(06-02-2017 01:13 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(06-02-2017 12:39 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Too many average students are sold the lie of college. No you can't major in psychology, history, Etnic-studies, etc...from an average college and expect an above average salary or worst yet even a job offer in a field close to your major. Even with the grade inflation...most employers aren't impressed you received a 3.80 GPA from Backwater St. U when you didn't have any rigor in school and you haven't gathered any relevant experience. So...graduate with a worthless degree...you are likely to make close to minimum wage after graduation.

I wish counselors would push more students into vocational training or the military. The former can give you a lifetime job that will pay well (and there is a critical need for skilled tradesmen) and the latter will help mature a student, give them an edge over most other job applicants, appreciate the freedom they have and provide vocational training or the opportunity to receive more training/schooling through the generous GI Bill.

I understand the general argument and agree that getting a "worthless degree" to the extent that it accumulates debt that cannot effectively be repaid is questionable. On the other hand, I think the growing questions about the viability of a college education overrates the attractiveness of vocational education and the trades. Going to trade school, for example, can cost as much as going to college and it's not an easy process to get signed on with a union that provides the compensation and benefits to pay off those trade school bills any more than it is to get a job out of college. These are also jobs that the average person isn't able to work in at older ages in the same manner as white collar jobs (which was fine when there was a robust pension system, but that doesn't exist today for the vast majority of people). It takes a certain type of a person to be successful in a vocation and it's exponentially the case that it takes a very certain type of person to be successful in the military. I think too many people are all too quick to suggest vocational training as a "no brainer" alternative to high school grads that are borderline college material (and there's definitely nothing that's "no brainer" about going to the military -- someone needs to be particularly committed to that field in order to enter it).

While college students should be more realistic about their job opportunities, the fact that a college degree is no longer the effective guarantee for a good job in the way that it was a generation or two ago doesn't mean that it's not worth it. Education level is still the single greatest determinant of income level in this country. If you want to get into the upper middle class into this country going forward, it's going to be even tougher to do so without a college degree (and frankly without an advanced degree beyond that) than ever before. Getting a college degree is simply the ante to get into that game today (as opposed to the end game itself). How many of us here would honestly tell our kids to not take a chance to play that game (even if they end up not winning 4 years later) when we have an increasingly have/have-not society?

Sorry but your post is bunk. Vocational training doesn't even come close in cost to a 4 (now 4 or 6) year college degree. Most Vocational programs are for one or two years. As for jobs. Many who graduate from a Vocational school have jobs waiting for them. In the 80s and 90s, when everyone had to have a college degree a lot of jobs that required Vocational training went unfilled. As for Unions. So you know, most blue collar jobs are not union jobs any longer. I do agree that the military is not for everyone, but for a lot of the Millennial generation, lost in debt with their Women's Studies degree a bit of military discipline would have been a good thing.

College is not, and should not be for everyone. And don't get me started on the advanced degree crap, especially an MBA.

(06-02-2017 01:13 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(06-02-2017 12:39 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Too many average students are sold the lie of college. No you can't major in psychology, history, Etnic-studies, etc...from an average college and expect an above average salary or worst yet even a job offer in a field close to your major. Even with the grade inflation...most employers aren't impressed you received a 3.80 GPA from Backwater St. U when you didn't have any rigor in school and you haven't gathered any relevant experience. So...graduate with a worthless degree...you are likely to make close to minimum wage after graduation.

I wish counselors would push more students into vocational training or the military. The former can give you a lifetime job that will pay well (and there is a critical need for skilled tradesmen) and the latter will help mature a student, give them an edge over most other job applicants, appreciate the freedom they have and provide vocational training or the opportunity to receive more training/schooling through the generous GI Bill.

I understand the general argument and agree that getting a "worthless degree" to the extent that it accumulates debt that cannot effectively be repaid is questionable. On the other hand, I think the growing questions about the viability of a college education overrates the attractiveness of vocational education and the trades. Going to trade school, for example, can cost as much as going to college and it's not an easy process to get signed on with a union that provides the compensation and benefits to pay off those trade school bills any more than it is to get a job out of college. These are also jobs that the average person isn't able to work in at older ages in the same manner as white collar jobs (which was fine when there was a robust pension system, but that doesn't exist today for the vast majority of people). It takes a certain type of a person to be successful in a vocation and it's exponentially the case that it takes a very certain type of person to be successful in the military. I think too many people are all too quick to suggest vocational training as a "no brainer" alternative to high school grads that are borderline college material (and there's definitely nothing that's "no brainer" about going to the military -- someone needs to be particularly committed to that field in order to enter it).

