(05-29-2017 03:52 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 03:47 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 03:42 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 02:39 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  No, AggieOwl01 is a long time, high quality poster.

Just because we have had a good run doesn't mean that the questions within the program don't need to be addressed.

Absolutely. We need someone who can turn this team around, win the conference tournament, and get to the regionals.

I'd prefer to not have to win the conference tournament to make it to the NCAA tourney though. There are still plenty of questions about the program but I'm fine with focusing on the second season until it's over.

I may be in the minority here, but for the first time since I've been following Rice Baseball (dating back to around 1997) whatever happens in the post-season is gravy, and I won't be disappointed (even with a 2 and Q). What this team has accomplished playing virtually the last 2 months in survival mode-- and keeping our post-seasons steak alive-- makes this season a success. I've never been prouder of a team.

Really lowering those standards from "best team since the early 2000s" predictions at the beginning of the year.... It's been a great effort the last 2 months but let's not act like this team didn't dig themselves the hole they had to climb out of. We have issues we need to address going forward.

(05-29-2017 03:56 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 03:52 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 03:47 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 03:42 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 02:39 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  No, AggieOwl01 is a long time, high quality poster.

Just because we have had a good run doesn't mean that the questions within the program don't need to be addressed.

Absolutely. We need someone who can turn this team around, win the conference tournament, and get to the regionals.

I'd prefer to not have to win the conference tournament to make it to the NCAA tourney though. There are still plenty of questions about the program but I'm fine with focusing on the second season until it's over.

I may be in the minority here, but for the first time since I've been following Rice Baseball (dating back to around 1997) whatever happens in the post-season is gravy, and I won't be disappointed (even with a 2 and Q). What this team has accomplished playing virtually the last 2 months in survival mode-- and keeping our post-seasons steak alive-- makes this season a success. I've never been prouder of a team.

Really lowering those standards from "best team since the early 2000s" predictions at the beginning of the year.... It's been a great effort the last 2 months but let's not act like this team didn't dig themselves the hole they had to climb out of. We have issues we need to address going forward.

I NEVER said "best team since the early 2000s". Rather, I believe my exact words were, "potential to be the best offense since our mid-2000 glory days"....and our offense the past 6 weeks has been our best offense since those days.

BTW, who's lowering standards? My comment above pertains to THIS year's team in the here and now; not the future of the program. The fact that I'm content with just making the post-season this year, after all this team has been through, says nothing about where I expect them to be next season and beyond.

(05-29-2017 03:56 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 03:52 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 03:47 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 03:42 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 02:39 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  No, AggieOwl01 is a long time, high quality poster.

Just because we have had a good run doesn't mean that the questions within the program don't need to be addressed.

Absolutely. We need someone who can turn this team around, win the conference tournament, and get to the regionals.

I'd prefer to not have to win the conference tournament to make it to the NCAA tourney though. There are still plenty of questions about the program but I'm fine with focusing on the second season until it's over.

I may be in the minority here, but for the first time since I've been following Rice Baseball (dating back to around 1997) whatever happens in the post-season is gravy, and I won't be disappointed (even with a 2 and Q). What this team has accomplished playing virtually the last 2 months in survival mode-- and keeping our post-seasons steak alive-- makes this season a success. I've never been prouder of a team.

Really lowering those standards from "best team since the early 2000s" predictions at the beginning of the year.... It's been a great effort the last 2 months but let's not act like this team didn't dig themselves the hole they had to climb out of. We have issues we need to address going forward.

Address them how - by dwelling on them, or by overcoming them and winning games? I prefer the latter approach.

As some of my old mentors and bosses would say --- "Never expect kudos for digging yourself out of hole that you put yourself in."

Graham's undoubted success with the streak to the Regionals must be balanced with the absolute hole he (yes he, as coach the buck stops there) put both this year *and* the program as a whole in for the last 5 years.

Looking at it on a single year basis, coupling the awesome job of the last 21 games only levels the equation for the awesome pile of garbage that was the first portion of the season.

