(05-31-2017 03:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 12:31 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  Cal was the only coach to insulate recruiting from the ups/downs of local rankings. Pastner lived and died by how deep the local recruits were:

2009 ranking #113 (worse than Tubby's first class, BTW). Zero local 5-stars, two local 4-stars (that he didn't get).
2010 ranking #3. Got all three local 5's and 4's. The class that won him his extension and a lot of patience (thanks primarily to Joe).
2011 ranking #67. Got the one local 5, missed the two local 4's.
2012 ranking #49. Zero local 5's and missed the only local 4.
2013 ranking #3. Got the only local 5, and two of the four local 4's. (Of course, they all transferred out.)
2014 ranking #38. Zero local 5's and missed the two local 4's.
2015 ranking #10. Missed the local 5, got two of the three local 4's (thru daddy).

You can see that Pastner had 4 classes comparable in rankings to this year's class. Pastner had the 2 big classes in years that local recruiting was deep. And he had the other #10 class by hiring daddy. The 4 other years were all down years on the local scene, and Pastner averaged a class ranked #67 in those years.

The last 2 years have been the weakest two in Memphis going back 10 years. There have been zero 5's and only two 4's. Similar to Pastner in those down years, our recruiting has suffered. Now this may be coincidence, as Tubby may not target Memphis kids in even strong years. But it could be that the talent just hasn't been here. It's why the 2018 class will be very revealing for us.

People have to get it into their heads that the notion that this year's class is better than 2011's is pure nonsense. We signed Adonis who was in the top 20 in the nation, and Stan Simpson, who was on par with any of the jucos we signed this year.

In 2012, we signed another top 50 player in Shaq, and Geron who was also highly regarded, so that class is head and shoulders better than this one.

It is a joke that in your examples that you mention players transferring out to try and downgrade Pastner's classes. The 5 players that transferred out played a total of 10 seasons for us. Tubby's 6 transfers lasted 1 season. Tubby's transfer rate stands at a sparkling 75% after 1 season, but and he will luck out this year because Rivers is graduating and won't be able to transfer out.

Pastner
3 - 2010
3 - 2012
10 - 2015
38 - 2016
54 - Total

Tubby
2016 - 92
2017 - 55

Wake me up when Tubby manages to sign one decent class. Seriously.

Quote:2015 ranking #10. Missed the local 5, got two of the three local 4's (thru daddy).

Pastner took on Keelon who brought in 2 top 50 recruits, with the promise of more to come. Tubby took on his useless kid to recruit D2 players. For the life of me I don't know why anyone would bring up Pastner hiring Keelon as a means of defending Tubby.

It's really simple. People like to talk stars and rankings around here. So I gave you the stars and rankings. Now you want to put a lot of narrative and qualifiers with the stars and rankings. It's obvious where you're coming from.

As for transfers, if you really think Pastner only had 5 transfers, then you slept through some seasons.

And bringing up Keelon is not a way to defend Tubby. It's to point out how he got the ranking he did in his last year when things were obviously going south.

The overall point still stands. When the local class was deep, Pastner got favorable rankings. When it wasn't, he didn't. Now we all know he failed with doing much of anything with the players - regardless of the rankings. But his most highly regarded attribute still rose and fell with local players. And if you are at all interested in being fair, you will have to admit that local player rankings have been weak the past 2 years.

(05-31-2017 05:27 PM)presskh Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:04 PM)NigelTufnel Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 04:14 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 03:38 PM)FlyingTiger2016 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 03:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  People have to get it into their heads that the notion that this year's class is better than 2011's is pure nonsense. We signed Adonis who was in the top 20 in the nation, and Stan Simpson, who was on par with any of the jucos we signed this year.

In 2012, we signed another top 50 player in Shaq, and Geron who was also highly regarded, so that class is head and shoulders better than this one.

It is a joke that in your examples that you mention players transferring out to try and downgrade Pastner's classes. The 5 players that transferred out played a total of 10 seasons for us. Tubby's 6 transfers lasted 1 season. Tubby's transfer rate stands at a sparkling 75% after 1 season, but and he will luck out this year because Rivers is graduating and won't be able to transfer out.

Pastner
3 - 2010
3 - 2012
10 - 2015
38 - 2016
54 - Total

Tubby
2016 - 300?
2017 - 55

Wake me up when Tubby manages to sign one decent class. Seriously.


Pastner took on Keelon who brought in 2 top 50 recruits, with the promise of more to come. Tubby took on his useless kid to recruit D2 players. For the life of me I don't know why anyone would bring up Pastner hiring Keelon as a means of defending Tubby.

We aren't arguing that 2017 class is as better than the 2011 class. 247 says it is better. Now, it's true that 247's model does have issues, but most people still use it.

More important. This concept might help you. [1] Cherrypicking the the top three classes from seven years is rather meaningless statistically.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression...d_the_mean

You accusing me of cherry picking is bizarre to say the least considering that you have no qualms about completely ignoring basic facts that you know will blow your argument to smithereens.

Quote:2009 ranking #113 (worse than Tubby's first class, BTW). Zero local 5-stars, two local 4-stars (that he didn't get).

Pastner
Year 1 - Holds onto Coleman, brings in Elliot Williams as a transfer
Year 2 - Loses Sallie, Garcia and Niles, brings in the #3 class in the country

Tubby
Year 1 - Holds onto Rivers, brings in Rykhoek and Kessee as transfers
Year 2 - Loses Dedrick, KJ, Markell, Clergeot, Randall, brings in #55 class in the country

I would take every single one of Pastner's classes over any of Tubby's classes for the last ten years, including the ones that had the top 15 and top 44 player in their class that were laughably ranked lower than Tubby's class this year.

Does that qualify as cherry picking? Which of Tubby's classes from the last 10 years would you cherry pick as being any good at all?

Don't care ... I'll take Tubby over Pastner every day of the week.

Agree. If Tubby had taken over after Calipari, he would certainly have much better recruiting results than he has so far. Once a brand name loses its luster it takes time to rebuild both the recruiting and fan base.

He knows this but he is still on his defend Pastner at all costs crusade...

(05-31-2017 05:29 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 03:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 12:31 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  Cal was the only coach to insulate recruiting from the ups/downs of local rankings. Pastner lived and died by how deep the local recruits were:

2009 ranking #113 (worse than Tubby's first class, BTW). Zero local 5-stars, two local 4-stars (that he didn't get).
2010 ranking #3. Got all three local 5's and 4's. The class that won him his extension and a lot of patience (thanks primarily to Joe).
2011 ranking #67. Got the one local 5, missed the two local 4's.
2012 ranking #49. Zero local 5's and missed the only local 4.
2013 ranking #3. Got the only local 5, and two of the four local 4's. (Of course, they all transferred out.)
2014 ranking #38. Zero local 5's and missed the two local 4's.
2015 ranking #10. Missed the local 5, got two of the three local 4's (thru daddy).

You can see that Pastner had 4 classes comparable in rankings to this year's class. Pastner had the 2 big classes in years that local recruiting was deep. And he had the other #10 class by hiring daddy. The 4 other years were all down years on the local scene, and Pastner averaged a class ranked #67 in those years.

The last 2 years have been the weakest two in Memphis going back 10 years. There have been zero 5's and only two 4's. Similar to Pastner in those down years, our recruiting has suffered. Now this may be coincidence, as Tubby may not target Memphis kids in even strong years. But it could be that the talent just hasn't been here. It's why the 2018 class will be very revealing for us.

People have to get it into their heads that the notion that this year's class is better than 2011's is pure nonsense. We signed Adonis who was in the top 20 in the nation, and Stan Simpson, who was on par with any of the jucos we signed this year.

