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Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #1
Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
Its coming IMHO. The long held dream of the NoDak schools aligning with the Montana schools is coming. The Summit League can be in big trouble this week when the MVC announces new school (s). The Horizon and maybe the OVC also in turn backfill so the Summit loses its eastern wing. What does the Summit do? No reasonable schools will join a Dakota based league unless is was for hockey.

UND moves to the Summit next year and fb to the MVFC in 2020? Why the delay? Because it knows the MVFC won't exist in its present form and doesn't want it? The MVC has just been using Dakota fb as a cheap trick to fill out their schedules and doesn't want a permanent relationship, as the lack of MVC site visits have shown.

When the Summit cries out for new teams, Idaho will express interest with two conditions: the Montanas have to come aboard too and the conference must consider FBS in the future. The Montanas hem and haw but give preliminary interest. NDSU, SDSU and USD announce they are interested because what choice do they have? UND isn't interested unless it gets a new stadium. But surprise surprise as a donated one gets announced this summer. So UND is in.

EWU has to go in because those three neighboring schools mean much more for its athletics than the rest of the Big Sky.

So four new Summit schools are announced. But they have to play together two years before they get an FCS autobid. They play fb as a Division in the Big Sky for those two years and then break off.

The Old Summit
IPFW - to the Horizon League
IUPUI - to the Horizon or OVC or even the ASUN
W Ill - to the OVC
Omaha - can stay or the Horizon or even the WAC
ORU - back to the Southland or to the WAC out of choice
Denver - can stay
UND, NDSU, SDSU, USD - form the eastern wing of this new conference

Baseball has a problem, but the Horizon and MVC needs teams
Men's soccer has a problem too, but the same leagues plus the MAC provide affiliations spots

The Summit has always been a transient conference. This configuration would be almost guaranteed permanent for the fb schools as no other league tolerate their geography. The whole league applies for an FBS waiver in the early 2020's.

The Northern League or the Great Northern Conference or the American Outback Conference
UND
NDSU
SDSU
USD
Omaha
Denver
Montana
Montana St
Idaho
EWU

Seattle and Weber St can join later

The Big Sky will survive with seven teams, but must start adding DII's like Dixie St and Azusa Pacific. The MVFC will survive as a rump league with Youngstown St.
(This post was last modified: 05-06-2017 08:53 PM by NoDak.)
05-06-2017 07:16 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
I agree it would be a nice conference for everyone involved.
05-06-2017 08:28 PM
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NoDak Offline
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-06-2017 08:28 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  I agree it would be a nice conference for everyone involved.

All except the SD schools, who believe they are MVC material as UNI is a member. Some NDSU fans realized how mistaken their dreams were, even after spending almost $40 million their quonset hut bball court.

Denver would move on if it got a better offer.

This league would be comparable to the MAC in stability. Academically, on par with more professional schools. The schools already work together in some areas. Would be a good academic consortium for regional issues.

The league can't go the DII route for backfilling, as the transitions take too long.
(This post was last modified: 05-06-2017 08:49 PM by NoDak.)
05-06-2017 08:40 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
Through in some Minnesota schools, Northern Colorado, Ft. Hays State, Washburn, Missouri Western/UMKC and any of the Nebraska schools like Wayne State/Chadron State/Kearney.
05-06-2017 09:55 PM
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dxdtdemon Offline
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
If Valparaiso is the only team leaving the Horizon League, I think that they will stay put with their current membership until a) a conference with football gives Youngstown State full membership, or b) Wright State has to cut its athletic department. The nine members that aren't Valparaiso include at least six in each of the team sports the Horizon League sponsors, and the NCAA check gets cut nine ways instead of ten. I also don't understand why Omaha can't be in your new league. It seems way more geographically and athletically appropriate there.
05-06-2017 10:20 PM
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shizzle787 Offline
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
It should happen with the Dakota schools, the Montana schools, the Idaho schools, and 1 or 2 more.
05-06-2017 11:00 PM
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NoDak Offline
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-06-2017 09:55 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Through in some Minnesota schools, Northern Colorado, Ft. Hays State, Washburn, Missouri Western/UMKC and any of the Nebraska schools like Wayne State/Chadron State/Kearney.

Northern Colorado is possible but adding it would endanger the Big Sky. They don't have money the way it is and lack real donors.

The league isnt cosmopolitan enough for UMKC's tastes.

The DII schools can't transition in time and don't have enough fans or money.

