(06-10-2017 08:20 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  

(06-09-2017 11:28 AM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  Hate to break it to some folks, but just because a non P5 jumps up and bites a P5 school occasionally doesn't mean they deserve a place at the table.

You're always going to have upsets and shockers, but that has been and will always be the exception, not the norm.

That's not to say that there aren't any decent non P5 teams, but rather if they had to play an SEC or B1G schedule on a regular basis, the shine would be off Cinderella's glass slippers rather fast

Mainly because it's rigged in the big boys favor. An up and comer can't rise up and make a name for themselves because the big boys move the fences or goalposts to preserve their power, which is fine. That is life and reality.

But Wake Forest is in the club because they joined the right one at the right time, then Florida State elevated that club in football with even better timing. BYU is out of the club because it wasn't far enough east to be in a better conference when the BCS started. Well, that and politics/religion.

Northwestern has basically no history after decades in the B1G. Houston was an upstart that competed for national titles and forced their way into the club only to be kicked out due to politics and timing.

So yes, upsets happen and most of those in the best conferences deserve to be there based on history and institutional profile but stop. Few new schools can dream of moving up because it's locked away from them. Money, power, prestige, attention, etc...

It's like I said above, if any on the non-P5 teams were worthy of being in a P5 conference, they'd already be in.

Another fact is that anytime realignment is brought up, schools are looking to get into the B1G, SEC, etc, not the other way around. I don't see any ACC school (for example) clamoring to leave and join the AAC or the MAC.

Oh please, it's not that simple, it's like joining a social club, it's often at the discretion of those who run the club except college fraternities because they have visible national bodies.

Having an inside connection helps. But being worthy of joining? It's not quite as simple as having solid attendance, winning on the field, TV market, recruiting grounds, etc... heck, that could work against you and many schools have been blocked because they were perceived as a threat to those already inside. Like any social club, it's up to those on the inside to have to want you. Not because anyone is or isn't worthy.

What the Hell did South Florida accomplish to be in the Big East? Be founded in Florida? By contrast, why was Baylor selected for the Big 12 over Houston? It wasn't because, at the time, they could compete.

(06-11-2017 12:46 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  What the Hell did South Florida accomplish to be in the Big East? Be founded in Florida? By contrast, why was Baylor selected for the Big 12 over Houston? It wasn't because, at the time, they could compete.

Baylor is an excellent example, here ... Texas state politics and Baylor grads at the right place and the right time seem to be the primary determinant of Texas insisting that Baylor had to come along with Texas Tech.

(06-10-2017 07:06 PM)Indiana Bones Wrote:  Bottom line is, while the AAC isn't up to P5 standards yet, the AAC is closer to the P5 than the G4 from a competitive standpoint, facilities, tradition, & fan support, particularly when taking basketball into the equation.

Actually, regarding results on the field (as measured by Sagarin) and fan support (as measured by attendance), the AAC is clearly closer to the other G5 than to the P5.

The AAC is about 33% of the way between the G5 and P5 in terms of results (and that's considering only last year, the AAC's best year), and about 25% of the way in terms of attendance.

(06-11-2017 12:46 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  Oh please, it's not that simple, it's like joining a social club, it's often at the discretion of those who run the club except college fraternities because they have visible national bodies.

Like all elites, they uphold both $$ and social standards, until the situation demands otherwise, then social standards bow to the financial realities. E.g., an elite blue-blood family will turn their noses up at "uncouth" nouveaux-riche and not let them in, but then if the blue blood wealth is declining, they will hold their noses and consort with the new-money if it means shoring up their own wealth.

E.g., ideally, the elite ACC core didn't want to admit schools like FSU and Louisville, which they considered to be academically not up to snuff. But when the situation threatened the survival of the ACC as an elite athletic conference, they lowered their standards and sent out the invites.

Yep, it's not about earning anything or those on the inside being clearly better, it's about elite maintaining their aura of superiority over outsiders. It doesn't matter what Boise or even BYU do, they're new money outsiders.

I can say that of the schools that crashed the club and stayed in it, at least they seem to be legit for the most part. Utah, the Arizonas, Virginia Tech, Louisville and Florida State are all very legit. Meanwhile, Baylor, Texas Tech and TCU are lucky they have their platform or they'd be in the AAC/MWC without it. TCU did an impressive rebuild but will probably fall out the club at some point. I realize all three were in a big conference before but they clearly were going to or dId get left behind.

(06-11-2017 02:12 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  

(06-11-2017 12:46 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  What the Hell did South Florida accomplish to be in the Big East? Be founded in Florida? By contrast, why was Baylor selected for the Big 12 over Houston? It wasn't because, at the time, they could compete.

Baylor is an excellent example, here ... Texas state politics and Baylor grads at the right place and the right time seem to be the primary determinant of Texas insisting that Baylor had to come along with Texas Tech.