In 2012, we signed another top 50 player in Shaq, and Geron who was also highly regarded, so that class is head and shoulders better than this one.

It is a joke that in your examples that you mention players transferring out to try and downgrade Pastner's classes. The 5 players that transferred out played a total of 10 seasons for us. Tubby's 6 transfers lasted 1 season. Tubby's transfer rate stands at a sparkling 75% after 1 season, but and he will luck out this year because Rivers is graduating and won't be able to transfer out.

Pastner
3 - 2010
3 - 2012
10 - 2015
38 - 2016
54 - Total

Tubby
2016 - 92
2017 - 55

Wake me up when Tubby manages to sign one decent class. Seriously.

Quote:2015 ranking #10. Missed the local 5, got two of the three local 4's (thru daddy).

Pastner took on Keelon who brought in 2 top 50 recruits, with the promise of more to come. Tubby took on his useless kid to recruit D2 players. For the life of me I don't know why anyone would bring up Pastner hiring Keelon as a means of defending Tubby.

It's really simple. People like to talk stars and rankings around here. So I gave you the stars and rankings. Now you want to put a lot of narrative and qualifiers with the stars and rankings. It's obvious where you're coming from.

As for transfers, if you really think Pastner only had 5 transfers, then you slept through some seasons.

And bringing up Keelon is not a way to defend Tubby. It's to point out how he got the ranking he did in his last year when things were obviously going south.

The overall point still stands. When the local class was deep, Pastner got favorable rankings. When it wasn't, he didn't. Now we all know he failed with doing much of anything with the players - regardless of the rankings. But his most highly regarded attribute still rose and fell with local players. And if you are at all interested in being fair, you will have to admit that local player rankings have been weak the past 2 years.

At least Keelon did win a state championship on his own. Saul hasn't even had a job outside of his dad's staff. Keelon had enough sense NOT to offer a div 2 player and he sure as hell never lost a recruiting battle against Baptist Bible College.

Saul has always been a daddy's boy who has NEVER been able to do something on his own merit.

Minnesota wanted him gone after his DUI, TT would not allow him on bench coaching staff.

Even if Keelon did not have his sons and ties to other area talent. He has STILL ACCOMPLISHED more than Saul in his career.

(05-31-2017 05:39 PM)ncrdbl1 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:29 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 03:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 12:31 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  Cal was the only coach to insulate recruiting from the ups/downs of local rankings. Pastner lived and died by how deep the local recruits were:

2009 ranking #113 (worse than Tubby's first class, BTW). Zero local 5-stars, two local 4-stars (that he didn't get).
2010 ranking #3. Got all three local 5's and 4's. The class that won him his extension and a lot of patience (thanks primarily to Joe).
2011 ranking #67. Got the one local 5, missed the two local 4's.
2012 ranking #49. Zero local 5's and missed the only local 4.
2013 ranking #3. Got the only local 5, and two of the four local 4's. (Of course, they all transferred out.)
2014 ranking #38. Zero local 5's and missed the two local 4's.
2015 ranking #10. Missed the local 5, got two of the three local 4's (thru daddy).

You can see that Pastner had 4 classes comparable in rankings to this year's class. Pastner had the 2 big classes in years that local recruiting was deep. And he had the other #10 class by hiring daddy. The 4 other years were all down years on the local scene, and Pastner averaged a class ranked #67 in those years.

The last 2 years have been the weakest two in Memphis going back 10 years. There have been zero 5's and only two 4's. Similar to Pastner in those down years, our recruiting has suffered. Now this may be coincidence, as Tubby may not target Memphis kids in even strong years. But it could be that the talent just hasn't been here. It's why the 2018 class will be very revealing for us.

People have to get it into their heads that the notion that this year's class is better than 2011's is pure nonsense. We signed Adonis who was in the top 20 in the nation, and Stan Simpson, who was on par with any of the jucos we signed this year.

In 2012, we signed another top 50 player in Shaq, and Geron who was also highly regarded, so that class is head and shoulders better than this one.

It is a joke that in your examples that you mention players transferring out to try and downgrade Pastner's classes. The 5 players that transferred out played a total of 10 seasons for us. Tubby's 6 transfers lasted 1 season. Tubby's transfer rate stands at a sparkling 75% after 1 season, but and he will luck out this year because Rivers is graduating and won't be able to transfer out.

Pastner
3 - 2010
3 - 2012
10 - 2015
38 - 2016
54 - Total

Tubby
2016 - 92
2017 - 55

Wake me up when Tubby manages to sign one decent class. Seriously.

Quote:2015 ranking #10. Missed the local 5, got two of the three local 4's (thru daddy).

Pastner took on Keelon who brought in 2 top 50 recruits, with the promise of more to come. Tubby took on his useless kid to recruit D2 players. For the life of me I don't know why anyone would bring up Pastner hiring Keelon as a means of defending Tubby.

It's really simple. People like to talk stars and rankings around here. So I gave you the stars and rankings. Now you want to put a lot of narrative and qualifiers with the stars and rankings. It's obvious where you're coming from.

As for transfers, if you really think Pastner only had 5 transfers, then you slept through some seasons.

And bringing up Keelon is not a way to defend Tubby. It's to point out how he got the ranking he did in his last year when things were obviously going south.

The overall point still stands. When the local class was deep, Pastner got favorable rankings. When it wasn't, he didn't. Now we all know he failed with doing much of anything with the players - regardless of the rankings. But his most highly regarded attribute still rose and fell with local players. And if you are at all interested in being fair, you will have to admit that local player rankings have been weak the past 2 years.

At least Keelon did win a state championship on his own. Saul hasn't even had a job outside of his dad's staff. Keelon had enough sense NOT to offer a div 2 player and he sure as hell never lost a recruiting battle against Baptist Bible College.

Saul has always been a daddy's boy who has NEVER been able to do something on his own merit.

Minnesota wanted him gone after his DUI, TT would not allow him on bench coaching staff.

Even if Keelon did not have his sons and ties to other area talent. He has STILL ACCOMPLISHED more than Saul in his career.

Who do you blatantly lie? A simple lookup will show Saul worked for someone else before joining Tubby. At least Saul has been in the college ranks for over a decade. Keelon won at a high school level...there are lots of winning coaches in high school that never make it out of that level and there's usually a reason why.

(05-31-2017 05:39 PM)ncrdbl1 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:29 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 03:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 12:31 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  Cal was the only coach to insulate recruiting from the ups/downs of local rankings. Pastner lived and died by how deep the local recruits were:

2009 ranking #113 (worse than Tubby's first class, BTW). Zero local 5-stars, two local 4-stars (that he didn't get).
2010 ranking #3. Got all three local 5's and 4's. The class that won him his extension and a lot of patience (thanks primarily to Joe).
2011 ranking #67. Got the one local 5, missed the two local 4's.
2012 ranking #49. Zero local 5's and missed the only local 4.
2013 ranking #3. Got the only local 5, and two of the four local 4's. (Of course, they all transferred out.)
2014 ranking #38. Zero local 5's and missed the two local 4's.
2015 ranking #10. Missed the local 5, got two of the three local 4's (thru daddy).

You can see that Pastner had 4 classes comparable in rankings to this year's class. Pastner had the 2 big classes in years that local recruiting was deep. And he had the other #10 class by hiring daddy. The 4 other years were all down years on the local scene, and Pastner averaged a class ranked #67 in those years.

