I.


So your whole posts are based on lies. Please get back to reality.

You've proven your a liar and a fool. You simply have no clue about the Dakotas.

All of the Dakotas moved up without a conference invite. UND moved up with an assurance that the Big Sky would take them when it's transition was over because the Montanas were deadly serious about it. NDSU and SDSU had previously tried to get the Montanas to force them in, but failed. But they lucked out because the Summit kicked out Chicago St and Centenary dropped to DIII, so the then Mid-Con was desperate for members and finally picked them up because there was few other alternatives.

Centenary was in the Summit when we joined. Did the Mid Con need members? Yes. And we were more then happy to get in and eventually, take the league over.

Let's face it. UND and USD followed SDSU and NDSU. We even created a league you could play in, though we only created it for FB (Great West). UND and USD were talking to the Summit and hoping for an MVFC invite. USD got their invite, UND did not.

The Big Sky did not promise UND anything. Fullerton used UND and USD to try and lure SDSU, and his big prize NDSU to the BSC. Had he been able to grab all four Dakota schools he could have built his super conference. In Fullerton's last interview before retirement he stated that his biggest failure as commissioner was not getting NDSU into the league. Why? Had he gotten NDSU the three other Dakota schools would have followed.

Well I made a mistake with the Summit revolving door. Valpo got the hell out so the xDSU's got a chance when Valpo and Chicago St left a gaping hole in the conference.

When are going to admit that Fullerton didn't have a vote? Some schools were pushing for us and it was certainly the Montanas.

The MVFC didn't trust NDSU and SDSU to stick around as they were afraid they would elope with the Montanas so that got in with outrageous FCS exit fees. The MVC Presidents would like a word with the two jack offs on this board.

The Montana's also wanted SDSU and NDSU when we applied. So what, it takes more votes then 2 to get invited to a league. As for Fullerton, he was building his dream and got the smaller schools to finally go along with it. If you like I'll find the article in which Fullerton is quoted. It is actually pretty easy to find, google is your friend.

Outrageous fees? We paid $250,000 each, wow, how outrageous. Definitely less then the $1.5 million UND will be paying the Summit. The MVFC, formerly the Gateway lost Western Kentucky and had to decide if they wanted to go with 7 or invite SDSU and NDSU to get to 9. They chose 9. It really isn't that complicated.

I'll now leave you to your fantasies. Since this thread is supposed to be about the BSC, not UND and the history behind your school wanting to stay D2 it is time to move on.

(07-10-2017 04:41 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 02:20 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Thanks jacks, for the recap. Guess I was wrong that the talks only happened after UNC moved up, though wouldn't be surprised if informal discussions had been happening well before then. I can't believe UNC just woke up one day and moved DI.

One other thing: DII had become watered down well before UNC moved up, due to football scholarship reductions. And the smaller schools were talking about reducing them further. That was one of the biggest arguments of "pro-move" NDSU fans.

UNC really started the discussion. UNC wanted partner(s) to go up with them. At that time NDSU and SDSU were the only schools who had the ability to move but politics in the Dakota's is messy so they chose to try and get the NCC to move up together. When that failed, the two school President's at the XDSU's decided to go it alone. I don't know if you recall but in both states it was ugly. UND, and to a lesser extent USD made life miserable at the legislative level, and in the media for the XDSU's.

UND was planning for DI but needed time to ensure that it's large operating costs with the REA would be covered, which are part of a charitable foundation. Grand Forks was still recovering from the the worst USA flood and evacuation up to New Orleans. The arena was given in response to that flood, as Engelstad wanted the best for UND and Grand Forks, where he first cut his teeth as a developer that later made him a fortune in Vegas. I grew will up in home that his company built afaik.

NDSU grad legislators were the ones that opposed any DI spending - that is a recorded fact. That UND opposed a legislative battle over DI, when it wanted to go itself later, just goes to show how much garbage you ingested from clueless fans. NDSU was demanding we schedule them in their transition when they would have had a massive scholarship advantage and they were royally passed when we didn't obey their demands.

(07-10-2017 04:51 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 04:40 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 04:29 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 02:04 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 01:52 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  I have far more a clue than you.

The Big Sky did not block the Dakotas from Going DI. That is a lie. When Northern Colorado when DI, they did so without a conference.

When the Big Sky expanded with the California schools, all of the Dakota Schools were DII, with NO hint of any desire to move to Division I.


