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Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
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Lopes87 Online
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Post: #221
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
I would think GCU and NMSU would be the 2 best teams in the Horizon if they joined more years than not. NMSU has the D-1 history GCU has the cash and the name recognition to turn into a big time mid major school
06-05-2017 12:18 AM
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Stugray2 Online
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Post: #222
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
The WAC does not inspire confidence among it's members. The talk by UCSD of partnering with CSU Bakersfield might be the straw that breaks the camels back if there is any real traction with the concept among the Big West Presidents and Chancellors.

GCU does not see it's future in the WAC, rather they see it as a first step to get where they are going. They are run by hard nosed realists (not unrealistic fans), and know the WCC is decades away for them (need to acquire blue blood stature to get in that league), and that the Big West is a non starter due to the opposition of the UC Chancellors to any religious school or any for-profit (it's almost dogma that they oppose such things). So they are looking for bigger ponds. NMSU was looking as well, ad both it seems have been in talks with the Horizon. The stability gained by such a move cannot be overstated. Exiting a league where Chicago State seems destined to be an NAIA/D-II school in two years, where UTRGV and UVU are members because there is nowhere else for them, and they are not who GCU wants to be associated with.

There wont be a WAC in 2018-19 if that happens. Cal Baptist will probably withdraw it's D-I transition, since it's sponsorship will be gone. Seattle and UMKC will be desperately looking for conferences to join.

That is not a very stable and sure bet. An 11 and potentially 12 school Horizon is a lot safer bet.
06-05-2017 12:27 AM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #223
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(06-04-2017 11:48 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  WAC>Horizon

Especially if you are located in the west.

UMKC is not really in the west and Chicago St is.....not really much of anything.
06-05-2017 12:39 AM
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templefootballfan Offline
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Post: #224
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
allright Stu, even what u said makes sence.
why not wait on Summit, Horizon could hit them hard
why is rebuilding out, 3 pockets of schools out there
SW corner, Tex, Midwest
why is WAC not chasing southern B-Sky schools
06-05-2017 01:01 AM
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chargeradio Online
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Post: #225
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
Everyone in the Big Sky plays FCS football, so the WAC either needs to get six FCS members, or arrange for the Big Sky to provide football-only membership. Honestly if Grand Canyon leaves, the WAC loses a lot of appeal for Northern Arizona and Southern Utah, who are really the only "southern" members.

If the WAC gets down to five (Seattle, Utah Valley, UMKC, UTRGV, and Cal Baptist), the best the WAC can hope for is a cooperative Big Sky. The Big Sky sheds Portland State (geography), Sacramento State (geography, plays baseball) and Northern Colorado (geography, plays baseball) to put both sides at eight schools:

Eastern Washington/Idaho
Idaho State/Weber State
Montana/Montana State
Southern Utah/Northern Arizona

Seattle/Portland State
Sacramento State/CSU Bakersfield
Utah Valley/Northern Colorado
UTRGV/UMKC

If UMKC walks then the WAC has to take an existing DI school due to Cal Baptist's transitional status. The WAC gets Southern Utah and the Big Sky takes Azusa Pacific.
06-05-2017 06:08 AM
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SoCalBobcat78 Offline
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Post: #226
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(06-05-2017 01:01 AM)templefootballfan Wrote:  allright Stu, even what u said makes sence.
why not wait on Summit, Horizon could hit them hard
why is rebuilding out, 3 pockets of schools out there
SW corner, Tex, Midwest
why is WAC not chasing southern B-Sky schools

No, it does not make sense. CSU Bakersfield is not going into the Big West with UCSD. That idea came from the UCSD President, but no one else. The Big West is content with their current nine team format. It might make sense to add a 10th school, but not two schools and CSU Bakersfield would not be a great academic/market add fir the Big West. I think they are happy in the WAC.

CSU Bakersfield, GCU and Utah Valley were very involved in bringing Cal Baptist on-board. Cal Baptist just opened up their new $73 million arena,with 5,200 seats and easily expandable to 6,000. GCU and Cal Baptist were rivals in D2 and Cal Baptist is a bus trip for GCU. I think CBU will be the next GCU.

Losing the WAC would hurt Western schools, costing the west another auto-bid. So why should any western school do any favors for the Horizon? There are three schools with larger budgets in the WAC than the Horizon schools:

GCU at $4.3 million
Seattle at $3.4 million
NMSU at $3 million

CSU Bakersfield has been arguably the best team in the WAC the past two seasons. UMKC is coming off their first winning season in years. UTRGV is opening up a new 8,200 seat arena in the fall. Their opening game in their new arena will be against Oklahoma. UVU is coming off a 17-17 season which includes a win at BYU. Seattle has underperformed, but hopefully their new head coach can turn it around.