The last 2 years have been the weakest two in Memphis going back 10 years. There have been zero 5's and only two 4's. Similar to Pastner in those down years, our recruiting has suffered. Now this may be coincidence, as Tubby may not target Memphis kids in even strong years. But it could be that the talent just hasn't been here. It's why the 2018 class will be very revealing for us.

People have to get it into their heads that the notion that this year's class is better than 2011's is pure nonsense. We signed Adonis who was in the top 20 in the nation, and Stan Simpson, who was on par with any of the jucos we signed this year.

In 2012, we signed another top 50 player in Shaq, and Geron who was also highly regarded, so that class is head and shoulders better than this one.

It is a joke that in your examples that you mention players transferring out to try and downgrade Pastner's classes. The 5 players that transferred out played a total of 10 seasons for us. Tubby's 6 transfers lasted 1 season. Tubby's transfer rate stands at a sparkling 75% after 1 season, but and he will luck out this year because Rivers is graduating and won't be able to transfer out.

Pastner
3 - 2010
3 - 2012
10 - 2015
38 - 2016
54 - Total

Tubby
2016 - 92
2017 - 55

Wake me up when Tubby manages to sign one decent class. Seriously.

Quote:2015 ranking #10. Missed the local 5, got two of the three local 4's (thru daddy).

Pastner took on Keelon who brought in 2 top 50 recruits, with the promise of more to come. Tubby took on his useless kid to recruit D2 players. For the life of me I don't know why anyone would bring up Pastner hiring Keelon as a means of defending Tubby.

It's really simple. People like to talk stars and rankings around here. So I gave you the stars and rankings. Now you want to put a lot of narrative and qualifiers with the stars and rankings. It's obvious where you're coming from.

As for transfers, if you really think Pastner only had 5 transfers, then you slept through some seasons.

And bringing up Keelon is not a way to defend Tubby. It's to point out how he got the ranking he did in his last year when things were obviously going south.

The overall point still stands. When the local class was deep, Pastner got favorable rankings. When it wasn't, he didn't. Now we all know he failed with doing much of anything with the players - regardless of the rankings. But his most highly regarded attribute still rose and fell with local players. And if you are at all interested in being fair, you will have to admit that local player rankings have been weak the past 2 years.

At least Keelon did win a state championship on his own. Saul hasn't even had a job outside of his dad's staff. Keelon had enough sense NOT to offer a div 2 player and he sure as hell never lost a recruiting battle against Baptist Bible College.

Saul has always been a daddy's boy who has NEVER been able to do something on his own merit.

Minnesota wanted him gone after his DUI, TT would not allow him on bench coaching staff.

Even if Keelon did not have his sons and ties to other area talent. He has STILL ACCOMPLISHED more than Saul in his career.

I hate how you just say stuff when google is at your disposal. Saul Smith served as an assistant coach at Tennessee Tech 2004-2007.

(05-31-2017 06:02 PM)M1T4 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:39 PM)ncrdbl1 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:29 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 03:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 12:31 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  Cal was the only coach to insulate recruiting from the ups/downs of local rankings. Pastner lived and died by how deep the local recruits were:

2009 ranking #113 (worse than Tubby's first class, BTW). Zero local 5-stars, two local 4-stars (that he didn't get).
2010 ranking #3. Got all three local 5's and 4's. The class that won him his extension and a lot of patience (thanks primarily to Joe).
2011 ranking #67. Got the one local 5, missed the two local 4's.
2012 ranking #49. Zero local 5's and missed the only local 4.
2013 ranking #3. Got the only local 5, and two of the four local 4's. (Of course, they all transferred out.)
2014 ranking #38. Zero local 5's and missed the two local 4's.
2015 ranking #10. Missed the local 5, got two of the three local 4's (thru daddy).

You can see that Pastner had 4 classes comparable in rankings to this year's class. Pastner had the 2 big classes in years that local recruiting was deep. And he had the other #10 class by hiring daddy. The 4 other years were all down years on the local scene, and Pastner averaged a class ranked #67 in those years.

The last 2 years have been the weakest two in Memphis going back 10 years. There have been zero 5's and only two 4's. Similar to Pastner in those down years, our recruiting has suffered. Now this may be coincidence, as Tubby may not target Memphis kids in even strong years. But it could be that the talent just hasn't been here. It's why the 2018 class will be very revealing for us.

People have to get it into their heads that the notion that this year's class is better than 2011's is pure nonsense. We signed Adonis who was in the top 20 in the nation, and Stan Simpson, who was on par with any of the jucos we signed this year.

In 2012, we signed another top 50 player in Shaq, and Geron who was also highly regarded, so that class is head and shoulders better than this one.

It is a joke that in your examples that you mention players transferring out to try and downgrade Pastner's classes. The 5 players that transferred out played a total of 10 seasons for us. Tubby's 6 transfers lasted 1 season. Tubby's transfer rate stands at a sparkling 75% after 1 season, but and he will luck out this year because Rivers is graduating and won't be able to transfer out.

Pastner
3 - 2010
3 - 2012
10 - 2015
38 - 2016
54 - Total

Tubby
2016 - 92
2017 - 55

Wake me up when Tubby manages to sign one decent class. Seriously.

Quote:2015 ranking #10. Missed the local 5, got two of the three local 4's (thru daddy).

Pastner took on Keelon who brought in 2 top 50 recruits, with the promise of more to come. Tubby took on his useless kid to recruit D2 players. For the life of me I don't know why anyone would bring up Pastner hiring Keelon as a means of defending Tubby.

It's really simple. People like to talk stars and rankings around here. So I gave you the stars and rankings. Now you want to put a lot of narrative and qualifiers with the stars and rankings. It's obvious where you're coming from.

As for transfers, if you really think Pastner only had 5 transfers, then you slept through some seasons.

And bringing up Keelon is not a way to defend Tubby. It's to point out how he got the ranking he did in his last year when things were obviously going south.

The overall point still stands. When the local class was deep, Pastner got favorable rankings. When it wasn't, he didn't. Now we all know he failed with doing much of anything with the players - regardless of the rankings. But his most highly regarded attribute still rose and fell with local players. And if you are at all interested in being fair, you will have to admit that local player rankings have been weak the past 2 years.

At least Keelon did win a state championship on his own. Saul hasn't even had a job outside of his dad's staff. Keelon had enough sense NOT to offer a div 2 player and he sure as hell never lost a recruiting battle against Baptist Bible College.

Saul has always been a daddy's boy who has NEVER been able to do something on his own merit.

Minnesota wanted him gone after his DUI, TT would not allow him on bench coaching staff.

Even if Keelon did not have his sons and ties to other area talent. He has STILL ACCOMPLISHED more than Saul in his career.

I hate how you just say stuff when google is at your disposal. Saul Smith served as an assistant coach at Tennessee Tech 2004-2007.

Assistant coach at D1 level doesn't mean much nowadays apparently. Comparing high school coaching career to college is silliness at its best

(05-31-2017 06:00 PM)tiger1016 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:39 PM)ncrdbl1 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:29 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 03:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 12:31 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  Cal was the only coach to insulate recruiting from the ups/downs of local rankings. Pastner lived and died by how deep the local recruits were:

2009 ranking #113 (worse than Tubby's first class, BTW). Zero local 5-stars, two local 4-stars (that he didn't get).
2010 ranking #3. Got all three local 5's and 4's. The class that won him his extension and a lot of patience (thanks primarily to Joe).
2011 ranking #67. Got the one local 5, missed the two local 4's.
2012 ranking #49. Zero local 5's and missed the only local 4.
2013 ranking #3. Got the only local 5, and two of the four local 4's. (Of course, they all transferred out.)
2014 ranking #38. Zero local 5's and missed the two local 4's.
2015 ranking #10. Missed the local 5, got two of the three local 4's (thru daddy).

