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Bigger gap: Elite P5 to Elite G5 or Elite G5 to Elite FCS?
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jacksfan29 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Bigger gap: Elite P5 to Elite G5 or Elite G5 to Elite FCS?
(04-27-2017 08:01 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  
(04-27-2017 07:23 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(04-27-2017 06:51 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(04-27-2017 06:16 PM)Shox Wrote:  If we are talking about that list exact list, and assuming it's early in the year so injuries aren't a huge factor against the FCS lack of depth, I would guess the gap is bigger between P5-G5. It wouldn't be unrealistic to think that the P5 would go 9-1 or 10-0. The same can't be said for the top FCS vs top G5. At a minimum those FCS schools would go 3-7, but could win 4-5 of them. Lastly, the top FCS vs the top P5 would obviously likely be 10-0, but depending on match ups, I wouldn't count out NDSU, JMU, or EWU to spring the upset.

You honestly think the FCS could win 4-5 of them? Really?

Let's look at how those 10 FCS schools ACTUALLY performed against FBS:
James Madison - lost to UNC 56-28
Youngstown - lost to West Virginia 38-21
North Dakota - lost to Bowling Green 27-26
EWU - beat Washington State 45-42
South Dakota State - lost to TCU 59-41
Richmond - beat Virginia 37-20
Wofford - lost to Ole Miss 38-13
Jacksonville State - lost to LSU 34-13

That's 2-6 against a much worse schedule than the top-10 G5 schools.

One of the wins was against a 2-10 Virginia team, which hardly counts. And North Dakota lost to Bowling Green for crying out loud. Bowling Green was 4-8 including a 74-point loss to Memphis.


Youngstown State made it a game against West Virginia.
North Dakota lost by 1.
South Dakota State was in the upset alert ticker on ESPN until the fourth.
LSU was no Ole Miss or Auburn that Jacksonville could play.
James Madison could actually compete in the ACC if they got invited.
Youngstown State could beat Pittsburgh.

Some of these top FCS schools could fit in the middle of the pack of any P5 conferences anyday.

Umm no...the toll of playing 11 out of 12 games versus P5/G5 teams would decimate their lineups.

P5, depending on the school; G5, no. The top 5 FCS schools would be in a dog fight to win the MAC every year. Same with the SBC and CUSA. The MWC and AAC, the top 5 would finish mid-pack without question.

Appalachian State and GSU stepped into the SBC and were immediately top teams. Seriously? Neither were in the top 5 FCS their last few years before moving up. Sorry, not impressed with most G5 conferences or schools who aren't in the AAC or MWC.
04-28-2017 10:48 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Bigger gap: Elite P5 to Elite G5 or Elite G5 to Elite FCS?
(04-28-2017 09:12 AM)PeteTheChop Wrote:  That's not actually the case.

FBS teams are allowed 85 full scholarships — one per player

FCS teams have 63 scholarships, but those can be split among up to 85 players.

So we aren't talking about a roster filled with walk-ons (at least among the fully funded FCS programs).

Also worth noting is that 63 and 85 are maximums. In other words, for both FCS and FBS, the number of players on the roster receiving a scholarship of some amount can't exceed 85. And for FCS, when you add up the amounts of the scholarships being received, that sum can't exceed the equivalent of 63 full scholarships worth of money. In FBS, every player who receives any amount of scholarship counts as a full scholarship. But also note, that does not require FBS teams to only award full scholarships. Indeed, there is a minimum number for FBS, which is less than 85 (though guessing all FBS schools are in the 80's).
04-28-2017 01:37 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Bigger gap: Elite P5 to Elite G5 or Elite G5 to Elite FCS?
(04-28-2017 10:43 AM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  
(04-27-2017 06:51 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(04-27-2017 06:16 PM)Shox Wrote:  If we are talking about that list exact list, and assuming it's early in the year so injuries aren't a huge factor against the FCS lack of depth, I would guess the gap is bigger between P5-G5. It wouldn't be unrealistic to think that the P5 would go 9-1 or 10-0. The same can't be said for the top FCS vs top G5. At a minimum those FCS schools would go 3-7, but could win 4-5 of them. Lastly, the top FCS vs the top P5 would obviously likely be 10-0, but depending on match ups, I wouldn't count out NDSU, JMU, or EWU to spring the upset.