With Cal Baptist coming aboard in 2018, the WAC gets into the Southern California market. GCU practically lives in Southern California. They advertise on TV all the time in LA and they recruit here. They get 25% of their on-campus students from California. Why would they want to be in the Horizon? This may be a fantasy among fans of the Horizon, but it is not real.
06-05-2017 09:58 AM
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jacksfan29 Offline
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Post: #227
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(06-04-2017 04:48 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(06-04-2017 03:11 PM)NoDak Wrote:  GCU has the resources to offer travel allowances to the Horizon. Horizon teams would be able to travel once to Phoenix in the dead of winter and what Midwest team doesn't want that? Also would give the Horizon a small part of a big market. Overall, a GCU/NMSU pair offers some sort of promise of higher RPI than a pair of IPFW/IUPUI or Omaha/UMKC. Doubt the Horizon would get two bids, but it may be worth the shot.

GCU and NMSU won't be in the Horizon for long, so it's not a long term commitment, which is normally the case with conferences. NMSU only stays until it gets an FBS bid. GCU will be fully eligible now and they aren't going to waste the opportunity, as it wants to be a Gonzaga and has the money to do it.

So you think GCU is going to pay travel subsidies, increased travel expenses and a $1.1 million entry fee to join a league that is not any better than the WAC? So they can take longer trips? Do you think that would be in anyway attractive to a public school like NMSU?

Exactly. Why would a school, with over 60% of graduates coming from AZ, CA, TX pay millions for subsidized travel to move to a one bid league in the Great Lakes?

The smartest thing GCU can do is build the WAC (which they are doing) and utilize their new eligibility to take a few NCAA tournament trips. They also need get back on the non-profit route. They do that and they will have a shot at the WCC. The Horizon League does nothing for GCU or NMSU. The WAC is as good a league today as the HL are without Valpo. The WAC is getting stronger while the HL is getting weaker. Pretty easy decision.
06-05-2017 10:22 AM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #228
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(06-05-2017 10:22 AM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  
(06-04-2017 04:48 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(06-04-2017 03:11 PM)NoDak Wrote:  GCU has the resources to offer travel allowances to the Horizon. Horizon teams would be able to travel once to Phoenix in the dead of winter and what Midwest team doesn't want that? Also would give the Horizon a small part of a big market. Overall, a GCU/NMSU pair offers some sort of promise of higher RPI than a pair of IPFW/IUPUI or Omaha/UMKC. Doubt the Horizon would get two bids, but it may be worth the shot.

GCU and NMSU won't be in the Horizon for long, so it's not a long term commitment, which is normally the case with conferences. NMSU only stays until it gets an FBS bid. GCU will be fully eligible now and they aren't going to waste the opportunity, as it wants to be a Gonzaga and has the money to do it.

So you think GCU is going to pay travel subsidies, increased travel expenses and a $1.1 million entry fee to join a league that is not any better than the WAC? So they can take longer trips? Do you think that would be in anyway attractive to a public school like NMSU?

Exactly. Why would a school, with over 60% of graduates coming from AZ, CA, TX pay millions for subsidized travel to move to a one bid league in the Great Lakes?

The smartest thing GCU can do is build the WAC (which they are doing) and utilize their new eligibility to take a few NCAA tournament trips. They also need get back on the non-profit route. They do that and they will have a shot at the WCC. The Horizon League does nothing for GCU or NMSU. The WAC is as good a league today as the HL are without Valpo. The WAC is getting stronger while the HL is getting weaker. Pretty easy decision.

GCU isn't tied to in-state tuition, that's why. If more Midwesterners enroll, GCU stock goes up. Pretty simple, but many don't understand. California is already covered by advertising, not in the form of the WAC.

Not saying it happens, but there are legitimate business reasons to switch.
(This post was last modified: 06-05-2017 10:39 AM by NoDak.)
06-05-2017 10:38 AM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #229
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
With talks about Cal.-San Diego, Azusa Pacific, San Francisco State and Cal. State-L.A. to the WAC? In the future, Big West could grab UC-San Diego, Hawaii-Hilo and San Francisco State to go to 12. I do think San Francisco State is better image than Cal. State-Bakersfield.
06-05-2017 12:08 PM
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jacksfan29 Offline
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Post: #230
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(06-05-2017 10:38 AM)NoDak Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 10:22 AM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  
(06-04-2017 04:48 PM)SoCalBobcat78 Wrote:  
(06-04-2017 03:11 PM)NoDak Wrote:  GCU has the resources to offer travel allowances to the Horizon. Horizon teams would be able to travel once to Phoenix in the dead of winter and what Midwest team doesn't want that? Also would give the Horizon a small part of a big market. Overall, a GCU/NMSU pair offers some sort of promise of higher RPI than a pair of IPFW/IUPUI or Omaha/UMKC. Doubt the Horizon would get two bids, but it may be worth the shot.