You can see that Pastner had 4 classes comparable in rankings to this year's class. Pastner had the 2 big classes in years that local recruiting was deep. And he had the other #10 class by hiring daddy. The 4 other years were all down years on the local scene, and Pastner averaged a class ranked #67 in those years.

The last 2 years have been the weakest two in Memphis going back 10 years. There have been zero 5's and only two 4's. Similar to Pastner in those down years, our recruiting has suffered. Now this may be coincidence, as Tubby may not target Memphis kids in even strong years. But it could be that the talent just hasn't been here. It's why the 2018 class will be very revealing for us.

People have to get it into their heads that the notion that this year's class is better than 2011's is pure nonsense. We signed Adonis who was in the top 20 in the nation, and Stan Simpson, who was on par with any of the jucos we signed this year.

In 2012, we signed another top 50 player in Shaq, and Geron who was also highly regarded, so that class is head and shoulders better than this one.

It is a joke that in your examples that you mention players transferring out to try and downgrade Pastner's classes. The 5 players that transferred out played a total of 10 seasons for us. Tubby's 6 transfers lasted 1 season. Tubby's transfer rate stands at a sparkling 75% after 1 season, but and he will luck out this year because Rivers is graduating and won't be able to transfer out.

Pastner
3 - 2010
3 - 2012
10 - 2015
38 - 2016
54 - Total

Tubby
2016 - 92
2017 - 55

Wake me up when Tubby manages to sign one decent class. Seriously.

Quote:2015 ranking #10. Missed the local 5, got two of the three local 4's (thru daddy).

Pastner took on Keelon who brought in 2 top 50 recruits, with the promise of more to come. Tubby took on his useless kid to recruit D2 players. For the life of me I don't know why anyone would bring up Pastner hiring Keelon as a means of defending Tubby.

It's really simple. People like to talk stars and rankings around here. So I gave you the stars and rankings. Now you want to put a lot of narrative and qualifiers with the stars and rankings. It's obvious where you're coming from.

As for transfers, if you really think Pastner only had 5 transfers, then you slept through some seasons.

And bringing up Keelon is not a way to defend Tubby. It's to point out how he got the ranking he did in his last year when things were obviously going south.

The overall point still stands. When the local class was deep, Pastner got favorable rankings. When it wasn't, he didn't. Now we all know he failed with doing much of anything with the players - regardless of the rankings. But his most highly regarded attribute still rose and fell with local players. And if you are at all interested in being fair, you will have to admit that local player rankings have been weak the past 2 years.

At least Keelon did win a state championship on his own. Saul hasn't even had a job outside of his dad's staff. Keelon had enough sense NOT to offer a div 2 player and he sure as hell never lost a recruiting battle against Baptist Bible College.

Saul has always been a daddy's boy who has NEVER been able to do something on his own merit.

Minnesota wanted him gone after his DUI, TT would not allow him on bench coaching staff.

Even if Keelon did not have his sons and ties to other area talent. He has STILL ACCOMPLISHED more than Saul in his career.

Who do you blatantly lie? A simple lookup will show Saul worked for someone else before joining Tubby. At least Saul has been in the college ranks for over a decade. Keelon won at a high school level...there are lots of winning coaches in high school that never make it out of that level and there's usually a reason why.

Lol we both called him out on that

(05-31-2017 06:02 PM)tiger1016 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 06:02 PM)M1T4 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:39 PM)ncrdbl1 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:29 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 03:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  People have to get it into their heads that the notion that this year's class is better than 2011's is pure nonsense. We signed Adonis who was in the top 20 in the nation, and Stan Simpson, who was on par with any of the jucos we signed this year.

In 2012, we signed another top 50 player in Shaq, and Geron who was also highly regarded, so that class is head and shoulders better than this one.

It is a joke that in your examples that you mention players transferring out to try and downgrade Pastner's classes. The 5 players that transferred out played a total of 10 seasons for us. Tubby's 6 transfers lasted 1 season. Tubby's transfer rate stands at a sparkling 75% after 1 season, but and he will luck out this year because Rivers is graduating and won't be able to transfer out.

Pastner
3 - 2010
3 - 2012
10 - 2015
38 - 2016
54 - Total

Tubby
2016 - 92
2017 - 55

Wake me up when Tubby manages to sign one decent class. Seriously.


Pastner took on Keelon who brought in 2 top 50 recruits, with the promise of more to come. Tubby took on his useless kid to recruit D2 players. For the life of me I don't know why anyone would bring up Pastner hiring Keelon as a means of defending Tubby.

It's really simple. People like to talk stars and rankings around here. So I gave you the stars and rankings. Now you want to put a lot of narrative and qualifiers with the stars and rankings. It's obvious where you're coming from.

As for transfers, if you really think Pastner only had 5 transfers, then you slept through some seasons.

And bringing up Keelon is not a way to defend Tubby. It's to point out how he got the ranking he did in his last year when things were obviously going south.

The overall point still stands. When the local class was deep, Pastner got favorable rankings. When it wasn't, he didn't. Now we all know he failed with doing much of anything with the players - regardless of the rankings. But his most highly regarded attribute still rose and fell with local players. And if you are at all interested in being fair, you will have to admit that local player rankings have been weak the past 2 years.

At least Keelon did win a state championship on his own. Saul hasn't even had a job outside of his dad's staff. Keelon had enough sense NOT to offer a div 2 player and he sure as hell never lost a recruiting battle against Baptist Bible College.

Saul has always been a daddy's boy who has NEVER been able to do something on his own merit.

Minnesota wanted him gone after his DUI, TT would not allow him on bench coaching staff.

Even if Keelon did not have his sons and ties to other area talent. He has STILL ACCOMPLISHED more than Saul in his career.

I hate how you just say stuff when google is at your disposal. Saul Smith served as an assistant coach at Tennessee Tech 2004-2007.

Assistant coach at D1 level doesn't mean much nowadays apparently. Comparing high school coaching career to college is silliness at its best

Pure silliness on race car guy's part. Maybe if Keelon steadily worked the process of moving up in the college ranks instead of forcing himself up the ladder. He clearly isn't capable to handle it yet.

(05-31-2017 05:29 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 03:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 12:31 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  Cal was the only coach to insulate recruiting from the ups/downs of local rankings. Pastner lived and died by how deep the local recruits were:

2009 ranking #113 (worse than Tubby's first class, BTW). Zero local 5-stars, two local 4-stars (that he didn't get).
2010 ranking #3. Got all three local 5's and 4's. The class that won him his extension and a lot of patience (thanks primarily to Joe).
2011 ranking #67. Got the one local 5, missed the two local 4's.
2012 ranking #49. Zero local 5's and missed the only local 4.
2013 ranking #3. Got the only local 5, and two of the four local 4's. (Of course, they all transferred out.)
2014 ranking #38. Zero local 5's and missed the two local 4's.
2015 ranking #10. Missed the local 5, got two of the three local 4's (thru daddy).

You can see that Pastner had 4 classes comparable in rankings to this year's class. Pastner had the 2 big classes in years that local recruiting was deep. And he had the other #10 class by hiring daddy. The 4 other years were all down years on the local scene, and Pastner averaged a class ranked #67 in those years.

The last 2 years have been the weakest two in Memphis going back 10 years. There have been zero 5's and only two 4's. Similar to Pastner in those down years, our recruiting has suffered. Now this may be coincidence, as Tubby may not target Memphis kids in even strong years. But it could be that the talent just hasn't been here. It's why the 2018 class will be very revealing for us.