Had the first portion had any 'goodness' to it, I would be sending a "awesome job well done" to OG and the rest of the baseball program overseers. But the sheer awesomeness of the second portion of the season really only cancels out the sheer terribleness of the first portion.

This program is showing real problems at a foundational level. Still.

I think it is awesome that both OG and the players found a way to squeak into the regionals. Hopefully its not two and BBQ. But the fact that the team and program had to essentially run the table to get there to me is further evidence of real issues in the program.

(05-29-2017 04:12 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  As some of my old mentors and bosses would say --- "Never expect kudos for digging yourself out of hole that you put yourself in."

Graham's undoubted success with the streak to the Regionals must be balanced with the absolute hole he (yes he, as coach the buck stops there) put both this year *and* the program as a whole in for the last 5 years.

Looking at it on a single year basis, coupling the awesome job of the last 21 games only levels the equation for the awesome pile of garbage that was the first portion of the season.

Had the first portion had any 'goodness' to it, I would be sending a "awesome job well done" to OG and the rest of the baseball program overseers. But the sheer awesomeness of the second portion of the season really only cancels out the sheer terribleness of the first portion.

This program is showing real problems at a foundational level. Still.

I think it is awesome that both OG and the players found a way to squeak into the regionals. Hopefully its not two and BBQ. But the fact that the team and program had to essentially run the table to get there to me is further evidence of real issues in the program.

And do tell us what they are exactly. We've been in a hole the last 5 years? Who knew. Not making excuses because the overall performance was putrid those first two months, BUT you do realize we lost our #1 returning starting pitcher (Salinas)...our #1 pitcher and bullpen stud was still dealing-- and trying to pitch through-- shoulder impingement issues through mid-season...our projected #3 starter (Amador) suffered a broken nose which kept him off the field for 3+ weeks and then got hit with a line drive off his toe...and one of our top returning hitters (Gray) missed our first 15 games-- and couldn't even practice to stay sharp for almost a full month-- as he waited to be cleared of an infraction that never took place.

(05-29-2017 04:19 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 04:12 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  As some of my old mentors and bosses would say --- "Never expect kudos for digging yourself out of hole that you put yourself in."

Graham's undoubted success with the streak to the Regionals must be balanced with the absolute hole he (yes he, as coach the buck stops there) put both this year *and* the program as a whole in for the last 5 years.

Looking at it on a single year basis, coupling the awesome job of the last 21 games only levels the equation for the awesome pile of garbage that was the first portion of the season.

Had the first portion had any 'goodness' to it, I would be sending a "awesome job well done" to OG and the rest of the baseball program overseers. But the sheer awesomeness of the second portion of the season really only cancels out the sheer terribleness of the first portion.

This program is showing real problems at a foundational level. Still.

I think it is awesome that both OG and the players found a way to squeak into the regionals. Hopefully its not two and BBQ. But the fact that the team and program had to essentially run the table to get there to me is further evidence of real issues in the program.

And do tell us what they are exactly. We've been in a hole the last 5 years? Who knew. Not making excuses because the overall performance was putrid those first two months, BUT you do realize we lost our #1 returning starting pitcher (Salinas)...our #1 pitcher and bullpen stud was still dealing-- and trying to pitch through-- shoulder impingement issues through mid-season...our projected #3 starter (Amador) suffered a broken nose which kept him off the field for 3+ weeks and then got hit with a line drive off his toe...and one of our top returning hitters (Gray) missed our first 15 games-- and couldn't even practice to stay sharp for almost a full month-- as he waited to be cleared of an infraction that never took place.

Who knew? We haven't won a super regional game in eight seasons. Really a great effort the second half of the season, with full credit to coaches and players, but this program is pretty far off from where it was for over ten years.

Ah, forget it. This thread shows Graham has enemies on this board, and for them his best - which is what we've seen the last two months - will never be good enough.

(05-29-2017 04:24 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 04:19 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 04:12 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  As some of my old mentors and bosses would say --- "Never expect kudos for digging yourself out of hole that you put yourself in."