GCU and NMSU won't be in the Horizon for long, so it's not a long term commitment, which is normally the case with conferences. NMSU only stays until it gets an FBS bid. GCU will be fully eligible now and they aren't going to waste the opportunity, as it wants to be a Gonzaga and has the money to do it.

So you think GCU is going to pay travel subsidies, increased travel expenses and a $1.1 million entry fee to join a league that is not any better than the WAC? So they can take longer trips? Do you think that would be in anyway attractive to a public school like NMSU?

Exactly. Why would a school, with over 60% of graduates coming from AZ, CA, TX pay millions for subsidized travel to move to a one bid league in the Great Lakes?

The smartest thing GCU can do is build the WAC (which they are doing) and utilize their new eligibility to take a few NCAA tournament trips. They also need get back on the non-profit route. They do that and they will have a shot at the WCC. The Horizon League does nothing for GCU or NMSU. The WAC is as good a league today as the HL are without Valpo. The WAC is getting stronger while the HL is getting weaker. Pretty easy decision.

GCU isn't tied to in-state tuition, that's why. If more Midwesterners enroll, GCU stock goes up. Pretty simple, but many don't understand. California is already covered by advertising, not in the form of the WAC.

Not saying it happens, but there are legitimate business reasons to switch.

They are already in the Midwestern market. GCU can advertise and recruit students from across the country, and they do. One of the biggest states providing graduates at GCU is Florida. Maybe they should push for the SBC. It would be a better move for them then the HL. GCU don't need exposure in the Midwest, they already have it. What they need now is to back up all the hype with two or more trips to the NCAA tournament. That, and going non-profit could very well get them an invite into the WCC.

The HL is a one bid league with very little shot at becoming a two bid league anytime soon. The WAC is a one bid league but has stronger programs at the top. GCU is going nowhere.
06-05-2017 01:09 PM
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Post: #231
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(06-05-2017 12:08 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  With talks about Cal.-San Diego, Azusa Pacific, San Francisco State and Cal. State-L.A. to the WAC? In the future, Big West could grab UC-San Diego, Hawaii-Hilo and San Francisco State to go to 12. I do think San Francisco State is better image than Cal. State-Bakersfield.

APU is at least 3 years away, and Football is an issue that has to be resolved. No sure thing.

SF State and Cal State LA are non starters. Neither is remotely possible (as in no student or alumni support, no money, inadequate facilities, and in the case of SF State no physical space to make any upgrades anyway). And there is no Hawaii school on the list.

If GCU and NMSU can swing a Horizon invite, they'd go in a heartbeat. CSU Bakersfield would jump at the Big West and a chance to be in an almost all California league of CSU and UC schools - they have applied at least twice in the last dozen years; it's no secret their preference. There is a lot of "if" in the above. But *if* the UCSD Chancellor is correct and a partnership with CSU Bakersfield is what it takes to get their Big West invite, and *if* GCU (and presumably NMSU) and the Horizon come to an agreement, then the WAC would collapse. The WAC is based on the premise that four schools UVU, CSUB, GCU, and coming on board CBU form a long term core. The above *if* scenario removes 2 of those 4 core schools from the WAC and would likely cause a CBU stay in D-II. That is fatal.
06-05-2017 04:00 PM
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Post: #232
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(06-05-2017 04:00 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 12:08 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  With talks about Cal.-San Diego, Azusa Pacific, San Francisco State and Cal. State-L.A. to the WAC? In the future, Big West could grab UC-San Diego, Hawaii-Hilo and San Francisco State to go to 12. I do think San Francisco State is better image than Cal. State-Bakersfield.

APU is at least 3 years away, and Football is an issue that has to be resolved. No sure thing.

SF State and Cal State LA are non starters. Neither is remotely possible (as in no student or alumni support, no money, inadequate facilities, and in the case of SF State no physical space to make any upgrades anyway). And there is no Hawaii school on the list.

If GCU and NMSU can swing a Horizon invite, they'd go in a heartbeat. CSU Bakersfield would jump at the Big West and a chance to be in an almost all California league of CSU and UC schools - they have applied at least twice in the last dozen years; it's no secret their preference. There is a lot of "if" in the above. But *if* the UCSD Chancellor is correct and a partnership with CSU Bakersfield is what it takes to get their Big West invite, and *if* GCU (and presumably NMSU) and the Horizon come to an agreement, then the WAC would collapse. The WAC is based on the premise that four schools UVU, CSUB, GCU, and coming on board CBU form a long term core. The above *if* scenario removes 2 of those 4 core schools from the WAC and would likely cause a CBU stay in D-II. That is fatal.

