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Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-09-2017 09:14 PM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 06:30 PM)SMUfan Wrote:  What about adding 3:

Robert Morris
Morehead State
SIU-E

Robert Morris is a tough fit; they only sponsor six men's sports, and three of those are football, hockey, and lacrosse, which the Horizon League has no championships in. I think most leagues have a minimum number of sports you have to sponsor for men and women to get in. (RMU would have no issues on the women's side.)

If you could convince Bellarmine to bolt from the SoCon, then get NJIT and Howard out of their independent wilderness, plus RMU, Cleveland State, and Detroit, you could form a men's lax championship. But even then, that's only four sports. Not sure that's enough, since I can't find anything on a minimum for conference membership.

Morehead State doesn't fit their MO of large metro/suburb schools. SIU-Edwardsville would be a stretch just because both basketball teams and their baseball team are traditionally quite bad, much worse than IUPUI or Fort Wayne over the long-term.

To me, IUPUI seems like an easy choice. It'd be silly to go to 12 or 14 and not have the school that's within walking distance of your headquarters in the fold, especially when they're no longer playing men's games in The Jungle. Then again, they've been available for some time and the Horizon hasn't picked them up. If they wanted to expand, IUPUI would've been dancing on the ceiling.

I talked to someone from Indiana who actually suggested they could look at the Dakota schools, particularly the xDSUs. If you want quality basketball and fan support, SDSU and NDSU would bring it more so than IUPUI or Fort Wayne, although SDSU doesn't really fit the mold (Brookings is about 60 miles north of Sioux Falls) and is in love with having the tournament in Sioux Falls.

In a perfect world, I think you take IUPUI, Belmont, Omaha, UMKC, and Fort Wayne and split the conference in half. If Belmont has no interest, Robert Morris would be next, and if they can't make it work, look to the Dakotas, or go further into the Northeast and try to pry Canisius and Niagara (both in Buffalo) out of the MAAC, which would make Detroit very happy. Schools like SIUE (greater St. Louis) and even Oral Roberts (Tulsa) would be a last resort.

Six actually works for lacrosse and maybe the Horizon schools offering it will expand. It would also give the Horizon another men's team sport for ensuring it's autobid.

No way would the XDSU's look at the Horizon except out of desperation. Every trip becomes a plane ride and more. The Buffalo schools might be possible, but don't think they would be interested as they seem to like the NY metro area. SIUE doesn't have access to a nearby big arena, so think that would be a bottom lister.
05-09-2017 09:26 PM
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Fresno St. Alum Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-09-2017 09:26 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 09:14 PM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 06:30 PM)SMUfan Wrote:  What about adding 3:

Robert Morris
Morehead State
SIU-E

Robert Morris is a tough fit; they only sponsor six men's sports, and three of those are football, hockey, and lacrosse, which the Horizon League has no championships in. I think most leagues have a minimum number of sports you have to sponsor for men and women to get in. (RMU would have no issues on the women's side.)

If you could convince Bellarmine to bolt from the SoCon, then get NJIT and Howard out of their independent wilderness, plus RMU, Cleveland State, and Detroit, you could form a men's lax championship. But even then, that's only four sports. Not sure that's enough, since I can't find anything on a minimum for conference membership.

Morehead State doesn't fit their MO of large metro/suburb schools. SIU-Edwardsville would be a stretch just because both basketball teams and their baseball team are traditionally quite bad, much worse than IUPUI or Fort Wayne over the long-term.

To me, IUPUI seems like an easy choice. It'd be silly to go to 12 or 14 and not have the school that's within walking distance of your headquarters in the fold, especially when they're no longer playing men's games in The Jungle. Then again, they've been available for some time and the Horizon hasn't picked them up. If they wanted to expand, IUPUI would've been dancing on the ceiling.

I talked to someone from Indiana who actually suggested they could look at the Dakota schools, particularly the xDSUs. If you want quality basketball and fan support, SDSU and NDSU would bring it more so than IUPUI or Fort Wayne, although SDSU doesn't really fit the mold (Brookings is about 60 miles north of Sioux Falls) and is in love with having the tournament in Sioux Falls.

In a perfect world, I think you take IUPUI, Belmont, Omaha, UMKC, and Fort Wayne and split the conference in half. If Belmont has no interest, Robert Morris would be next, and if they can't make it work, look to the Dakotas, or go further into the Northeast and try to pry Canisius and Niagara (both in Buffalo) out of the MAAC, which would make Detroit very happy. Schools like SIUE (greater St. Louis) and even Oral Roberts (Tulsa) would be a last resort.