People have to get it into their heads that the notion that this year's class is better than 2011's is pure nonsense. We signed Adonis who was in the top 20 in the nation, and Stan Simpson, who was on par with any of the jucos we signed this year.

In 2012, we signed another top 50 player in Shaq, and Geron who was also highly regarded, so that class is head and shoulders better than this one.

It is a joke that in your examples that you mention players transferring out to try and downgrade Pastner's classes. The 5 players that transferred out played a total of 10 seasons for us. Tubby's 6 transfers lasted 1 season. Tubby's transfer rate stands at a sparkling 75% after 1 season, but and he will luck out this year because Rivers is graduating and won't be able to transfer out.

Pastner
3 - 2010
3 - 2012
10 - 2015
38 - 2016
54 - Total

Tubby
2016 - 92
2017 - 55

Wake me up when Tubby manages to sign one decent class. Seriously.

Quote:2015 ranking #10. Missed the local 5, got two of the three local 4's (thru daddy).

Pastner took on Keelon who brought in 2 top 50 recruits, with the promise of more to come. Tubby took on his useless kid to recruit D2 players. For the life of me I don't know why anyone would bring up Pastner hiring Keelon as a means of defending Tubby.

It's really simple. People like to talk stars and rankings around here. So I gave you the stars and rankings. Now you want to put a lot of narrative and qualifiers with the stars and rankings. It's obvious where you're coming from.

As for transfers, if you really think Pastner only had 5 transfers, then you slept through some seasons.

And bringing up Keelon is not a way to defend Tubby. It's to point out how he got the ranking he did in his last year when things were obviously going south.

The overall point still stands. When the local class was deep, Pastner got favorable rankings. When it wasn't, he didn't. Now we all know he failed with doing much of anything with the players - regardless of the rankings. But his most highly regarded attribute still rose and fell with local players. And if you are at all interested in being fair, you will have to admit that local player rankings have been weak the past 2 years.

The reasonable thing to do for Tubby lovers when recruiting is brought up, is to walk away. Instead, you guys come up with half baked mumbo jumbo saying stuff like this only happened because of this, or this doesn't count because of that and that or if that wouldn't have happened blah blah blah blah blah.

So I'm just going to end this nonsense right now.

Recruit Rankings Since 2009
PASTNER
5* - 5
4* - 15

TUBBY
5* - 1
4* - 2

I hope this ends this ridiculous debate, and yes, even though Pastner didn't get the best out of his players we are comparing a neophyte who hadn't even been a lead assistant to an supposed HOF who was 57 years old and had 18 (EIGHTEEN) years experience as a head coach when Pastner was hired at Memphis.

And Pastner won 2 NCAA games and Tubby won 1 during that period.

(05-31-2017 06:00 PM)tiger1016 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:39 PM)ncrdbl1 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:29 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 03:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 12:31 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  Cal was the only coach to insulate recruiting from the ups/downs of local rankings. Pastner lived and died by how deep the local recruits were:

2009 ranking #113 (worse than Tubby's first class, BTW). Zero local 5-stars, two local 4-stars (that he didn't get).
2010 ranking #3. Got all three local 5's and 4's. The class that won him his extension and a lot of patience (thanks primarily to Joe).
2011 ranking #67. Got the one local 5, missed the two local 4's.
2012 ranking #49. Zero local 5's and missed the only local 4.
2013 ranking #3. Got the only local 5, and two of the four local 4's. (Of course, they all transferred out.)
2014 ranking #38. Zero local 5's and missed the two local 4's.
2015 ranking #10. Missed the local 5, got two of the three local 4's (thru daddy).

You can see that Pastner had 4 classes comparable in rankings to this year's class. Pastner had the 2 big classes in years that local recruiting was deep. And he had the other #10 class by hiring daddy. The 4 other years were all down years on the local scene, and Pastner averaged a class ranked #67 in those years.

The last 2 years have been the weakest two in Memphis going back 10 years. There have been zero 5's and only two 4's. Similar to Pastner in those down years, our recruiting has suffered. Now this may be coincidence, as Tubby may not target Memphis kids in even strong years. But it could be that the talent just hasn't been here. It's why the 2018 class will be very revealing for us.

People have to get it into their heads that the notion that this year's class is better than 2011's is pure nonsense. We signed Adonis who was in the top 20 in the nation, and Stan Simpson, who was on par with any of the jucos we signed this year.

In 2012, we signed another top 50 player in Shaq, and Geron who was also highly regarded, so that class is head and shoulders better than this one.

It is a joke that in your examples that you mention players transferring out to try and downgrade Pastner's classes. The 5 players that transferred out played a total of 10 seasons for us. Tubby's 6 transfers lasted 1 season. Tubby's transfer rate stands at a sparkling 75% after 1 season, but and he will luck out this year because Rivers is graduating and won't be able to transfer out.

Pastner
3 - 2010
3 - 2012
10 - 2015
38 - 2016
54 - Total

Tubby
2016 - 92
2017 - 55

Wake me up when Tubby manages to sign one decent class. Seriously.

Quote:2015 ranking #10. Missed the local 5, got two of the three local 4's (thru daddy).

Pastner took on Keelon who brought in 2 top 50 recruits, with the promise of more to come. Tubby took on his useless kid to recruit D2 players. For the life of me I don't know why anyone would bring up Pastner hiring Keelon as a means of defending Tubby.

It's really simple. People like to talk stars and rankings around here. So I gave you the stars and rankings. Now you want to put a lot of narrative and qualifiers with the stars and rankings. It's obvious where you're coming from.

As for transfers, if you really think Pastner only had 5 transfers, then you slept through some seasons.

And bringing up Keelon is not a way to defend Tubby. It's to point out how he got the ranking he did in his last year when things were obviously going south.

The overall point still stands. When the local class was deep, Pastner got favorable rankings. When it wasn't, he didn't. Now we all know he failed with doing much of anything with the players - regardless of the rankings. But his most highly regarded attribute still rose and fell with local players. And if you are at all interested in being fair, you will have to admit that local player rankings have been weak the past 2 years.

At least Keelon did win a state championship on his own. Saul hasn't even had a job outside of his dad's staff. Keelon had enough sense NOT to offer a div 2 player and he sure as hell never lost a recruiting battle against Baptist Bible College.

Saul has always been a daddy's boy who has NEVER been able to do something on his own merit.

Minnesota wanted him gone after his DUI, TT would not allow him on bench coaching staff.

Even if Keelon did not have his sons and ties to other area talent. He has STILL ACCOMPLISHED more than Saul in his career.

Who do you blatantly lie? A simple lookup will show Saul worked for someone else before joining Tubby. At least Saul has been in the college ranks for over a decade. Keelon won at a high school level...there are lots of winning coaches in high school that never make it out of that level and there's usually a reason why.

And Keelon was responsible for bringing in more high quality recruits than Saul has in 10 years.

(05-31-2017 08:45 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 06:00 PM)tiger1016 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:39 PM)ncrdbl1 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:29 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 03:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  People have to get it into their heads that the notion that this year's class is better than 2011's is pure nonsense. We signed Adonis who was in the top 20 in the nation, and Stan Simpson, who was on par with any of the jucos we signed this year.

In 2012, we signed another top 50 player in Shaq, and Geron who was also highly regarded, so that class is head and shoulders better than this one.

It is a joke that in your examples that you mention players transferring out to try and downgrade Pastner's classes. The 5 players that transferred out played a total of 10 seasons for us. Tubby's 6 transfers lasted 1 season. Tubby's transfer rate stands at a sparkling 75% after 1 season, but and he will luck out this year because Rivers is graduating and won't be able to transfer out.

