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Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
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Tribe32 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
You have to look at how recruiting is done in both sports. Football is mostly through camps and film (HUDL). Basketball is through AAU and high school. With football you can see 100 players at a time in one camp. Not true for hoops except for some elite camps, but we're not getting those players anyway
06-13-2017 11:20 AM
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Tribe4SF Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
(06-13-2017 11:04 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(06-12-2017 03:06 PM)Got Ribe Wrote:  If you're interested in drilling down a bit, check out the latest APA report for our athletic program and JMU's.

Observations from looking at this data:

1. Salaries for football staff is $1.3M, for basketball .7M. Neither number is high and are not competitive in the industries. However, just noticing, don't we have more football coaches than basketball coaches? Hasn't our football coach been here for 37 years? Wasn't our former OC a former big shot with pro football experience? So, I am merely saying that I would have thought that the gap in salaries between football and basketball would have been larger.

2. Aren't there 53 scholarships in football (or is it 43?) and even more walk-ons? Aren't there only a maximum of 15 players in basketball? So why is the basketball recruiting budget LARGER (119K, 116K respectively) for basketball than for football?

We give 63 scholarships for football, and the roster is typically around 100 guys. Partial scholarships are allowed in FCS, and we typically have around 70 guys receiving scholarship support.
06-13-2017 12:06 PM
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tribeinexile Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
Finally calmed down to look a little deeper at the JMU vs. W&M basketball numbers.

1) JMU spends 80% more on basketball than we do.
2) Somewhat more than half of that seems to be dead money (severance and overhead - seems to me that JMU always has an overstated athletic budget because they charge more fixed costs back to athletics than other institutions).
3) They spend 20% on salaries than we do. This despite the fact that last year they brought in a coach with no head coaching experience and we have a coaching staff which has significant tenure.
4) They spent 388% (not a typo) more on compensation - $214K vs. $44K. Not sure what that is, perhaps some bonuses or more cost accounting chargebacks.
5) They spent 2,566% (again, not a typo) on guarantees - $213K vs. $8K. I assume that is buying a decent OOC schedule.
6) They received $90K in guarantees and we received $244K - this is consistent with the declared mandate that Tribe MBB play 3 money games a year.
6) Our contributions to basketball were $775K; their contributions make no sense.

As stated earlier, these operating budgets do not address any capital investments that each school may have made for MBB.

So, other than we don't pay our coaches, require money games on the road but don't pay for home games and for every $$$ I contribute for basketball W&M removes a $$$ of institutional support for basketball, we're fine!

I lost that feeling of calm again.
06-28-2017 04:26 PM
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Sitting bull Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
(06-28-2017 04:26 PM)tribeinexile Wrote:  Finally calmed down to look a little deeper at the JMU vs. W&M basketball numbers.

1) JMU spends 80% more on basketball than we do.
2) Somewhat more than half of that seems to be dead money (severance and overhead - seems to me that JMU always has an overstated athletic budget because they charge more fixed costs back to athletics than other institutions).
3) They spend 20% on salaries than we do. This despite the fact that last year they brought in a coach with no head coaching experience and we have a coaching staff which has significant tenure.
4) They spent 388% (not a typo) more on compensation - $214K vs. $44K. Not sure what that is, perhaps some bonuses or more cost accounting chargebacks.
5) They spent 2,566% (again, not a typo) on guarantees - $213K vs. $8K. I assume that is buying a decent OOC schedule.
6) They received $90K in guarantees and we received $244K - this is consistent with the declared mandate that Tribe MBB play 3 money games a year.
6) Our contributions to basketball were $775K; their contributions make no sense.

As stated earlier, these operating budgets do not address any capital investments that each school may have made for MBB.

So, other than we don't pay our coaches, require money games on the road but don't pay for home games and for every $$$ I contribute for basketball W&M removes a $$$ of institutional support for basketball, we're fine!

I lost that feeling of calm again.

The guarantee investment is ridiculous and unmasks the argument that major schools just won't play us at Kaplan as absolute BS.

We pay, they will play.
06-28-2017 06:28 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
The majors do not play away games in the non-conference schedule. The exception is the league challenges, and the occasional major at major game.

It's part of the rigged at large system.

W&M is not getting any major to Kaplan.

That is why the mid-majors need to get together re: non-conference scheduling, and defeat the rigged at large system.
06-28-2017 09:44 PM
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tribe_pride Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
(06-28-2017 09:44 PM)nj alum Wrote:  The majors do not play away games in the non-conference schedule. The exception is the league challenges, and the occasional major at major game.

It's part of the rigged at large system.

W&M is not getting any major to Kaplan.