So your whole posts are based on lies. Please get back to reality.

You've proven your a liar and a fool. You simply have no clue about the Dakotas.

All of the Dakotas moved up without a conference invite. UND moved up with an assurance that the Big Sky would take them when it's transition was over because the Montanas were deadly serious about it. NDSU and SDSU had previously tried to get the Montanas to force them in, but failed. But they lucked out because the Summit kicked out Chicago St and Centenary dropped to DIII, so the then Mid-Con was desperate for members and finally picked them up because there was few other alternatives.

Centenary was in the Summit when we joined. Did the Mid Con need members? Yes. And we were more then happy to get in and eventually, take the league over.

Let's face it. UND and USD followed SDSU and NDSU. We even created a league you could play in, though we only created it for FB (Great West). UND and USD were talking to the Summit and hoping for an MVFC invite. USD got their invite, UND did not.

The Big Sky did not promise UND anything. Fullerton used UND and USD to try and lure SDSU, and his big prize NDSU to the BSC. Had he been able to grab all four Dakota schools he could have built his super conference. In Fullerton's last interview before retirement he stated that his biggest failure as commissioner was not getting NDSU into the league. Why? Had he gotten NDSU the three other Dakota schools would have followed.

Well I made a mistake with the Summit revolving door. Valpo got the hell out so the xDSU's got a chance when Valpo and Chicago St left a gaping hole in the conference.

When are going to admit that Fullerton didn't have a vote? Some schools were pushing for us and it was certainly the Montanas.

The MVFC didn't trust NDSU and SDSU to stick around as they were afraid they would elope with the Montanas so that got in with outrageous FCS exit fees. The MVC Presidents would like a word with the two jack offs on this board.

The Montana's also wanted SDSU and NDSU when we applied. So what, it takes more votes then 2 to get invited to a league. As for Fullerton, he was building his dream and got the smaller schools to finally go along with it. If you like I'll find the article in which Fullerton is quoted. It is actually pretty easy to find, google is your friend.

Outrageous fees? We paid $250,000 each, wow, how outrageous. Definitely less then the $1.5 million UND will be paying the Summit. The MVFC, formerly the Gateway lost Western Kentucky and had to decide if they wanted to go with 7 or invite SDSU and NDSU to get to 9. They chose 9. It really isn't that complicated.

I'll now leave you to your fantasies. Since this thread is supposed to be about the BSC, not UND and the history behind your school wanting to stay D2 it is time to move on.

Talking about exit fees, not entrance fees, if you had left by 2016, which would have been new nearly a mill for one sport affiliation. Just keep posting, because your cluelessness goes on and on.

They were compelling financial reasons that UND delayed a DI decision after the flood, like several hundred million dollars in flood damages on campus and more than a billion in the community, but you insist on your deluded version of history. NDSU jumped at the chance to kick us when we were down.

Where do you get this "the Montana's wanted" BS? Post a link to back this outrageous claim up.

(07-10-2017 05:06 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Where do you get this "the Montana's wanted" BS? Post a link to back this outrageous claim up.

More delusionals show up.

The Grand Forks Herald was not on the Internet in the 1970's and 1990'S. Most of their microfilm records were destroyed in a fire that ravaged downtown Grand Forks in the aftermath of the flood.

Just have to take the the word of a 13 year old that heard from a UND AD and read it in the paper too.

Show me records where the Montana schools opposed any Dakota to get in the Big Sky. That is a more reasonable demand. But that can't be found but you insist it's ridiculous. Clueless to regional thought.

The MVFC exit fee was 500k for the first 5 years for NDSU and SDSU. That was the Western Kentucky rule. They rewarded the XDSUs with adding South Dakota and now with North Dakota.

(07-10-2017 04:41 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 02:20 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Thanks jacks, for the recap. Guess I was wrong that the talks only happened after UNC moved up, though wouldn't be surprised if informal discussions had been happening well before then. I can't believe UNC just woke up one day and moved DI.

One other thing: DII had become watered down well before UNC moved up, due to football scholarship reductions. And the smaller schools were talking about reducing them further. That was one of the biggest arguments of "pro-move" NDSU fans.

