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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Shooting at GOP baseball practice
(06-16-2017 07:41 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 07:34 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  There was a pretty moving segment on the News Hour with Barton and his Dem counterpart. I am not a Joe Barton fan politically, but man I felt for him as a human being. He was there with his two sons.
I'd like to think Congress is serious about improving the tone, but its going to take a lot.
I don't want to get into a scorekeeping argument with OO about heated rhetoric, but I'll just point out that Hillary was repeatedly called a traitor during the campaign. I heard numerous calls for her to be "put before a firing squad" or "hanging from a rope". Not to mention multiple chants of "lock her up!" at the Republican convention. And then Ted Nugent who made a comment alluding to raping her with his shotgun. And then was invited to the White House. I'm not aware of any Democratic Senate candidates talking about "Second Amendment solutions" or Democratic Presidential candidates who said if their opponent won "the second amendment people could take care of her". Etc.
I could go on and on.
Things have become too tribal. Republicans and Democrats have become identities in a way they didn't used to be. Not sure how we dial that back...
I think it starts at the top of government and works its way down.

I may have mentioned this before, but as a CPA/Attorney, tax law was one area of focus for my practice. For continuing education, I attended tax seminars where we had speakers who were tax lobbyists in DC to give us a heads up for what was coming down the track. A pretty common theme was that something like 85% of both houses of congress could get together and solve most of our problems if only the leadership would quit fanning the flames of partisanship.

As far as the scorekeeping about fault, I think that depends on which side of the aisle you start from. My own opinion is that the personal animosity was way overdone on Bill Clinton and GWB, not quite so heavy on Obama, and out of the ballpark overdone on Trump.
06-16-2017 08:06 AM
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JustAnotherAustinOwl Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Shooting at GOP baseball practice
(06-16-2017 07:41 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 07:34 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  There was a pretty moving segment on the News Hour with Barton and his Dem counterpart. I am not a Joe Barton fan politically, but man I felt for him as a human being. He was there with his two sons.

I'd like to think Congress is serious about improving the tone, but its going to take a lot.

I don't want to get into a scorekeeping argument with OO about heated rhetoric, but I'll just point out that Hillary was repeatedly called a traitor during the campaign. I heard numerous calls for her to be "put before a firing squad" or "hanging from a rope". Not to mention multiple chants of "lock her up!" at the Republican convention. And then Ted Nugent who made a comment alluding to raping her with his shotgun. And then was invited to the White House. I'm not aware of any Democratic Senate candidates talking about "Second Amendment solutions" or Democratic Presidential candidates who said if their opponent won "the second amendment people could take care of her". Etc.

I could go on and on.

Things have become too tribal. Republicans and Democrats have become identities in a way they didn't used to be. Not sure how we dial that back...

I think it starts at the top of government and works its way down.

Well, given that the newest GOP rep was literally arrested for assaulting a reporter during the campaign (and later pleaded guilty) then was elected nonetheless, I have some concerns.

But here's the clip I referenced above. Much more hopeful.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/videos/#219011
06-16-2017 08:22 AM
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JustAnotherAustinOwl Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Shooting at GOP baseball practice
(06-16-2017 08:06 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 07:41 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 07:34 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  There was a pretty moving segment on the News Hour with Barton and his Dem counterpart. I am not a Joe Barton fan politically, but man I felt for him as a human being. He was there with his two sons.
I'd like to think Congress is serious about improving the tone, but its going to take a lot.
I don't want to get into a scorekeeping argument with OO about heated rhetoric, but I'll just point out that Hillary was repeatedly called a traitor during the campaign. I heard numerous calls for her to be "put before a firing squad" or "hanging from a rope". Not to mention multiple chants of "lock her up!" at the Republican convention. And then Ted Nugent who made a comment alluding to raping her with his shotgun. And then was invited to the White House. I'm not aware of any Democratic Senate candidates talking about "Second Amendment solutions" or Democratic Presidential candidates who said if their opponent won "the second amendment people could take care of her". Etc.
I could go on and on.
Things have become too tribal. Republicans and Democrats have become identities in a way they didn't used to be. Not sure how we dial that back...
I think it starts at the top of government and works its way down.

