(06-15-2017 03:28 PM)quo vadis Wrote: Two takeaways:
(1) It looks like Louisville will lose their 2013 National Title. Hard to see how that can be kept if tournament wins have to be vacated, it is very unlikely that at least one ineligible player did not play in any tournament game that year.
(2) There is no way the AAC will benefit at all from this, it won't see any of the tournament credit money that UL forfeits.
Ironic, Louisville commits the crime and the AAC ends up getting punished the most financially.
AAC should easily be able to make that up and possibly more by the damages clause in the Conference contracts.
Louisville is no longer in the conferene. I doubt there is much that can be done with conference clauses when Louisville and the AAC officially split ways. Maybe there is such a clause in the split contract but does anyone really know? I doubt the legal costs will allow make up the 6 mill let alone any additional money.
(06-15-2017 05:01 PM)john01992 Wrote: So did they lose the title or not?
It hasn't been determined, because Louisville hasn't yet reported to the NCAA which players were involved in which games.
Seems silly, because the NCAA must already know who played, everyone can easily tell just by watching a video of the games. But that's where we are at in the process.
(06-15-2017 04:16 PM)_C2_ Wrote: I wish they'd just do that than do something as meaningless as vacating wins and titles. You can't scrap it and act like it didn't happen, at least to anyone with any memory.
Actually, you can do just that, and taking a title is the worst thing you can do to a program short of shutting it down, way worse than lost scholarships or future tournament bans, because titles are what you play for. The bigger the title, the worse the penalty, and this is the biggest title. And it will be much worse than the legacy hit USC took in 2004, because they still got to keep the AP title, which still counts for something in football. Louisville would be losing an official NCAA title.
When Ben Johnson was caught cheating at the 1988 Olympics, the Olympics made him give back his gold medal, and well, even though we all saw him win the race on TV, he's not a gold medal winner.
The same will happen to Louisville's legacy if the title is rescinded.
(This post was last modified: 06-15-2017 06:22 PM by quo vadis.)
(06-15-2017 05:01 PM)john01992 Wrote: So did they lose the title or not?
The fact that Louisville is countersuing trying to lessen their penalties leads me to believe that the National Championship title is in danger of being lost.
(06-15-2017 05:01 PM)john01992 Wrote: So did they lose the title or not?
The fact that Louisville is countersuing trying to lessen their penalties leads me to believe that the National Championship title is in danger of being lost.
I don't see any news organizations saying the NCAA has officially vacated the title. They all say "may", as in it is yet to be determined.
One thing that is clear is that the title will be vacated if any ineligible players played in any of the tournament games, not just the championship game:
"Further, if any of the student-athletes competed in the NCAA Division I Men's Basketball Championships at any time they were ineligible, the institution's participation in the championships shall be
vacated."
But as of yet, that determination hasn't been made.
(06-15-2017 12:56 PM)msm96wolf Wrote: Question, does the stripping of wins vacate conference Tournament Credits? Logically, you think it should but NCAA and logic rarely go together. Also, it appears if it does strip the Tourney Credits. Those credits belong to the AAC not the ACC. So the AAC gets screwed and Louisville still reaps the money from the ACC. Does anyone know the precident or answer about the credits when wins are stripped/vacated?
I was wondering the same thing. They joined the ACC in 2014, so that's 3 years of AAC money. Do they take it from UConn, USF and Cincinnati? Penalties talked about the ACC withholding it and forfeiting it to the NCAA.
Maybe that's the NCAA's way of penalizing the AAC for a penalty against a P5 school.
(06-15-2017 03:28 PM)quo vadis Wrote: Two takeaways:
(1) It looks like Louisville will lose their 2013 National Title. Hard to see how that can be kept if tournament wins have to be vacated, it is very unlikely that at least one ineligible player did not play in any tournament game that year.
(2) There is no way the AAC will benefit at all from this, it won't see any of the tournament credit money that UL forfeits.
Seems pretty clear that the 2013 title gets forfeited. There have been a lot of runnerups, but I don't think a champion has ever had to vacate a title. UNC should have 2005 and 2009 stripped, but that will never happen.
(06-15-2017 12:56 PM)msm96wolf Wrote: Question, does the stripping of wins vacate conference Tournament Credits? Logically, you think it should but NCAA and logic rarely go together. Also, it appears if it does strip the Tourney Credits. Those credits belong to the AAC not the ACC. So the AAC gets screwed and Louisville still reaps the money from the ACC. Does anyone know the precident or answer about the credits when wins are stripped/vacated?
if it was done properly (it is the NCAA so that is in question) the money would be distributed to the conference, the conference would distribute it how they were going to and then Louisville would pay the NCAA back the part that represents their credits amount
so for the AAC that would mean they get the money, split it up to their members (with some getting more because of being there during the BE years) and then Louisville would pay back the NCAA the amount equal to their credits
but knowing the NCAA it might be how you think it could be and that is the NCAA just mails a smaller check and it is up to the conference to figure it out
and it looks like they will lose the 6 years that come from 2015 so that means they will lose some while in the ACC
Six years of conference tourney revenue from Louisville could mean several hundred thousands of dollars (my cursory math is estimating $400-600K) if this article from Forbes is to be believed.