Pastner
3 - 2010
3 - 2012
10 - 2015
38 - 2016
54 - Total

Tubby
2016 - 92
2017 - 55

Wake me up when Tubby manages to sign one decent class. Seriously.


Pastner took on Keelon who brought in 2 top 50 recruits, with the promise of more to come. Tubby took on his useless kid to recruit D2 players. For the life of me I don't know why anyone would bring up Pastner hiring Keelon as a means of defending Tubby.

It's really simple. People like to talk stars and rankings around here. So I gave you the stars and rankings. Now you want to put a lot of narrative and qualifiers with the stars and rankings. It's obvious where you're coming from.

As for transfers, if you really think Pastner only had 5 transfers, then you slept through some seasons.

And bringing up Keelon is not a way to defend Tubby. It's to point out how he got the ranking he did in his last year when things were obviously going south.

The overall point still stands. When the local class was deep, Pastner got favorable rankings. When it wasn't, he didn't. Now we all know he failed with doing much of anything with the players - regardless of the rankings. But his most highly regarded attribute still rose and fell with local players. And if you are at all interested in being fair, you will have to admit that local player rankings have been weak the past 2 years.

At least Keelon did win a state championship on his own. Saul hasn't even had a job outside of his dad's staff. Keelon had enough sense NOT to offer a div 2 player and he sure as hell never lost a recruiting battle against Baptist Bible College.

Saul has always been a daddy's boy who has NEVER been able to do something on his own merit.

Minnesota wanted him gone after his DUI, TT would not allow him on bench coaching staff.

Even if Keelon did not have his sons and ties to other area talent. He has STILL ACCOMPLISHED more than Saul in his career.

Who do you blatantly lie? A simple lookup will show Saul worked for someone else before joining Tubby. At least Saul has been in the college ranks for over a decade. Keelon won at a high school level...there are lots of winning coaches in high school that never make it out of that level and there's usually a reason why.

And Keelon was responsible for bringing in more high quality recruits than Saul has in 10 years.

LOL
I missed where those recruits helped us get to the postseason the last 2 years.

(05-31-2017 05:27 PM)presskh Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:04 PM)NigelTufnel Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 04:14 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 03:38 PM)FlyingTiger2016 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 03:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  People have to get it into their heads that the notion that this year's class is better than 2011's is pure nonsense. We signed Adonis who was in the top 20 in the nation, and Stan Simpson, who was on par with any of the jucos we signed this year.

In 2012, we signed another top 50 player in Shaq, and Geron who was also highly regarded, so that class is head and shoulders better than this one.

It is a joke that in your examples that you mention players transferring out to try and downgrade Pastner's classes. The 5 players that transferred out played a total of 10 seasons for us. Tubby's 6 transfers lasted 1 season. Tubby's transfer rate stands at a sparkling 75% after 1 season, but and he will luck out this year because Rivers is graduating and won't be able to transfer out.

Pastner
3 - 2010
3 - 2012
10 - 2015
38 - 2016
54 - Total

Tubby
2016 - 300?
2017 - 55

Wake me up when Tubby manages to sign one decent class. Seriously.


Pastner took on Keelon who brought in 2 top 50 recruits, with the promise of more to come. Tubby took on his useless kid to recruit D2 players. For the life of me I don't know why anyone would bring up Pastner hiring Keelon as a means of defending Tubby.

We aren't arguing that 2017 class is as better than the 2011 class. 247 says it is better. Now, it's true that 247's model does have issues, but most people still use it.

More important. This concept might help you. [1] Cherrypicking the the top three classes from seven years is rather meaningless statistically.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression...d_the_mean

You accusing me of cherry picking is bizarre to say the least considering that you have no qualms about completely ignoring basic facts that you know will blow your argument to smithereens.

Quote:2009 ranking #113 (worse than Tubby's first class, BTW). Zero local 5-stars, two local 4-stars (that he didn't get).

Pastner
Year 1 - Holds onto Coleman, brings in Elliot Williams as a transfer
Year 2 - Loses Sallie, Garcia and Niles, brings in the #3 class in the country

Tubby
Year 1 - Holds onto Rivers, brings in Rykhoek and Kessee as transfers
Year 2 - Loses Dedrick, KJ, Markell, Clergeot, Randall, brings in #55 class in the country

I would take every single one of Pastner's classes over any of Tubby's classes for the last ten years, including the ones that had the top 15 and top 44 player in their class that were laughably ranked lower than Tubby's class this year.

Does that qualify as cherry picking? Which of Tubby's classes from the last 10 years would you cherry pick as being any good at all?

Don't care ... I'll take Tubby over Pastner every day of the week.

Agree. If Tubby had taken over after Calipari, he would certainly have much better recruiting results than he has so far. Once a brand name loses its luster it takes time to rebuild both the recruiting and fan base.

That's a really good point and everybody should believe it because Tubby basically told everyone that we have a crappy brand that he has to rebuild and that it is next to impossible to recruit at Memphis when you are going up against juggernauts like Western Kentucky and Missouri.

2017 Rivals Rankings

6 Alabama
2017 - 19-15, no NCAA
2016 - 18-15
2015 - 19-15
Last NCAA appearance was in 2012, the last one before that was 2006

7 Missouri
2017 - 8-24
2016 - 10-21
2015 - 9-23

8 Western Kentucky
2017 - 15-17
2016 - 18-16
2015 - 20-12
Last NCAA appearance was in 2013

14 Stanford
2017 - 14-17
2016 - 15-15
2015 - 24-13
Last NCAA appearance was in 2014, before that was in 2008

15 UNLV
2017 - 11-21
2016 - 18-15
2015 - 18-15
2014 - 20-13
Last NCAA appearance was in 2013

(05-31-2017 06:00 PM)tiger1016 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:39 PM)ncrdbl1 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:29 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 03:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 12:31 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  Cal was the only coach to insulate recruiting from the ups/downs of local rankings. Pastner lived and died by how deep the local recruits were:

2009 ranking #113 (worse than Tubby's first class, BTW). Zero local 5-stars, two local 4-stars (that he didn't get).
2010 ranking #3. Got all three local 5's and 4's. The class that won him his extension and a lot of patience (thanks primarily to Joe).
2011 ranking #67. Got the one local 5, missed the two local 4's.
2012 ranking #49. Zero local 5's and missed the only local 4.
2013 ranking #3. Got the only local 5, and two of the four local 4's. (Of course, they all transferred out.)
2014 ranking #38. Zero local 5's and missed the two local 4's.
2015 ranking #10. Missed the local 5, got two of the three local 4's (thru daddy).

You can see that Pastner had 4 classes comparable in rankings to this year's class. Pastner had the 2 big classes in years that local recruiting was deep. And he had the other #10 class by hiring daddy. The 4 other years were all down years on the local scene, and Pastner averaged a class ranked #67 in those years.

The last 2 years have been the weakest two in Memphis going back 10 years. There have been zero 5's and only two 4's. Similar to Pastner in those down years, our recruiting has suffered. Now this may be coincidence, as Tubby may not target Memphis kids in even strong years. But it could be that the talent just hasn't been here. It's why the 2018 class will be very revealing for us.

People have to get it into their heads that the notion that this year's class is better than 2011's is pure nonsense. We signed Adonis who was in the top 20 in the nation, and Stan Simpson, who was on par with any of the jucos we signed this year.

In 2012, we signed another top 50 player in Shaq, and Geron who was also highly regarded, so that class is head and shoulders better than this one.