I may have mentioned this before, but as a CPA/Attorney, tax law was one area of focus for my practice. For continuing education, I attended tax seminars where we had speakers who were tax lobbyists in DC to give us a heads up for what was coming down the track. A pretty common theme was that something like 85% of both houses of congress could get together and solve most of our problems if only the leadership would quit fanning the flames of partisanship.

As far as the scorekeeping about fault, I think that depends on which side of the aisle you start from. My own opinion is that the personal animosity was way overdone on Bill Clinton and GWB, not quite so heavy on Obama, and out of the ballpark overdone on Trump.

I agree it started going downhill in the Clinton years, but not sure how you can say it was not so heavy on Obama, given birtherism, "you lie", racist memes, etc.

It is higher on Trump without a doubt. But I could list dozens of things he said or did during the campaign and in office that were divisive in an unprecedented way. (Without making any reference whatsoever to Russia.)

I think we'd be in a much better spot if it had been Biden vs. Kasich, for example, regardless of who won.
06-16-2017 08:28 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Shooting at GOP baseball practice
(06-16-2017 08:06 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 07:41 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 07:34 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  There was a pretty moving segment on the News Hour with Barton and his Dem counterpart. I am not a Joe Barton fan politically, but man I felt for him as a human being. He was there with his two sons.
I'd like to think Congress is serious about improving the tone, but its going to take a lot.
I don't want to get into a scorekeeping argument with OO about heated rhetoric, but I'll just point out that Hillary was repeatedly called a traitor during the campaign. I heard numerous calls for her to be "put before a firing squad" or "hanging from a rope". Not to mention multiple chants of "lock her up!" at the Republican convention. And then Ted Nugent who made a comment alluding to raping her with his shotgun. And then was invited to the White House. I'm not aware of any Democratic Senate candidates talking about "Second Amendment solutions" or Democratic Presidential candidates who said if their opponent won "the second amendment people could take care of her". Etc.
I could go on and on.
Things have become too tribal. Republicans and Democrats have become identities in a way they didn't used to be. Not sure how we dial that back...
I think it starts at the top of government and works its way down.

I may have mentioned this before, but as a CPA/Attorney, tax law was one area of focus for my practice. For continuing education, I attended tax seminars where we had speakers who were tax lobbyists in DC to give us a heads up for what was coming down the track. A pretty common theme was that something like 85% of both houses of congress could get together and solve most of our problems if only the leadership would quit fanning the flames of partisanship.

As far as the scorekeeping about fault, I think that depends on which side of the aisle you start from. My own opinion is that the personal animosity was way overdone on Bill Clinton and GWB, not quite so heavy on Obama, and out of the ballpark overdone on Trump.

Yeah, your statement at the end is a great example of the influence that you team has on your perspective.

Obama's animosity was WAY over done (see Nugent, mustard, etc.). I can buy the argument that Trump's is as well, but certainly not that Trump's far exceeds Obama's.

But to your first point, I think that's the case, because bipartisan legislation does get passed routinely, but the leaders right now are not good at forcing cooperation. For example, I was listening to an interview of Schumer and McConnel yesterday, and they were both talking about how they actually do work together and get consequential legislation passed in a bipartisan fashion (citing the new veterans bill). But at the end of the interview, the interviewee mentioned to them about how people have commented on how out of office mingling between the parties has seen a steep descent, and specifically mentioned that law makers breaking bread together didn't seem to happen anymore. When McConnel was asked if he thought that helped to deepen the chasm, he very curtly responded no, and that he didn't think it was necessary to do that. I found that an odd response and one that suggested he has no intention of actually befriending those on the other side. Our leaders should be leading by example and trying to reach across the aisle all the time.
06-16-2017 08:29 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Shooting at GOP baseball practice
(06-16-2017 08:22 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 07:41 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 07:34 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  There was a pretty moving segment on the News Hour with Barton and his Dem counterpart. I am not a Joe Barton fan politically, but man I felt for him as a human being. He was there with his two sons.