I wish they'd just do that than do something as meaningless as vacating wins and titles. You can't scrap it and act like it didn't happen, at least to anyone with any memory.
I think vacating wins is ridiculous. It doesn't accomplish anything but mess up record books. But titles are important. If you cheat to get it, you didn't earn it.
(06-15-2017 02:44 PM)stever20 Wrote: the penalty is only for the 2015 season for the ACC. They had 4 units that year, so roughly a million dollars payable for after the 2016-21 seasons.
S20,
Three questions if you know the answer
1. Does 2015 equates to the 2014/15 season?
2. If answer one is yes, then does 2012, 2013 and 2014 come from the AAC's credits?
3. If answer two is yes, do you know approximate the hit to the AAC?
1- yes
2- yes
3- looks like
2014 3 units
2013 5 units
2012 5 units
so payable would be
2018(12-17 seasons) 13 units
2019(13-18 seasons) 8 units
2020(14-19 seasons) 3 units
so a total of 24 units- or about 6 million dollars.
Thanks, I am not sure our AAC breathen are quite understanding they are receiving the worst of the Louisville punishment which is kindo of ironic as they celebrate.
Doom and gloom for the AAC...I see you are concerned for us. Thanks, I think?
(06-15-2017 03:28 PM)quo vadis Wrote: Two takeaways:
(1) It looks like Louisville will lose their 2013 National Title. Hard to see how that can be kept if tournament wins have to be vacated, it is very unlikely that at least one ineligible player did not play in any tournament game that year.
(2) There is no way the AAC will benefit at all from this, it won't see any of the tournament credit money that UL forfeits.
Ironic, Louisville commits the crime and the AAC ends up getting punished the most financially.
Actually, the ACC is an equal revenue sharing conference. The NCAA Credits precisely work that way in the ACC, the money is divided up among the 15 schools. It has how the ACC has operated since day one. First link I found, http://www.technicianonline.com/sports/a...d16d5.html didn't really want to to an extensive google, you are welcome too.
but that article does not address at all what happens if a team is penalized by the NCAA
most conference bylaws have provisions for that
while one could argue that since Louisville cheated to get some of those players and thus won and earned money they were not entitled to that the conference as a whole really should not have been entitled to that money
but one can also argue that Louisville cheating and getting caught while other conference members are either not cheating or are better at not getting caught cheating is in fact detrimental to conference members that do not cheat because they are losing conference games to a team that cheated to get players and wins
so there should be some financial penalty to Louisville for doing so
if the conference was set to make $2.5 million per school or $37,500,00 total for 15 teams and Louisville brought in $5 million of that
so then you take $37.5 million minus the $5 million forfeited and get $32.5 million and you still divide that by 15 teams to get $2,166,666 per team then Louisville felt a loss of $333,333, but so did every other team in the conference
so how exactly is that really fair to the other members of the conference that did nothing wrong and that played by the rules and lost games to a team that was cheating
so if you take the $32,500,000 and divide by 14 then you get $2,321,428 and Louisville gets nothing so there is some damages/penalty that others are not feeling
but again you can make the argument that if Louisville was not cheating perhaps some other conference member might have made the tournament and thus that individual program or a couple of programs were impacted as well
or if Louisville had played by the rules and still was just as successful then everyone in the conference would be getting $2.5 million instead of $2,321,428 million
so should Louisville have to suffer the penalty of making everyone in the conference "whole" relative to what the earnings would be if they had the same success without the cheating
and I think one can make the argument that they should be required to do so and thus they should have $5 million held back from their total conference earnings and distributed to the rest of the conference equally
the article you linked discusses nothing about cheating or NCAA infractions or the conference dealings with that
TR,
The ACC will now only get around ~27 mill instead of ~28 mill which is ~1.8 million per team in the ACC with the loss of the 4 credits. Worst case for Louisville is they still get 800k with the Equal Revenue Distribution and have the other 1 Million of there split among 14 teams so they only get 800K of the credits from the NCAA. That is how equal revenue distribution works.
Again, thanks to S20 for providing the credit info.
Louisville's issue aren't really a big deal for the ACC right msmwolf? Thanks for the concern you've shown for your "AAC Brethren". You've made several posts across two boards making sure we all understand that Louisville's loss is no biggie, except to the AAC of course.
(This post was last modified: 06-16-2017 06:02 AM by billybobby777.)
No one has come out yet listing any players that might have been recruited and actually signed by Louisville Yet . You only heard about ones that went elsewhere. And guys that already were signed before, or weren't involved Do Not Count.
(06-15-2017 02:44 PM)stever20 Wrote: the penalty is only for the 2015 season for the ACC. They had 4 units that year, so roughly a million dollars payable for after the 2016-21 seasons.
S20,
Three questions if you know the answer
1. Does 2015 equates to the 2014/15 season?
2. If answer one is yes, then does 2012, 2013 and 2014 come from the AAC's credits?
3. If answer two is yes, do you know approximate the hit to the AAC?
1- yes
2- yes
3- looks like
2014 3 units
2013 5 units
2012 5 units
so payable would be
2018(12-17 seasons) 13 units
2019(13-18 seasons) 8 units
2020(14-19 seasons) 3 units
so a total of 24 units- or about 6 million dollars.
