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Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
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Hokie4Skins Offline
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Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
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"OU in the Big Ten doesn't sound right.

Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan. Those are schools that have little in common with the Sooners. Culturally. Geographically. Historically. Frankly, outside Nebraska (an epic rivalry) and Iowa (Bob Stoops), there's little linking OU to the Big Ten.

But as I wrote the other day, if the Sooners ever leave the Big 12, the Big Ten would be the destination of choice."
05-09-2017 12:29 PM
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 12:29 PM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  http://newsok.com/berry-tramel-would-the...um=twitter

"OU in the Big Ten doesn't sound right.

Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan. Those are schools that have little in common with the Sooners. Culturally. Geographically. Historically. Frankly, outside Nebraska (an epic rivalry) and Iowa (Bob Stoops), there's little linking OU to the Big Ten.

But as I wrote the other day, if the Sooners ever leave the Big 12, the Big Ten would be the destination of choice."

If you have to sell it then it's not a natural fit.
05-09-2017 12:32 PM
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
I've said it for a very long time, the natural place for OU is right where it is at.

A move to any other league is a bad long term proposition for OU.
05-09-2017 12:39 PM
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 12:32 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 12:29 PM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  http://newsok.com/berry-tramel-would-the...um=twitter

"OU in the Big Ten doesn't sound right.

Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan. Those are schools that have little in common with the Sooners. Culturally. Geographically. Historically. Frankly, outside Nebraska (an epic rivalry) and Iowa (Bob Stoops), there's little linking OU to the Big Ten.

But as I wrote the other day, if the Sooners ever leave the Big 12, the Big Ten would be the destination of choice."

If you have to sell it then it's not a natural fit.

I think it's overstating it. Oklahoma is arguably a more natural fit in the Big Ten than Rutgers was to the B1G a few years ago or Missouri was to the SEC or pretty much every realignment move over the past several years with the exception of maybe Texas A&M to the SEC (which made perfect sense). Even within Tramel's piece, he's conflating "fit" with "history". Those are two different things. Oklahoma has little history with many Big Ten schools, but it's wrong to say that they don't fit (as a large public flagship school with a huge football and athletics program).
05-09-2017 12:48 PM
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BadgerMJ Offline
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 12:29 PM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  http://newsok.com/berry-tramel-would-the...um=twitter

"OU in the Big Ten doesn't sound right.

Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan. Those are schools that have little in common with the Sooners. Culturally. Geographically. Historically. Frankly, outside Nebraska (an epic rivalry) and Iowa (Bob Stoops), there's little linking OU to the Big Ten.

But as I wrote the other day, if the Sooners ever leave the Big 12, the Big Ten would be the destination of choice."

I don't necessarily agree with that. If you look at demographics, lifestyles, political make up (outside the People's Republic of Madison that is...) I think places like Iowa and Wisconsin are pretty similar to Oklahoma, especially in terms of size of cities, rural make up, agriculture, etc.

I personally think they'd be a pretty good fit in the B1G and being a B1G fan, I'd love to see them in the conference.
05-09-2017 12:51 PM
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
Yes the Big Ten would take them in a heartbeat. Think back to the Big 8 days when Oklahoma was part of a league that ran from Iowa, Kansas, Nebraska, into Oklahoma. Essentially OU and KU to the B1G recreates that Big 8 with the West Division, substituting Iowa for Iowa State, and Illinois for Missouri. Then there is the FOX networks angle, as both are affiliated.

There is no more sales pitch IMO than Kansas (and OU) to the SEC, where the West would be a semi-recreation of the best of the Big XII/SWC with Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma, Texas A&M and Arkansas together. Neither the B1G nor the SEC in those configurations look like pure Union or Confederacy anyway. Both would have a distinct Great Plains element.

Conferences in the push to have more influence are pushing beyond the boundaries of their original geographic names. The B1G has three Eastern and one Great Plains school not in Chicago's orbit. The SEC would move firmly into the Great Plains with an expansion of Kansas and Oklahoma.The Pac-12 might yet move into the central time zone. And the ACC is made up of almost half ex-Big East Schools, running from Boston to upstate New York and not far from Chicago in northern Indiana.

Oklahoma ranks almost identical to Nebraska and is a bigger brand name. Frankly that brand name is the selling point.
05-09-2017 12:59 PM
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ken d Offline
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
At some point I have to wonder if the B1G is going to be satisfied being the weakest football conference in the P5 (at least in term of on-field performance). If they aren't, and believe their brand could suffer from that perception, academic snobbery might give way to practical reality. OU isn't as different as some B1G members might think.
05-09-2017 01:16 PM
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
The people suggesting OU doesn't fit the B1G are SEC fans claiming OU is "kinda" confederacy. They are Great Plains. sure Southerners made up a good chunk of the settlers, but first generation European immigrants made up the majority. There were never slave plantations there. There are no complaints coming from B1G people. Trammel is incorrect in this, just as he is in AAU being an absolute requirement. (R1 Carnegie and inside the top 10% of research schools is, an OU meets that).
05-09-2017 01:25 PM
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 01:16 PM)ken d Wrote:  At some point I have to wonder if the B1G is going to be satisfied being the weakest football conference in the P5 (at least in term of on-field performance). If they aren't, and believe their brand could suffer from that perception, academic snobbery might give way to practical reality. OU isn't as different as some B1G members might think.

