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Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
A point I left off on 11 teams for the Horizon. The assumption is 10th and 11th schools will have a higher RPI , say one at 90 and the other at 120 range. By going to 20 league games, with better RPI schools in the league, the ranking of the league would improve, giving a better chance of an at-large bid (the entire point of expansion).

But if the schools are 200 or lower, as are the schools suggested here (in fact closer to 300 than 200 since 2010), then they would have a very detrimental impact on the league ranking and performance. So far more important to the Horizon is high RPI than then location. But the location can't be ridiculous either.

I don't see one, let alone two 120 or higher RPI schools willing to join the Horizon. When you guys find that school I'll take this discussion seriously. Right now, all I see are talks based on "as a Dakota fan, I'd prefer the Indiana schools not be in my conference, so wouldn't it be great if we could somehow convince the Horizon to take them off our hands" sort of arguments. The little Purdue schools are in the Summit because nobody wants them. (This is why you don't add schools you really don't want, as you are stuck with them when you no longer need them; hence the Summit Dakota fans trying to eject them.)
05-09-2017 01:15 AM
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BruceMcF Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-08-2017 08:52 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  And to that end, I guess at the moment you could say that FW's MBB program is better. Plays in a nicer arena, and I think has higher attendance and RPI (not sure though). ...
Don't know long term, but last season they were ... RPI 0.4983 for Fort Wayne vs 0.4729 for IUPUI (175th vs 215th), and ESPN's power index had Fort Wayne at the top of the Summit with a BPI rank of 121st, vs 199th for IUPUI.

And while baseball may not be the most important issue, it is probably an issue ... non-FB conferences need to sponsor three men's team sports, and by their nature tend have a lot of schools near the minimum required number of men's sports, so a little leeway above the bare minimum requirement is a bit of an insurance policy for maintaining their Div I status in the face of possible non-FB conference turmoil if the Big East ever gets the word from Fox that they'll pay for the Big East to expand by two.
05-09-2017 01:43 AM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
There is a two year grace period and then a three year waiver. So a conference short on one sport can drag out expansion for five years to get back in compliance. This assumes the NCAA comes down on your conference and says "you need to get a waiver if you take it more than two years."

To be honest I think the NCAA is likely to loosen the rules due to so many schools cutting sports. They may say 5 women's sports and 2 men's in place of 3 Men's. Or maybe they will count Tennis as a Men's team sport. The last thing the NCAA wants to do, and frankly is not willing to do, is break up an otherwise solid conference over a rule like this.
05-09-2017 02:02 AM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
Would Horizen push to 12? Bellarmine in Louisville, Kentucky does have some good D2 basketball teams. Louisville would add another big market if they add them as well.

There are several schools in large tv markets in that area as well.
05-09-2017 02:15 AM
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dxdtdemon Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
I think they'll stay at nine for now, like they had some of the past few years (the gaps between Butler leaving and Oakland joining, and Loyoia leaving and NKU joining). There isn't anyone who would join that would improve the conference RPI, and the current addition candidates will still likely be around whenever Wright State goes bankrupt.
05-09-2017 05:57 AM
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Mister Consistency Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-09-2017 05:57 AM)dxdtdemon Wrote:  I think they'll stay at nine for now, like they had some of the past few years (the gaps between Butler leaving and Oakland joining, and Loyoia leaving and NKU joining). There isn't anyone who would join that would improve the conference RPI, and the current addition candidates will still likely be around whenever Wright State goes bankrupt.

No, they won't stay at nine, and LeCrone is on the record about it:

Quote:Horizon Commissioner Jonathan LeCrone said Friday that the MVC’s visits, including to schools within his league (Valparaiso and Milwaukee), are no secret. He has spoken openly about his intention to expand and said the Horizon will stay true to its value and plan, which transcends any movement of members.

“Whether we’re 10, whether we’re eight, whether we’re nine, we still have plans, no matter what our configuration is at any point in time, to grow larger,” he said. “We think larger is better. We think divisional play is good. And we have lots of members on our membership candidate list who are very interested in helping us achieve that vision no matter what our current membership movement might be.”