While college students should be more realistic about their job opportunities, the fact that a college degree is no longer the effective guarantee for a good job in the way that it was a generation or two ago doesn't mean that it's not worth it. Education level is still the single greatest determinant of income level in this country. If you want to get into the upper middle class into this country going forward, it's going to be even tougher to do so without a college degree (and frankly without an advanced degree beyond that) than ever before. Getting a college degree is simply the ante to get into that game today (as opposed to the end game itself). How many of us here would honestly tell our kids to not take a chance to play that game (even if they end up not winning 4 years later) when we have an increasingly have/have-not society?

Many of the "worthless" degrees actually do have value if you know you are going into graduate school. They can be good preparation. They are only "worthless" as an end of themselves.

How can we have 9 pages on this when the answer is obvious - in the sense that Ohio State is the flagship of Ohio or Georgia is the flagship of Georgia, the athletic program with state-wide dominance, NY has no flagship.

(06-02-2017 03:11 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-02-2017 01:13 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(06-02-2017 12:39 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Too many average students are sold the lie of college. No you can't major in psychology, history, Etnic-studies, etc...from an average college and expect an above average salary or worst yet even a job offer in a field close to your major. Even with the grade inflation...most employers aren't impressed you received a 3.80 GPA from Backwater St. U when you didn't have any rigor in school and you haven't gathered any relevant experience. So...graduate with a worthless degree...you are likely to make close to minimum wage after graduation.

I wish counselors would push more students into vocational training or the military. The former can give you a lifetime job that will pay well (and there is a critical need for skilled tradesmen) and the latter will help mature a student, give them an edge over most other job applicants, appreciate the freedom they have and provide vocational training or the opportunity to receive more training/schooling through the generous GI Bill.

I understand the general argument and agree that getting a "worthless degree" to the extent that it accumulates debt that cannot effectively be repaid is questionable. On the other hand, I think the growing questions about the viability of a college education overrates the attractiveness of vocational education and the trades. Going to trade school, for example, can cost as much as going to college and it's not an easy process to get signed on with a union that provides the compensation and benefits to pay off those trade school bills any more than it is to get a job out of college. These are also jobs that the average person isn't able to work in at older ages in the same manner as white collar jobs (which was fine when there was a robust pension system, but that doesn't exist today for the vast majority of people). It takes a certain type of a person to be successful in a vocation and it's exponentially the case that it takes a very certain type of person to be successful in the military. I think too many people are all too quick to suggest vocational training as a "no brainer" alternative to high school grads that are borderline college material (and there's definitely nothing that's "no brainer" about going to the military -- someone needs to be particularly committed to that field in order to enter it).

While college students should be more realistic about their job opportunities, the fact that a college degree is no longer the effective guarantee for a good job in the way that it was a generation or two ago doesn't mean that it's not worth it. Education level is still the single greatest determinant of income level in this country. If you want to get into the upper middle class into this country going forward, it's going to be even tougher to do so without a college degree (and frankly without an advanced degree beyond that) than ever before. Getting a college degree is simply the ante to get into that game today (as opposed to the end game itself). How many of us here would honestly tell our kids to not take a chance to play that game (even if they end up not winning 4 years later) when we have an increasingly have/have-not society?

Many of the "worthless" degrees actually do have value if you know you are going into graduate school. They can be good preparation. They are only "worthless" as an end of themselves.

Yes, that's true. Despite the focus on STEM degrees by many people today, the "S" (science) degrees actually aren't very employable at the undergrad level. (It's really and "T" and "E" that are getting hired along with the "M" people that also happen to have "T" and/or "E" skills.) Most people wouldn't knock biology as a "worthless degree", but biology majors have about as bad of undergrad job prospects as the "basket weaving" majors. However, a disproportionate number of medical and nursing school students will major in biology and the other science fields as preparation (and MDs and RNs are certainly very important for society).