UNC really started the discussion. UNC wanted partner(s) to go up with them. At that time NDSU and SDSU were the only schools who had the ability to move but politics in the Dakota's is messy so they chose to try and get the NCC to move up together. When that failed, the two school President's at the XDSU's decided to go it alone. I don't know if you recall but in both states it was ugly. UND, and to a lesser extent USD made life miserable at the legislative level, and in the media for the XDSU's.

A slight expansion/clarification about UNC:

UNC's decision did not come out of nowhere. There had been a multi-year moratorium on schools moving up to DI after the first billion dollar TV contract with CBS. The existing DI schools were worried about a mass move-up of schools and conferences, all with dollar signs in their eyes. They knew they needed to rewrite the rules to make it hard for schools to move up and impossible for conferences to move up as a whole. But crafting those rules would take time, so they put a blanket moratorium on it for 3 or 4 years.

During that time, UNC and UC Davis both decided to move up. UNC had always been a cultural and geographic outlier in the NCC. The Big Sky was much more attractive to them, but an invite was not imminent. The thing that pushed them over the edge was a promised donation of $1M/year for several years by a prominent Colorado business family. (Think it was Coors, but could be wrong.) That money gave them the confidence to make the move all on their own. (The money never came BTW, which is a big reason UNC basically face planted during their initial DI years.) As soon as the moratorium expired, they made their move.

NDSU heard about UNC's move and asked them to wait a year so that NDSU could get the support of the rest of the NCC, but UNC wasn't interested in waiting. Everything else you guys(except NoDak) have said is correct. NDSU, SDSU & USD wanted the move but USD wasn't willing to move without the bulk of the NCC. The hockey schools were dead set against the move and they were led by UND and St. Cloud State. The hockey schools already had everything they wanted: Their #1 sport was already DI, and DII for everything else allowed them keep the budgets down. The actions of UNC, NDSU & SDSU threatened to(and did) upset their happy little apple carts. Their response was to do everything within their power to cause the xDSU's move to fail. UND and USD only decided to move when it was clear the xDSU's move had been a success and the UxDs were about to be completely marginalized in the region.



As for the Montanas' and the Big Sky's view, it's complicated. I can't speak much about the Dakota schools in the late 70's. I do know there were discussions at NDSU about moving up at the time, but obviously a decision was made to stay in DII. From one side I've heard that the Monantas and Big Sky asked NDSU, and NDSU said no. And from a different group I've heard that NDSU quietly asked the Big Sky for support back then, but the Big Sky said no. I don't know who to believe.

Things I do know:

1. There was significant support to add NDSU & SDSU to the Big Sky back around 2005. A majority of Big Sky schools and Fullerton were all for the additions. But it wasn't unanimous and that was a big deal at the time. The conference decided that any addition needed the support of absolutely everyone, and the xDSUs didn't have it. UNC was chosen because, while nobody loved them, nobody hated them either. Exactly which schools were opposed to the xDSUs depends on who you ask. Some say one or both of the Montanas, while others say the Montanas were the big pushers of the xDSUs. Safe money is on Sac St and/or Port St, but only the people involved know for certain.

2. By 2010, the Big Sky presidents knew they had made a mistake by not listening to Fullerton and by not adding the xDSUs back in 2005. So when Fullerton came to them with a plan to get the xDSUs by forming an FCS super-conference, they were ready to jump on board. (remember that this was the period where everyone was certain the 6 BCS conferences were about to realign into four 16-team super-conferences) Fullerton's plan was to get the xDSUs by destroying the Summit and then crippling the MVFC. (I sometimes think NoDak is somehow linked to Fullerton or UND admin of this period because this is when he started going on and on about the "Slummit" and its (not so)imminent demise.)

To destroy the Summit, Fullerton would take a current member(SUU) and then take both of the expansion candidates(UxDs). This would put the Summit in a precarious position with no quick replacements. Then all that would be needed would be the Horizon grabbing Oakland and maybe IUPUI and/or IPFW, and maybe the Southland grabbing ORU. At that point, the Big Sky would become appealing enough for the xDSU's to jump ship and build the Big Sky into a super conference of 16-teams for football and 14-teams for everything else. The end result would be complete Big Sky FCS dominance west of the Mississippi River. The Big Sky schools jumped on board with this plan, but it all fell apart when USD flipped back to the Summit/MVFC and the Horizon expansion happened slowly enough for the Summit to backfill with UNO & Denver.