They will go to 12 (14 is tougher, but still doable) and those plans could be accelerated by a departure.
05-09-2017 08:20 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
When you see how the IUPU's have to have their work done for them at the main campus, you can begin to see why the private members and some of the public ones wanted no part of these guys.

The issue of doing business with these schools were that you weren't necessarily the same kind of school as the large state/landgrant institutions in the same footprint. But, those schools want their branch campuses, "runoff" dare I say, with these other schools.

You know the ceiling with these guys. If you think you're EVER going to get programs better than those run at the main campus, you're dreaming. It's always a derivative or a minor league to the main campus. Whereas with these other schools, they can't necessarily compete head-to-head (well, Butler proved that one wrong), but you could be different and still independent of "respect of the rank."
(This post was last modified: 05-09-2017 09:38 AM by The Cutter of Bish.)
05-09-2017 09:33 AM
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jacksfan29 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-09-2017 01:43 AM)BruceMcF Wrote:  
(05-08-2017 08:52 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  And to that end, I guess at the moment you could say that FW's MBB program is better. Plays in a nicer arena, and I think has higher attendance and RPI (not sure though). ...
Don't know long term, but last season they were ... RPI 0.4983 for Fort Wayne vs 0.4729 for IUPUI (175th vs 215th), and ESPN's power index had Fort Wayne at the top of the Summit with a BPI rank of 121st, vs 199th for IUPUI.

And while baseball may not be the most important issue, it is probably an issue ... non-FB conferences need to sponsor three men's team sports, and by their nature tend have a lot of schools near the minimum required number of men's sports, so a little leeway above the bare minimum requirement is a bit of an insurance policy for maintaining their Div I status in the face of possible non-FB conference turmoil if the Big East ever gets the word from Fox that they'll pay for the Big East to expand by two.

IPFW has had a better basketball program for many years, following Hunter's departure IUPUI have struggled. They are always very athletic, just not disciplined. Baseball is a big issue for both the HL and Summit which makes IPFW much more attractive.
05-09-2017 10:01 AM
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solohawks Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
With Valpo now being the only candidate leaving officially I would guess the Horizon at minimum would expand by 1.

I am going to guess that Omaha will get that spot based on articles I have seen. The Horizon could go to 12 and completely gut the Summit take both IUPU's as well. UMKC may be in the mix if Horizon wants to go to 12. Horizon seems to be pushing themselves as big Midwestern markets so they have options.
05-09-2017 10:43 AM
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NDSUguy Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-09-2017 10:43 AM)solohawks Wrote:  With Valpo now being the only candidate leaving officially I would guess the Horizon at minimum would expand by 1.

I am going to guess that Omaha will get that spot based on articles I have seen. The Horizon could go to 12 and completely gut the Summit take both IUPU's as well. UMKC may be in the mix if Horizon wants to go to 12. Horizon seems to be pushing themselves as big Midwestern markets so they have options.

Without Valpo the Horizon is NOT a better conference than the current Summit. The eastern schools in the Summit might be swayed but there is NO chance that any western schools (i.e. Omaha/Denver or UMKC) would want to increase their expenses just so that they can say that they are in a "city" league. No benefit in that.
05-09-2017 10:54 AM
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solohawks Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
Read the article from the Omaha AD I believe...he seemed intrigued by the Horizon
05-09-2017 10:58 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-09-2017 10:43 AM)solohawks Wrote:  With Valpo now being the only candidate leaving officially I would guess the Horizon at minimum would expand by 1.

I am going to guess that Omaha will get that spot based on articles I have seen. The Horizon could go to 12 and completely gut the Summit take both IUPU's as well. UMKC may be in the mix if Horizon wants to go to 12. Horizon seems to be pushing themselves as big Midwestern markets so they have options.