The first rule of expansion. Never move from a one bid league to another unless their is a cost benefit. What cost benefit is there for GCU and NMSU to depart for a Great Lakes bus league whose top two members are, a school who just finished their transition from D2 and another who joined the league 4 years ago and has already openly flirted with the A10?

I also think, just like the MVC expansion panic, that what LaCrone says in public and what fans think is very different from what the majority of school Presidents want. I have a hard time seeing Cleveland, YSU, Wright State, Detroit, Oakland, Green Bay or NKU voting to send their non-revenue sports to Phoenix and LC/El Paso.

The Horizon will invite RMU and sit tight. If they need to go to 12 the will invite IUPUI and IPFW and stay a bus league. They have few options. GCU and NMSU, no. Omaha and DU would both need to pay out $1.5 million (they agreed to pay $500K extra if they leave before 8 years) to leave the Summit and Omaha are already in dire straights financially. DU want to go west, they have no desire to join a Great Lakes league that is currently ranked below the Summit in every sport but baseball (which they don't play). Murray State want the MVC. Belmont won't leave the OVC for the Horizon. UMKC (maybe) but they also want the MVC. WIU is a FB school first who are already in the top FCS league and will not leave. The Horizon can shop the ASUN or wait out a D2 move up.
(This post was last modified: 06-07-2017 09:51 AM by jacksfan29.)
06-07-2017 09:50 AM
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Post: #233
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
Has there been anything official released, lately? Is it safe to say that Horizon will have nine for 2017-18?
06-07-2017 11:47 AM
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Post: #234
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(06-03-2017 08:12 PM)Chuck_A Wrote:  They're talking to each other because they each want to try to help the other uplift it's profile.

Do you have even a shred of proof, of this? That is a straight up question, not an insult. Please believe me.

I suspect there is no such thing as proof, for any of this. I doubt if it's even hearsay, at this point. It sounds to me more like the wishful thinking of message boards. And as such, it will either never happen, which doesn't prove or disprove anything, or it will suddenly happen with no warning, and you'll claim victory.

But until then, I refuse to believe the HL has had any talks, whatsoever, with NM St or GCU.
06-07-2017 11:50 AM
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Post: #235
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(06-05-2017 04:00 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  But *if* the UCSD Chancellor is correct and a partnership with CSU Bakersfield is what it takes to get their Big West invite, and *if* GCU (and presumably NMSU) and the Horizon come to an agreement, then the WAC would collapse. The WAC is based on the premise that four schools UVU, CSUB, GCU, and coming on board CBU form a long term core. The above *if* scenario removes 2 of those 4 core schools from the WAC and would likely cause a CBU stay in D-II. That is fatal.

Assuming Chicago St is dead, or at the very least will be let go by the WAC, that leaves the WAC with only: Kansas City, Seattle, Rio Grande, Utah Valley, and Cal Baptist.

Unless .......... you happen to believe that a few other schools would be willing to join the WAC, from another western conference. Not saying that's what I believe, but I am saying such a scenario would allow the WAC to survive to fight another day.

Seattle - Portland St
Utah Valley - Southern Utah
Kansas City - Northern Colorado
Rio Grande
Cal Baptist - Sac St
06-07-2017 12:06 PM
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Post: #236
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(06-07-2017 12:06 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(06-05-2017 04:00 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  But *if* the UCSD Chancellor is correct and a partnership with CSU Bakersfield is what it takes to get their Big West invite, and *if* GCU (and presumably NMSU) and the Horizon come to an agreement, then the WAC would collapse. The WAC is based on the premise that four schools UVU, CSUB, GCU, and coming on board CBU form a long term core. The above *if* scenario removes 2 of those 4 core schools from the WAC and would likely cause a CBU stay in D-II. That is fatal.

Assuming Chicago St is dead, or at the very least will be let go by the WAC, that leaves the WAC with only: Kansas City, Seattle, Rio Grande, Utah Valley, and Cal Baptist.

Unless .......... you happen to believe that a few other schools would be willing to join the WAC, from another western conference. Not saying that's what I believe, but I am saying such a scenario would allow the WAC to survive to fight another day.

Seattle - Portland St
Utah Valley - Southern Utah
Kansas City - Northern Colorado
Rio Grande
Cal Baptist - Sac St

If Portland State ever dropped football, they might consider the WAC. Until then, they are not leaving.