3. With the super-conference plan blowing up in his face, Fullerton tried one last shot with the hybrid WAC/Big Sky FBS/FCS conference which is what NoDak has been pushing versions of on here and everywhere else(another reason why I wonder if he has some connection to Fullerton.) But with the failure of the previous plan causing all sorts of scheduling and travel budget nightmares, the Big Sky presidents weren't interested at all and Fullerton shuffled off into retirement.


And that leads us to where we are. UND was a remnant of a failed experiment and everyone was happy to see them go to the Summit with the rest of the Dakota schools where they've always belonged. The grand master plan is dead and gone, even if one person won't let it go. And the lesson to be learned is that nine times out of ten, a conference will do the bare minimum to get what they feel they need. And that one time out of ten that they don't, ends up being a cautionary tale(Big Sky 2012) as often as it's a success(Big East split or MWC creation). University presidents tend to be very conservative when it comes to athletics(not speaking politically, of course). Most don't understand how they work, so they play it safe. And even if 20-30% of presidents are willing to take risks, that isn't enough for the big conference moves some on here like to propose. The likelihood of a conference realignment scenario is inversely proportional to the number of moves, and it's an exponential relationship.



Sorry for the length.

(07-10-2017 09:31 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 04:41 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 02:20 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Thanks jacks, for the recap. Guess I was wrong that the talks only happened after UNC moved up, though wouldn't be surprised if informal discussions had been happening well before then. I can't believe UNC just woke up one day and moved DI.

One other thing: DII had become watered down well before UNC moved up, due to football scholarship reductions. And the smaller schools were talking about reducing them further. That was one of the biggest arguments of "pro-move" NDSU fans.

UNC really started the discussion. UNC wanted partner(s) to go up with them. At that time NDSU and SDSU were the only schools who had the ability to move but politics in the Dakota's is messy so they chose to try and get the NCC to move up together. When that failed, the two school President's at the XDSU's decided to go it alone. I don't know if you recall but in both states it was ugly. UND, and to a lesser extent USD made life miserable at the legislative level, and in the media for the XDSU's.

A slight expansion/clarification about UNC:

UNC's decision did not come out of nowhere. There had been a multi-year moratorium on schools moving up to DI after the first billion dollar TV contract with CBS. The existing DI schools were worried about a mass move-up of schools and conferences, all with dollar signs in their eyes. They knew they needed to rewrite the rules to make it hard for schools to move up and impossible for conferences to move up as a whole. But crafting those rules would take time, so they put a blanket moratorium on it for 3 or 4 years.

During that time, UNC and UC Davis both decided to move up. UNC had always been a cultural and geographic outlier in the NCC. The Big Sky was much more attractive to them, but an invite was not imminent. The thing that pushed them over the edge was a promised donation of $1M/year for several years by a prominent Colorado business family. (Think it was Coors, but could be wrong.) That money gave them the confidence to make the move all on their own. (The money never came BTW, which is a big reason UNC basically face planted during their initial DI years.) As soon as the moratorium expired, they made their move.

NDSU heard about UNC's move and asked them to wait a year so that NDSU could get the support of the rest of the NCC, but UNC wasn't interested in waiting. Everything else you guys(except NoDak) have said is correct. NDSU, SDSU & USD wanted the move but USD wasn't willing to move without the bulk of the NCC. The hockey schools were dead set against the move and they were led by UND and St. Cloud State. The hockey schools already had everything they wanted: Their #1 sport was already DI, and DII for everything else allowed them keep the budgets down. The actions of UNC, NDSU & SDSU threatened to(and did) upset their happy little apple carts. Their response was to do everything within their power to cause the xDSU's move to fail. UND and USD only decided to move when it was clear the xDSU's move had been a success and the UxDs were about to be completely marginalized in the region.



As for the Montanas' and the Big Sky's view, it's complicated. I can't speak much about the Dakota schools in the late 70's. I do know there were discussions at NDSU about moving up at the time, but obviously a decision was made to stay in DII. From one side I've heard that the Monantas and Big Sky asked NDSU, and NDSU said no. And from a different group I've heard that NDSU quietly asked the Big Sky for support back then, but the Big Sky said no. I don't know who to believe.

