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JMU and cost of attendence
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billymac Offline
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Post: #21
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
That's just simply not true. It's just the traditional old school W&M response to these type problems.

Actually, that is where the fight is at UR. The Admissions Office hasn't been giving in to the coaches (the Grad transfer that ended up -playing well- at Xavier this season, for example, after being denied at UR).
Their big donors apparently want to work towards a system that is closer to that of some of the eastern elite academic schools (Vandy, UVA, Wake, Northwestern, etc) that seem to be able to get in solid student-athletes and still remain elite. (Something W&M should also keep in mind.) Duke and UVA's academic ranking have not gone down since they've gotten better in b-ball and football (well, UVA's a bad example there (FB), but... 03-wink... the idea is the same).

In today's world, it has been proven that, with a little creative thinking, you can have high academics and competitive sports. Richmond's administration will have to rethink it's hard line (as should W&M) on numbers, but there is a huge difference between "lowering the school's standards" and changing the question to "can this person handle the job of being a student and an athlete at this school", SAT numbers be damned.

I really thought people on this board were more of the "let's find a way" type, but I, apparently, could be wrong. There's an awful lot of "never change W&M" sentiment on here.

In my opinion, the old way of saying you can't do both, it's impossible at an elite school, is just a handy excuse for those that probably want a Washington & Lee (D-III) type experience at W&M. It's been proven, repeatedly, that it can work, with some effort.

I'm in the "let's explore change" group. Hopefully, the recent For the Bold initiative will open up those same type discussions at W&M, that this power play did at Richmond. If not, maybe we need to go get us a couple of those Donors.
05-11-2017 04:15 PM
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LeadBolt Offline
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Post: #22
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
(05-11-2017 03:54 PM)TribePride91 Wrote:  
(05-11-2017 03:42 PM)BigTribe3 Wrote:  The key to all this is that Richmond will lower their academic standards so they can get any player in there regardless of his academic record.

Richmond has academic standards???

Don't you be talking about my safety school like that. 05-stirthepot
05-11-2017 06:20 PM
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Got Ribe Offline
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Post: #23
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
(05-11-2017 04:15 PM)billymac Wrote:  That's just simply not true. It's just the traditional old school W&M response to these type problems.

Actually, that is where the fight is at UR. The Admissions Office hasn't been giving in to the coaches (the Grad transfer that ended up -playing well- at Xavier this season, for example, after being denied at UR).
Their big donors apparently want to work towards a system that is closer to that of some of the eastern elite academic schools (Vandy, UVA, Wake, Northwestern, etc) that seem to be able to get in solid student-athletes and still remain elite. (Something W&M should also keep in mind.) Duke and UVA's academic ranking have not gone down since they've gotten better in b-ball and football (well, UVA's a bad example there (FB), but... 03-wink... the idea is the same).

In today's world, it has been proven that, with a little creative thinking, you can have high academics and competitive sports. Richmond's administration will have to rethink it's hard line (as should W&M) on numbers, but there is a huge difference between "lowering the school's standards" and changing the question to "can this person handle the job of being a student and an athlete at this school", SAT numbers be damned.

I really thought people on this board were more of the "let's find a way" type, but I, apparently, could be wrong. There's an awful lot of "never change W&M" sentiment on here.

In my opinion, the old way of saying you can't do both, it's impossible at an elite school, is just a handy excuse for those that probably want a Washington & Lee (D-III) type experience at W&M. It's been proven, repeatedly, that it can work, with some effort.

I'm in the "let's explore change" group. Hopefully, the recent For the Bold initiative will open up those same type discussions at W&M, that this power play did at Richmond. If not, maybe we need to go get us a couple of those Donors.