Six actually works for lacrosse and maybe the Horizon schools offering it will expand. It would also give the Horizon another men's team sport for ensuring it's autobid.

No way would the XDSU's look at the Horizon except out of desperation. Every trip becomes a plane ride and more. The Buffalo schools might be possible, but don't think they would be interested as they seem to like the NY metro area. SIUE doesn't have access to a nearby big arena, so think that would be a bottom lister.
So if 3, who do you have? RMU, IUPUI, PUFW? If only 1 who do you have?
RMU football to the Big South?
05-09-2017 09:40 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #63
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
Robert Morris football is much closer to Pioneer level than Big South. It's a better geographic fit too minus the occasional away game in San Diego.
05-09-2017 09:45 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-09-2017 09:40 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 09:26 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 09:14 PM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 06:30 PM)SMUfan Wrote:  What about adding 3:

Robert Morris
Morehead State
SIU-E

Robert Morris is a tough fit; they only sponsor six men's sports, and three of those are football, hockey, and lacrosse, which the Horizon League has no championships in. I think most leagues have a minimum number of sports you have to sponsor for men and women to get in. (RMU would have no issues on the women's side.)

If you could convince Bellarmine to bolt from the SoCon, then get NJIT and Howard out of their independent wilderness, plus RMU, Cleveland State, and Detroit, you could form a men's lax championship. But even then, that's only four sports. Not sure that's enough, since I can't find anything on a minimum for conference membership.

Morehead State doesn't fit their MO of large metro/suburb schools. SIU-Edwardsville would be a stretch just because both basketball teams and their baseball team are traditionally quite bad, much worse than IUPUI or Fort Wayne over the long-term.

To me, IUPUI seems like an easy choice. It'd be silly to go to 12 or 14 and not have the school that's within walking distance of your headquarters in the fold, especially when they're no longer playing men's games in The Jungle. Then again, they've been available for some time and the Horizon hasn't picked them up. If they wanted to expand, IUPUI would've been dancing on the ceiling.

I talked to someone from Indiana who actually suggested they could look at the Dakota schools, particularly the xDSUs. If you want quality basketball and fan support, SDSU and NDSU would bring it more so than IUPUI or Fort Wayne, although SDSU doesn't really fit the mold (Brookings is about 60 miles north of Sioux Falls) and is in love with having the tournament in Sioux Falls.

In a perfect world, I think you take IUPUI, Belmont, Omaha, UMKC, and Fort Wayne and split the conference in half. If Belmont has no interest, Robert Morris would be next, and if they can't make it work, look to the Dakotas, or go further into the Northeast and try to pry Canisius and Niagara (both in Buffalo) out of the MAAC, which would make Detroit very happy. Schools like SIUE (greater St. Louis) and even Oral Roberts (Tulsa) would be a last resort.

Six actually works for lacrosse and maybe the Horizon schools offering it will expand. It would also give the Horizon another men's team sport for ensuring it's autobid.

No way would the XDSU's look at the Horizon except out of desperation. Every trip becomes a plane ride and more. The Buffalo schools might be possible, but don't think they would be interested as they seem to like the NY metro area. SIUE doesn't have access to a nearby big arena, so think that would be a bottom lister.
So if 3, who do you have? RMU, IUPUI, PUFW? If only 1 who do you have?
RMU football to the Big South?

IPFW because it has baseball. IUPUI is more along the Presidents dreams though, but hasn't been good in mbb since they lost their coach to Ga St. I'm hoping both though.

Ro Mo seems to have aspirations in fb, so the Big South would be a better fit.
05-09-2017 10:02 PM
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Mister Consistency Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-09-2017 09:26 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 09:14 PM)Mister Consistency Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 06:30 PM)SMUfan Wrote:  What about adding 3:

Robert Morris
Morehead State
SIU-E

Robert Morris is a tough fit; they only sponsor six men's sports, and three of those are football, hockey, and lacrosse, which the Horizon League has no championships in. I think most leagues have a minimum number of sports you have to sponsor for men and women to get in. (RMU would have no issues on the women's side.)

If you could convince Bellarmine to bolt from the SoCon, then get NJIT and Howard out of their independent wilderness, plus RMU, Cleveland State, and Detroit, you could form a men's lax championship. But even then, that's only four sports. Not sure that's enough, since I can't find anything on a minimum for conference membership.

Morehead State doesn't fit their MO of large metro/suburb schools. SIU-Edwardsville would be a stretch just because both basketball teams and their baseball team are traditionally quite bad, much worse than IUPUI or Fort Wayne over the long-term.