Same with SUU, UNC and Sac State.

And I would suspect that if UNC ever left the Big Sky, it would be for the Summit League to rejoin old NCC mates.
06-07-2017 12:10 PM
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Post: #237
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
Well, at the point where those five (including a move-up!) are the only WAC left, you could just as easily see UMKC returning to the Summit.

I was just trying to conjure up a scenario where the WAC could survive. And the scenario I'm referring to would have to be something like "the Big Sky is going to prune members back to just the more original type members, for some reason". I think it would have to be like that, where those members (or some of them) were "forced out" rather than voluntarily leaving.


It would be too bad if the WAC died. It's a historic brand, and it's also the 32nd auto-bid for the NCAA tournaments. Not that it really matters that much ... but anyway ...
(This post was last modified: 06-07-2017 12:19 PM by MplsBison.)
06-07-2017 12:18 PM
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Post: #238
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(06-07-2017 09:50 AM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  The first rule of expansion. Never move from a one bid league to another unless their is a cost benefit. What cost benefit is there for GCU and NMSU to depart for a Great Lakes bus league whose top two members are, a school who just finished their transition from D2 and another who joined the league 4 years ago and has already openly flirted with the A10?

...

The Benefit is stability. Chicago State will not be in D-I in two years. That decision will not be about the WAC but about the condition of Chicago State. It is what it is. The loss of CSUB, should UCSD be successful, would pull the WAC down to 7 schools. GCU is clearly going to do what it is going to do, which means leave ASAP.

Given the above for NMSU, if the first two look likely, then they are going to go with GCU to the Horizon and not have to worry about being in a conference without an AQ. They really would have no other choice.

Big West expansion decisions are out of their hands, and Grand Canyon is beyond anyone's control. The rest of the WAC, even if it hung together would further erode the credibility of NMSU as a major program. These are basically programs in the high 200 and 300 RPI range. This really wouldn't be a difficult decision.
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Post: #239
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(06-07-2017 04:05 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  
(06-07-2017 09:50 AM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  The first rule of expansion. Never move from a one bid league to another unless their is a cost benefit. What cost benefit is there for GCU and NMSU to depart for a Great Lakes bus league whose top two members are, a school who just finished their transition from D2 and another who joined the league 4 years ago and has already openly flirted with the A10?

...

The Benefit is stability. Chicago State will not be in D-I in two years. That decision will not be about the WAC but about the condition of Chicago State. It is what it is. The loss of CSUB, should UCSD be successful, would pull the WAC down to 7 schools. GCU is clearly going to do what it is going to do, which means leave ASAP.

Given the above for NMSU, if the first two look likely, then they are going to go with GCU to the Horizon and not have to worry about being in a conference without an AQ. They really would have no other choice.

Big West expansion decisions are out of their hands, and Grand Canyon is beyond anyone's control. The rest of the WAC, even if it hung together would further erode the credibility of NMSU as a major program. These are basically programs in the high 200 and 300 RPI range. This really wouldn't be a difficult decision.

NMSU would be thrilled if Chicago State were gone. UCSD is not going to get their way and GCU has to get an invite, if they even want one. Again, do you really think the Great Lakes schools are going to jump at the chance to take their VB teams to Phoenix and El Paso? We'll see but all the discussion is reminiscent of the MVC expansion talk. And nothing came of it. Bus leagues like being bus leagues. Expect the HL to remain a bus league.
06-07-2017 04:12 PM
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jacksfan29 Offline
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Post: #240
RE: Fort Wayne or IUPUI to Horizon?
(06-07-2017 11:50 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(06-03-2017 08:12 PM)Chuck_A Wrote:  They're talking to each other because they each want to try to help the other uplift it's profile.

Do you have even a shred of proof, of this? That is a straight up question, not an insult. Please believe me.

I suspect there is no such thing as proof, for any of this. I doubt if it's even hearsay, at this point. It sounds to me more like the wishful thinking of message boards. And as such, it will either never happen, which doesn't prove or disprove anything, or it will suddenly happen with no warning, and you'll claim victory.

But until then, I refuse to believe the HL has had any talks, whatsoever, with NM St or GCU.

He doesn't. It's nothing but hopeful thinking which he has posted on a lot of sites. The only proven in regards to the HL so far? They will play with 9 next year and they have talked to RUM. NMSU and GCU? Outside of media rumors and a rumor last year that the HL had talked to NMSU there is nothing.

And remember, if NMSU did talk to the HL last year it was while they were attempting to decide what to do with football. My guess is they talked to a lot of people. Going Independent was a HUGE decision.
06-07-2017 04:18 PM
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