I'd like to think Congress is serious about improving the tone, but its going to take a lot.

I don't want to get into a scorekeeping argument with OO about heated rhetoric, but I'll just point out that Hillary was repeatedly called a traitor during the campaign. I heard numerous calls for her to be "put before a firing squad" or "hanging from a rope". Not to mention multiple chants of "lock her up!" at the Republican convention. And then Ted Nugent who made a comment alluding to raping her with his shotgun. And then was invited to the White House. I'm not aware of any Democratic Senate candidates talking about "Second Amendment solutions" or Democratic Presidential candidates who said if their opponent won "the second amendment people could take care of her". Etc.

I could go on and on.

Things have become too tribal. Republicans and Democrats have become identities in a way they didn't used to be. Not sure how we dial that back...

I think it starts at the top of government and works its way down.

Well, given that the newest GOP rep was literally arrested for assaulting a reporter during the campaign (and later pleaded guilty) then was elected nonetheless, I have some concerns.

But here's the clip I referenced above. Much more hopeful.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/videos/#219011

I'm thrilled that he has publicly apologized and plead guilty. I think the first step in reconciliation and toning down the rhetoric is for offenders to admit they were wrong and take responsibility for their actions.
06-16-2017 08:31 AM
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JustAnotherAustinOwl Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Shooting at GOP baseball practice
(06-16-2017 08:29 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 08:06 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 07:41 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 07:34 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  There was a pretty moving segment on the News Hour with Barton and his Dem counterpart. I am not a Joe Barton fan politically, but man I felt for him as a human being. He was there with his two sons.
I'd like to think Congress is serious about improving the tone, but its going to take a lot.
I don't want to get into a scorekeeping argument with OO about heated rhetoric, but I'll just point out that Hillary was repeatedly called a traitor during the campaign. I heard numerous calls for her to be "put before a firing squad" or "hanging from a rope". Not to mention multiple chants of "lock her up!" at the Republican convention. And then Ted Nugent who made a comment alluding to raping her with his shotgun. And then was invited to the White House. I'm not aware of any Democratic Senate candidates talking about "Second Amendment solutions" or Democratic Presidential candidates who said if their opponent won "the second amendment people could take care of her". Etc.
I could go on and on.
Things have become too tribal. Republicans and Democrats have become identities in a way they didn't used to be. Not sure how we dial that back...
I think it starts at the top of government and works its way down.

I may have mentioned this before, but as a CPA/Attorney, tax law was one area of focus for my practice. For continuing education, I attended tax seminars where we had speakers who were tax lobbyists in DC to give us a heads up for what was coming down the track. A pretty common theme was that something like 85% of both houses of congress could get together and solve most of our problems if only the leadership would quit fanning the flames of partisanship.

As far as the scorekeeping about fault, I think that depends on which side of the aisle you start from. My own opinion is that the personal animosity was way overdone on Bill Clinton and GWB, not quite so heavy on Obama, and out of the ballpark overdone on Trump.

Yeah, your statement at the end is a great example of the influence that you team has on your perspective.

Obama's animosity was WAY over done (see Nugent, mustard, etc.). I can buy the argument that Trump's is as well, but certainly not that Trump's far exceeds Obama's.