Give 'em hell, billymac, I'm right there with you.
05-11-2017 08:32 PM
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billymac Offline
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Post: #24
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
Thanks, GR. I'm afraid I do have a couple hot buttons....
05-11-2017 08:44 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #25
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
Well, I hate to disagree with Billy Mac, but I'm in the Richmond has no academic standards camp. Never did ... don't now. Safety school hiding behind some beautiful scenery. :-)

Other than that, I agree with Billy Mac. Just takes one basketball player per year to drastically change things. If the players can do the work, provide them all the academic support in the world. It's a win for the players, the team, and the school.

Georgetown, Duke, and Villanova (all fine schools) can do it, but W&M can't ... never understood it.
05-11-2017 09:01 PM
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tribeintexas Offline
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Post: #26
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
Georgetown, Villanova and maybe Duke can do it because they admit basketball players and not student athletes. A lot of former Georgetown, Villanova and maybe Duke players are proof of this.
05-11-2017 09:45 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #27
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
(05-11-2017 04:15 PM)billymac Wrote:  That's just simply not true. It's just the traditional old school W&M response to these type problems.

Actually, that is where the fight is at UR. The Admissions Office hasn't been giving in to the coaches (the Grad transfer that ended up -playing well- at Xavier this season, for example, after being denied at UR).
Their big donors apparently want to work towards a system that is closer to that of some of the eastern elite academic schools (Vandy, UVA, Wake, Northwestern, etc) that seem to be able to get in solid student-athletes and still remain elite. (Something W&M should also keep in mind.) Duke and UVA's academic ranking have not gone down since they've gotten better in b-ball and football (well, UVA's a bad example there (FB), but... 03-wink... the idea is the same).

In today's world, it has been proven that, with a little creative thinking, you can have high academics and competitive sports. Richmond's administration will have to rethink it's hard line (as should W&M) on numbers, but there is a huge difference between "lowering the school's standards" and changing the question to "can this person handle the job of being a student and an athlete at this school", SAT numbers be damned.

I really thought people on this board were more of the "let's find a way" type, but I, apparently, could be wrong. There's an awful lot of "never change W&M" sentiment on here.

In my opinion, the old way of saying you can't do both, it's impossible at an elite school, is just a handy excuse for those that probably want a Washington & Lee (D-III) type experience at W&M. It's been proven, repeatedly, that it can work, with some effort.

I'm in the "let's explore change" group. Hopefully, the recent For the Bold initiative will open up those same type discussions at W&M, that this power play did at Richmond. If not, maybe we need to go get us a couple of those Donors.
Possibly the post of the year but it's only May so don't plan your acceptance speech just yet. The first paragraph really hits home with me...the elitist attitude some cling to as they insist our academic standards cripple our athletics programs. It's just not the case but it's a mighty convenient excuse for our shortcomings on the court and field.

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05-11-2017 09:50 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #28
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
(05-11-2017 09:45 PM)tribeintexas Wrote:  Georgetown, Villanova and maybe Duke can do it because they admit basketball players and not student athletes. A lot of former Georgetown, Villanova and maybe Duke players are proof of this.
Okay, for fun, let's say you're correct about these 3 schools: A high school kid spends more time on the court than the classroom. Turns out, he's 6'6 and can score at will but his grades need help. W&M takes a shot and admits him because he's a baller. He struggles in the classroom at W&M, receives a lot of support, does the best he can, and graduates in 5 years with a C average. Tell me, in what way is that a bad thing? Believe me--because I'm one of them--there are many kids who struggled in HS, somehow gained admission to W&M, struggled at W&M and graduated with something less than a 4.0 average. I can also tell you this, I never forgot that W&M took a chance on me and I will love our school forever for that very reason. By the way, I turned out okay.

In my view, it's admirable to give an underperforming person an opportunity to succeed. Every student has special talents and brings value to our school...just maybe not talents that appeal to some of you.