You honestly think the FCS could win 4-5 of them? Really?

Let's look at how those 10 FCS schools ACTUALLY performed against FBS:
James Madison - lost to UNC 56-28
Youngstown - lost to West Virginia 38-21
North Dakota - lost to Bowling Green 27-26
EWU - beat Washington State 45-42
South Dakota State - lost to TCU 59-41
Richmond - beat Virginia 37-20
Wofford - lost to Ole Miss 38-13
Jacksonville State - lost to LSU 34-13

That's 2-6 against a much worse schedule than the top-10 G5 schools.

One of the wins was against a 2-10 Virginia team, which hardly counts. And North Dakota lost to Bowling Green for crying out loud. Bowling Green was 4-8 including a 74-point loss to Memphis.

You do realize the OP listed NORTH DAKOTA STATE, not NORTH DAKOTA? Big difference. NDSU took down Iowa last year and haven't lost to a P5 or G5 opponent in years. I'll take 3 wins in the matchups listed for the top G5. JMU, NDSU and SDSU with EWU as a possible 4th.

The gap between the top P5 and G5 is huge with a few exceptions Cincinnati, Houston, Boise, schools that really aren't G5.
The gap between the top G5 outside of those few listed and the very top of FCS is not very big. Ask yourself why the G5 stopped scheduling NDSU. Take a look at G5 games NDSU have played. Ask yourself why G5s won't schedule SDSU. We have been trying for years to get games with the MAC or MWC and we finally got CSU to bite in 2020. Last time NDSU went into Ft Collins it was a blowout, by NDSU. SDSU would beat Air Force by two or three scores last season. JMU were fast, physical and deep. Much stronger then any G5 I watched outside of the three listed above. You may want to re-think G5. Most schools are no overly impressive and most aren't very deep.

My bad on North Dakota vs North Dakota State.

I think the part in bold exactly the point of this exercise. I think most of us on this board agree that in any given year:
1) Top G5 teams are better than bottom P5s
2) Top FCS teams are better than bottom G5s

But the OP wanted to compare the top 10 of each group. Those "few exceptions that aren't really G5" ARE the elite G5s. If you pretend they don't exist, then you're ignoring the original question.
04-28-2017 01:45 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Bigger gap: Elite P5 to Elite G5 or Elite G5 to Elite FCS?
There is about a 100 million dollar revenue gap between the top earner in the FBS and those below about the 40th position in earnings in the FBS. That's the largest gap and it is contained within what is called the P5. The gap between #1 and #64 is over 120 million. And while income doesn't guarantee competitiveness in the least, that much of disparity is a monumental obstacle to those paid that much less.

So to answer the OP's query the largest gap is not between the P5 and the G5 given the top of the G5 and the bottom 1/4 of the P5 are not that far apart. And the top of the G5 is only about 35 million ahead of the FCS mid range schools. The largest gap is contained within the present P5. But technically since you said elite there is a major gap of over 110 million between the G5's # 1 UConn and the P5's #1 Texas.
(This post was last modified: 04-28-2017 01:54 PM by JRsec.)
04-28-2017 01:50 PM
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Post: #25
RE: Bigger gap: Elite P5 to Elite G5 or Elite G5 to Elite FCS?
Income doesn't matter -- spending matters.

Ask the U of Texas if they'd rather be the #1 earner, or have filled its cases with national trophies.


End of the day, athletics dollars is a small sliver of the overall operating budget of a major university. I bet even the CFO says "well that's great ... but I'd rather win!"
04-28-2017 01:56 PM
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Post: #26
RE: Bigger gap: Elite P5 to Elite G5 or Elite G5 to Elite FCS?
(04-28-2017 01:45 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  My bad on North Dakota vs North Dakota State.

You weren't the first, and won't be the last.