(06-02-2017 02:37 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  

(06-02-2017 01:13 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(06-02-2017 12:39 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Too many average students are sold the lie of college. No you can't major in psychology, history, Etnic-studies, etc...from an average college and expect an above average salary or worst yet even a job offer in a field close to your major. Even with the grade inflation...most employers aren't impressed you received a 3.80 GPA from Backwater St. U when you didn't have any rigor in school and you haven't gathered any relevant experience. So...graduate with a worthless degree...you are likely to make close to minimum wage after graduation.

I wish counselors would push more students into vocational training or the military. The former can give you a lifetime job that will pay well (and there is a critical need for skilled tradesmen) and the latter will help mature a student, give them an edge over most other job applicants, appreciate the freedom they have and provide vocational training or the opportunity to receive more training/schooling through the generous GI Bill.

I understand the general argument and agree that getting a "worthless degree" to the extent that it accumulates debt that cannot effectively be repaid is questionable. On the other hand, I think the growing questions about the viability of a college education overrates the attractiveness of vocational education and the trades. Going to trade school, for example, can cost as much as going to college and it's not an easy process to get signed on with a union that provides the compensation and benefits to pay off those trade school bills any more than it is to get a job out of college. These are also jobs that the average person isn't able to work in at older ages in the same manner as white collar jobs (which was fine when there was a robust pension system, but that doesn't exist today for the vast majority of people). It takes a certain type of a person to be successful in a vocation and it's exponentially the case that it takes a very certain type of person to be successful in the military. I think too many people are all too quick to suggest vocational training as a "no brainer" alternative to high school grads that are borderline college material (and there's definitely nothing that's "no brainer" about going to the military -- someone needs to be particularly committed to that field in order to enter it).

While college students should be more realistic about their job opportunities, the fact that a college degree is no longer the effective guarantee for a good job in the way that it was a generation or two ago doesn't mean that it's not worth it. Education level is still the single greatest determinant of income level in this country. If you want to get into the upper middle class into this country going forward, it's going to be even tougher to do so without a college degree (and frankly without an advanced degree beyond that) than ever before. Getting a college degree is simply the ante to get into that game today (as opposed to the end game itself). How many of us here would honestly tell our kids to not take a chance to play that game (even if they end up not winning 4 years later) when we have an increasingly have/have-not society?

Sorry but your post is bunk. Vocational training doesn't even come close in cost to a 4 (now 4 or 6) year college degree. Most Vocational programs are for one or two years. As for jobs. Many who graduate from a Vocational school have jobs waiting for them. In the 80s and 90s, when everyone had to have a college degree a lot of jobs that required Vocational training went unfilled. As for Unions. So you know, most blue collar jobs are not union jobs any longer. I do agree that the military is not for everyone, but for a lot of the Millennial generation, lost in debt with their Women's Studies degree a bit of military discipline would have been a good thing.

College is not, and should not be for everyone. And don't get me started on the advanced degree crap, especially an MBA.

The problem is that a lot of people just loop in all vocations in the same brush in the same manner as they seem to loop in all college degrees in the same brush. Are there some vocations in higher demand right now? Sure. When the housing market heats up, for example, anyone related to the construction trades will be in high demand... but we also saw what happened to them in the 2008 timeframe when that market crashed and it wasn't pretty. Same thing with the fracking boom and bust, where parts of North Dakota went from small towns to the fastest-growing parts of the country with a ton of high-paying jobs for blue collar workers to ghost towns again in just a 5-year period when oil prices plummeted. By the same token, if you're graduating from a decent state school in computer science right now (we're not even talking about Stanford or MIT), you're looking at a fresh-out-of-college salary that's in the six figure range plus a huge stock grant. If you're majoring in accounting in those same decent state schools, you're also getting a high-paying job. The "women's studies" or "basket-weaving" trope is tiresome -- the most popular majors in the country across the board are the business majors (which are generally practical).