But to your first point, I think that's the case, because bipartisan legislation does get passed routinely, but the leaders right now are not good at forcing cooperation. For example, I was listening to an interview of Schumer and McConnel yesterday, and they were both talking about how they actually do work together and get consequential legislation passed in a bipartisan fashion (citing the new veterans bill). But at the end of the interview, the interviewee mentioned to them about how people have commented on how out of office mingling between the parties has seen a steep descent, and specifically mentioned that law makers breaking bread together didn't seem to happen anymore. When McConnel was asked if he thought that helped to deepen the chasm, he very curtly responded no, and that he didn't think it was necessary to do that. I found that an odd response and one that suggested he has no intention of actually befriending those on the other side. Our leaders should be leading by example and trying to reach across the aisle all the time.

I've mentioned it before, but Orrin Hatch and Ted Kennedy were good buddies. Hatch was almost successfully primaried last time around and his opponent used his friendship with a *gasp* liberal against him. That about sums up the current problem.

Ginsberg and Scalia were good friends too.
06-16-2017 09:03 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Shooting at GOP baseball practice
(06-16-2017 08:29 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Yeah, your statement at the end is a great example of the influence that you team has on your perspective.
Obama's animosity was WAY over done (see Nugent, mustard, etc.). I can buy the argument that Trump's is as well, but certainly not that Trump's far exceeds Obama's.

Obama's overdone animosity was pretty much from the fringe. I won't argue that the animosity against Obama from the fringe was less than that of the others. I agree that things like the birther stuff were way out of line. In the birther case, my very first post on the issue described why is was a BS issue, and I never varied from that. But Obama did not get the kind of open opposition from the mainstream that both Bush and Trump have received. I'm sorry, he just didn't.

If you want to disagree with that, try finding an article from any mainstream source (like, for example, Yahoo) that extrapolated the kind of innuendo that the article we are discussing does about Trump, with similarly thin factual basis.

I'm sorry, but statements about how Obama was unfairly treated by the media invariably seem to end up comparing statements about Obama from fringe sources with statements about Bush or Trump from mainstream media. If you have something to refute that, have at it.
(This post was last modified: 06-16-2017 09:35 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
06-16-2017 09:29 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Shooting at GOP baseball practice
(06-16-2017 09:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 08:29 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Yeah, your statement at the end is a great example of the influence that you team has on your perspective.
Obama's animosity was WAY over done (see Nugent, mustard, etc.). I can buy the argument that Trump's is as well, but certainly not that Trump's far exceeds Obama's.

Obama's overdone animosity was pretty much from the fringe. I won't argue that the animosity against Obama from the fringe was less than that of the others. I agree that things like the birther stuff were way out of line. In the birther case, my very first post on the issue described why is was a BS issue, and I never varied from that. But Obama did not get the kind of open opposition from the mainstream that both Bush and Trump have received. I'm sorry, he just didn't.

If you want to disagree with that, try finding an article from any mainstream source (like, for example, Yahoo) that extrapolated the kind of innuendo that the article we are discussing does about Trump, with similarly thin factual basis.

FOX NEWS RAN A SEGMENT BLASTING HIM FOR USING MUSTARD.
06-16-2017 09:33 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Shooting at GOP baseball practice
(06-16-2017 09:33 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 09:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 08:29 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Yeah, your statement at the end is a great example of the influence that you team has on your perspective.
Obama's animosity was WAY over done (see Nugent, mustard, etc.). I can buy the argument that Trump's is as well, but certainly not that Trump's far exceeds Obama's.
Obama's overdone animosity was pretty much from the fringe. I won't argue that the animosity against Obama from the fringe was less than that of the others. I agree that things like the birther stuff were way out of line. In the birther case, my very first post on the issue described why is was a BS issue, and I never varied from that. But Obama did not get the kind of open opposition from the mainstream that both Bush and Trump have received. I'm sorry, he just didn't.
If you want to disagree with that, try finding an article from any mainstream source (like, for example, Yahoo) that extrapolated the kind of innuendo that the article we are discussing does about Trump, with similarly thin factual basis.
FOX NEWS RAN A SEGMENT BLASTING HIM FOR USING MUSTARD.