The NCAA sent the national title in FCS football to the wrong school.
04-28-2017 01:57 PM
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Post: #27
RE: Bigger gap: Elite P5 to Elite G5 or Elite G5 to Elite FCS?
(04-28-2017 01:50 PM)JRsec Wrote:  There is about a 100 million dollar revenue gap between the top earner in the FBS and those below about the 40th position in earnings in the FBS. That's the largest gap and it is contained within what is called the P5. The gap between #1 and #64 is over 120 million. And while income doesn't guarantee competitiveness in the least, that much of disparity is a monumental obstacle to those paid that much less.

So to answer the OP's query the largest gap is not between the P5 and the G5 given the top of the G5 and the bottom 1/4 of the P5 are not that far apart. And the top of the G5 is only about 35 million ahead of the FCS mid range schools. The largest gap is contained within the present P5. But technically since you said elite there is a major gap of over 110 million between the G5's # 1 UConn and the P5's #1 Texas.

Two things:
First, differences in revenue do not equal difference in spending. Top P5 programs use football to heavily subsidize the rest of the athletic department (and for about 10 schools, the rest of the university). But top G5 programs typically heavily subsidize their athletic departments.

Second, it's not all about the raw dollar amount. Percentages matter. Cincinnati pays 2 of our assistant coaches more than any FCS head coach (except Turner Gil Liberty). No P5 school can claim that pay disparity with G5 schools - nearly every AAC school pays their head coach more than the highest paid assistant coach in the country (Texas A&M's John Chavis at $1.54 million)

And FCS schools pay their assistants a pittance - unless you're a coordinator it's less than the amount an average 22 year old college graduate makes in his first job. So summing up their salaries doesn't really reflect the quality of people they're hiring.
04-28-2017 05:38 PM
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Post: #28
RE: Bigger gap: Elite P5 to Elite G5 or Elite G5 to Elite FCS?
Maybe there should be a force realignment so that all schools earn the same amount of money at the D1 levels? There are schools in the G5 and FCS who deserves to be in the P5 while there are schools inside the P5 who do not belong there in FBS.

Kansas, Duke, Washington State and Wake Forest do not deserve to be in the P5 at all. Same for Iowa State.
04-28-2017 06:42 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Bigger gap: Elite P5 to Elite G5 or Elite G5 to Elite FCS?
(04-28-2017 05:38 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 01:50 PM)JRsec Wrote:  There is about a 100 million dollar revenue gap between the top earner in the FBS and those below about the 40th position in earnings in the FBS. That's the largest gap and it is contained within what is called the P5. The gap between #1 and #64 is over 120 million. And while income doesn't guarantee competitiveness in the least, that much of disparity is a monumental obstacle to those paid that much less.

So to answer the OP's query the largest gap is not between the P5 and the G5 given the top of the G5 and the bottom 1/4 of the P5 are not that far apart. And the top of the G5 is only about 35 million ahead of the FCS mid range schools. The largest gap is contained within the present P5. But technically since you said elite there is a major gap of over 110 million between the G5's # 1 UConn and the P5's #1 Texas.


Two things:
First, differences in revenue do not equal difference in spending. Top P5 programs use football to heavily subsidize the rest of the athletic department (and for about 10 schools, the rest of the university). But top G5 programs typically heavily subsidize their athletic departments.

Second, it's not all about the raw dollar amount. Percentages matter. Cincinnati pays 2 of our assistant coaches more than any FCS head coach (except Turner Gil Liberty). No P5 school can claim that pay disparity with G5 schools - nearly every AAC school pays their head coach more than the highest paid assistant coach in the country (Texas A&M's John Chavis at $1.54 million)

And FCS schools pay their assistants a pittance - unless you're a coordinator it's less than the amount an average 22 year old college graduate makes in his first job. So summing up their salaries doesn't really reflect the quality of people they're hiring.

There are all kinds of gaps. Salaries, Facilities, Revenue, and Coaching Quality are just some of the more apparent. I referred to Revenue because it still can be traced to that if it is spent correctly.
04-28-2017 06:59 PM
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RE: Bigger gap: Elite P5 to Elite G5 or Elite G5 to Elite FCS?
(04-28-2017 06:42 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Maybe there should be a force realignment so that all schools earn the same amount of money at the D1 levels? There are schools in the G5 and FCS who deserves to be in the P5 while there are schools inside the P5 who do not belong there in FBS.