USF as well. Best choice available when BC split.

I thought P and G came directly from the CFP itself? If not, then it was based on that.

It has to do with money, not with on-field success. Therefore, AAC will likely never be a P.

(06-10-2017 08:15 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  

(06-09-2017 09:03 AM)megadrone Wrote:  

(06-09-2017 07:55 AM)orangefan Wrote:  

(06-09-2017 01:23 AM)ColKurtz Wrote:  NY6 bowls are consolation prizes for 3-4 of the P5 conferences. An undefeated G5 team qualifying for a consolation prize doth not make them P5.

Excellent point! Taking it a step further, to remain in the upper tier, a P5 conference must regularly put schools in the CFP itself and pick up multiple NY6 invites each year.

That's mainly the reason the Big East was always on the fringe or talked about as being undeserving. During Big East 2.0, there wasn't consistently a national champ contender and there were years the BE champ wasn't deserving of an AQ bowl.

FWIW I think the system we have now accurately reflects expectations -- it doesn't consider that multiple conference winners from the American, MWC et. al. are deserving but usually one of them would be. That's its glaring weakness as I see it. If there are 2 undefeated G5 champs, one of them went undefeated the wrong year.

This scenario scares the crap out of the P5 and, by extension, ESPN.

Pretty sure neither the P5 or ESPN lose a minute of sleep over it. It would suck to be undefeated and play in the Boca Bowl against some random 7-5 G5. Ahout the best outcome would be getting a game vs a 6-6/7-5 P5 in the something like Indy, Vegas, or Heart of Dallas Bowls.

(06-11-2017 11:56 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  I thought P and G came directly from the CFP itself? If not, then it was based on that.

It has to do with money, not with on-field success. Therefore, AAC will likely never be a P.

the money is a bit of a Catch 22 as well. If UConn, Cincinnati, Houston and USF/UCF had P5 media contracts their athletic budgets would be bigger than many schools in the P5 (UConn is already higher than a few schools). Those schools have demonstrated a commitment to athletics and have strong alumni support.

To clarify, ratings aren't everything. They're largely driven by the day, time of day, and network.

The AAC's issues are: what other conferences would be willing to play in that time slot? How much better or worse is the AAC at attracting ratings than that conference? How much is that delta (i.e. how many people are watching at that time of day, what are their demographics, etc.)? How much would those conferences demand as payment? What's the value of adding the other conference's demanded payout to the value of the different ratings? That's what the AAC's TV worth from a ratings perspective.

Then there's the value from growing/defending carriage rates, but that's another animal.

More I think of this subject, should the thread be called the B12 may need to be part of the G6?

(06-11-2017 12:46 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  Oh please, it's not that simple, it's like joining a social club, it's often at the discretion of those who run the club except college fraternities because they have visible national bodies.

Having an inside connection helps. But being worthy of joining? It's not quite as simple as having solid attendance, winning on the field, TV market, recruiting grounds, etc... heck, that could work against you and many schools have been blocked because they were perceived as a threat to those already inside. Like any social club, it's up to those on the inside to have to want you. Not because anyone is or isn't worthy.

What the Hell did South Florida accomplish to be in the Big East? Be founded in Florida? By contrast, why was Baylor selected for the Big 12 over Houston? It wasn't because, at the time, they could compete.

Like any social club, if the members think a "pledge" could add value to the core, they'd be in. For whatever reason, someone, somewhere thinks those currently not P5 do not add enough to warrant membership.

Seems like most are aware of how the game is played. That means if one wants into one of the clubs, then they have to be ready to play the game. If Baylor was selected before UH, the simple answer is that the Baylor folks played the game correctly. Is it their fault they had "friends" in the right places? As they say, don't hate the player, hate the game. I also can't help but think that since everything is about the $$$ these days, if a program can add enough value to push the needle when contract negotiations come up, many of those "warts" would be overlooked.

There must be some reason programs are left out and I refuse to believe that it boils down to not being "fair".

Well it is exactly that in a few cases just it's not fair to assume that some teams on the right side of the rope deserve fair access.

It's not about what the current P5 thinks/wants

This is America green is the only color that counts

The B1G cannot make MAC fans care about their schools athletic teams but contrawise, they have no say in what ESPN/Fox/CBS wants to pay the MAC either. If they decide MACtion is worth 30 million a year then guess what, they're in the clubhouse and no one took a single vote.

If the AAC starts averaging 45K a year and this gets them a huge contract then they earned that and no P5 has any say in the matter. Can you provide a product TV will pay for? That's the ONLY question in determining who is a "power" conference

(06-11-2017 12:01 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-10-2017 08:15 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  

(06-09-2017 09:03 AM)megadrone Wrote:  

(06-09-2017 07:55 AM)orangefan Wrote:  

(06-09-2017 01:23 AM)ColKurtz Wrote:  NY6 bowls are consolation prizes for 3-4 of the P5 conferences. An undefeated G5 team qualifying for a consolation prize doth not make them P5.