Idaho's President will be credited with this idea, so the Vandal posse will be called off.
(This post was last modified: 05-06-2017 11:12 PM by NoDak.)
05-06-2017 11:09 PM
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templefootballfan Offline
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
i would think Sac St, No Ariz & Oral Roberts would be wary of travell up there with brutall weather
05-06-2017 11:11 PM
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NoDak Offline
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-06-2017 11:11 PM)templefootballfan Wrote:  i would think Sac St, No Ariz & Oral Roberts would be wary of travell up there with brutall weather

They have all made that clear so they can fend for themselves.

But it's just not travel there, which is long and expensive, but it's not what bigger and commuter schools aspire too. NAU and Sac St would rather pay Bakersfield and Cal Baptist than travel to the far north lightly populated areas.

Our fans are Nebraska-esque, just not so many. Its why we stayed in DII because no conference would give us a look. We used to be in a DII conference with UNI, but they abandoned us for W Ill and E Ill.
(This post was last modified: 05-06-2017 11:30 PM by NoDak.)
05-06-2017 11:14 PM
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chargeradio Offline
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
I could see Montana, Montana State, and Idaho moving if the Big Sky replaces North Dakota with a school that has a vastly different institutional profile. I don't know who would be a reasonable candidate to go to the Big Sky, but if that candidate is more like Southern Utah than Montana, then the Big Sky might be an eight-team league instead of a twelve-team league.

The other possibility I see is that if the Summit loses its three schools east of the Mississippi, then it really has no choice but to rebuild itself as a conference that sponsors football. Since I doubt any MVC schools would move themselves to the Summit League, the Big Sky and Southland are the only logical targets. Montana, Montana State, and Idaho would be easier to pick off, and would get the Summit to a 7/10 (no football at Denver, Omaha, or Oral Roberts). If Oral Roberts leaves then the Summit can add another Big Sky school like Northern Colorado or Eastern Washington.

If the Summit has to go south, it needs to land Central Arkansas, who at would have Oral Roberts nearby. I'm not sure who in Texas would jump, but landing two Texas schools would be crucial as to whether the expansion succeeds or fails. It would also make it easier for the Summit to expand to 12 by picking up a Louisiana school and UMKC, who would have several nearby rivals:

North Dakota/North Dakota State
South Dakota/South Dakota State
Omaha/Denver
Oral Roberts/Kansas City
Sam Houston State/Stephen F. Austin
Central Arkansas/Northwestern State
05-06-2017 11:18 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
The Summit always has been a northern league. I know they reached out to Oral Roberts, Southern Utah and Centenary over the years but it has always primarily been a Midwestern C-league. A better question is whether or not it'll be more of a western league.
05-06-2017 11:30 PM
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NoDak Offline
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-06-2017 11:18 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  I could see Montana, Montana State, and Idaho moving if the Big Sky replaces North Dakota with a school that has a vastly different institutional profile. I don't know who would be a reasonable candidate to go to the Big Sky, but if that candidate is more like Southern Utah than Montana, then the Big Sky might be an eight-team league instead of a twelve-team league.

The other possibility I see is that if the Summit loses its three schools east of the Mississippi, then it really has no choice but to rebuild itself as a conference that sponsors football. Since I doubt any MVC schools would move themselves to the Summit League, the Big Sky and Southland are the only logical targets. Montana, Montana State, and Idaho would be easier to pick off, and would get the Summit to a 7/10 (no football at Denver, Omaha, or Oral Roberts). If Oral Roberts leaves then the Summit can add another Big Sky school like Northern Colorado or Eastern Washington.

If the Summit has to go south, it needs to land Central Arkansas, who at would have Oral Roberts nearby. I'm not sure who in Texas would jump, but landing two Texas schools would be crucial as to whether the expansion succeeds or fails. It would also make it easier for the Summit to expand to 12 by picking up a Louisiana school and UMKC, who would have several nearby rivals:

North Dakota/North Dakota State
South Dakota/South Dakota State
Omaha/Denver
Oral Roberts/Kansas City
Sam Houston State/Stephen F. Austin
Central Arkansas/Northwestern State

That is close to the WAC FBS conference I proposed. But that was too many moving parts and the NCAA has given Liberty a waiver for FBS, which so many posters here said would never happen.

The travel partners are almost perfect:
EWU/Idaho
Mont / Mont St
UND / NDSU
USD / SDSU

Omaha and Denver is a cheap and frequent flight.

This is a home run for Presidents even if FBS is not possible, which it is.