Kansas, Duke, Washington State and Wake Forest do not deserve to be in the P5 at all. Same for Iowa State.

Wake Forest maybe. Duke if you go back in time before their basketball program became what it is. Kansas is a primary state flagship with one of the top basketball programs of all time. Washington State is a secondary one in an area of the country where there aren't many schools.
04-28-2017 07:23 PM
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Post: #31
RE: Bigger gap: Elite P5 to Elite G5 or Elite G5 to Elite FCS?
(04-28-2017 06:59 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 05:38 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 01:50 PM)JRsec Wrote:  There is about a 100 million dollar revenue gap between the top earner in the FBS and those below about the 40th position in earnings in the FBS. That's the largest gap and it is contained within what is called the P5. The gap between #1 and #64 is over 120 million. And while income doesn't guarantee competitiveness in the least, that much of disparity is a monumental obstacle to those paid that much less.

So to answer the OP's query the largest gap is not between the P5 and the G5 given the top of the G5 and the bottom 1/4 of the P5 are not that far apart. And the top of the G5 is only about 35 million ahead of the FCS mid range schools. The largest gap is contained within the present P5. But technically since you said elite there is a major gap of over 110 million between the G5's # 1 UConn and the P5's #1 Texas.


Two things:
First, differences in revenue do not equal difference in spending. Top P5 programs use football to heavily subsidize the rest of the athletic department (and for about 10 schools, the rest of the university). But top G5 programs typically heavily subsidize their athletic departments.

Second, it's not all about the raw dollar amount. Percentages matter. Cincinnati pays 2 of our assistant coaches more than any FCS head coach (except Turner Gil Liberty). No P5 school can claim that pay disparity with G5 schools - nearly every AAC school pays their head coach more than the highest paid assistant coach in the country (Texas A&M's John Chavis at $1.54 million)

And FCS schools pay their assistants a pittance - unless you're a coordinator it's less than the amount an average 22 year old college graduate makes in his first job. So summing up their salaries doesn't really reflect the quality of people they're hiring.

There are all kinds of gaps. Salaries, Facilities, Revenue, and Coaching Quality are just some of the more apparent. I referred to Revenue because it still can be traced to that if it is spent correctly.

But that's the point - P5 football revenue isn't spent on football. So it can't possibly be "spent correctly."

Salary? Any American Conference school can tell any FCS head coach (other than Turner Gil) that they'll hire him as a coordinator and pay him more than he's currently making. Not a single P5 school can say that to any American Conference school.

Coaching Quality? My high school wide receivers coach made more as an art teacher than top FCS schools pay their assistants, so how good can the FCS coaches be? Cincinnati might not have Alabama-level talent, but several of our position coaches have P5 head coaching experience or NFL coaching experience.

Facilities? There's a big difference in fan facilities, but there's little difference in player facilities between Ohio State/Michigan and Cincinnati/Boise. And that's what we're really talking about.
(This post was last modified: 04-28-2017 07:35 PM by Captain Bearcat.)
04-28-2017 07:33 PM
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JHG722 Offline
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RE: Bigger gap: Elite P5 to Elite G5 or Elite G5 to Elite FCS?
(04-27-2017 03:22 PM)The Sicatoka Wrote:  Jax might be favored over Temple.

GTFOH
04-28-2017 07:37 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Bigger gap: Elite P5 to Elite G5 or Elite G5 to Elite FCS?
(04-28-2017 07:33 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 06:59 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 05:38 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(04-28-2017 01:50 PM)JRsec Wrote:  There is about a 100 million dollar revenue gap between the top earner in the FBS and those below about the 40th position in earnings in the FBS. That's the largest gap and it is contained within what is called the P5. The gap between #1 and #64 is over 120 million. And while income doesn't guarantee competitiveness in the least, that much of disparity is a monumental obstacle to those paid that much less.