I thought Fox was considered fringe by your team. Seriously, at most you've got one instance. Are you arguing that is comparable to the constant barrage directed at Bush or Obama?
06-16-2017 09:48 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Shooting at GOP baseball practice
(06-16-2017 09:48 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 09:33 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 09:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 08:29 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Yeah, your statement at the end is a great example of the influence that you team has on your perspective.
Obama's animosity was WAY over done (see Nugent, mustard, etc.). I can buy the argument that Trump's is as well, but certainly not that Trump's far exceeds Obama's.
Obama's overdone animosity was pretty much from the fringe. I won't argue that the animosity against Obama from the fringe was less than that of the others. I agree that things like the birther stuff were way out of line. In the birther case, my very first post on the issue described why is was a BS issue, and I never varied from that. But Obama did not get the kind of open opposition from the mainstream that both Bush and Trump have received. I'm sorry, he just didn't.
If you want to disagree with that, try finding an article from any mainstream source (like, for example, Yahoo) that extrapolated the kind of innuendo that the article we are discussing does about Trump, with similarly thin factual basis.
FOX NEWS RAN A SEGMENT BLASTING HIM FOR USING MUSTARD.

I thought Fox was considered fringe by your team. Seriously, at most you've got one instance. Are you arguing that is comparable to the constant barrage directed at Bush or Obama?

Fox News is not fringe. It may promote fringe ideas sometimes, but it was, until recently, the most watched news network in the country. How is that fringe?

And I have way more than one instance, that's just one of my favorite ones.

And how do you call birtherism fringe, when the current POTUS was blowing the trumpet? It is a crazy idea that one would assumed would generally stick to the fringe, but it became a mainstream idea, in no small part due to Trump's actions.

And Obama was definitely on par with Bush in terms of the crap lobbed at him by his opponents.

Compared to Trump, I think Obama dealt with much more ludicrous critiques (see: mustard, birth place, tan suit, soldier saluting). Whereas Trump is dealing with a lot more, but they aren't as superficial.
06-16-2017 09:55 AM
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JustAnotherAustinOwl Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Shooting at GOP baseball practice
(06-16-2017 09:48 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 09:33 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 09:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(06-16-2017 08:29 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Yeah, your statement at the end is a great example of the influence that you team has on your perspective.
Obama's animosity was WAY over done (see Nugent, mustard, etc.). I can buy the argument that Trump's is as well, but certainly not that Trump's far exceeds Obama's.
Obama's overdone animosity was pretty much from the fringe. I won't argue that the animosity against Obama from the fringe was less than that of the others. I agree that things like the birther stuff were way out of line. In the birther case, my very first post on the issue described why is was a BS issue, and I never varied from that. But Obama did not get the kind of open opposition from the mainstream that both Bush and Trump have received. I'm sorry, he just didn't.
If you want to disagree with that, try finding an article from any mainstream source (like, for example, Yahoo) that extrapolated the kind of innuendo that the article we are discussing does about Trump, with similarly thin factual basis.
FOX NEWS RAN A SEGMENT BLASTING HIM FOR USING MUSTARD.

I thought Fox was considered fringe by your team. Seriously, at most you've got one instance. Are you arguing that is comparable to the constant barrage directed at Bush or Obama?

First, how can you call birtherism fringe when the Birther in Chief is now POTUS?

Second, I thought we were talking about politicians/pundits/voters animosity, not whether the "mainstream media" is fair. We probably don't agree on that point a whole lot either, but I don't think extreme hate-filled opposition to Obama was a fringe element of the GOP during the Obama years.
06-16-2017 09:57 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Shooting at GOP baseball practice
(06-16-2017 07:34 AM)JustAnotherAustinOwl Wrote:  There was a pretty moving segment on the News Hour with Barton and his Dem counterpart. I am not a Joe Barton fan politically, but man I felt for him as a human being. He was there with his two sons.