To me, IUPUI seems like an easy choice. It'd be silly to go to 12 or 14 and not have the school that's within walking distance of your headquarters in the fold, especially when they're no longer playing men's games in The Jungle. Then again, they've been available for some time and the Horizon hasn't picked them up. If they wanted to expand, IUPUI would've been dancing on the ceiling.

I talked to someone from Indiana who actually suggested they could look at the Dakota schools, particularly the xDSUs. If you want quality basketball and fan support, SDSU and NDSU would bring it more so than IUPUI or Fort Wayne, although SDSU doesn't really fit the mold (Brookings is about 60 miles north of Sioux Falls) and is in love with having the tournament in Sioux Falls.

In a perfect world, I think you take IUPUI, Belmont, Omaha, UMKC, and Fort Wayne and split the conference in half. If Belmont has no interest, Robert Morris would be next, and if they can't make it work, look to the Dakotas, or go further into the Northeast and try to pry Canisius and Niagara (both in Buffalo) out of the MAAC, which would make Detroit very happy. Schools like SIUE (greater St. Louis) and even Oral Roberts (Tulsa) would be a last resort.

Six actually works for lacrosse and maybe the Horizon schools offering it will expand. It would also give the Horizon another men's team sport for ensuring it's autobid.

No way would the XDSU's look at the Horizon except out of desperation. Every trip becomes a plane ride and more. The Buffalo schools might be possible, but don't think they would be interested as they seem to like the NY metro area. SIUE doesn't have access to a nearby big arena, so think that would be a bottom lister.

Yeah, it'd be good for the Horizon League to have a lax championship, but my issue is the lack of men's sports for RMU in the Horizon. They'd only have MBB, golf, soccer, and lax. I wonder if they'd be able to start a cross country program without throwing their spending out of whack. That's probably the lowest-cost option, or cut both hockey teams and add a ton of other sports.

I won't disagree about the XDSUs, but playing schools in big Midwestern cities would help them shake the "flyover country" perception that has dogged them for years despite major regional growth. That, and Fargo in particular is reasonably easy to get to (connect in Chicago, fly United into Hector and you're 5 minutes from campus), but the Horizon League has a habit of destabilizing the Summit, and it might be better for everyone involved to just pull the rug out from under the Summit League all together and get it over with. Gobble up most of the league and set up a west division with as many bus trips as possible.

(05-09-2017 09:45 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Robert Morris football is much closer to Pioneer level than Big South. It's a better geographic fit too minus the occasional away game in San Diego.

Part of that is the 40 scholarship limit the NEC artificially imposes on its membership. RMU would need to get up to a full complement in the Big South before being truly competitive against anybody, but the BSC would take them in a heartbeat because their football schools desperately need more conference games wherever they can get them.
05-09-2017 10:16 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Online
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Post: #66
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/stor...101471576/
Quote:“We have really been on an 18- to 24-month look at expanding our league, even beyond 10 to maybe 12 or 14,” LeCrone said. “We are still on that path. That is still our strategic plan. We think that helps us improve in men’s basketball.

“We have quite a good-sized candidate list. We have a number of candidates that are interested in coming into the Horizon League. So we are in a time where we could have, I’m not suggesting the process is over, we could have a member transitioning out and we could have some members that are transitioning in."
Directly implying they could take IUPUI/IPFW this offseason, imo.
05-10-2017 12:01 AM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
Implying somebody. But not necessarily the schools posters on this forum throw out by looking at a map of Indiana
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2017 12:14 AM by Stugray2.)
05-10-2017 12:13 AM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
Wisconsin-Parkside D2 in Racine suburbs which is south of Milwaukee could have been a replacement if the Horizon lost Milwaukee.

University of Charleston in West Virginia is in looks like a larger town than where Marshall and West Virginia are located. But, they would be small.

Texas and New Mexico are too far south for the schools to be in the Summit. You need to add schools if you want New Mexico State in the conference. I could go with West Texas A&M as a travel partner for New Mexico State in the Summit. West Texas A&M could be an affiliate to the Big Sky for football.

Christian Brothers (Memphis), Lipscomb (Nashville), Chattanooga all could be Horizon members.

Duquesne in Pittsburgh.

Bellarmine already mentioned.

Minnesota State-Mankato, Minnesota-Duluth either one for all sports in the Summit. That includes football.

Chadron State or Wayne State-Nebraska in the Summit for all sports.

Fort Hays State in Kansas to the Summit.

Montana State-Billings and either Black Hills State or South Dakota Mines in the western South Dakota could bridge the gap to Denver along with the Kansas and Nebraska schools.

But, nobody mentioned University of Indianapolis from D2. They are private school. Southern Indiana is another one.