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05-11-2017 10:10 PM
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Tribe32 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
Tribal,
that's a solid post and spot on from my experience. I went to our school in the early/mid 80s and played baseball and was in a fraternity. I was surrounded by football, baseball, basketball, soccer, lacrosse players and wrestlers. Most of the scholarship players got in because of sports and not on their own accord. There were exceptions of course, but I can say with certainty that many were not high academic achievers coming out of high school. We also didn't have all of the tutors, study halls and the like. Our athlete drop out rate was low and probably was similar to the overall student population (although I have nothing to back it up). We weren't like UNC by any means, but it wasn't some academic elite ivory tower either. Back then we were an attractive southern liberal arts college with a great history, great reputation, and a great academic and social experience. My dad went to the college in the early 50s and it was nothing close to the academic rigor we have today, and our sports were power houses. So things changed and now we are an academics first school with very little emphasis on athletics compared to academics. You pretty much have to look at the whole time period and not just the last ten years to understand it.

Also, Richmond has rigorous admission standards and the SATs and GPAs required are very similar to ours. Again, Richmond used to be very easy to get into, but not any more.
05-12-2017 05:32 AM
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LeadBolt Offline
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Post: #30
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
One outstanding young man from my area just chose UVA over W&M after touring both and being admitted to both because UVA offered a more life balanced experience in his opinion. Another who did the same with Harvard and W&M and chose Harvard because it had better academics in his opinion.

BillyMac is correct that the For the Bold campaign should lead to more introspection and analysis on what the future direction should be for W&M, and not just the same way of doing things. With increased resources come increased opportunities.

In my opinion we are not an Ivy League school, but a public Ivy and should take that model to heart. I'm not advocating a change in size so much as a change in culture and experience more inline with the public ivies and some of the southern academically oriented private universities.

The public ivies and the southern academically oriented universities stress more of a balance between athletics and academics than the ives and northeastern elite universities do. This is a more inclusive approach should be our guide. I still remember the welcoming speech my freshman year (1971) where the President said that the class could have been filled with all valedictorians and salutatorians, but they strove for more balance. Given that they gave me a shot, I'd like to see others like myself get a shot, not just library moles.

I'd much rather be closer to a UVA, Michigan, UNC (without the scandal), Vanderbilt, Duke or Wake Forest than I would be to a Columbia, Brown, Penn, Princeton, Georgetown, or W&L in our offerings and experience.
(This post was last modified: 05-12-2017 07:06 AM by LeadBolt.)
05-12-2017 07:01 AM
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Tribe2011 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
Agree with most of the above. I firmly believe that the sports program should serve the school and not the other way around. But letting in top players in basketball DOES serve the school as a whole best. A winning basketball program moves the needle and generates revenue and free advertising, and as long as these kids are given any support they need to succeed in life, it's a win win all around. I fail to see any benefits to rejecting top players that want to come here over academics - letting them in doesn't hurt students and it doesn't hurt WM's academics as a whole.
05-12-2017 08:54 AM
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tribetime10 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
(05-12-2017 08:54 AM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  Agree with most of the above. I firmly believe that the sports program should serve the school and not the other way around. But letting in top players in basketball DOES serve the school as a whole best. A winning basketball program moves the needle and generates revenue and free advertising, and as long as these kids are given any support they need to succeed in life, it's a win win all around. I fail to see any benefits to rejecting top players that want to come here over academics - letting them in doesn't hurt students and it doesn't hurt WM's academics as a whole.

Genuine question: Do we know of any instances where we had an all-star recruit that wanted to come to W&M and he wasn't able to get in? Or is it more of a constraint on who we recruit?
05-12-2017 09:11 AM
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tribeintexas Offline
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Post: #33
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
How about we build a multi-sports practice facility and renovate Kaplan first?
05-12-2017 10:09 AM
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Post: #34
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
(05-12-2017 09:11 AM)tribetime10 Wrote:  
(05-12-2017 08:54 AM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  Agree with most of the above. I firmly believe that the sports program should serve the school and not the other way around. But letting in top players in basketball DOES serve the school as a whole best. A winning basketball program moves the needle and generates revenue and free advertising, and as long as these kids are given any support they need to succeed in life, it's a win win all around. I fail to see any benefits to rejecting top players that want to come here over academics - letting them in doesn't hurt students and it doesn't hurt WM's academics as a whole.