Some of the Horizon thinking here may be that if they go to 12 and they do it right that it may be enough to prevent another MVC raid.

Horizon geography:

West: Green Bay, Milwaukee, Illinois-Chicago
East: Oakland, Detroit, YSU, Wright St, Cleveland St, NKU

The only way to push to 12 and two divisions would be to add 3 schools to the west.

IUPUI would have to go into the west division. I guess that would also apply Fort Wayne though I feel like its a market that orients toward Ohio/Michigan rather than looking west.

Then the 12th school comes down to UNO or UMKC. My choice would be UMKC because of cheaper flights in this case.
05-09-2017 11:01 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-09-2017 10:54 AM)NDSUguy Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 10:43 AM)solohawks Wrote:  With Valpo now being the only candidate leaving officially I would guess the Horizon at minimum would expand by 1.

I am going to guess that Omaha will get that spot based on articles I have seen. The Horizon could go to 12 and completely gut the Summit take both IUPU's as well. UMKC may be in the mix if Horizon wants to go to 12. Horizon seems to be pushing themselves as big Midwestern markets so they have options.

Without Valpo the Horizon is NOT a better conference than the current Summit. The eastern schools in the Summit might be swayed but there is NO chance that any western schools (i.e. Omaha/Denver or UMKC) would want to increase their expenses just so that they can say that they are in a "city" league. No benefit in that.

Kansas City I would think be a cheap flight to Chicago, Detroit or Cincinnati the main cities to fly into with the Horizon.
05-09-2017 11:05 AM
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NDSUguy Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-09-2017 10:58 AM)solohawks Wrote:  Read the article from the Omaha AD I believe...he seemed intrigued by the Horizon

That would be a bad choice. Downgrade conferences for increased travel expenses.... All that to be in a 1 bid league...
05-09-2017 11:05 AM
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insomniaisevil Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
The Horizon is currently based around 5 sets of travel partners. That's part of why Fort Wayne makes sense to replace Valpo, as they could still be a travel partner with UIC.

That's also why, if you take Omaha, I'd assume that maybe you go with UMKC as well, as they could work as a travel pair as well.

That might be a route to 12, though I'm not sure if the combo of Fort Wayne, UMKC and Omaha really help the conference or not.

Currently:

Detroit/Oakland
Wright State/NKU
Youngstown State/Cleveland State
Green Bay/Milwaukee
UIC/???
(This post was last modified: 05-09-2017 01:11 PM by insomniaisevil.)
05-09-2017 11:06 AM
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MissouriStateBears Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-09-2017 11:01 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 10:43 AM)solohawks Wrote:  With Valpo now being the only candidate leaving officially I would guess the Horizon at minimum would expand by 1.

I am going to guess that Omaha will get that spot based on articles I have seen. The Horizon could go to 12 and completely gut the Summit take both IUPU's as well. UMKC may be in the mix if Horizon wants to go to 12. Horizon seems to be pushing themselves as big Midwestern markets so they have options.

Some of the Horizon thinking here may be that if they go to 12 and they do it right that it may be enough to prevent another MVC raid.

Horizon geography:

West: Green Bay, Milwaukee, Illinois-Chicago
East: Oakland, Detroit, YSU, Wright St, Cleveland St, NKU

The only way to push to 12 and two divisions would be to add 3 schools to the west.

IUPUI would have to go into the west division. I guess that would also apply Fort Wayne though I feel like its a market that orients toward Ohio/Michigan rather than looking west.

Then the 12th school comes down to UNO or UMKC. My choice would be UMKC because of cheaper flights in this case.

SIUE before Omaha or UMKC. St. Louis is lot easier and bus friendly for the Horizon League with the same result.
05-09-2017 11:06 AM
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NDSUguy Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-09-2017 11:01 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 10:43 AM)solohawks Wrote:  With Valpo now being the only candidate leaving officially I would guess the Horizon at minimum would expand by 1.