I'd like to think Congress is serious about improving the tone, but its going to take a lot.

I don't want to get into a scorekeeping argument with OO about heated rhetoric, but I'll just point out that Hillary was repeatedly called a traitor during the campaign. I heard numerous calls for her to be "put before a firing squad" or "hanging from a rope". Not to mention multiple chants of "lock her up!" at the Republican convention. And then Ted Nugent who made a comment alluding to raping her with his shotgun. And then was invited to the White House. I'm not aware of any Democratic Senate candidates talking about "Second Amendment solutions" or Democratic Presidential candidates who said if their opponent won "the second amendment people could take care of her". Etc.

I could go on and on.

Things have become too tribal. Republicans and Democrats have become identities in a way they didn't used to be. Not sure how we dial that back...

Just a tad of a quibble. I will wholeheartedly agree that the bolded portions were very much beyond acceptable rhetoric.

The italicized portion, well, lets just say that the relevant portion of the United States Code *was* violated. And the (out of the ordinary at the very least) decision by a FBI Director (as opposed to the Justice Department or a US Attorney) to not prosecute *could* be understood under the terms of prosecutorial discretion (i.e. it is problematic to bring an arcane charge with a non-intent level of culpability in front of a jury, who may possibly not understand the issue of non-intent), it still doesn' t detract that people *have* gone to jail (military people in military prison in front of non-jury court martials with learned judges) for that violation and for much of the same fact patterns that Hillary's rogue server represented.

So, respectfully, while I will agree with you on the bolded portions, the italicized portions of "lock her up" were not only 'fair game' for rhetoric, but, imo, probably the correct thing to do.
06-16-2017 10:13 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Shooting at GOP baseball practice
(06-16-2017 09:55 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Fox News is not fringe. It may promote fringe ideas sometimes, but it was, until recently, the most watched news network in the country. How is that fringe?
And I have way more than one instance, that's just one of my favorite ones.
And how do you call birtherism fringe, when the current POTUS was blowing the trumpet? It is a crazy idea that one would assumed would generally stick to the fringe, but it became a mainstream idea, in no small part due to Trump's actions.
And Obama was definitely on par with Bush in terms of the crap lobbed at him by his opponents.
Compared to Trump, I think Obama dealt with much more ludicrous critiques (see: mustard, birth place, tan suit, soldier saluting). Whereas Trump is dealing with a lot more, but they aren't as superficial.

Maybe it's because I don't watch Fox much, but I simply don't have any recall of the incident you describe, and little if any recall of multiple others. I know Fox did get on the birther train, at least slightly, and that's when I sort of thought they drifted off too far.

Hell, I consider Trump fringe. I think his whole campaign was based upon appealing to a fringe. That fringe just turned out to be larger than I expected, or maybe it was non-fringe people who were just totally disaffected with where the establishment was leading them.

As far as the critiques of Trump, they're pretty superficial at this point. Making a point of how many condos his company is selling to LLCs in one example of a totally irrelevant commentary. There may--or may not--prove to be some substance to the collusion and obstruction claims. So far, they're pretty superficial.

You list four superficial criticisms of Obama (mustard, birthplace, tan suit, saluting). I don't remember two of them (mustard, tan suit). They both sound stupid to me. I doubt I ever heard them, or if I did they didn't make much of an impression, so they can't have been very mainstream. My first post on the birther affair was to dismiss it as irrelevant, and my position never altered on that. The saluting thing bothers me as a military guy, but then again I was Navy, and we don't salute without having a hat on, so I don't get that worked up about that one either. I'm not all that big on the saluting thing anyway. In Vietnam, nobody saluted anybody, because that showed Charlie whom to shoot. I had a much bigger problem with corpse-man because that is kind of like saying an LLC is a corporation, it shows that he didn't care enough to do the proper preparation.
(This post was last modified: 06-16-2017 11:26 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
06-16-2017 10:39 AM
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