At the same time, it *does* take a certain sort of person to do well at a trade. I know it because I would be *terrible* at it. Calculus, stats and the most difficult classes that I had in law school were all easy to me compared to attempting anything more than a rudimentary plumbing issue in my house. Not everyone is well-suited to that type of job, so it doesn't make any more sense to push someone into a trade where they don't have that particular aptitude over going to college.

(06-02-2017 01:13 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(06-02-2017 12:39 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Too many average students are sold the lie of college. No you can't major in psychology, history, Etnic-studies, etc...from an average college and expect an above average salary or worst yet even a job offer in a field close to your major. Even with the grade inflation...most employers aren't impressed you received a 3.80 GPA from Backwater St. U when you didn't have any rigor in school and you haven't gathered any relevant experience. So...graduate with a worthless degree...you are likely to make close to minimum wage after graduation.

I wish counselors would push more students into vocational training or the military. The former can give you a lifetime job that will pay well (and there is a critical need for skilled tradesmen) and the latter will help mature a student, give them an edge over most other job applicants, appreciate the freedom they have and provide vocational training or the opportunity to receive more training/schooling through the generous GI Bill.

I understand the general argument and agree that getting a "worthless degree" to the extent that it accumulates debt that cannot effectively be repaid is questionable. On the other hand, I think the growing questions about the viability of a college education overrates the attractiveness of vocational education and the trades. Going to trade school, for example, can cost as much as going to college and it's not an easy process to get signed on with a union that provides the compensation and benefits to pay off those trade school bills any more than it is to get a job out of college. These are also jobs that the average person isn't able to work in at older ages in the same manner as white collar jobs (which was fine when there was a robust pension system, but that doesn't exist today for the vast majority of people). It takes a certain type of a person to be successful in a vocation and it's exponentially the case that it takes a very certain type of person to be successful in the military. I think too many people are all too quick to suggest vocational training as a "no brainer" alternative to high school grads that are borderline college material (and there's definitely nothing that's "no brainer" about going to the military -- someone needs to be particularly committed to that field in order to enter it).

While college students should be more realistic about their job opportunities, the fact that a college degree is no longer the effective guarantee for a good job in the way that it was a generation or two ago doesn't mean that it's not worth it. Education level is still the single greatest determinant of income level in this country. If you want to get into the upper middle class into this country going forward, it's going to be even tougher to do so without a college degree (and frankly without an advanced degree beyond that) than ever before. Getting a college degree is simply the ante to get into that game today (as opposed to the end game itself). How many of us here would honestly tell our kids to not take a chance to play that game (even if they end up not winning 4 years later) when we have an increasingly have/have-not society?

Frank...I respect your opinions greatly but your post is not based on reality. I have experience in education as a professor at a 4 year college, instructor/commander in the military in both classroom and in flight, and I'm currently attending vocational college in my 50s using my GI Bill.

If one is dedicated in the trades...they will be out in the field in their 20s to 40s but most with any work ethic and skill move onto supervisory positions as they enter middle age.

As far as the income play you suggest...many of these marginal college grads still won't ever approach upper middle income. I know plenty of skilled electricians, plumbers, HVAC technicians that make a solid living. As a benefit...they don't have call expensive plumbers/electricians, etc...to fix minor issues at their house.

The key to making money for most is discipline and consistency in keeping as much of what you earn in your 20s to 40s for your nest egg. Too many have no clue about saving money and investing and avoiding the debt trap.

(06-02-2017 03:11 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-02-2017 01:13 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(06-02-2017 12:39 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Too many average students are sold the lie of college. No you can't major in psychology, history, Etnic-studies, etc...from an average college and expect an above average salary or worst yet even a job offer in a field close to your major. Even with the grade inflation...most employers aren't impressed you received a 3.80 GPA from Backwater St. U when you didn't have any rigor in school and you haven't gathered any relevant experience. So...graduate with a worthless degree...you are likely to make close to minimum wage after graduation.

I wish counselors would push more students into vocational training or the military. The former can give you a lifetime job that will pay well (and there is a critical need for skilled tradesmen) and the latter will help mature a student, give them an edge over most other job applicants, appreciate the freedom they have and provide vocational training or the opportunity to receive more training/schooling through the generous GI Bill.