I am going to guess that Omaha will get that spot based on articles I have seen. The Horizon could go to 12 and completely gut the Summit take both IUPU's as well. UMKC may be in the mix if Horizon wants to go to 12. Horizon seems to be pushing themselves as big Midwestern markets so they have options.

Some of the Horizon thinking here may be that if they go to 12 and they do it right that it may be enough to prevent another MVC raid.

Horizon geography:

West: Green Bay, Milwaukee, Illinois-Chicago
East: Oakland, Detroit, YSU, Wright St, Cleveland St, NKU

The only way to push to 12 and two divisions would be to add 3 schools to the west.

IUPUI would have to go into the west division. I guess that would also apply Fort Wayne though I feel like its a market that orients toward Ohio/Michigan rather than looking west.

Then the 12th school comes down to UNO or UMKC. My choice would be UMKC because of cheaper flights in this case.

IF they want to go to 12 schools they would be better off going with Western Illinois over UMKC or Omaha. That is the backwards thinking of the Horizon League. They think that markets mean something when in reality they don't - at least not with UNO or UMKC. They should get to 12 by tightening their footprint not expanding it.
05-09-2017 11:08 AM
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Soobahk40050 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-09-2017 11:08 AM)NDSUguy Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 11:01 AM)Kittonhead Wrote:  
(05-09-2017 10:43 AM)solohawks Wrote:  With Valpo now being the only candidate leaving officially I would guess the Horizon at minimum would expand by 1.

I am going to guess that Omaha will get that spot based on articles I have seen. The Horizon could go to 12 and completely gut the Summit take both IUPU's as well. UMKC may be in the mix if Horizon wants to go to 12. Horizon seems to be pushing themselves as big Midwestern markets so they have options.

Some of the Horizon thinking here may be that if they go to 12 and they do it right that it may be enough to prevent another MVC raid.

Horizon geography:

West: Green Bay, Milwaukee, Illinois-Chicago
East: Oakland, Detroit, YSU, Wright St, Cleveland St, NKU

The only way to push to 12 and two divisions would be to add 3 schools to the west.

IUPUI would have to go into the west division. I guess that would also apply Fort Wayne though I feel like its a market that orients toward Ohio/Michigan rather than looking west.

Then the 12th school comes down to UNO or UMKC. My choice would be UMKC because of cheaper flights in this case.

IF they want to go to 12 schools they would be better off going with Western Illinois over UMKC or Omaha. That is the backwards thinking of the Horizon League. They think that markets mean something when in reality they don't - at least not with UNO or UMKC. They should get to 12 by tightening their footprint not expanding it.

As a current KC resident (outside the city proper), I think if UMKC joined the right league and invested just a little bit more in the program, particularly in marketing, it could be a great pick up for any conference. In baseball, KC has the Royals, in football the Chiefs, and even Sporting KC has a good following. But since we don't have an NBA team, UMKC could become Kansas City's basketball team. Get in a conference with a couple natural rivals and I think people would have alot of fun at games.
05-09-2017 11:28 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(05-09-2017 11:06 AM)insomniaisevil Wrote:  The Horizon is currently based around 5 sets of travel partners. That's part of why Fort Wayne makes sense to replace Valpo, as they could still be a travel partner with UIC.

That's also why, if you take Omaha, I'd assume that maybe you go with UMKC as well, as they could work as a travel pair as well.

That might be a route to 12, though I'm not sure if the combo of Fort Wayne, UMKC and Omaha really help the conference or not.

Currently:

Detroit/Oakland
Wright State/NKU
Youngstown State/Cleveland State
Detroit/Oakland
UIC/???

IUPUI is in Indianapolis, a bigger market than Ft. Wayne and more Chicago centric than Ft. Wayne.

Then it would be IUPUI, UNO and UMKC with IUPUI going as a travel partner for UIC.
05-09-2017 11:30 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
My vote's on Robert Morris. A private for a private.

NJIT's ship comes in, either directly into the vacated NEC spot, or someone from AmEast bolts.
05-09-2017 11:31 AM
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