Genuine question: Do we know of any instances where we had an all-star recruit that wanted to come to W&M and he wasn't able to get in? Or is it more of a constraint on who we recruit?

Not an all-star but this happened to Deron Powers right?
05-12-2017 11:10 AM
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billymac Offline
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Post: #35
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
(05-12-2017 10:09 AM)tribeintexas Wrote:  How about we build a multi-sports practice facility and renovate Kaplan first?

TinT, I don't think it's an either/or situation.

We have to decide (alumni, faculty, & administration) if a more prominent basketball program (Men's & Women's) is a help or hinderance to the overall goal of William & Mary reaching more qualified students across the country.

If the answer is Yes, then we need to work on both aspects, better facilities and looking at the process of a slightly altering the current admissions policy. The fact is, we aren't discussing going to prisons and recruiting from there. We are suggesting that if a kid's coach says "this guy may not have the SAT's, but is a hard worker and is willing to pay the price needed for a W&M education", then let's be able to have our coaches give him a serious look.

Even Harvard has come round to the belief that a competitive athletic program in basketball is worth the effort, for the rewards of reaching a section of potential students they had not been in touch with...and their academic reputation has not been affected at all (they were #1 rated in most/all lists before, they're still #1.)

This is not a deal-breaker for W&M. We are going to be considered one of the best Public Universities in the nation, either way. What it will make a difference in is are we going to try to keep up with the Jones athletically and use that to our advantage to catch the attention of potential students, or are we just going to continue as we have and remain that "Catholic Girl's School back East..." to a majority of the country.

The recent and current hunt for players should have been a definite eye-opener for us. A lot of players decided that there were places better than W&M to spend their next four years. We need to find a way to change that.
05-12-2017 11:19 AM
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nogretheogre Offline
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Post: #36
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
This is all that I can think about now...

(05-12-2017 11:19 AM)billymac Wrote:  or are we just going to continue as we have and remain that "Catholic Girl's School back East..." to a majority of the country.



05-12-2017 11:37 AM
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mrjoolius Offline
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Post: #37
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
(05-12-2017 11:19 AM)billymac Wrote:  The recent and current hunt for players should have been a definite eye-opener for us. A lot of players decided that there were places better than W&M to spend their next four years. We need to find a way to change that.

While I agree with most of your points, I believe the current 2017 recruiting drought has more to do with competing with schools that have been targeting & recruiting these kids for a long time. Unless you are an established major, it's hard to swoop in at the last minute to whoo a kid and undermine relationships built out over a year or two. I like that the coaches aren't just settling for filling the open scholarship. They seem to still be pushing for guys that they feel can contribute and push the program forward. Filling the spot with a borderline CAA level player would be more troubling.
05-12-2017 12:00 PM
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bubbadog57 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
Agree...they are looking for quality, not just lower level players a la the infamous Chris Darnell.
05-12-2017 06:20 PM
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SoCal Frank Offline
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Post: #39
JMU and cost of attendence
Wm and Mary is not going to change much of anything. Ms Hugy is evidence of that. The VA school that is changing, at warp speed, is LU. They have embraced the future. Wm and Mary looks dumbfounded.
05-13-2017 03:12 PM
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TribeNomad Online
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Post: #40
RE: JMU and cost of attendence
(05-13-2017 03:12 PM)SoCal Frank Wrote:  Wm and Mary is not going to change much of anything. Ms Hugy is evidence of that. The VA school that is changing, at warp speed, is LU. They have embraced the future. Wm and Mary looks dumbfounded.


Goes against the prevailing thought that a school founded by Falwell would be forward thinking, at least on some things.
05-13-2017 03:37 PM
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