Things I do know:

1. There was significant support to add NDSU & SDSU to the Big Sky back around 2005. A majority of Big Sky schools and Fullerton were all for the additions. But it wasn't unanimous and that was a big deal at the time. The conference decided that any addition needed the support of absolutely everyone, and the xDSUs didn't have it. UNC was chosen because, while nobody loved them, nobody hated them either. Exactly which schools were opposed to the xDSUs depends on who you ask. Some say one or both of the Montanas, while others say the Montanas were the big pushers of the xDSUs. Safe money is on Sac St and/or Port St, but only the people involved know for certain.

2. By 2010, the Big Sky presidents knew they had made a mistake by not listening to Fullerton and by not adding the xDSUs back in 2005. So when Fullerton came to them with a plan to get the xDSUs by forming an FCS super-conference, they were ready to jump on board. (remember that this was the period where everyone was certain the 6 BCS conferences were about to realign into four 16-team super-conferences) Fullerton's plan was to get the xDSUs by destroying the Summit and then crippling the MVFC. (I sometimes think NoDak is somehow linked to Fullerton or UND admin of this period because this is when he started going on and on about the "Slummit" and its (not so)imminent demise.)

To destroy the Summit, Fullerton would take a current member(SUU) and then take both of the expansion candidates(UxDs). This would put the Summit in a precarious position with no quick replacements. Then all that would be needed would be the Horizon grabbing Oakland and maybe IUPUI and/or IPFW, and maybe the Southland grabbing ORU. At that point, the Big Sky would become appealing enough for the xDSU's to jump ship and build the Big Sky into a super conference of 16-teams for football and 14-teams for everything else. The end result would be complete Big Sky FCS dominance west of the Mississippi River. The Big Sky schools jumped on board with this plan, but it all fell apart when USD flipped back to the Summit/MVFC and the Horizon expansion happened slowly enough for the Summit to backfill with UNO & Denver.

3. With the super-conference plan blowing up in his face, Fullerton tried one last shot with the hybrid WAC/Big Sky FBS/FCS conference which is what NoDak has been pushing versions of on here and everywhere else(another reason why I wonder if he has some connection to Fullerton.) But with the failure of the previous plan causing all sorts of scheduling and travel budget nightmares, the Big Sky presidents weren't interested at all and Fullerton shuffled off into retirement.


And that leads us to where we are. UND was a remnant of a failed experiment and everyone was happy to see them go to the Summit with the rest of the Dakota schools where they've always belonged. The grand master plan is dead and gone, even if one person won't let it go. And the lesson to be learned is that nine times out of ten, a conference will do the bare minimum to get what they feel they need. And that one time out of ten that they don't, ends up being a cautionary tale(Big Sky 2012) as often as it's a success(Big East split or MWC creation). University presidents tend to be very conservative when it comes to athletics(not speaking politically, of course). Most don't understand how they work, so they play it safe. And even if 20-30% of presidents are willing to take risks, that isn't enough for the big conference moves some on here like to propose. The likelihood of a conference realignment scenario is inversely proportional to the number of moves, and it's an exponential relationship.



Sorry for the length.

As expected, you give the NDSU board perspective, not an AD or President one with the real facts.

But at least you partially acknowledge Montana interest in the NoDaks, which other posters here say is ridiculous.

(07-10-2017 09:46 PM)NoDak Wrote:  As expected, you give the NDSU board perspective, not an AD or President one with the real facts.

Please tell me what Cruzado and what the yet to be determined UM president want. Real facts only.

D2 and lower levels have money drying up for sports to be at that level. The money is in D1. That is why you are having schools dropping sports or closing down. That is why schools want to be in D1 for all sports. Even though schools back then when the Dakotas moved up think staying where they are at, they would be okay. But now, the major donors and big money are going to D1 schools. There are schools at the D2 levels are getting large donations which tells you that they could be moving to D1 in a few years. Should a northern plains conference should be moving up as a whole now? Sure, it could help fill in spots. More Colorado, Montana, Dakotas, Nebraska, Minnesota, Iowa, Kansas and Missouri schools to D1 could help save money even for schools like Minnesota. Now, the mind set about worry of adding more mouths to feed to the full blown that D1 schools might be forced to pay the players as full time employees if they lose in courts. If it hits D1 schools? It could go all the way down to the Junior College levels.

(07-10-2017 10:09 PM)NoQuestion Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 09:46 PM)NoDak Wrote:  As expected, you give the NDSU board perspective, not an AD or President one with the real facts.

Please tell me what Cruzado and what the yet to be determined UM president want. Real facts only.