I understand the general argument and agree that getting a "worthless degree" to the extent that it accumulates debt that cannot effectively be repaid is questionable. On the other hand, I think the growing questions about the viability of a college education overrates the attractiveness of vocational education and the trades. Going to trade school, for example, can cost as much as going to college and it's not an easy process to get signed on with a union that provides the compensation and benefits to pay off those trade school bills any more than it is to get a job out of college. These are also jobs that the average person isn't able to work in at older ages in the same manner as white collar jobs (which was fine when there was a robust pension system, but that doesn't exist today for the vast majority of people). It takes a certain type of a person to be successful in a vocation and it's exponentially the case that it takes a very certain type of person to be successful in the military. I think too many people are all too quick to suggest vocational training as a "no brainer" alternative to high school grads that are borderline college material (and there's definitely nothing that's "no brainer" about going to the military -- someone needs to be particularly committed to that field in order to enter it).

While college students should be more realistic about their job opportunities, the fact that a college degree is no longer the effective guarantee for a good job in the way that it was a generation or two ago doesn't mean that it's not worth it. Education level is still the single greatest determinant of income level in this country. If you want to get into the upper middle class into this country going forward, it's going to be even tougher to do so without a college degree (and frankly without an advanced degree beyond that) than ever before. Getting a college degree is simply the ante to get into that game today (as opposed to the end game itself). How many of us here would honestly tell our kids to not take a chance to play that game (even if they end up not winning 4 years later) when we have an increasingly have/have-not society?

Many of the "worthless" degrees actually do have value if you know you are going into graduate school. They can be good preparation. They are only "worthless" as an end of themselves.

Don't agree...I have met plenty of bozos with M.A. degrees working marginal jobs. You get a B.A. in history...so then you get a M.A. in I.R. and then what? Universities and schools will never look at you if you don't fit their P.C. profile. Government jobs are left...and those are a real crap shoot too for hiring preference pitfalls and budget contstraints. Unless you are a natural salesmen...you will take some customer service type job and hope to move up.

(06-02-2017 03:18 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  How can we have 9 pages on this when the answer is obvious - in the sense that Ohio State is the flagship of Ohio or Georgia is the flagship of Georgia, the athletic program with state-wide dominance, NY has no flagship.

So Virginia Tech is the flagship of Virginia with the bigger football program?

I don't think it works that way.

(06-02-2017 10:30 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(06-02-2017 02:40 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  While I have some fond memories from college and while my real college will never be confused with Harvard or even an LSU or Oklahoma State, college slowed me down, especially given the craptasctic major I took. I'd have been better off working a burger job or even just living at home and taking up space over that time.

This is isn't 1935 anymore, most people have access to public libraries and book stores even if the Internet didn't exist or wasn't was big as it is. Anyways, I don't want to start yet another rant about how overrated college is but you no longer have to go to college to be intelligent or even have a higher paying job than average. That rhetoric is all we heard growing up in the 80's and 90's.

I definitely don't think that college is overrated. My college education has given me more than I could ever dream of both socially (in meeting my wife and my best friend) and professionally (in terms of job opportunities and financial security).

If you don't end up going to college as a traditional student you end up left behind socially which will hurt you more than a $70,000 school loan to pay when done.

There was a time when a lot of people were married by 18 and if you had gone to college there was pressure to be out working directly after college and married by 23.

Today it's a lot different. My cousin just graduated Georgia in Civil Engineering. She was in a sorority in college. Is she getting married right after graduation? Nope. How about entering the workforce? None of that. She is going on a two year church mission in Central America.

Anymore until one is 30 they are treated like a college age/grad school age person if they are in the workforce so they may as well be getting a PhD or Law school or something like that.

It was a concern that if they didn't enter the workforce they would have lost years of wages but are you better working for 8 years at 30,000 a year or going to school for 3 years and starting immediately at 80,000? It seems like the latter makes more sense then dealing directly in the adult work force at 22 or 23 years old.

(06-03-2017 02:16 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Frank...I respect your opinions greatly but your post is not based on reality. I have experience in education as a professor at a 4 year college, instructor/commander in the military in both classroom and in flight, and I'm currently attending vocational college in my 50s using my GI Bill.

