A lot of great things happening in Toledo, huge Jeep expansion, downtown undergoing a huge renaissance, and now this project.

http://www.toledoblade.com/local/2017/06...oledo.html

Maybe. Not to over estimate it or look too eeorish (and speaking from a non-expert position), I'm thinking this probably more a benefit to the county, and to Wood.

Toledo benefits more from salaries in the $40,000 I'd guess, as these are more likely to stay within city confines. With reciprocity, Toledo gains no new income tax base. I'll wager not 30% of those people remain in Toledo and a not noticeable amount of their income gets spent here. The property tax base no doubt was negotiated away in order to get a Cleveland company to settle here. I don't imagine there's much savings bringing the waste here versus Cleveland for processing and redelivery or that they couldn't have gotten concession there, if the business was wanted. As these projects usually have, I'll wait for the other shoe, the environmental and noise impact.... Unlikely anyone, certainly no local politician will want to look at this too closely. It's great that they found use for that land, now hopefully it won't make us all miserable and someone will do something about those trucks blowing through lights at the Front-280 interchanges before people start dying.

Downtown: Promedica and Hensville are non-profit so their land purchases actually have some up in arms; illegal competition and no added tax base. I think if it becomes a nexus for synergy, those people will change their tune but on the surface, they have a good point. A couple other new companies have chosen to move in but other than restaurants, I'm not aware of any start-ups or start-up generators, located downtown? Manor Care seems in trouble, lost that beautiful bldg. on 17th... so, ups and downs. As the Mercy Health network grows, I think downtown will grow but still prefer to look for non service industry business start-ups as a measure of economic turn-around.

I saw some "ann arborish" renovations going on in the near Vistula neighborhood, hopefully that can spread but ultimately it has the massive government housing in the way. It would be a real nice location for a city park or revenue generation to encourage that renovation. But relocating government housing will have the socialists/typical administrative voter base in an uproar.

Industrial: I believe there's also another planned expansion at the Transmission plant. I'm not sure if there's any revenue sharing, but this and Jeep are Washington Local. Toledo tax base might benefit but Toledo schools, no? New Dana facility at the old Jeep,and looks to be some more things there, that benefits all.

Hopefully the Old Jeep has legs but ultimately city climate will be determined by people working, even if it's lower income jobs. 130 $90,000 jobs might not be the boon at all and often it seems as if those construction jobs are people coming in from out-of-town and out-of-state. Was THAT negotiated by Kaptur? We'll probably never know.

Better than it was but not sure it's all that. When I see things that can grow and employ the post secondary educated: non-service industry start-ups, even small ones, that's when I see a corner being turned.

Don't underestimate the impact of new businesses. The economic growth will be exponential. Revenues won't be x number of dollars per job, it will be x to the nth. You probably haven't been by the old Jeep site lately, but Dana and another business are just about done. I think you're way off on the wages of the workers at the new iron/steel factory too. Cliffs is for real and this is a done deal. No way anyone will work in that place for 40k. Try 80k and you'd be closer. Those guys would basically all be welders and welders can make 6 figures if they want. BTW there is no reciprocity. If you work in Toledo, 100% of the city tax goes to Toledo. Right now, Rossford is trying to double the income tax for people who live in Rossford but work outside of Rossford.
It's pretty cool watching the city re-gentrify with so much new housing downtown. The other day there was a helicopter dropping new air conditioning units on the roof of the Fiberglass Tower so it shouldn't be long before a whole bunch of new residents are living downtown. Before long there might be enough demand that old housing stock will be cleared and replaced by 21st century houses.

- I stated the development at the old Jeep.
- I stated my opinion Toledo would benefit more if the salaries were in the $40,000 range, didn't see a reason to repeat what the article clearly stated, salaries averaging in the $90k. At the higher level, I feel that few of those people will choose to live in the city. Certainly the area will benefit, I was speculating the effects on Toledo and that neighborhood proper.
- Did reciprocity end? If you live in a lower local tax but work in the city, you used to get the difference refunded. Do I have that wrong?

Old Housing Stock: which areas are you thinking? The attraction to anything surrounding downtown seems to be renovation, not replacement. Those are some fairly sizable houses with character. Even with some of the smaller houses, go to the Tremont area of Cleveland, overlooking the old industrial valley and you'll see some amazing renovations of older housing.

There will be new housing in the "marina district," next to prometrocal park but it looks condo or townhouse, with over half the units' view of the river and downtown blocked by the other half. I really don't expect that to be successful as designed nor market rate. I think Rossford, relative to Eastside has the better near river development opportunities. Too bad they put that monstrosity of a design in for the Casino.

What's it been, maybe a decade and a half ago when that old Seagate Hotel went for $250,000 in auction? Barely over a half mil a few year's ago. What an opportunity missed to have the best 360 high rise townhouse in the city, turning the remainder into either functional space for the convention center or other. I coulda lived like a Trump, sigh.