They want to be associated with the similar or better academics and depth of programs, with research, with med schools, with law schools, with grad school numbers, with real residential campuses, with similar financial capability, and with similar political influence in their states or neighboring ones. That effectively eliminates all the Big Sky except idaho and UND. From a Montana perspective, the western rump of the Summit is ideal with which to start a Northern Tier consortium of research universities. No offense to Weber St, or Idaho St, or N Colorado, but they just don't measure up to the Montanas. Former conference mate Nevada is already too high up mostly because of athletic expenditures of its conference. Denver fits even though it doesn't have football and is private.

Presidents go to athletic conference meetings twice a year. A research U President doesn't want to waste his time with a teacher college president, as their goals and needs aren't nearly the same, but takes delight in talking with a peer school president who may have already accomplished a similar objective to what the President is facing. IN short, it's an elevated LinkedIn session that has some athletic talk.

(07-10-2017 11:22 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 10:09 PM)NoQuestion Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 09:46 PM)NoDak Wrote:  As expected, you give the NDSU board perspective, not an AD or President one with the real facts.

Please tell me what Cruzado and what the yet to be determined UM president want. Real facts only.

They want to be associated with the similar or better academics and depth of programs, with research, with med schools, with law schools, with grad school numbers, with real residential campuses, with similar financial capability, and with similar political influence in their states or neighboring ones. That effectively eliminates all the Big Sky except idaho and UND. From a Montana perspective, the western rump of the Summit is ideal with which to start a Northern Tier consortium of research universities. No offense to Weber St, or Idaho St, or N Colorado, but they just don't measure up to the Montanas. Former conference mate Nevada is already too high up mostly because of athletic expenditures of its conference. Denver fits even though it doesn't have football and is private.

I've never heard Cruzado or the unnamed UM President mention any of that. Didn't see any of that in the university or athletic strategic plan. You give the perspective of a UND fan who wants FBS and has absolutely zero real facts.

(07-10-2017 11:41 PM)NoQuestion Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 11:22 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 10:09 PM)NoQuestion Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 09:46 PM)NoDak Wrote:  As expected, you give the NDSU board perspective, not an AD or President one with the real facts.

Please tell me what Cruzado and what the yet to be determined UM president want. Real facts only.

They want to be associated with the similar or better academics and depth of programs, with research, with med schools, with law schools, with grad school numbers, with real residential campuses, with similar financial capability, and with similar political influence in their states or neighboring ones. That effectively eliminates all the Big Sky except idaho and UND. From a Montana perspective, the western rump of the Summit is ideal with which to start a Northern Tier consortium of research universities. No offense to Weber St, or Idaho St, or N Colorado, but they just don't measure up to the Montanas. Former conference mate Nevada is already too high up mostly because of athletic expenditures of its conference. Denver fits even though it doesn't have football and is private.

I've never heard Cruzado or the unnamed UM President mention any of that. Didn't see any of that in the university or athletic strategic plan. You give the perspective of a UND fan who wants FBS and has absolutely zero real facts.

You don't seem familiar with conference realignment politics at all. Some things are best left unsaid by Presidents, as they would infuriate the masses.

The Weber St and the SUU Presidents have said there is coming a break off of the Big Sky research schools. But they are totally discounted here because certain posters don't want to hear it.

(07-10-2017 11:45 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 11:41 PM)NoQuestion Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 11:22 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 10:09 PM)NoQuestion Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 09:46 PM)NoDak Wrote:  As expected, you give the NDSU board perspective, not an AD or President one with the real facts.

Please tell me what Cruzado and what the yet to be determined UM president want. Real facts only.

They want to be associated with the similar or better academics and depth of programs, with research, with med schools, with law schools, with grad school numbers, with real residential campuses, with similar financial capability, and with similar political influence in their states or neighboring ones. That effectively eliminates all the Big Sky except idaho and UND. From a Montana perspective, the western rump of the Summit is ideal with which to start a Northern Tier consortium of research universities. No offense to Weber St, or Idaho St, or N Colorado, but they just don't measure up to the Montanas. Former conference mate Nevada is already too high up mostly because of athletic expenditures of its conference. Denver fits even though it doesn't have football and is private.

I've never heard Cruzado or the unnamed UM President mention any of that. Didn't see any of that in the university or athletic strategic plan. You give the perspective of a UND fan who wants FBS and has absolutely zero real facts.