Well they have to be the weakest first. The B1G doesn't make emotional decisions based on a year or two results.
05-09-2017 01:32 PM
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
There are no more "natural fits" for expansion with the original Big Ten. The Great Lakes region only has a handful of strong academic institutions that play FBS level football - Buffalo (not happening, no interest from the conference), Notre Dame (been rejecting the Big Ten for decades due to desire to be independent), Cincinnati (not happening, no interest from the conference), Pittsburgh (not happening, no interest from the conference, plus GOR with ACC).

When Penn State first joined, they had to sell it as well because they were not a natural fit for the midwest.

In the end the conference will only expand with worthwhile candidates that fit most of the criteria - strong academics preferably AAU in research, big state university OR elite private university that plays FBS football, "franchise player" type of football program, top media region or state, within geographic range of the conference's current members.

Using that criteria and excluding the ACC, PAC and SEC since the most realistic candidates due to GORs (ACC) and overall conference success (SEC) would be the B12 and G5 conferences, these are the only broadly institutional fits for the conference and the strikes against them:

- Buffalo (poor football/athletics program, doesn't add strong tv market)
- Cincinnati (doesn't add anything geographically, not AAU)
- Connecticut (doesn't add anything geographically, poor football, not AAU)
- Iowa State (doesn't add anything geographically)
- Houston (nowhere close to reaching AAU status)
- Kansas (poor football, doesn't add strong tv market)
- Oklahoma (not AAU, doesn't add strong tv market but offset by being a football blueblood)
- Rice (not a strong football program, closest neighbor currently Nebraska)
- Texas (only issue is that their closest neighbor currently Nebraska)
- Texas Tech (nowhere close to reaching AAU status)
- Tulane (poor football, closest neighbor currently Nebraska)
- West Virginia (nowhere close to reaching AAU status, doesn't add strong tv market)

Out of that list, its pretty obvious who by far are the top candidates would be for the conference - the two bluebloods. And if the conference went with 4 schools, it'd be Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas + one more attempt at Notre Dame before going after Missouri.
(This post was last modified: 05-09-2017 01:55 PM by AntiG.)
05-09-2017 01:47 PM
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RutgersGuy Offline
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 01:47 PM)AntiG Wrote:  There are no more "natural fits" for expansion with the original Big Ten. The Great Lakes region only has a handful of strong academic institutions that play FBS level football - Buffalo (not happening, no interest from the conference), Notre Dame (been rejecting the Big Ten for decades due to desire to be independent), Cincinnati (not happening, no interest from the conference), Pittsburgh (not happening, no interest from the conference, plus GOR with ACC).

When Penn State first joined, they had to sell it as well because they were not a natural fit for the midwest.

In the end the conference will only expand with worthwhile candidates that fit most of the criteria - strong academics preferably AAU in research, big state university OR elite private university that plays FBS football, "franchise player" type of football program, top media region or state, within geographic range of the conference's current members.

Using that criteria and excluding the ACC, PAC and SEC since the most realistic candidates due to GORs (ACC) and overall conference success (SEC) would be the B12 and G5 conferences, these are the only broadly institutional fits for the conference and the strikes against them:

- Buffalo (poor football/athletics program, doesn't add strong tv market)
- Cincinnati (doesn't add anything geographically, not AAU)
- Connecticut (doesn't add anything geographically, poor football, not AAU)
- Iowa State (doesn't add anything geographically)
- Houston (nowhere close to reaching AAU status)
- Kansas (poor football, doesn't add strong tv market)
- Oklahoma (not AAU, doesn't add strong tv market but offset by being a football blueblood)
- Rice (not a strong football program)
- Texas (only issue is that their closest neighbor currently Nebraska)
- Texas Tech (nowhere close to reaching AAU status)
- Tulane (poor football, closest neighbor currently Nebraska)
- West Virginia (nowhere close to reaching AAU status, doesn't add strong tv market)

Out of that list, its pretty obvious who by far are the top candidates would be for the conference - the two bluebloods.

Kansas is a blue blood in BBall. If the B1G is interested in UNC they should also be interested in KU.
05-09-2017 01:50 PM
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 12:29 PM)Hokie4Skins Wrote:  http://newsok.com/berry-tramel-would-the...um=twitter

"OU in the Big Ten doesn't sound right.

Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan. Those are schools that have little in common with the Sooners. Culturally. Geographically. Historically. Frankly, outside Nebraska (an epic rivalry) and Iowa (Bob Stoops), there's little linking OU to the Big Ten.