It is a joke that in your examples that you mention players transferring out to try and downgrade Pastner's classes. The 5 players that transferred out played a total of 10 seasons for us. Tubby's 6 transfers lasted 1 season. Tubby's transfer rate stands at a sparkling 75% after 1 season, but and he will luck out this year because Rivers is graduating and won't be able to transfer out.

Pastner
3 - 2010
3 - 2012
10 - 2015
38 - 2016
54 - Total

Tubby
2016 - 92
2017 - 55

Wake me up when Tubby manages to sign one decent class. Seriously.

Quote:2015 ranking #10. Missed the local 5, got two of the three local 4's (thru daddy).

Pastner took on Keelon who brought in 2 top 50 recruits, with the promise of more to come. Tubby took on his useless kid to recruit D2 players. For the life of me I don't know why anyone would bring up Pastner hiring Keelon as a means of defending Tubby.

It's really simple. People like to talk stars and rankings around here. So I gave you the stars and rankings. Now you want to put a lot of narrative and qualifiers with the stars and rankings. It's obvious where you're coming from.

As for transfers, if you really think Pastner only had 5 transfers, then you slept through some seasons.

And bringing up Keelon is not a way to defend Tubby. It's to point out how he got the ranking he did in his last year when things were obviously going south.

The overall point still stands. When the local class was deep, Pastner got favorable rankings. When it wasn't, he didn't. Now we all know he failed with doing much of anything with the players - regardless of the rankings. But his most highly regarded attribute still rose and fell with local players. And if you are at all interested in being fair, you will have to admit that local player rankings have been weak the past 2 years.

At least Keelon did win a state championship on his own. Saul hasn't even had a job outside of his dad's staff. Keelon had enough sense NOT to offer a div 2 player and he sure as hell never lost a recruiting battle against Baptist Bible College.

Saul has always been a daddy's boy who has NEVER been able to do something on his own merit.

Minnesota wanted him gone after his DUI, TT would not allow him on bench coaching staff.

Even if Keelon did not have his sons and ties to other area talent. He has STILL ACCOMPLISHED more than Saul in his career.

Who do you blatantly lie? A simple lookup will show Saul worked for someone else before joining Tubby. At least Saul has been in the college ranks for over a decade. Keelon won at a high school level...there are lots of winning coaches in high school that never make it out of that level and there's usually a reason why.

Straight up question. Since Saul came to Memphis I have talked to a lot of people about him. I have heard both 2nd hand and 1st hand experiences with Saul and every single one of them has been negative. Do you know anyone who has had any experiences with Saul that were positive? Do you know anyone who knows anyone who has had any positive experiences with Saul? I don't want a link to some article. Someone who has actually talked or dealt with Saul that came away saying ANYTHING positive about the guy.

As an example...
2nd hand... Keith said he was talking to a coach with multiple D1 players, Saul told him he was going to show up at a practice and then never showed up.

1st hand... I spoke with an AAU coach this past Friday who was invited to a coaching seminar with Saul and said the guy had a serious attitude problem. Sighed and rolled his eyes when asked any question and would turn away without responding. Left at the first moment he thought he could get out of the seminar. Last to arrive and first to leave (which I have heard from multiple people) he would never miss the bus.

Just thought I'd remind the Tubby haters that Tubby has the top class in the AAC coming in. Not a top 10 ranked class, 55 in the nation I think, but I've been on the other boards in our conference & I don't see anything near as critical about their coach's recruiting on those boards compared to the endlessly criticism seen here related to recruiting. Not even UConn with a recent nat'l championship, not Cincy, not Temple, not SMU etc., yet Memphis has a better recruiting class under Tubby than any of those schools. Doesn't mean I'm a Tubby lover, but simply just trying to be even-handed, objective about the recruiting Tubby & his staff have done. I'll be interested to see the team Tubby puts together with this group this season & the next - and I'm optimistic.

(05-31-2017 08:56 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 06:00 PM)tiger1016 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:39 PM)ncrdbl1 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:29 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 03:24 PM)Stammers Wrote:  People have to get it into their heads that the notion that this year's class is better than 2011's is pure nonsense. We signed Adonis who was in the top 20 in the nation, and Stan Simpson, who was on par with any of the jucos we signed this year.

In 2012, we signed another top 50 player in Shaq, and Geron who was also highly regarded, so that class is head and shoulders better than this one.

It is a joke that in your examples that you mention players transferring out to try and downgrade Pastner's classes. The 5 players that transferred out played a total of 10 seasons for us. Tubby's 6 transfers lasted 1 season. Tubby's transfer rate stands at a sparkling 75% after 1 season, but and he will luck out this year because Rivers is graduating and won't be able to transfer out.

Pastner
3 - 2010
3 - 2012
10 - 2015
38 - 2016
54 - Total

Tubby
2016 - 92
2017 - 55

Wake me up when Tubby manages to sign one decent class. Seriously.


Pastner took on Keelon who brought in 2 top 50 recruits, with the promise of more to come. Tubby took on his useless kid to recruit D2 players. For the life of me I don't know why anyone would bring up Pastner hiring Keelon as a means of defending Tubby.

It's really simple. People like to talk stars and rankings around here. So I gave you the stars and rankings. Now you want to put a lot of narrative and qualifiers with the stars and rankings. It's obvious where you're coming from.

As for transfers, if you really think Pastner only had 5 transfers, then you slept through some seasons.

And bringing up Keelon is not a way to defend Tubby. It's to point out how he got the ranking he did in his last year when things were obviously going south.

The overall point still stands. When the local class was deep, Pastner got favorable rankings. When it wasn't, he didn't. Now we all know he failed with doing much of anything with the players - regardless of the rankings. But his most highly regarded attribute still rose and fell with local players. And if you are at all interested in being fair, you will have to admit that local player rankings have been weak the past 2 years.

At least Keelon did win a state championship on his own. Saul hasn't even had a job outside of his dad's staff. Keelon had enough sense NOT to offer a div 2 player and he sure as hell never lost a recruiting battle against Baptist Bible College.

Saul has always been a daddy's boy who has NEVER been able to do something on his own merit.

Minnesota wanted him gone after his DUI, TT would not allow him on bench coaching staff.

Even if Keelon did not have his sons and ties to other area talent. He has STILL ACCOMPLISHED more than Saul in his career.

Who do you blatantly lie? A simple lookup will show Saul worked for someone else before joining Tubby. At least Saul has been in the college ranks for over a decade. Keelon won at a high school level...there are lots of winning coaches in high school that never make it out of that level and there's usually a reason why.

Straight up question. Since Saul came to Memphis I have talked to a lot of people about him. I have heard both 2nd hand and 1st hand experiences with Saul and every single one of them has been negative. Do you know anyone who has had any experiences with Saul that were positive? Do you know anyone who knows anyone who has had any positive experiences with Saul? I don't want a link to some article. Someone who has actually talked or dealt with Saul that came away saying ANYTHING positive about the guy.

What does that have anything to do with my response to racecarguy? I don't know Saul and I would rather we had a recruiter. But when someone blatantly and consistently lies, I'm gonna point it out. And then comparing a high school career to college is laughable.

(05-31-2017 09:02 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  Just thought I'd remind the Tubby haters that Tubby has the top class in the AAC coming in. Not a top 10 ranked class, 55 in the nation I think, but I've been on the other boards in our conference & I don't see anything near as critical about their coach's recruiting on those boards compared to the endlessly criticism seen here related to recruiting. Not even UConn with a recent nat'l championship, not Cincy, not Temple, not SMU etc., yet Memphis has a better recruiting class under Tubby than any of those schools. Doesn't mean I'm a Tubby lover, but simply just trying to be even-handed, objective about the recruiting Tubby & his staff have done. I'll be interested to see the team Tubby puts together with this group this season & the next - and I'm optimistic.