Montana fans and I believe their Presidents and Boards are incredibly weary of commuter schools with their "big" media potential.
(This post was last modified: 05-06-2017 11:39 PM by NoDak.)
05-06-2017 11:37 PM
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NoDak Offline
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-06-2017 11:30 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  The Summit always has been a northern league. I know they reached out to Oral Roberts, Southern Utah and Centenary over the years but it has always primarily been a Midwestern C-league. A better question is whether or not it'll be more of a western league.

It used to have a more Great Lakes footprint, but gradually moved west. Only when the Summit lost Valpo and needed schools would it even look in the Dakotas. The Dakotas are in the hinterlands to anyone east of the Mississippi and south of Nebraska as you have to travel in covered wagons, or so the conventional thinking goes.

The Montanas and Idaho can relate to that travel conundrum.
(This post was last modified: 05-06-2017 11:47 PM by NoDak.)
05-06-2017 11:44 PM
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DawgNBama Offline
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
I don't think the Montanas, and definitely not EWU would move to this Summit League without Portland State. Portland State is in a big metro, and is in a city with an international airport. I believe the football team plays in the MLS Portland Timbers stadium, so it's nothing to sneeze at, IMO.
05-07-2017 01:57 AM
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DavidSt Offline
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
Minnesota State-Mankato, Minnesota-Duluth and Saint Cloud State all have been near the top of fan base for football and hockey. They could be in the middle of the pack in the FCS for attendance for football games.

Northern Colorado could fit in the Summit for football wise than they would be in the Big Sky. Colorado Mines also have the R level that is close to Montana schools. Summit could become a football league.

Idaho
Montana
Montana State
Northern Colorado/Colorado Mines
Minn. State-Mankato
Minn.-Duluth
North Dakota
North Dakota State
South Dakota
South Dakota State
Washburn (Topeka)
Central Oklahoma (OKC market)

non-football
Denver
Omaha
Oral Roberts

Pairings:
Idaho/Eastern Washington
Montana/Montana State
Denver/Northern Colorado
Omaha/Washburn
Oral Roberts/Central Oklahoma
Minn. State-Mankato/Minn-Duluth
North Dakota/North Dakota State
South Dakota/South Dakota State

16 schools. 13 football 16 basketball

I do think the fans would come out even more if they became D1 in Minnesota. They could be just as rebid as the Dakotas fanbase as well.

Big Sky could backfill with these schools.
Azusa Pacific
Humboldt State
West Texas A&M
Colorado Mesa
Central Washington
Western Oregon
And maybe Simon Fraser could get a waiver to join D1 for all sports? Would anybody like to visit British Columbia to watch a college football game? It is a nice and friendly town that could get on board for travelers to come there. I remember we could go into Canada for a day visit without a passport. Vancouver is like the same culture as the Northwest like the state of Washington. I remember a shop keeper who builds toys for kids and kiddie tables and all that. The shop keeper gave my dad a special deal on a kid's table and chairs for a very low price. It is called bartering. Too bad that we can't do that in this country
05-07-2017 04:36 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-06-2017 07:16 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Its coming IMHO. The long held dream of the NoDak schools aligning with the Montana schools is coming.

I'm really not sure that's the Montana schools' dream. (IT *would* solve their Big Sky "bad neighborhood" problem, where they're publicly perceived as being more like Northern Colorado and Northern Arizona and Southern UTah than like UC, UA, and UU. But does that persuade the decisionmakers in Montana? I dunno.)

Quote:The Summit League can be in big trouble this week when the MVC announces new school (s).

All the scuttlebutt is that the Missouri VAlley is taking Valpo from the SUmmit *or* Murray State from the OVC. If it's Murray STate, I don't think the Summit does anything. If it's Valparaiso, it's very plausible that the Summit just grabs UMKC back from the WAC.

Quote:The Horizon and maybe the OVC also in turn backfill so the Summit loses its eastern wing.

Your plan relies heavily on someone else doing you a favor (from your POV) and taking the IUPU's and Illinois directionals and Oral Roberts off your hands.

Also relies heavily on Montana and Montana State being interested, which is plausible. I don't know if its probable, but there's a logic to it.

Quote:IPFW - to the Horizon League
IUPUI - to the Horizon or OVC or even the ASUN
W Ill - to the OVC
Omaha - can stay or the Horizon or even the WAC
ORU - back to the Southland or to the WAC out of choice

Yeah, I'm not sure the schools and leagues here are going to make these moves just to get out of the way of the Great Northern Conference dream.

Quote:The whole league applies for an FBS waiver in the early 2020's.