Graham's undoubted success with the streak to the Regionals must be balanced with the absolute hole he (yes he, as coach the buck stops there) put both this year *and* the program as a whole in for the last 5 years.

Looking at it on a single year basis, coupling the awesome job of the last 21 games only levels the equation for the awesome pile of garbage that was the first portion of the season.

Had the first portion had any 'goodness' to it, I would be sending a "awesome job well done" to OG and the rest of the baseball program overseers. But the sheer awesomeness of the second portion of the season really only cancels out the sheer terribleness of the first portion.

This program is showing real problems at a foundational level. Still.

I think it is awesome that both OG and the players found a way to squeak into the regionals. Hopefully its not two and BBQ. But the fact that the team and program had to essentially run the table to get there to me is further evidence of real issues in the program.

And do tell us what they are exactly. We've been in a hole the last 5 years? Who knew. Not making excuses because the overall performance was putrid those first two months, BUT you do realize we lost our #1 returning starting pitcher (Salinas)...our #1 pitcher and bullpen stud was still dealing-- and trying to pitch through-- shoulder impingement issues through mid-season...our projected #3 starter (Amador) suffered a broken nose which kept him off the field for 3+ weeks and then got hit with a line drive off his toe...and one of our top returning hitters (Gray) missed our first 15 games-- and couldn't even practice to stay sharp for almost a full month-- as he waited to be cleared of an infraction that never took place.

Who knew? We haven't won a super regional game in eight seasons. Really a great effort the second half of the season, with full credit to coaches and players, but this program is pretty far off from where it was for over ten years.

First off, this is the first year we're not Top 25 caliber. NO program stays Top 10 foreever; it just doesn't happen. UT, Stanford and LSU all missed the post-season altogether 2 - 3 times in the last decade. Do they each have fundamental structural issues? Second, as has been noted by many here, the primary reason we have dropped a notch the past 6 - 7 years is recruiting, and the reasons behind that cannot be blamed on Coach Graham or the team.

You can both be elated that Rice made a great run down the stretch and still think the program isn't in the best shape.

I was as happy as anyone that we won yesterday and I have watched/listened to/attended 80% of the games this season, so I'm not a hater or a fairweather fan. The only thing I'm not part of is the RBI club secret society.

All True:

-We're a three seed.
-This is our worst record in over 20 years.
-We haven't won a super regional game in 8 years.
-Wayne Graham is 81 and might not have mass appeal to 16 year old recruits.
-We went 18-4 down the stretch.
-We won 8 games against RPI top 25 teams, which is better than some of the hosts.
-We WILL beat LSU this weekend and win our first super regional games in a while next weekend!

Can't we just wait until the season is over and enjoy the postseason? No one is getting fired, hired, or replaced right now. Just win. Get a long-awaited CWS appearance. As a great ad-person once wrote -- "Just do it"

(05-29-2017 01:41 PM)AggieOwl01 Wrote:  But the program is not what it used to be. Rice used to be one of the top 2-3 programs in the state if not the top. Now, it is somewhere between 6-10.

Former SWC schools:

Texas Tech - natl seed
TCU - Natl seed
Arkansas - host
UH - Host
UT - 2 seed
Baylor - 2 seed
A&m - at large 3 seed
Rice - autobid only 3 seed

The program is pretty close to where it used to be, pre 96.

(05-29-2017 04:28 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  First off, this is the first year we're not Top 25 caliber. NO program stays Top 10 foreever; it just doesn't happen. UT, Stanford and LSU all missed the post-season altogether 2 - 3 times in the last decade. Do they each have fundamental structural issues?

Stanford -- to a certain degree Stanford did 'retool' with Marquess retiring after the foundations started showing wear in '15 and '16. And at the relative baby age of 68.

UT -- Ditto for Augie Garrido stepping down for Texas after three lackluster seasons in his last 4. Pierce seems to have retooled them very well.

LSU -- well, in the last decade they haven't won less than 36 since Marineri's inaugural season in 2007. I fail to see where your assertion of any structural weakness in the LSU program actually exists in the decade span is true (or even when you expand the scope to a score years, for that matter).