Illinois-Springfield from D2 could be a target for the Horizon.

UAFS in Fort Smith could be a Summit candidate. They could be a travel partner for Oral Roberts in Tulsa.

Lindenwood or UMSL in the Saint Louis market could go to the Horizon.

Wayne State, Michigan could be a replacement.

Davenport in Grand Rapids could go to the Horizon in the future.

Grand Valley State with football in the MVFC.

If MVC schools like Missouri State, Northern Iowa and Illinois State go FBS in the future? You could create a new D1 FCS conference with these schools.

Southern Illinois
Indiana State
Indianapolis
Grand Valley State
Youngstown State
Wayne State
Western Illinois
Northern Michigan
Lindenwood
Davenport
Dayton might add scholarships to join this league.
Mckendree
Quincy

That would eliminate D2 football schools from both Illinois and Indiana.
05-10-2017 03:15 AM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
There are tweets from Mavpuck, an Omaha message board moderator, that Omaha and maybe UMVC are preparing to accept Horizon invites. That may be possible if the Horizon is OK with flights. It would still need a travel partner for UIC, such as IPFW or IUPUI.
05-10-2017 03:57 AM
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chargeradio Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
If the Summit loses Omaha and an Indiana-Purdue, you wonder if Oral Roberts would join the WAC and the other Indiana-Purdue would join the Atlantic Sun.

Of course if Milwaukee is leaving the Horizon as well it puts the Horizon back at 10 schools and Green Bay can be UIC's travel partner. It would also open up the Horizon going to 12 with both Indiana-Purdue schools.
05-10-2017 05:15 AM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
Wonder if UMKC can get in a bidding war from both the MVC vs the Horizon. Both seem to want UMKC. That would harm the WAC.

S Indiana could partner with whatever IP school is left, or even W Ill, and present themselves to the A Sun. The A Sun might have to go for it, as they don't have many opportunities to pick up existing DI schools. The Summit looks more and more like it's losing its Midwestern City schools by the day.
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2017 05:40 AM by NoDak.)
05-10-2017 05:27 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-10-2017 03:57 AM)NoDak Wrote:  There are tweets from Mavpuck, an Omaha message board moderator, that Omaha and maybe UMVC are preparing to accept Horizon invites. That may be possible if the Horizon is OK with flights. It would still need a travel partner for UIC, such as IPFW or IUPUI.

UMVC? University of Missouri Valley College?

I was thinking IUPUI here but am leading toward IPFW now as Fort Wayne has it's own media market (no other D1 school present in the market) that to me is better than second fiddle in a larger market.
05-10-2017 06:07 AM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-10-2017 06:07 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 03:57 AM)NoDak Wrote:  There are tweets from Mavpuck, an Omaha message board moderator, that Omaha and maybe UMVC are preparing to accept Horizon invites. That may be possible if the Horizon is OK with flights. It would still need a travel partner for UIC, such as IPFW or IUPUI.

UMVC? University of Missouri Valley College?

I was thinking IUPUI here but am leading toward IPFW now as Fort Wayne has it's own media market (no other D1 school present in the market) that to me is better than second fiddle in a larger market.

UMKC obviously. Sorry.
05-10-2017 06:18 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-10-2017 06:18 AM)NoDak Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 06:07 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 03:57 AM)NoDak Wrote:  There are tweets from Mavpuck, an Omaha message board moderator, that Omaha and maybe UMVC are preparing to accept Horizon invites. That may be possible if the Horizon is OK with flights. It would still need a travel partner for UIC, such as IPFW or IUPUI.

UMVC? University of Missouri Valley College?

I was thinking IUPUI here but am leading toward IPFW now as Fort Wayne has it's own media market (no other D1 school present in the market) that to me is better than second fiddle in a larger market.

UMKC obviously. Sorry.

Just kidding.

Valpo yesterday became a U-MVC. University of the Missouri Valley Conference.

So they need a couple more U-MVC's if they want to move to 12.
05-10-2017 06:38 AM
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Post: #75
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
Adding Omaha, kc, and 1 Indiana school would make for good 6 team divisions for the horizon
05-10-2017 08:33 AM
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RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-10-2017 08:33 AM)bluesox Wrote:  Adding Omaha, kc, and 1 Indiana school would make for good 6 team divisions for the horizon

i don't understand peoples obsession with Omaha and KC. The with or without them the league is a 1 bid league - now and forever.

Why would any HL school or for that matter UMKC or Omaha want to do this? It's not as if going to the HL allows them to join a better conference. The reality is that the current Summit is a better basketball conference than the HL. Sure, the conference is not 100% basketball all the time because of the football schools but even with that distraction they are STILL better than the HL without Valpo.