If one is dedicated in the trades...they will be out in the field in their 20s to 40s but most with any work ethic and skill move onto supervisory positions as they enter middle age.

As far as the income play you suggest...many of these marginal college grads still won't ever approach upper middle income. I know plenty of skilled electricians, plumbers, HVAC technicians that make a solid living. As a benefit...they don't have call expensive plumbers/electricians, etc...to fix minor issues at their house.

The key to making money for most is discipline and consistency in keeping as much of what you earn in your 20s to 40s for your nest egg. Too many have no clue about saving money and investing and avoiding the debt trap.

What you are saying is someone with a good work ethic who saves can be successful without a degree.

But work ethic and mind set is tied to personality. Having the focus and concentration doesn't come naturally for everyone.

It's the same with these kids and their college degrees. Some of them don't have the right attitude for the workforce. There are a lot of nice guys out there that don't get anywhere.

Attitude. Work Ethic. Vision. Leadership. This is what you need to have a career. In the military they instill this into you day 1.

BS about being left behind socially.

You can make it without having a big office cubicle job or something where you make 100K. You can do stuff like not own a car or drive a fuel efficient one you use sparingly. Live where you can walk or make an easy commute to work and have every basic necessity close by. As the saying goes, work smarter, not harder.

This not to mention that it's not always wise to go to college right out of high school, especially if you don't know what you want to do in life. It really would have been better for at least 25% of all college students the past 25 years to not go to college and just work some BS job out of high school.

(06-03-2017 04:28 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  

(06-03-2017 02:16 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Frank...I respect your opinions greatly but your post is not based on reality. I have experience in education as a professor at a 4 year college, instructor/commander in the military in both classroom and in flight, and I'm currently attending vocational college in my 50s using my GI Bill.

If one is dedicated in the trades...they will be out in the field in their 20s to 40s but most with any work ethic and skill move onto supervisory positions as they enter middle age.

As far as the income play you suggest...many of these marginal college grads still won't ever approach upper middle income. I know plenty of skilled electricians, plumbers, HVAC technicians that make a solid living. As a benefit...they don't have call expensive plumbers/electricians, etc...to fix minor issues at their house.

The key to making money for most is discipline and consistency in keeping as much of what you earn in your 20s to 40s for your nest egg. Too many have no clue about saving money and investing and avoiding the debt trap.

What you are saying is someone with a good work ethic who saves can be successful without a degree.

But work ethic and mind set is tied to personality. Having the focus and concentration doesn't come naturally for everyone.

It's the same with these kids and their college degrees. Some of them don't have the right attitude for the workforce. There are a lot of nice guys out there that don't get anywhere.

Attitude. Work Ethic. Vision. Leadership. This is what you need to have a career. In the military they instill this into you day 1.

Eh, there's no one size fits all for everyone. There are plenty of hard working, dedicated people that can commit and do well if given the opportunity, college or not. As said before, college is merely a filter for applications these days in a lot of cases.

(06-03-2017 04:40 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  BS about being left behind socially.

You can make it without having a big office cubicle job or something where you make 100K. You can do stuff like not own a car or drive a fuel efficient one you use sparingly. Live where you can walk or make an easy commute to work and have every basic necessity close by. As the saying goes, work smarter, not harder.

Depends if you want to get laid.

I was listening on Sirius Radio on the Hard Rock station last year. They brought in guest DJ's who were former hard rock fans from the 80's.

One guy is on and said back in the 80's in New Jersey if you had a Van Halen or Quiet Riot look you could have a different woman every night. This guy said his job was mowing lawns. "Now you need to have a job and a nice car to get laid in New Jersey, it stinks."

Umm, I know a guy that got laid pretty regularly just working as a manager at Jimmy John's. Come on, if you wanna pull a super model or celebrity then yeah, you need all that flashy stuff but some girls out there like you for being just who you are as long as you have anything going for you. Imagine that...if she needs all of that, she probably isn't worth the time.

(06-03-2017 05:11 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  Umm, I know a guy that got laid pretty regularly just working as a manager at Jimmy John's. Come on, if you wanna pull a super model or celebrity then yeah, you need all that flashy stuff but some girls out there like you for being just who you are as long as you have anything going for you. Imagine that...if she needs all of that, she probably isn't worth the time.