This is a different topic. I'll just say that the Powers That Be have no interest in adding FBS conferences.
05-07-2017 07:47 AM
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-06-2017 11:18 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  I could see Montana, Montana State, and Idaho moving if the Big Sky replaces North Dakota with a school that has a vastly different institutional profile. I don't know who would be a reasonable candidate to go to the Big Sky, but if that candidate is more like Southern Utah than Montana, then the Big Sky might be an eight-team league instead of a twelve-team league.

The other possibility I see is that if the Summit loses its three schools east of the Mississippi, then it really has no choice but to rebuild itself as a conference that sponsors football. Since I doubt any MVC schools would move themselves to the Summit League, the Big Sky and Southland are the only logical targets. Montana, Montana State, and Idaho would be easier to pick off, and would get the Summit to a 7/10 (no football at Denver, Omaha, or Oral Roberts). If Oral Roberts leaves then the Summit can add another Big Sky school like Northern Colorado or Eastern Washington.

If the Summit has to go south, it needs to land Central Arkansas, who at would have Oral Roberts nearby. I'm not sure who in Texas would jump, but landing two Texas schools would be crucial as to whether the expansion succeeds or fails. It would also make it easier for the Summit to expand to 12 by picking up a Louisiana school and UMKC, who would have several nearby rivals:

North Dakota/North Dakota State
South Dakota/South Dakota State
Omaha/Denver
Oral Roberts/Kansas City
Sam Houston State/Stephen F. Austin
Central Arkansas/Northwestern State

Why do you think this league needs Texas teams to succeed? A good part of the appeal of a conference like this is that it is a "northern" conference.
05-07-2017 08:09 AM
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chargeradio Offline
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-07-2017 08:09 AM)BisonCardinal Wrote:  Why do you think this league needs Texas teams to succeed? A good part of the appeal of a conference like this is that it is a "northern" conference.
Remember if the Summit loses IUPUI, IPFW, and WIU, it will only have seven members. Four of them play FCS football (although North Dakota football will lag behind in the Big Sky for a season or two). There aren't six schools sponsoring soccer and baseball, which means the conference will need to sponsor football to meet Division I requirements. Central Arkansas is the obvious choice from the Southland since it is the northernmost school in that conference. UCA needs a presence in Texas for recruiting, so the Summit needs at least two Texas schools to guarantee them a conference footballl game in Texas each year, as well as two conference basketball games. The Summit also needs to get to 7 FCS schools since North Dakota isn't immediately available in football, so that means 3 additions. Those three could all theoretically be in Louisiana, but that won't provide the stability found by adding schools in Texas.
05-07-2017 09:18 AM
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
Thanks, chargeradio. Just a couple points/questions.

On the minimum baseball team requirement, I am hoping/guessing that if the Summit becomes in violation of that, all the Summit needs to do is come up with a "plan" to come into compliance, like UND or USD restarting their programs, etc. Kind of like all the colleges that needed to come up with a "plan" to get to the 15,000 attendance FBS requirement. NCAA agrees to the plan, that could take several years to implement, so as look like they are working with the little guy.

Not sure, why every one thinks that WIU will bolt to OVC if Murray State leaves. As far as I know, football still is thee sport at WIU. Would make about as much sense as an SEC team bolting to the MAC to have a better chance at being national champion. I realize WIU has financial issues, but it can't be that much cheaper to be in the OVC as the Summit/MVFC.

Other than needing Fort Wayne for baseball, losing both Indiana schools would definitely consolidate the Summit footprint and that would not be a bad thing, in my opinion.

Don't think it would take much arm twisting to get UMKC into the Summit.
(This post was last modified: 05-07-2017 10:27 AM by BisonCardinal.)
05-07-2017 10:26 AM
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RE: Will The Summit League be reformed as a Northern League??
(05-06-2017 11:09 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Northern Colorado is possible but adding it would endanger the Big Sky.

But losing EWU, Idaho, and Montana's won't? 01-wingedeagle

(05-06-2017 11:09 PM)NoDak Wrote:  The league isnt cosmopolitan enough for UMKC's tastes.

Made up out of thin air. As you do.


(05-07-2017 07:47 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  All the scuttlebutt is that the Missouri VAlley is taking Valpo from the SUmmit *or* Murray State from the OVC. If it's Murray STate, I don't think the Summit does anything. If it's Valparaiso, it's very plausible that the Summit just grabs UMKC back from the WAC.

FYI - Valpo is in the Horizon League, not the Summit League. 03-idea
05-07-2017 11:01 AM
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