Thanks, I am not sure our AAC breathen are quite understanding they are receiving the worst of the Louisville punishment which is kindo of ironic as they celebrate.
(06-15-2017 02:44 PM)stever20 Wrote: the penalty is only for the 2015 season for the ACC. They had 4 units that year, so roughly a million dollars payable for after the 2016-21 seasons.
S20,
Three questions if you know the answer
1. Does 2015 equates to the 2014/15 season?
2. If answer one is yes, then does 2012, 2013 and 2014 come from the AAC's credits?
3. If answer two is yes, do you know approximate the hit to the AAC?
1- yes
2- yes
3- looks like
2014 3 units
2013 5 units
2012 5 units
so payable would be
2018(12-17 seasons) 13 units
2019(13-18 seasons) 8 units
2020(14-19 seasons) 3 units
so a total of 24 units- or about 6 million dollars.
Thanks, I am not sure our AAC breathen are quite understanding they are receiving the worst of the Louisville punishment which is kindo of ironic as they celebrate.
Sometimes karma is more valuable than money.
BB777,
It isn't really concern for the AAC, but I think pointing out the irony of the AAC fans celebrating Louisville penalty and not realizing it impacts them. I think this scene kinda puts my view on it. Really no emotion, but just stating the irony. I think many of you give me to much credit about having emotions or motive. I love talking stategy, assesment and scenarios startegically and not allow emotions to get in the way. Now, I will be the first, I am no way able to do that when the topic of UNC & NCSU comes up. One reason I typically try to avoid those conversations, I have to much attachment and it clouds reasoning and logic.
(06-15-2017 03:04 PM)msm96wolf Wrote: S20,
Three questions if you know the answer
1. Does 2015 equates to the 2014/15 season?
2. If answer one is yes, then does 2012, 2013 and 2014 come from the AAC's credits?
3. If answer two is yes, do you know approximate the hit to the AAC?
1- yes
2- yes
3- looks like
2014 3 units
2013 5 units
2012 5 units
so payable would be
2018(12-17 seasons) 13 units
2019(13-18 seasons) 8 units
2020(14-19 seasons) 3 units
so a total of 24 units- or about 6 million dollars.
Thanks, I am not sure our AAC breathen are quite understanding they are receiving the worst of the Louisville punishment which is kindo of ironic as they celebrate.
Sometimes karma is more valuable than money.
BB777,
It isn't really concern for the AAC, but I think pointing out the irony of the AAC fans celebrating Louisville penalty and not realizing it impacts them. I think this scene kinda puts my view on it. Really no emotion, but just stating the irony. I think many of you give me to much credit about having emotions or motive. I love talking stategy, assesment and scenarios startegically and not allow emotions to get in the way. Now, I will be the first, I am no way able to do that when the topic of UNC & NCSU comes up. One reason I typically try to avoid those conversations, I have to much attachment and it clouds reasoning and logic. :cheers:
Ok, but you really went out of your way to show concern for the AAC on this topic yesterday. Probably 10 posts on the same subject. I know what you were trying to say. I thought it was a bit unnecessary to keep beating the horse but cool.....the video you posted on your last post does indeed say exactly what you were getting at the entire time.
(06-15-2017 03:11 PM)stever20 Wrote: 1- yes
2- yes
3- looks like
2014 3 units
2013 5 units
2012 5 units
so payable would be
2018(12-17 seasons) 13 units
2019(13-18 seasons) 8 units
2020(14-19 seasons) 3 units
so a total of 24 units- or about 6 million dollars.
Thanks, I am not sure our AAC breathen are quite understanding they are receiving the worst of the Louisville punishment which is kindo of ironic as they celebrate.
Sometimes karma is more valuable than money.
BB777,
It isn't really concern for the AAC, but I think pointing out the irony of the AAC fans celebrating Louisville penalty and not realizing it impacts them. I think this scene kinda puts my view on it. Really no emotion, but just stating the irony. I think many of you give me to much credit about having emotions or motive. I love talking stategy, assesment and scenarios startegically and not allow emotions to get in the way. Now, I will be the first, I am no way able to do that when the topic of UNC & NCSU comes up. One reason I typically try to avoid those conversations, I have to much attachment and it clouds reasoning and logic.
Ok, but you really went out of your way to show concern for the AAC on this topic yesterday. Probably 10 posts on the same subject. I know what you were trying to say. I thought it was a bit unnecessary to keep beating the horse but cool.....the video you posted on your last post does indeed say exactly what you were getting at the entire time.
I admit that if it is a topic I find interesting, I can be like a dog with a bone. I can see where that could give negative perspective on the reason for my attention. Hindsight, I should have just posted this video with the concern and left it at that. Maybe this old dog can try to learn a new trick.
/
Louisville loses 2013 NCAA title
![[Image: photo-11-e1388271529355.jpg?w=1108]](https://heathershambles.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/photo-11-e1388271529355.jpg?w=1108)