So to answer the OP's query the largest gap is not between the P5 and the G5 given the top of the G5 and the bottom 1/4 of the P5 are not that far apart. And the top of the G5 is only about 35 million ahead of the FCS mid range schools. The largest gap is contained within the present P5. But technically since you said elite there is a major gap of over 110 million between the G5's # 1 UConn and the P5's #1 Texas.


Two things:
First, differences in revenue do not equal difference in spending. Top P5 programs use football to heavily subsidize the rest of the athletic department (and for about 10 schools, the rest of the university). But top G5 programs typically heavily subsidize their athletic departments.

Second, it's not all about the raw dollar amount. Percentages matter. Cincinnati pays 2 of our assistant coaches more than any FCS head coach (except Turner Gil Liberty). No P5 school can claim that pay disparity with G5 schools - nearly every AAC school pays their head coach more than the highest paid assistant coach in the country (Texas A&M's John Chavis at $1.54 million)

And FCS schools pay their assistants a pittance - unless you're a coordinator it's less than the amount an average 22 year old college graduate makes in his first job. So summing up their salaries doesn't really reflect the quality of people they're hiring.

There are all kinds of gaps. Salaries, Facilities, Revenue, and Coaching Quality are just some of the more apparent. I referred to Revenue because it still can be traced to that if it is spent correctly.

But that's the point - P5 football revenue isn't spent on football. So it can't possibly be "spent correctly."

Salary? Any American Conference school can tell any FCS head coach (other than Turner Gil) that they'll hire him as a coordinator and pay him more than he's currently making. Not a single P5 school can say that to any American Conference school.

Coaching Quality? My high school wide receivers coach made more as an art teacher than top FCS schools pay their assistants, so how good can the FCS coaches be? Cincinnati might not have Alabama-level talent, but several of our position coaches have P5 head coaching experience or NFL coaching experience.

Facilities? There's a big difference in fan facilities, but there's little difference in player facilities between Ohio State/Michigan and Cincinnati/Boise. And that's what we're really talking about.

There are so many work arounds on coaches salaries at a big P5 school that they could easily double any salary amount in advertising revenue. "Young Lady do you really want to spend that much money on a dress that will be out of style in a few weeks." Then there are speaking engagements and other such things that pay a whole lot more to make up any difference. Ditto for Urban and Harbaugh. And those engagements are there for Coordinators as well. And the perks for other assistants are in the nature of resume' building for bigger moves.

P5 football revenue isn't all spent on football, but after Title 9 is taken care of and non revenue sports funded, there's money left over that is. Auburn's Gross Revenue last year was 140 million and the SEC MEAN in Gross Revenue was over 121 million. The gap is real enough.
04-28-2017 07:58 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Bigger gap: Elite P5 to Elite G5 or Elite G5 to Elite FCS?
(04-27-2017 02:44 PM)prisonmike Wrote:  I know this would never happen but it would be really cool if this is how they did non-conference scheduling. #1 P5 plays #1 G5 and #1 FCS. Would give a matchup that would otherwise go largely unnoticed otherwise a little more of a story line.

The last I remember of this happening was when #1 P5 Alabama played #1 FCS Georgia Southern a couple of years ago. 10 point game until about 3 mins left in the 4th.
05-01-2017 01:56 PM
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RE: Bigger gap: Elite P5 to Elite G5 or Elite G5 to Elite FCS?
(04-28-2017 10:48 AM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  
(04-27-2017 08:01 PM)TexanMark Wrote:  
(04-27-2017 07:23 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(04-27-2017 06:51 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(04-27-2017 06:16 PM)Shox Wrote:  If we are talking about that list exact list, and assuming it's early in the year so injuries aren't a huge factor against the FCS lack of depth, I would guess the gap is bigger between P5-G5. It wouldn't be unrealistic to think that the P5 would go 9-1 or 10-0. The same can't be said for the top FCS vs top G5. At a minimum those FCS schools would go 3-7, but could win 4-5 of them. Lastly, the top FCS vs the top P5 would obviously likely be 10-0, but depending on match ups, I wouldn't count out NDSU, JMU, or EWU to spring the upset.