You don't seem familiar with conference realignment politics at all. Some things are best left unsaid by Presidents, as they would infuriate the masses.

The Weber St and the SUU Presidents have said there is coming a break off of the Big Sky research schools. But they are totally discounted here because certain posters don't want to hear it.

If it was unsaid. How do you know what was said? A link to those comments would be handy in figuring out the context.

(07-10-2017 05:10 PM)NoDak Wrote:  

(07-10-2017 05:06 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Where do you get this "the Montana's wanted" BS? Post a link to back this outrageous claim up.

More delusionals show up.

The Grand Forks Herald was not on the Internet in the 1970's and 1990'S. Most of their microfilm records were destroyed in a fire that ravaged downtown Grand Forks in the aftermath of the flood.

Just have to take the the word of a 13 year old that heard from a UND AD and read it in the paper too.

Show me records where the Montana schools opposed any Dakota to get in the Big Sky. That is a more reasonable demand. But that can't be found but you insist it's ridiculous. Clueless to regional thought.

I don't have to provide any evidence. I am not making any claim. I am demanding you provide evidence for statements that you alone make and which no other human, as far as can be determined, has memory.

What you have done is called an Intentional Logical Fallacy. Your request for me to prove your claim false falls under the category of a double standard of evidential morals - that is when you require your challenger to meet a higher standard of evidence than you yourself provide.

What you have given can best be described as hearsay. Worse from a child who's memory was almost certainly faulty (which is not an insult, but the norm for childhood memories -- we remember things from that age more chemically than more recent memories, so that the emotions are often more accurate than the account of events).

In short you offer no evidence, and your testimony is at best unreliable, at worst influenced by your lifelong developed prejudices.

Quote: UNC had always been a cultural and geographic outlier in the NCC. The Big Sky was much more attractive to them, but an invite was not imminent. The thing that pushed them over the edge was a promised donation of $1M/year for several years by a prominent Colorado business family. (Think it was Coors, but could be wrong.) That money gave them the confidence to make the move all on their own. (The money never came BTW, which is a big reason UNC basically face planted during their initial DI years.) As soon as the moratorium expired, they made their move.

I believe the promised and never delivered donation was made by the Monfort brothers, owners of the Rockies. They are based in Greeley and that type of failure to deliver the promised donation sounds just like something they would do.

(06-23-2017 01:11 AM)NoDak Wrote:  By going FBS, the Dakotas and Montana show their no longer backwater regions that aren't with the times, like the Sacramento region, which cow tows miserably to the Bay Area. The Dakotas are growing for the first time in a century, their incomes have expanded more than other states this century, and they want more entertainment and other amenities that most of the US has.

IT makes it hard to take you seriously when you try to argue that the DAkotas are "with the times", compared to backwater regions like --Sacramento. I understand that shale oil has been a boon to the Dakotas, and I'm very happy for y'all. But when you try to turn your nose up at podunk backwater Big Sky towns like Sacramento, Portland, and even Ogden (metro area population 500,000) it's just laughable.

(06-23-2017 07:25 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The NoDaks had entertained DI for 40 years as DII teams. The Big Sky blocked us, other than the Montanas and UNI left us for greener pastures of DI, and none of the other Midcontinent teams wanted us either. It wasn't by choice that we were consigned to DII.

Nobody blocked you. For most of that time, independents could transitioin to Division I. "It wasn't by choice that we were consigned to DII." Yeah, you just weren't willing to do anything to get into D-I. That's a you problem.

(07-10-2017 11:22 PM)NoDak Wrote:  They want to be associated with the similar or better academics and depth of programs, with research, with med schools, with law schools, with grad school numbers, with real residential campuses, with similar financial capability, and with similar political influence in their states or neighboring ones. That effectively eliminates all the Big Sky except idaho and UND. From a Montana perspective, the western rump of the Summit is ideal with which to start a Northern Tier consortium of research universities. No offense to Weber St, or Idaho St, or N Colorado, but they just don't measure up to the Montanas. Former conference mate Nevada is already too high up mostly because of athletic expenditures of its conference. Denver fits even though it doesn't have football and is private.

Presidents go to athletic conference meetings twice a year. A research U President doesn't want to waste his time with a teacher college president, as their goals and needs aren't nearly the same, but takes delight in talking with a peer school president who may have already accomplished a similar objective to what the President is facing. IN short, it's an elevated LinkedIn session that has some athletic talk.