That is why the mid-majors need to get together re: non-conference scheduling, and defeat the rigged at large system.

For the most part you are correct. Few exceptions in the league like Charleston hosting Wake but those are few and far between.

The problem was that our OOC home schedule last year was Bridgewater, Presbyterian, Liberty, Milligan and Savannah State. Who is going to want to watch any of those except maybe Liberty which was the Saturday after Thanksgiving so nobody was on campus?

Our OOC away schedule was excellent on the other hand with Louisville, Duke, Central Michigan, Hampton, Rhode Island and ODU.

It would be nice to get some sort of middle ground with some decent OOC at home competition. 2015-2016 was better with Washington Adventist, Hampton, ODU, Mary Washington, High Point, and Central Michigan at home.
06-28-2017 10:10 PM
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bubbadog57 Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
ODU comes to Kaplan this season. Still no word on whether Tony is successful in scheduling home and homes in sort of a round robin with Richmond, VCU and George Mason.
06-29-2017 05:25 AM
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Sitting bull Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
(06-28-2017 09:44 PM)nj alum Wrote:  The majors do not play away games in the non-conference schedule. The exception is the league challenges, and the occasional major at major game.

It's part of the rigged at large system.

W&M is not getting any major to Kaplan.

That is why the mid-majors need to get together re: non-conference scheduling, and defeat the rigged at large system.

That's just not true. It's far less frequent, not impossible.

Didn't UVA just play at JMU?
UR gets at least one P5 home each year, often Wake.
Elon leveraged a "home" game with Duke in Greensboro.
Charleston has at least one P5 opponent each year.

We need to wake up and stop making excuses.
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2017 05:26 AM by Sitting bull.)
06-29-2017 05:25 AM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
I'm not making excuses.

Everything ... everything is geared towards making the NCAA tourney, and getting an at large bid, and coming to Kaplan does not fit the template for the majors.

Duke, Syracuse, G'town ... annual disgraceful non-conference schedules with no true away games, unless it's a league challenge. They boost the RPI with the conference schedule, and take no chances with the non-conference schedule.

UR is A10 ... that league is higher than mid-major.

Elon played Duke at a neutral site where Duke often plays NCAA tourney games (another travesty).

Charleston has location with a nice tourney that they run.

I'm just thankful that UVa continues to play us in football.

We need to be smart, beat the majors at their own game, and get a scheduling alliance with the rest of the mid-majors. First, this will boost RPI. Second, this will result in some attractive home games. Third, if the majors start to have difficulty filling up their non-conference home schedule because the mid-majors have no openings, maybe things will change.

I doubt it. The majors will go to 20 game conference schedules, etc.

Let's worry about what we can control. We need to get other mid-majors on the same page.

Ivy/Patriot vs. CAA challenge? Missouri Valley vs. CAA challenge? AE/SoCon vs. CAA challenge?

Think of it this way. What sport/league allows its members to choose their own schedules? Not the professionals. Not the amateurs. Only the academics. The whole thing is rotten, rigged, and disgraceful.
06-29-2017 07:44 AM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
How about this.

Play the conference schedule first, along with other similarly situated conferences.

Then, in February, when the conference season is over, play teams in other leagues, who have done the same thing, based on won-lost records. For example, the first place CAA team plays the first place AE team, etc.

Then play the CAA tourney.

Or do some variation, with some non-conference early, conference schedule, and then non-conference late.
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2017 07:52 AM by nj alum.)
06-29-2017 07:50 AM
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Zorch Online
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Post: #51
RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
(06-29-2017 07:44 AM)nj alum Wrote:  Third, if the majors start to have difficulty filling up their non-conference home schedule because the mid-majors have no openings, maybe things will change.

The majors will never have a problem filling up their schedules with mid-majors. There will always be a school who wants to go head to head against the big boys, who wants to play in the Dean Dome, or Cameron, or Rupp, or the Carrier Dome etc, and there will always be a school who thinks that maybe this is the year that they pull off the big upset ......

In other words, the mid-majors will never be truly unified because some of those mid-majors are yearning and dreaming of moving up.
06-29-2017 08:46 AM
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Sitting bull Offline
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Post: #52
RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
(06-29-2017 05:25 AM)Sitting bull Wrote:  
(06-28-2017 09:44 PM)nj alum Wrote:  The majors do not play away games in the non-conference schedule. The exception is the league challenges, and the occasional major at major game.

It's part of the rigged at large system.

W&M is not getting any major to Kaplan.

That is why the mid-majors need to get together re: non-conference scheduling, and defeat the rigged at large system.

That's just not true. It's far less frequent, not impossible.