But if the HL or Omaha/UMKC want to increase travel expenses by flying all of their sports way out of their footprint.... so be it. It will be more harmful to the schools than any benefit from adding those schools.
05-10-2017 10:22 AM
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jacksfan29 Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-10-2017 10:22 AM)NDSUguy Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 08:33 AM)bluesox Wrote:  Adding Omaha, kc, and 1 Indiana school would make for good 6 team divisions for the horizon

i don't understand peoples obsession with Omaha and KC. The with or without them the league is a 1 bid league - now and forever.

Why would any HL school or for that matter UMKC or Omaha want to do this? It's not as if going to the HL allows them to join a better conference. The reality is that the current Summit is a better basketball conference than the HL. Sure, the conference is not 100% basketball all the time because of the football schools but even with that distraction they are STILL better than the HL without Valpo.

But if the HL or Omaha/UMKC want to increase travel expenses by flying all of their sports way out of their footprint.... so be it. It will be more harmful to the schools than any benefit from adding those schools.

The Summit has ranked above the HL (with Valpo) for the past several years. If Omaha wants to move to a one bid league that is below the Summit and increase their travel expenses dramatically while at the same time they are losing money on their new arena more power to them. Soon they will be in the same situation as UMKC, begging for a new conference, or worse moving back down to D2.

Oh, and don't forget that $1 billion two year revenue shortfall in the state of NE. To make this move Trev will need to go in front of the Regents for a budget increase at a time budgets are getting slashed. That means UNO will need to get the Regents to agree to take athletic money from UNL and give it to UNO. Ya, that's going to happen.
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2017 11:13 AM by jacksfan29.)
05-10-2017 10:28 AM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Online
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Post: #78
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
UNO's shortest ride in Horizon would be 7:15. ORU + 4 Dakota's all fit under 7:15. Plus Denver is 7:40. #2 Horizon ride would be GB at 8:45.

Discluding UMKC as I think they'll go where UNO goes (Summit/Horizon) regardless.

I don't believe UNO entertains this move at all. Also they're a bit cash-strapped. Budget cuts, losing money on Baxter. Let a legendary hockey coach go to sign someone for bare minimum.
05-10-2017 10:54 AM
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jacksfan29 Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-10-2017 08:33 AM)bluesox Wrote:  Adding Omaha, kc, and 1 Indiana school would make for good 6 team divisions for the horizon

It would make two 6 divisions, not sure how "good" those divisions would be.

The HL, if they do this will be lowering their conference RPI dramatically. Losing Valpo would be bad enough, adding three schools who are upper 100s into the 200s in RPI (Omaha could be over 300 next year) will not help the league other then to adding additional costs to the remaining schools travel budgets.
05-10-2017 11:10 AM
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Mister Consistency Offline
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RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-10-2017 11:10 AM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  
(05-10-2017 08:33 AM)bluesox Wrote:  Adding Omaha, kc, and 1 Indiana school would make for good 6 team divisions for the horizon

It would make two 6 divisions, not sure how "good" those divisions would be.

The HL, if they do this will be lowering their conference RPI dramatically. Losing Valpo would be bad enough, adding three schools who are upper 100s into the 200s in RPI (Omaha could be over 300 next year) will not help the league other then to adding additional costs to the remaining schools travel budgets.

Omaha, IUPUI, and Fort Wayne would be right in the middle of the league in RPI. UNO would have had the fifth-highest RPI in the conference in 2016-17 and 2015-16. Fort Wayne has been above the median RPI of the remaining nine Horizon Leauge schools for three of the last four seasons (and missed by 5 places in 2014-15), while Omaha and IUPUI have been above it each of the last two years. The XDSUs, which have combined for the last five Summit League titles, have been above that median RPI each of the last four seasons, for what it's worth.

Are those schools going to keep the average RPI where it is? Probably not, but the Valley is about to have the same problem replacing Wichita State with Valpo, and poaching any of those Summit League schools would be a blow to the Summit, especially Fort Wayne, because, again, the schools they backfill with won't be as good. Every conference that has to replace a school that gets pulled to another league is going to face that problem. Butler and SLU are not walking through that door.

If the Horizon wanted to go to 14 with IUPUI, Fort Wayne, Omaha, and UMKC as part of that expansion (the other school could be RMU, Belmont, anybody, really), they could really hit the Summit League hard and create some space for themselves. Gotta think that's on the minds of the bigwigs.
(This post was last modified: 05-10-2017 12:32 PM by Mister Consistency.)
05-10-2017 12:31 PM
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