But as I wrote the other day, if the Sooners ever leave the Big 12, the Big Ten would be the destination of choice."


His last sentence above pretty well sums it up.

Being an old Okie I can tell you most people in Oklahloma think of themselves as Midwesterners or Southwesterners, not Southerners.

There is very little difference in Oklahoma and Kansas, Nebraska and Missouri. Trammel mentions Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan. He fails to mention that if OU goes to the Big10 they will likely be in a division with Kansas, Nebraska, Iowa and quite possibly Texas and Missouri. All states they have had a long historic association with.
(This post was last modified: 05-09-2017 02:42 PM by SMUmustangs.)
05-09-2017 01:53 PM
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
I'd like to see Kansas end up in the SEC... Somebody's got to lose some conference FB games, so it might as well be a basketball blue blood.

Mizzou-Kansas rivlary... Kansas - Kentucky in basketball would be must-see TV.
05-09-2017 01:54 PM
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 01:50 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Kansas is a blue blood in BBall. If the B1G is interested in UNC they should also be interested in KU.

Agree, but they would be a secondary choice, the prime targets amongst the schools available in 2025 are Texas and Oklahoma by far. I could certainly imagine that the B1G plans are to get Texas and Oklahoma, and then try to attempt for Notre Dame one more time, with Kansas as the last school in, and if the ND try fails again, they try for one of Missouri, Iowa State or Rice.
05-09-2017 01:58 PM
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 01:50 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Kansas is a blue blood in BBall. If the B1G is interested in UNC they should also be interested in KU.

I have no idea whether the Big Ten has a serious interest in acquiring either of those schools, but if they were more interested in UNC than KU, this would be one major reason why:

Kansas population: 2.9 million
North Carolina population: 10.1 million
05-09-2017 02:12 PM
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 02:12 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 01:50 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Kansas is a blue blood in BBall. If the B1G is interested in UNC they should also be interested in KU.

I have no idea whether the Big Ten has a serious interest in acquiring either of those schools, but if they were more interested in UNC than KU, this would be one major reason why:

Kansas population: 2.9 million
North Carolina population: 10.1 million

Agree - the B1G was pushing for UNC previously because they wanted to go up and down the coast. They were looking into adding Rutgers, Maryland, Virginia, UNC, Duke, Georgia Tech and Florida State.
05-09-2017 02:20 PM
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 02:12 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 01:50 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Kansas is a blue blood in BBall. If the B1G is interested in UNC they should also be interested in KU.

I have no idea whether the Big Ten has a serious interest in acquiring either of those schools, but if they were more interested in UNC than KU, this would be one major reason why:

Kansas population: 2.9 million
North Carolina population: 10.1 million

Gordon Gee (Ohio State's former president) said that if they had known how reallignment would shake out, they would have added Missouri and Kansas right after adding Nebraska.
05-09-2017 02:22 PM
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
Wedge,

ACC GOR gets in the way of Oklahoma plus a North Carolina B1G addition (or for that matter Florida State or Georgia Tech or Duke). That gap between the ending of the B12 and the ACC GOR is 8 years, the length of an entire media package, whether digital or cable or whatever those things look like in 2025. Further that 8 years assumes the ACC doesn't restructure in their media alignment in anyway, extending the GOR another 5 or 10years further (which is likely).

Basically what I am saying is the Big 12 will be the only conference that other P5 conferences can find expansion targets
05-09-2017 02:38 PM
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ken d Offline
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 01:32 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 01:16 PM)ken d Wrote:  At some point I have to wonder if the B1G is going to be satisfied being the weakest football conference in the P5 (at least in term of on-field performance). If they aren't, and believe their brand could suffer from that perception, academic snobbery might give way to practical reality. OU isn't as different as some B1G members might think.

Well they have to be the weakest first. The B1G doesn't make emotional decisions based on a year or two results.

They have been battling the ACC for that "honor" for a while now. The two were running neck and neck until the ACC's recent surge. I agree the B1G won't (and shouldn't) make a move based on short-term results. But if they don't reverse the trend within a few years, there will be pressure to add somebody strong, and there aren't many schools left that meet that description and also could be palatable to the B1G. After OU, the list is very short.
05-09-2017 02:38 PM
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RE: Berry Tramel: Would the Big Ten welcome OU?
(05-09-2017 01:58 PM)AntiG Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 01:50 PM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  Kansas is a blue blood in BBall. If the B1G is interested in UNC they should also be interested in KU.

Agree, but they would be a secondary choice, the prime targets amongst the schools available in 2025 are Texas and Oklahoma by far. I could certainly imagine that the B1G plans are to get Texas and Oklahoma, and then try to attempt for Notre Dame one more time, with Kansas as the last school in, and if the ND try fails again, they try for one of Missouri, Iowa State or Rice.

Rice is never ever getting a B1G invite. No power conference is ever inviting Rice.
05-09-2017 02:44 PM
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