Be interested on statements from the University if there is potential benefit there?

Hopefully these links are more informative than duh'local's on-line.



Toledo's "unique" positioning and advantages of the product.
Midwest's first-ever plant producing hot briquetted iron

The Product
Hot Briquetted Iron (HBI) Advantages:

Plant Design
State of the Art

Environmental impact(pollutants, noise, flora, fauna, by-products...) of the HBI production process is harder for me to find. HBI seems beneficial to the production of steel, but that process occurs elsewhere than Toledo.

(06-17-2017 12:45 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  Be interested on statements from the University if there is potential benefit there?

Hopefully these links are more informative than duh'local's on-line.



Toledo's "unique" positioning and advantages of the product.
Midwest's first-ever plant producing hot briquetted iron

The Product
Hot Briquetted Iron (HBI) Advantages:

Plant Design
State of the Art

Environmental impact(pollutants, noise, flora, fauna, by-products...) of the HBI production process is harder for me to find. HBI seems beneficial to the production of steel, but that process occurs elsewhere than Toledo.

I wondered immediately about environmental impact.

Steel: just occurred to me, wasn't the dude tossed out of the Cavs-Warriers game a Steel CEO in Cleveland? Same people?

(06-17-2017 01:14 PM)Boca Rocket Wrote:  I wondered immediately about environmental impact.

I'm still reading the "state of the art" article and having difficulty finding articles that separate the environmental impacts of the briquette manufacture from the impacts of the steal production (which won't be here but hey, maybe in the future).

and there's the NIMBY aspect: dust, noise, lights.... So far, I've not found one of these plants in what would be described as a "neighborhood environment."

I'm also not sure Eastside would care, this is kind of what made it unique in the day. Noise carries over water, so that will affect North End out to the Point. But again, I think they get a certain amount of that from what goes on already.

Dust and lights more an issue of the immediate area. Flora and Fauna? Not much in the immediate area, I suppose biggest affect will be water use, cooling and disposal. Could be what the tower is for?


That politician's comment about the tower made him sound (to me) like a rube, but I'll put that to excitement and I'll admit, the view of the Refineries from top the I-280 bridge look like Oz, so I'm subject to rubeness myself.

As recently as 2006,there were only about 20 of these HBI plants worldwide, none in the US. Availability of cheaper shale gas and high automation (hence low employment numbers) are behind the investments. I'm still not clear the advantage of forming the iron into briquettes other than transportation.

There have been pollution issues.

Noise and Light Pollution

Quote:Jeff Howard bought his house on Pinehurst 3 1/2 years ago., and said property values in the area have dropped since then.

The father of two sometimes wears ear plugs to bed to drown out the industrial hum when he sleeps. He thinks the company hasn't done enough to block out the noise, and doubted its resolve to fix the problem.

Invasive Dust

Prevailing winds and the River will mostly I think channel the noise and dust into North End, the Point, parts of Oregon and out over the Bay and lake with occasional blow back up river. Rivers channel more than water. They'll keep dust and noise in a focused manner, close to ground. Much like I've discussed when I disputed most positions on changing Secor, because of it's location in residential this also needs impact simulation as well as impact on the lake.

For this few jobs? No study of economic impact to the communities affected or even Toledo as a whole? I'm sure some hands got well greased, it's well intended by Cliffs but I'd be interested to know which communities "lost" and why this process wasn't conducted in the open.

If reciprocity ended, it did so in the last four years and did so quietly.

If you work in Toledo you pay Toledo tax regardless of where you live. You are also liable for taxes in the city where you live. Your city of residence MAY give you credit for the tax you paid to Toledo, but that is up to each city. Some cities give 100% credit some 0% credit. In any case, Toledo does not share the taxes they collect from those who work in the city with the city where the worker lives. There has not been reciprocity for many many years - if you work in Toledo they keep it all.

From an Intuit site

Quote:However the reciprocity agreement does not apply to local city (Toledo) taxes. You are not required to file a local city return, but you are also not entitled to a refund of the city withholding, unless there was an error in the amount. But, Michigan will give you credit for that on the state return,

Huh? Michigan will deduct the entire Toledo City tax back off their tax or it's a deduction from income?

Bean-Counter?

Edit: found confirmation elsewhere. So Marcy Kaptur and Kasich just found 130 jobs for Michigan, lol. Living in Lost Peninsula saves on average over $2000 per year? I'd be getting a shack in Blissfield. Pretty sure Mi taxes > Ohio but still be ahead quite a bit, no?

(06-17-2017 06:12 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  - I stated my opinion Toledo would benefit more if the salaries were in the $40,000 range, didn't see a reason to repeat what the article clearly stated, salaries averaging in the $90k. At the higher level, I feel that few of those people will choose to live in the city.