You honestly think the FCS could win 4-5 of them? Really?

Let's look at how those 10 FCS schools ACTUALLY performed against FBS:
James Madison - lost to UNC 56-28
Youngstown - lost to West Virginia 38-21
North Dakota - lost to Bowling Green 27-26
EWU - beat Washington State 45-42
South Dakota State - lost to TCU 59-41
Richmond - beat Virginia 37-20
Wofford - lost to Ole Miss 38-13
Jacksonville State - lost to LSU 34-13

That's 2-6 against a much worse schedule than the top-10 G5 schools.

One of the wins was against a 2-10 Virginia team, which hardly counts. And North Dakota lost to Bowling Green for crying out loud. Bowling Green was 4-8 including a 74-point loss to Memphis.


Youngstown State made it a game against West Virginia.
North Dakota lost by 1.
South Dakota State was in the upset alert ticker on ESPN until the fourth.
LSU was no Ole Miss or Auburn that Jacksonville could play.
James Madison could actually compete in the ACC if they got invited.
Youngstown State could beat Pittsburgh.

Some of these top FCS schools could fit in the middle of the pack of any P5 conferences anyday.

Umm no...the toll of playing 11 out of 12 games versus P5/G5 teams would decimate their lineups.

P5, depending on the school; G5, no. The top 5 FCS schools would be in a dog fight to win the MAC every year. Same with the SBC and CUSA. The MWC and AAC, the top 5 would finish mid-pack without question.

Appalachian State and GSU stepped into the SBC and were immediately top teams. Seriously? Neither were in the top 5 FCS their last few years before moving up. Sorry, not impressed with most G5 conferences or schools who aren't in the AAC or MWC.

You sure about that? GaSouthern from 2010-2012 went to the FCS semifinals. 2013 was a transition year and so we couldn't participate in any post season festivities. That whole season looked like experimenting with different looks (until the Florida game).
05-01-2017 02:07 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #36
RE: Bigger gap: Elite P5 to Elite G5 or Elite G5 to Elite FCS?
Here is some of the concepts that I am seeing. For football, several G5 schools (including Boise State) are making more in ticket sales for football more than several P5 schools. It could be the size of the stadiums, or in some cases, have more fans in the stadium than several ACC schools like Miami Florida. Yes, Miami have so many empty seats, it is not even funny how Miami went from a super P5 team that sells tickets to joining the ACC and losing fanbase and all that. Could it be that fans rather have Miami play all of their Big East rivals for all sports? Could the ACC become a Super Conference and invite all of the old Big East teams like St. John's, Georgetown, UConn, Villanova, Providence, Seton Hall, Temple and West Virginia? That would be 23. Add Cincinnati and you could have a 24 team Super Conference. 18/24 team 18 football and 24 basketball schools. AAC, Big East and Big 12 would be hit hard.Fox Sports would lose out big time to ESPN's ACC.
05-05-2017 09:56 PM
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RE: Bigger gap: Elite P5 to Elite G5 or Elite G5 to Elite FCS?
(05-05-2017 09:56 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Here is some of the concepts that I am seeing. For football, several G5 schools (including Boise State) are making more in ticket sales for football more than several P5 schools. It could be the size of the stadiums, or in some cases, have more fans in the stadium than several ACC schools like Miami Florida. Yes, Miami have so many empty seats, it is not even funny how Miami went from a super P5 team that sells tickets to joining the ACC and losing fanbase and all that. Could it be that fans rather have Miami play all of their Big East rivals for all sports? Could the ACC become a Super Conference and invite all of the old Big East teams like St. John's, Georgetown, UConn, Villanova, Providence, Seton Hall, Temple and West Virginia? That would be 23. Add Cincinnati and you could have a 24 team Super Conference. 18/24 team 18 football and 24 basketball schools. AAC, Big East and Big 12 would be hit hard.Fox Sports would lose out big time to ESPN's ACC.

Do you ever listen to yourself talk?
05-05-2017 10:34 PM
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