Not quite a fair statement IMO. As you stated UConn with a recent nat'l championship with some pretty solid players returning. Cincy with some solid players returning and adding just a few pieces. SMU who has absolutely been killing it. How many of those teams had a mass exodus of transfers after a complete disaster of a season end?

I am pretty sure even fans of those teams wouldn't hesitate to ask "what in the heck is happening in Memphis"

To take it a step forward, how about you start a thread on each of those boards asking what they think about what is going on with the Memphis program and if they think we should be satisfied and happy about what has happened.

(05-31-2017 09:03 PM)tiger1016 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 08:56 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 06:00 PM)tiger1016 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:39 PM)ncrdbl1 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:29 PM)Tiger87 Wrote:  It's really simple. People like to talk stars and rankings around here. So I gave you the stars and rankings. Now you want to put a lot of narrative and qualifiers with the stars and rankings. It's obvious where you're coming from.

As for transfers, if you really think Pastner only had 5 transfers, then you slept through some seasons.

And bringing up Keelon is not a way to defend Tubby. It's to point out how he got the ranking he did in his last year when things were obviously going south.

The overall point still stands. When the local class was deep, Pastner got favorable rankings. When it wasn't, he didn't. Now we all know he failed with doing much of anything with the players - regardless of the rankings. But his most highly regarded attribute still rose and fell with local players. And if you are at all interested in being fair, you will have to admit that local player rankings have been weak the past 2 years.

At least Keelon did win a state championship on his own. Saul hasn't even had a job outside of his dad's staff. Keelon had enough sense NOT to offer a div 2 player and he sure as hell never lost a recruiting battle against Baptist Bible College.

Saul has always been a daddy's boy who has NEVER been able to do something on his own merit.

Minnesota wanted him gone after his DUI, TT would not allow him on bench coaching staff.

Even if Keelon did not have his sons and ties to other area talent. He has STILL ACCOMPLISHED more than Saul in his career.

Who do you blatantly lie? A simple lookup will show Saul worked for someone else before joining Tubby. At least Saul has been in the college ranks for over a decade. Keelon won at a high school level...there are lots of winning coaches in high school that never make it out of that level and there's usually a reason why.

Straight up question. Since Saul came to Memphis I have talked to a lot of people about him. I have heard both 2nd hand and 1st hand experiences with Saul and every single one of them has been negative. Do you know anyone who has had any experiences with Saul that were positive? Do you know anyone who knows anyone who has had any positive experiences with Saul? I don't want a link to some article. Someone who has actually talked or dealt with Saul that came away saying ANYTHING positive about the guy.

What does that have anything to do with my response to racecarguy? I don't know Saul and I would rather we had a recruiter. But when someone blatantly and consistently lies, I'm gonna point it out. And then comparing a high school career to college is laughable.

You can still answer the question.

(05-31-2017 09:05 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 09:02 PM)Atlanta Wrote:  Just thought I'd remind the Tubby haters that Tubby has the top class in the AAC coming in. Not a top 10 ranked class, 55 in the nation I think, but I've been on the other boards in our conference & I don't see anything near as critical about their coach's recruiting on those boards compared to the endlessly criticism seen here related to recruiting. Not even UConn with a recent nat'l championship, not Cincy, not Temple, not SMU etc., yet Memphis has a better recruiting class under Tubby than any of those schools. Doesn't mean I'm a Tubby lover, but simply just trying to be even-handed, objective about the recruiting Tubby & his staff have done. I'll be interested to see the team Tubby puts together with this group this season & the next - and I'm optimistic.

Not quite a fair statement IMO. As you stated UConn with a recent nat'l championship with some pretty solid players returning. Cincy with some solid players returning and adding just a few pieces. SMU who has absolutely been killing it. How many of those teams had a mass exodus of transfers after a complete disaster of a season end? What is not fair is the endless criticism of the Memphis coach.

I am pretty sure even fans of those teams wouldn't hesitate to ask "what in the heck is happening in Memphis"

Not only fair, but also just a statement of fact unlike the endless criticism filled with anecdotal this & that, served up over & over by the Tubby haters. Classes are ranked every year, no asterisks, no footnotes by a number of services & this year Tubby's class ranked the highest in the AAC. PERIOD.

(05-31-2017 09:08 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 09:03 PM)tiger1016 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 08:56 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 06:00 PM)tiger1016 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 05:39 PM)ncrdbl1 Wrote:  At least Keelon did win a state championship on his own. Saul hasn't even had a job outside of his dad's staff. Keelon had enough sense NOT to offer a div 2 player and he sure as hell never lost a recruiting battle against Baptist Bible College.

Saul has always been a daddy's boy who has NEVER been able to do something on his own merit.

Minnesota wanted him gone after his DUI, TT would not allow him on bench coaching staff.

Even if Keelon did not have his sons and ties to other area talent. He has STILL ACCOMPLISHED more than Saul in his career.

Who do you blatantly lie? A simple lookup will show Saul worked for someone else before joining Tubby. At least Saul has been in the college ranks for over a decade. Keelon won at a high school level...there are lots of winning coaches in high school that never make it out of that level and there's usually a reason why.

Straight up question. Since Saul came to Memphis I have talked to a lot of people about him. I have heard both 2nd hand and 1st hand experiences with Saul and every single one of them has been negative. Do you know anyone who has had any experiences with Saul that were positive? Do you know anyone who knows anyone who has had any positive experiences with Saul? I don't want a link to some article. Someone who has actually talked or dealt with Saul that came away saying ANYTHING positive about the guy.

What does that have anything to do with my response to racecarguy? I don't know Saul and I would rather we had a recruiter. But when someone blatantly and consistently lies, I'm gonna point it out. And then comparing a high school career to college is laughable.

You can still answer the question.

What's the point? Unless I interact with someone directly I don't form an opinion about the person from other people's accounts. Of course unless the person is truly evil which I doubt is the case with Saul.

(05-31-2017 09:14 PM)tiger1016 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 09:08 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 09:03 PM)tiger1016 Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 08:56 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(05-31-2017 06:00 PM)tiger1016 Wrote:  Who do you blatantly lie? A simple lookup will show Saul worked for someone else before joining Tubby. At least Saul has been in the college ranks for over a decade. Keelon won at a high school level...there are lots of winning coaches in high school that never make it out of that level and there's usually a reason why.

Straight up question. Since Saul came to Memphis I have talked to a lot of people about him. I have heard both 2nd hand and 1st hand experiences with Saul and every single one of them has been negative. Do you know anyone who has had any experiences with Saul that were positive? Do you know anyone who knows anyone who has had any positive experiences with Saul? I don't want a link to some article. Someone who has actually talked or dealt with Saul that came away saying ANYTHING positive about the guy.

What does that have anything to do with my response to racecarguy? I don't know Saul and I would rather we had a recruiter. But when someone blatantly and consistently lies, I'm gonna point it out. And then comparing a high school career to college is laughable.

You can still answer the question.

What's the point? Unless I interact with someone directly I don't form an opinion about the person from other people's accounts. Of course unless the person is truly evil which I doubt is the case with Saul.

So the answer is "no, I have not heard one positive experience about Saul, even though he has 10 years of college experience he has done nothing positive". Thanks for the information.

Heck, even as weird as Frank was, there were plenty of people who said they had met him under different circumstances and he was a nice guy.