Didn't UVA just play at JMU?
UR gets at least one P5 home each year, often Wake.
Elon leveraged a "home" game with Duke in Greensboro.
Charleston has at least one P5 opponent each year.

We need to wake up and stop making excuses.

Also - sticking nearby or within the CAA:

Hofstra played KENTUCKY in Brooklyn last year
Northeastern HOSTED Michigan State
Navy HOSTED Ohio State
VMI recently HOSTED Virginia Tech

Yes, Elon played Duke in Greensboro (closer to Elon and their fans had the mid court seats) it was STILL AN EFFORT TO PLAY OUTSIDE CAMERON - and on national TV to boot. It would be like W&M playing Duke in Richmond. THAT'S HUGE.

We can play this game forever.

I AM NOT BUYING THIS GARBAGE THAT WE CANNOT DO IT.

I AM NOT BUYING THE EXCUSES.

WE AREN'T MAKING AN EFFORT - that's what the numbers tell me.
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2017 11:41 AM by Sitting bull.)
06-29-2017 11:39 AM
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Tribe32 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
I completely agree with Sitting Bull. Our former AD didn't give a thought to basketball which is ironic since that was his sport. I'm sure he had plenty of connections.
06-29-2017 12:43 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
If we had an ice hockey team, or if W&M was located in the greater NYC area, we might get Michigan St. or Kentucky.

I don't know whether or not the effort is being made / has been made re: OOC home schedule. I do know that the effort was not there for home CIT/CBI games.

Neutral site games are not home games for the little guy.

My sole point is that the reality is that the system is rigged, and one of the ways that it is rigged is that the majors aren't coming to Kaplan.

We are now having trouble getting Richmond and VCU to come to Kaplan. That is all that you need to know.
06-29-2017 01:41 PM
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Sitting bull Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
(06-29-2017 01:41 PM)nj alum Wrote:  If we had an ice hockey team, or if W&M was located in the greater NYC area, we might get Michigan St. or Kentucky.

I don't know whether or not the effort is being made / has been made re: OOC home schedule. I do know that the effort was not there for home CIT/CBI games.

Neutral site games are not home games for the little guy.

My sole point is that the reality is that the system is rigged, and one of the ways that it is rigged is that the majors aren't coming to Kaplan.

We are now having trouble getting Richmond and VCU to come to Kaplan. That is all that you need to know.

More excuses......

We spent a measly $8,000 on guarantees. What else do you need to know????

I'm really surprised you don't see this. It's the same reason we never participate in post season. It's not because we are more clever than everyone else - WE ARE CHEAP!! WE DON'T TRY!! WE MAKE EXCUSES!

And Elon - YES ELON - found a way to play Duke as a home team in Greensboro. Rather than dissing it - we should be envying it. Rather than say - wow, what if we played them in Richmond as our home game on a 2-1. I could care less if they had more fans there - it's thinking out of the box.

It is sad enough to see the pathetic numbers - but to see our bigger fans back them up with excuses is just depressing. It's like we are living in a bubble here - everyone else can do things, we cannot - or we choose not to see it.
06-29-2017 02:01 PM
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Tribeheart Offline
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Post: #56
Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
We are certainly behind the eight ball on cost of attendance and home game guarantee funds, but I don't think that explains why we aren't rotating yearly with the Ivies, Southern, Patriot, MAAC conferences. I recognize the importance of trying to schedule mid-west teams to be visible in our recruiting grounds, but leave those games to the P5 away games. Nothing wrong with a home OOC schedule of familiar east coast mid majors, as opposed to D2/3 and Savannah State.

Noticed App State appears to have worked themselves in as a late add-in to ESPN's Puerto Rico Tip-Off in Nov, since FL State withdrew. So, an awful Sun Belt team can pull this off, but we can't ?? The inference was that it was due to Appy's strong brand from football past. Really??

Sent from my SM-N910V using CSNbbs mobile app
(This post was last modified: 06-29-2017 02:39 PM by Tribeheart.)
06-29-2017 02:33 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
SB-

NC State is coming to W'burg ... in men's soccer.

Wisconsin is coming to W'burg ... in women's soccer.

VPI and Maryland came to W'burg this year ... in baseball.

Maryland, UVa and Richmond came to W'burg this year ... in lacrosse.

So, same Athletics Department, different sports.

I think, on this issue, it's the sport more than the Athletics Department.
06-29-2017 03:38 PM
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Sitting bull Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
The numbers don't lie. We aren't even trying.
06-29-2017 06:46 PM
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Rocco Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
Cut six sports and there's plenty of money for hoops.
06-29-2017 07:45 PM
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nj alum Offline
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RE: Va Colleges Spending on Football & Basketball
06-29-2017 10:31 PM
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