This actually makes a ton of sense. There is definitely an argument based on academic prestige and profile to group the northern-border flagships-and-landgrants together, and Denver (USNWR #86) and UMKC (#210) is a valuable addition on that score. (UNO lags, but people have heard of Omaha).

But you have shredded any credibilty you may have had guaranteeing an FBS WAC which blew up in your face, and declaring as fact the Montana schools' unquenchable thirst to be associated with UND. That claim hasn't been supported by anything the Montanas have ever said or done, AFAIK.

And somewhere in this thread I think you said that UND went D-I with a promise of a spot in the Big Sky. Wikipedia says UND started D-I in the Great West.

(07-10-2017 09:19 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  They rewarded the XDSUs with adding South Dakota and now with North Dakota.

Absolutely. And especially in the recent case of taking UND to go to 11, which probably means two Dakota away trips for some subset of non-Dakota MVFC schools every year. They've clearly seen the value in the Dakota flagships' financial commitment to athletics and particularly football.

(07-10-2017 09:31 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:  A slight expansion/clarification about UNC: ...

Member since 2014 ...... 15 posts. Damned. Shame.

(07-10-2017 09:31 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:  UNC had always been a cultural and geographic outlier in the NCC. The Big Sky was much more attractive to them, but an invite was not imminent.

Interesting to look at the history. UNC was part of the RMAC conference for many decades ... and that conference had a much higher profile of membership in its earlier years, up to the late 1930's. Montana St was still a member through the late 1950's.

The Big Sky was founded with ID, ID St, MT, MT St, Weber, and Gonzaga (non-football), with Boise and NAU joining a few years later (and Nevada few years after that). UNC would've been ripe for the picking, from day one, if the Big Sky had wanted to include them. Wonder why they weren't included from the start? (honest question)

UNC finally left the RMAC after massive changes in membership in the early 1970's, went independent for a few years, and then joined the NCC in the late 1970's. Arguable, UNC has had its best athletic success in the NCC, winning two national DII football titles in the 1990's. It hasn't really done jack in the Big Sky, since moving up, I don't believe.

(07-11-2017 08:43 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  Nobody blocked you. For most of that time, independents could transitioin to Division I. "It wasn't by choice that we were consigned to DII." Yeah, you just weren't willing to do anything to get into D-I. That's a you problem.

As others have mentioned, UND was very, very content with being a national power in DI (men's ice) hockey, while being in the DII NCC for everything else. Annual football game against NDSU, other sports played NDSU, and all bus trips to other upper midwest schools.

Then particularly in the 90's and early 2000's, UND became a national power in DII football, winning title in 2001 and runner up in 2003. They had overtaken NDSU in football, by that time. Attendance at the Fargodome for games outside the UND game wasn't great. That was the absolute peak, for UND fans. And many viewed NDSU wanting to move to DI as "running away".

Only when NDSU's move to DI revitalized the football program, bringing attendance soaring, finding success in the Great West conference, even being ranked #1 in DI-AA for most of 2007 (though ineligible for playoffs), after a fantastic 2006 season where the new Fargodome attendance record was set for the conference winning game over SDSU, did UND finally realize "wow ... this is for real ...", and decide to start taking a look at moving themselves.

(07-11-2017 08:43 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  This actually makes a ton of sense. There is definitely an argument based on academic prestige and profile to group the northern-border flagships-and-landgrants together, and Denver (USNWR #86) and UMKC (#210) is a valuable addition on that score. (UNO lags, but people have heard of Omaha).

Like I said to NoDak, this probably would've happened decades ago if NDSU and UND were on the other side of North Dakota (which is the Mountain timezone). The Great Plains is a massive divide of the country. Fargo and Grand Forks are practically in Minnesota, which is where many of their students and athletes come from (in addition to the Dakotas and Wisconsin, among other places).

If the Dakota and Montana flagships could've gotten together with Wyoming, Colorado St, Idaho, Boise, from much earlier on, perhaps around the 1960's or 1970's ... who knows. That's what would've needed to happen ... but it never worked out that way, partly due to that massive divide the splits the country in the middle. Another interesting thing would've been if N Dak, S Dak, and Montana would've each stuck with a single public flagship for the state, putting the agriculture college at the U of ____ instead of making a separate school ... that would've been interesting to see where those schools would've ended up. Again, maybe with Wyoming. But alas, did not happen.