Quote:Second, as has been noted by many here, the primary reason we have dropped a notch the past 6 - 7 years is recruiting, and the reasons behind that cannot be blamed on Coach Graham or the team.

Simple yes or no question for you:

Does a 80 some odd year old head coach, with a deep reputation for abrasiveness, and a (maybe not well deserved) reputation for 'arm issues' with pitchers help or exacerbate the recruiting question?

Not wishing to detract from the great effort and achievement of this team to play "survival" this season. And you are correct that the scholarship issue does affect Rice more badly than others. But does the makeup of current staff tend to help that situation, or tend to make it worse?

My money is that Wayne, for all his greatness, and I mean that sincerely, is not helping the situation at the present time in a net positive manner. At best it is a wash.

All my opinion, of course.

Looks like Heisenberg has his minions at work...

Poison

(05-29-2017 07:11 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 04:28 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  First off, this is the first year we're not Top 25 caliber. NO program stays Top 10 foreever; it just doesn't happen. UT, Stanford and LSU all missed the post-season altogether 2 - 3 times in the last decade. Do they each have fundamental structural issues?

Stanford -- to a certain degree Stanford did 'retool' with Marquess retiring after the foundations started showing wear in '15 and '16. And at the relative baby age of 68.

UT -- Ditto for Augie Garrido stepping down for Texas after three lackluster seasons in his last 4. Pierce seems to have retooled them very well.

LSU -- well, in the last decade they haven't won less than 36 since Marineri's inaugural season in 2007. I fail to see where your assertion of any structural weakness in the LSU program actually exists in the decade span is true (or even when you expand the scope to a score years, for that matter).

Quote:Second, as has been noted by many here, the primary reason we have dropped a notch the past 6 - 7 years is recruiting, and the reasons behind that cannot be blamed on Coach Graham or the team.

Simple yes or no question for you:

Does a 80 some odd year old head coach, with a deep reputation for abrasiveness, and a (maybe not well deserved) reputation for 'arm issues' with pitchers help or exacerbate the recruiting question?

Not wishing to detract from the great effort and achievement of this team to play "survival" this season. And you are correct that the scholarship issue does affect Rice more badly than others. But does the makeup of current staff tend to help that situation, or tend to make it worse?

My money is that Wayne, for all his greatness, and I mean that sincerely, is not helping the situation at the present time in a net positive manner. At best it is a wash.

All my opinion, of course.

1. We have not lost recent recruits due to Wayne, but rather due to scholarship money. Mitchell Travers is one such example. He had originally committed to Rice before being offerred effectively a full scholarship at TCU.

2. For the record, I agree that Wayne should retire after his current contract expires, and that a transition plan should be publically announced. I've advocated this since the beginning of the season....but, no, I really don't think Wayne is having a negative impact on recruiting (though it may not be the positive it once was). I can tell you the vast majority of the parents are strongly behind Wayne, and speak glowingly about him.

Stanford?

Texas?

LSU?

All have significant advantages over Rice in terms of recruiting pool (academics), financial aid, and conference affiliation. Yet, we are expected to compete heads up with them in baseball only. As one former athletic director told me today, "Wayne raised the bar too high."

Speaking of athletic directors, three former ad's have contacted this program with genuine appreciation and congrats for what has been done this year. Can't say that for the current regime.

(05-29-2017 07:24 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  2. For the record, I agree that Wayne should retire after his current contract expires, and that a transition plan should be publically announced. I've advocated this since the beginning of the season....but, no, I really don't think Wayne is having a negative impact on recruiting (though it may not be the positive it once was). I can tell you the vast majority of the parents are strongly behind Wayne, and speak glowingly about him.

Then we hope for roughly the same thing here.

And, here's hoping to see the Owls go a long way through the championship tourney and convince me that my misgivings are for naught.

Cheers!

(05-29-2017 07:35 PM)skycatcher Wrote:  Stanford?

Texas?

LSU?

If you had read through, you would note that my statements are responding directly to walt's specific points about those schools and their supposed 'foundation' issues.