I'm talking New Jersey lol where its spoiled rich girl world.

But more seriously you are right, much of the need to have the salaries is consumption driven.

I'm sure there are some nice girls in New Jersey that don't care about that.

You've clearly never been to NJ.......


(Relax everyone, I'm joking)

(06-03-2017 02:21 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  

(06-02-2017 03:11 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(06-02-2017 01:13 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  

(06-02-2017 12:39 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  Too many average students are sold the lie of college. No you can't major in psychology, history, Etnic-studies, etc...from an average college and expect an above average salary or worst yet even a job offer in a field close to your major. Even with the grade inflation...most employers aren't impressed you received a 3.80 GPA from Backwater St. U when you didn't have any rigor in school and you haven't gathered any relevant experience. So...graduate with a worthless degree...you are likely to make close to minimum wage after graduation.

I wish counselors would push more students into vocational training or the military. The former can give you a lifetime job that will pay well (and there is a critical need for skilled tradesmen) and the latter will help mature a student, give them an edge over most other job applicants, appreciate the freedom they have and provide vocational training or the opportunity to receive more training/schooling through the generous GI Bill.

I understand the general argument and agree that getting a "worthless degree" to the extent that it accumulates debt that cannot effectively be repaid is questionable. On the other hand, I think the growing questions about the viability of a college education overrates the attractiveness of vocational education and the trades. Going to trade school, for example, can cost as much as going to college and it's not an easy process to get signed on with a union that provides the compensation and benefits to pay off those trade school bills any more than it is to get a job out of college. These are also jobs that the average person isn't able to work in at older ages in the same manner as white collar jobs (which was fine when there was a robust pension system, but that doesn't exist today for the vast majority of people). It takes a certain type of a person to be successful in a vocation and it's exponentially the case that it takes a very certain type of person to be successful in the military. I think too many people are all too quick to suggest vocational training as a "no brainer" alternative to high school grads that are borderline college material (and there's definitely nothing that's "no brainer" about going to the military -- someone needs to be particularly committed to that field in order to enter it).

While college students should be more realistic about their job opportunities, the fact that a college degree is no longer the effective guarantee for a good job in the way that it was a generation or two ago doesn't mean that it's not worth it. Education level is still the single greatest determinant of income level in this country. If you want to get into the upper middle class into this country going forward, it's going to be even tougher to do so without a college degree (and frankly without an advanced degree beyond that) than ever before. Getting a college degree is simply the ante to get into that game today (as opposed to the end game itself). How many of us here would honestly tell our kids to not take a chance to play that game (even if they end up not winning 4 years later) when we have an increasingly have/have-not society?

Many of the "worthless" degrees actually do have value if you know you are going into graduate school. They can be good preparation. They are only "worthless" as an end of themselves.

Don't agree...I have met plenty of bozos with M.A. degrees working marginal jobs. You get a B.A. in history...so then you get a M.A. in I.R. and then what? Universities and schools will never look at you if you don't fit their P.C. profile. Government jobs are left...and those are a real crap shoot too for hiring preference pitfalls and budget contstraints. Unless you are a natural salesmen...you will take some customer service type job and hope to move up.

Well you can get a BS in English and an MBA or a BS in History and go on to Law School. Those are both good combinations.

(06-03-2017 04:40 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  BS about being left behind socially.

You can make it without having a big office cubicle job or something where you make 100K. You can do stuff like not own a car or drive a fuel efficient one you use sparingly. Live where you can walk or make an easy commute to work and have every basic necessity close by. As the saying goes, work smarter, not harder.

This not to mention that it's not always wise to go to college right out of high school, especially if you don't know what you want to do in life. It really would have been better for at least 25% of all college students the past 25 years to not go to college and just work some BS job out of high school.

That's true. I had a friend flunked out of UH. After a couple of years out working, he went back part time to a different school, was virtually straight As and went to work as a CPA and is doing well now. But he wasn't ready right out of school.

(06-03-2017 05:21 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  I'm talking New Jersey lol where its spoiled rich girl world.

Which exits in New Jersey are those? As a kind of no-go list?