I don't think it benefits the city to economically deprive people to the point that they have no choice but to live in Toledo. It would be better to make Toledo the type of city that people who earn higher salaries want to live in.

Quote:Old Housing Stock: which areas are you thinking? The attraction to anything surrounding downtown seems to be renovation, not replacement.

Some neighborhoods are historic and should be maintained as is. Old West End, Westmoreland etc. add character to the city as do other enclaves. A demographic analysis should be done across the city and neighborhoods with the most negative metrics targeted for demolition and restructured for new development. Start with a blank slate. The expressway might currently transect a residential neighborhood. Maybe it would be better for comercial/industrial zones to edge the freeway with residential further in. Just spitballing a little.

Quote:There will be new housing in the "marina district," next to prometrocal park but it looks condo or townhouse, with over half the units' view of the river and downtown blocked by the other half. I really don't expect that to be successful as designed nor market rate. I think Rossford, relative to Eastside has the better near river development opportunities. Too bad they put that monstrosity of a design in for the Casino.

The reason the Marina district hasn't been developed is because the surrounding neighborhood is full of broke people with no disposable income. Maybe there's about to be some people with money willing to locate there. One thing I'd like to see is a marina store be located on the river right at the base of the M L K bridge. That way boats could fuel up after coming into downtown to catch a ball game, eat at a restaurant, visit the Great Lakes Museum, etc. The only way it works though is to have a gas station on the other side accessible from Cherry/Main Street. BTW Rossford has some nice projects being developed around the casino. That wouldn't have been my choice for its location but that ship has sailed. I do think they should install docks so boaters could sail up.

(06-20-2017 07:50 PM)RocketJeff Wrote:  

(06-17-2017 06:12 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  - I stated my opinion Toledo would benefit more if the salaries were in the $40,000 range, didn't see a reason to repeat what the article clearly stated, salaries averaging in the $90k. At the higher level, I feel that few of those people will choose to live in the city.

I don't think it benefits the city to economically deprive people to the point that they have no choice but to live in Toledo. It would be better to make Toledo the type of city that people who earn higher salaries want to live in.

It would be even better if people who earn a higher level of income would want to live here as it is but neither of those conjectures has anything to do with the balance of benefit versus intrusion this plant would provide, I'm not sure why you make that point? In that neighborhood, $40,000 is living pretty high. With that low an employment, not even colateral services are likely to locate there as would be seen if the land was used to bring in a higher employment, even at half the salary. Once the plant is in, if it will not ever be a place that will improve employment in that neighborhood or any neighborhood of Toledo, is it useful? That was my only point.

This is the only HBI plant I've found, that would be situated in an urban environment. Similar plants situated further from housing have caused noise and dust pollutions in those communities, I'd expect the problems to be considerably more damaging in this one.

The people in that neighborhood and across the river will be the ones paying for the increased health, house and auto maintenance due to the plant dust, noise and light not to mention the more frequent round the clock train noise. Too much for our politicians to consider they should find SOME benefit before making deals for such a project.

Great tech, great get, perhaps unfortunately, the wrong place. Great project maybe for the Northland Steel area. The pellets will still be coming into the docks and that's new business too.

(06-20-2017 07:50 PM)RocketJeff Wrote:  

(06-17-2017 06:12 AM)eastisbest Wrote:  Old Housing Stock: which areas are you thinking? The attraction to anything surrounding downtown seems to be renovation, not replacement.

Some neighborhoods are historic and should be maintained as is. Old West End, Westmoreland etc. add character to the city as do other enclaves. A demographic analysis should be done across the city and neighborhoods with the most negative metrics targeted for demolition and restructured for new development. Start with a blank slate. The expressway might currently transect a residential neighborhood. Maybe it would be better for comercial/industrial zones to edge the freeway with residential further in. Just spitballing a little. .

Sure. You were talking about downtown so I didn't make the connection. I can't think of any old housing left in the downtown area along the highway corridors that would bring enough land for commercial/industrial/entertainment. I think I'd prefer White collar anyhow . There's an area near the Anderson's. Any attempt to take that small neighborhood would probably be as successful as the attempt to clear near the Jeep plant. Likely Metroparks will do another landgrab to connect the new park near the high level to the park proposed along the river on the other side of 280.

(06-20-2017 07:50 PM)RocketJeff Wrote:  

Quote:There will be new housing in the "marina district," next to prometrocal park but it looks condo or townhouse,...Too bad they put that monstrosity of a design in for the Casino.