Excellent point! Taking it a step further, to remain in the upper tier, a P5 conference must regularly put schools in the CFP itself and pick up multiple NY6 invites each year.

That's mainly the reason the Big East was always on the fringe or talked about as being undeserving. During Big East 2.0, there wasn't consistently a national champ contender and there were years the BE champ wasn't deserving of an AQ bowl.

FWIW I think the system we have now accurately reflects expectations -- it doesn't consider that multiple conference winners from the American, MWC et. al. are deserving but usually one of them would be. That's its glaring weakness as I see it. If there are 2 undefeated G5 champs, one of them went undefeated the wrong year.

This scenario scares the crap out of the P5 and, by extension, ESPN.

Pretty sure neither the P5 or ESPN lose a minute of sleep over it. It would suck to be undefeated and play in the Boca Bowl against some random 7-5 G5. Ahout the best outcome would be getting a game vs a 6-6/7-5 P5 in the something like Indy, Vegas, or Heart of Dallas Bowls.

I heard that same tune before the CFP came into existence. Remind me again how well the BCS is doing.

(06-12-2017 06:56 AM)BadgerMJ Wrote:  

(06-11-2017 12:46 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  Oh please, it's not that simple, it's like joining a social club, it's often at the discretion of those who run the club except college fraternities because they have visible national bodies.

Having an inside connection helps. But being worthy of joining? It's not quite as simple as having solid attendance, winning on the field, TV market, recruiting grounds, etc... heck, that could work against you and many schools have been blocked because they were perceived as a threat to those already inside. Like any social club, it's up to those on the inside to have to want you. Not because anyone is or isn't worthy.

What the Hell did South Florida accomplish to be in the Big East? Be founded in Florida? By contrast, why was Baylor selected for the Big 12 over Houston? It wasn't because, at the time, they could compete.

Like any social club, if the members think a "pledge" could add value to the core, they'd be in. For whatever reason, someone, somewhere thinks those currently not P5 do not add enough to warrant membership.

Seems like most are aware of how the game is played. That means if one wants into one of the clubs, then they have to be ready to play the game. If Baylor was selected before UH, the simple answer is that the Baylor folks played the game correctly. Is it their fault they had "friends" in the right places? As they say, don't hate the player, hate the game. I also can't help but think that since everything is about the $$$ these days, if a program can add enough value to push the needle when contract negotiations come up, many of those "warts" would be overlooked.

There must be some reason programs are left out and I refuse to believe that it boils down to not being "fair".

What the f*** does that retarded saying mean anyway?

(06-12-2017 09:14 AM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  

(06-11-2017 12:01 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(06-10-2017 08:15 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  

(06-09-2017 09:03 AM)megadrone Wrote:  

(06-09-2017 07:55 AM)orangefan Wrote:  Excellent point! Taking it a step further, to remain in the upper tier, a P5 conference must regularly put schools in the CFP itself and pick up multiple NY6 invites each year.

That's mainly the reason the Big East was always on the fringe or talked about as being undeserving. During Big East 2.0, there wasn't consistently a national champ contender and there were years the BE champ wasn't deserving of an AQ bowl.

FWIW I think the system we have now accurately reflects expectations -- it doesn't consider that multiple conference winners from the American, MWC et. al. are deserving but usually one of them would be. That's its glaring weakness as I see it. If there are 2 undefeated G5 champs, one of them went undefeated the wrong year.

This scenario scares the crap out of the P5 and, by extension, ESPN.

Pretty sure neither the P5 or ESPN lose a minute of sleep over it. It would suck to be undefeated and play in the Boca Bowl against some random 7-5 G5. Ahout the best outcome would be getting a game vs a 6-6/7-5 P5 in the something like Indy, Vegas, or Heart of Dallas Bowls.

I heard that same tune before the CFP came into existence. Remind me again how well the BCS is doing.

Its alive and well. It's been tweaked a bit, has a new name, and now generates about 3 to 4 times the revenue.

The CFP and/or ESPN being scared of two undefeated G5's rests entirely on the idea that there would be public outcry over one of those G5's not getting a NY6 bowl.

I don't see why there would be any such outcry. Even if it were undefeated MWC and AAC teams, each with multiple P5 wins.

(06-12-2017 10:34 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  The CFP and/or ESPN being scared of two undefeated G5's rests entirely on the idea that there would be public outcry over one of those G5's not getting a NY6 bowl.

I don't see why there would be any such outcry. Even if it were undefeated MWC and AAC teams, each with multiple P5 wins.

Yes, IIRC, the first year of the BCS, Tulane went undefeated and finished around #15 in the polls. The outcry that they didn't make the BCS title game amounted to basically nothing.