Quote:All have significant advantages over Rice in terms of recruiting pool (academics), financial aid, and conference affiliation. Yet, we are expected to compete heads up with them in baseball only.

This has nothing to do with my statements.

Quote:As one former athletic director told me today, "Wayne raised the bar too high."

Okay......

Quote:Speaking of athletic directors, three former ad's have contacted this program with genuine appreciation and congrats for what has been done this year. Can't say that for the current regime.

Shows some very classy former AD's. Again, nothing to really do as to the discussion with walt.

But then again, apparently I am nothing more than some minion because I have an opinion on the subject.

(05-29-2017 07:35 PM)skycatcher Wrote:  Stanford?

Texas?

LSU?

All have significant advantages over Rice in terms of recruiting pool (academics), financial aid, and conference affiliation. Yet, we are expected to compete heads up with them in baseball only. As one former athletic director told me today, "Wayne raised the bar too high."

Speaking of athletic directors, three former ad's have contacted this program with genuine appreciation and congrats for what has been done this year. Can't say that for the current regime.

Cry me a river about raising the bar too high...

There are plenty of schools in this country outside of the P5 who are great in one particular sport. Baseball happens to be ours... So we should just let that standard be abolished?

Examples:

Minnesota-Duluth, St Cloud St, Merrimack College, UMass-Lowell, Ferris State, Union, etc. in Hockey. They compete against and beat with some frequency schools like Michigan, Wisconsin, Boston College, etc.

Johns Hopkins in lacrosse.

Butler, Gonzaga, Villanova, St Johns, etc in basketball. Don't think Gonzaga football would beat LSU but hey I guess they should just give up and not try to make final fours.

(05-29-2017 07:43 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 07:35 PM)skycatcher Wrote:  Stanford?

Texas?

LSU?

If you had read through, you would note that my statements are responding directly to walt's specific points about those schools and their supposed 'foundation' issues.

Quote:All have significant advantages over Rice in terms of recruiting pool (academics), financial aid, and conference affiliation. Yet, we are expected to compete heads up with them in baseball only.

This has nothing to do with my statements.

Quote:As one former athletic director told me today, "Wayne raised the bar too high."

Okay......

Quote:Speaking of athletic directors, three former ad's have contacted this program with genuine appreciation and congrats for what has been done this year. Can't say that for the current regime.

Shows some very classy former AD's. Again, nothing to really do as to the discussion with walt.

But then again, apparently I am nothing more than some minion because I have an opinion on the subject.

Your responses remind me of a song in a Texas based movie......"sidestep"

And I wouldn't call what the three former athletic directors did as "classy" but a continued genuine interest in Rice athletics.

Poison

(05-29-2017 08:10 PM)skycatcher Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 07:43 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  

(05-29-2017 07:35 PM)skycatcher Wrote:  Stanford?

Texas?

LSU?

If you had read through, you would note that my statements are responding directly to walt's specific points about those schools and their supposed 'foundation' issues.

Quote:All have significant advantages over Rice in terms of recruiting pool (academics), financial aid, and conference affiliation. Yet, we are expected to compete heads up with them in baseball only.

This has nothing to do with my statements.

Quote:As one former athletic director told me today, "Wayne raised the bar too high."

Okay......

Quote:Speaking of athletic directors, three former ad's have contacted this program with genuine appreciation and congrats for what has been done this year. Can't say that for the current regime.

Shows some very classy former AD's. Again, nothing to really do as to the discussion with walt.

But then again, apparently I am nothing more than some minion because I have an opinion on the subject.

Your responses remind me of a song in a Texas based movie......"sidestep"

And I wouldn't call what the three former athletic directors did as "classy" but a continued genuine interest in Rice athletics.

Poison

Sidestep? maybe. I have no clue about what your point is as it has nothing to do with the issues that Walt and I were discussing.

For some reason my opinion got *your* panties in a wad. Live with it.

But you chose to keep up with the discussion with a liberal dose of ad hominems. Really helps your point. The simple point is that because I have an opinion, you feel the need to engage in name calling. Real fing mature.....