The reason the Marina district hasn't been developed is because the surrounding neighborhood is full of broke people with no disposable income. Maybe there's about to be some people with money willing to locate there. One thing I'd like to see is a marina store be located on the river right at the base of the M L K bridge. That way boats could fuel up after coming into downtown to catch a ball game, eat at a restaurant, visit the Great Lakes Museum, etc. The only way it works though is to have a gas station on the other side accessible from Cherry/Main Street. BTW Rossford has some nice projects being developed around the casino. That wouldn't have been my choice for its location but that ship has sailed. I do think they should install docks so boaters could sail up.

I think your Marina store would be a good fit by the old Coast Guard on the northend near the Cherry St. but I don't see it ever getting sustainable business in the short Summer. I've been in the museum. I honestly have no idea why anyone goes there. As above, the powers were informed chances of successful marina there were small. Lost Pennisula had just invested in added docking and it was much closer to the ultimate goal, the lake. Then they got the great idea to build pollution ponds and bigger ramps at Cullen. There was no need or demand for a marina to replace Harrison but they were determined to build their vision, without any support that there was actual need. The place looks empty and dilapidated already.

Casino: goes to my comment about it being ugly. Made NO use of the fact that it was river front, I have to believe that was intentional but can't fathom. Those that built it seemed to want it completely isolated so there was no entertainment competition as opposed to part of a bigger synergy. I don't think there will be any competition for those dollars in that development. Hotels?

The whole point of the Marina District was to put JOBS there so it wouldn't be surrounded by broke people. There were quite a few competing interests (not the Chinese) who wanted no part of that. They had this grand view of riverfront condos. Who would live there, with no jobs. As with the marina, they weren't listening. The public meetings were jokes. Now PromediParks is about to make the same mistake. The park will be a dump, within ten years.

(06-20-2017 09:58 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  I think your Marina store would be a good fit by the old Coast Guard on the northend near the Cherry St. but I don't see it ever getting sustainable business in the short Summer.

I was thinking the other side of river where the Sports Arena parking lot used to be would be better. I was thinking the BP station at Front and Main could relocate and build a carryout/carwash/gas station on the front with the marina on the back. Being a carryout-gas station makes it a business that could stay open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and the marina which would service boaters during the boating season. That's the only way I can see a downtown marina working. When I'm saying marina, I'm not talking about a place to keep your boat docked all season - just a place to pull up, refuel, maybe buy beer or ice or bait. There's other dock space to park a boat for a few hours while you take in a ballgame or visit a restaurant. Boaters further up river could stop there too on their way out to the lake.

(06-21-2017 06:42 PM)RocketJeff Wrote:  

(06-20-2017 09:58 PM)eastisbest Wrote:  I think your Marina store would be a good fit by the old Coast Guard on the northend near the Cherry St. but I don't see it ever getting sustainable business in the short Summer.

I was thinking the other side of river where the Sports Arena parking lot used to be would be better. I was thinking the BP station at Front and Main could relocate and build a carryout/carwash/gas station on the front with the marina on the back. Being a carryout-gas station makes it a business that could stay open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and the marina which would service boaters during the boating season. That's the only way I can see a downtown marina working. When I'm saying marina, I'm not talking about a place to keep your boat docked all season - just a place to pull up, refuel, maybe buy beer or ice or bait. There's other dock space to park a boat for a few hours while you take in a ballgame or visit a restaurant. Boaters further up river could stop there too on their way out to the lake.

Promedacondo's are going there. My guess, that's why Promedica so desperately wants Prometropark, to increase the real estate values of the lands sold to the condo developer and hope none of the people looking to purchase or lease, look out the back windows, lol.

Trust me, the powers that be are not thinking of practical needs or sustainable effort. They're thinking flipping real estate, cut and run.

There's one tail shaking this Marina District but it's at the azz end of three dogs; Port, County and City gov. Depending who is listened to, someone seems to have continually gotten in the way of the Chinese, but they also didn't listen to those making propositions before the Chinese made the purchase.

As they've designed promediplace, all economy flows downtown. Marina takes rare (for Eastside) developable property off the potential income tax base. It will not drop a red-cent into the Eastside neighborhoods. It will not create a single spin-off place of living wage employment for that community. It will not "connect" downtown let alone out-of-town income to the Eastside.

The plan promoters said a different thing out-loud but right on their poster they state this will increase "green space" for DOWNTOWN from 2% to 20%. I like the development downtown, it's nice, it's progressive but it neither helps the blue collar neighborhood in which it resides nor introduces white collar jobs into the neighborhood. As long as the connecting neighborhoods rot, rot will find it's way back to the center, the developer and hands washed will already have their money and be sitting in their Florida condos thinking of the chumps they took advantage.

Once reality hits that this was not designed in the least to 'reach into" the Eastside, I expect those condos to quickly become compounds. The people already feel "oppressed," they will not react well.

There is development that will obtain both goals, green space and reach into the Eastside with skilled, living wage employment but it would need the land that Promedica is using to increase its bottom line as well as the promedipark land. These issues were all discussed over a decade ago.