(04-22-2017 06:49 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(04-22-2017 06:07 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  

(04-22-2017 11:13 AM)mbrindley Wrote:  

(04-21-2017 11:13 PM)RiceDad Wrote:  You know, I'm kinda getting tired of being so kind and sympathetic to all these guys leaving Rice and "doing what's right for them". I went to Rice because it was/is a great university. I don't think our former BB players valued that, so I have little reason to say much else than "don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out"!!

I think they do value that, but I don't think they value it as much as you do. Athletes have always come to Rice to have a chance to play at the highest level and get a great education. If the playing time doesn't work out, the basketball culture across the NCAA is to transfer somewhere else to get both the education and playing time. It's not just Rice. If the players were coming to Rice just for the education or if the NCAA BB culture were different, they would likely agree with you. Unfortunately, that's not the case on either front.

Until we make Rice a destination school for basketball players to play for championships and to get the best education, we should expect to see this trend continue just like every school in the country, highly academic or not, is seeing. Even Duke has this problem to some extent.

No they don't? No one who contributes at Duke transfers out. The guys who transferred out of Rice were starters it wasn't because of playing time. The two that graduated I have no problem with. But we had 4 guys transfer out because they thought their basketball prospects were better elsewhere. Stupid decisions.

I understand your POV, BUT...please tell me you're not arguing that their basketball prospects are not better elsewhere? I'd argue they are across the board, especially given the lack of fan support they get playing at Tudor.

Only Egor and Evans end up in better basketball situations. If their goal is to play professionally I still question Evans' decision to sit out a year and play in a marginally better conference. So ya, I don't think any of the 4 that didn't graduate made smart decisions. 3 won't ever play professional basketball anyway.

Things usually don't end well when you are running away from something vs. running towards something. I think we have seen this with majority of folks leaving due to Rhoades departure.

Moe, Curly or Shemp Howard?


quote='dragon2owl' pid='14281281' dateline='1492721038']

Quote:@lottnumbertwo1
Man...what an experience. These last two years have been a blessing. With the passing of my grandparents, injuries, and other personal trials that I am currently dealing with, these moments have been some of the hardest times of my life. But because of the people that God has placed in this journey with me, including my peers here at Rice and the staff/administration who works in the program, I've been supported and encouraged to continue thus far. For that I am forever grateful and I thank everyone who has been there for me. These bonds I will always cherish and bring with me as I move on to the next chapter of my life.
With that being said, I want to announce that after constant prayer and consultation with my family, I have decided to continue my academic and basketball career at THE Howard University! I thank Karlsgard, Brian Blaire, Mr. Mello, Mrs. Julie, Mike and the entire Rice athletic administration for giving me the opportunity to come here and the support they have shown throughout this process. I want to thank Coach Pera for not only lending the hand of a Head Coach to me, but also the one of a good friend and mentor. To my brothers who have decided to continue their career elsewhere and those who have chosen to stay at Rice, I pray happiness and success in all of y'all's future. Thank you for accepting me with open arms during my darkest hours. Y'all made this journey so much easier. Regardless of where we all end up, we're family for life. I love y'all boys. SFE!

[/quote]

(04-22-2017 07:47 PM)grOWLer Wrote:  

(04-22-2017 06:56 PM)ExcitedOwl18 Wrote:  

(04-22-2017 06:49 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(04-22-2017 06:07 PM)cr11owl Wrote:  

(04-22-2017 11:13 AM)mbrindley Wrote:  I think they do value that, but I don't think they value it as much as you do. Athletes have always come to Rice to have a chance to play at the highest level and get a great education. If the playing time doesn't work out, the basketball culture across the NCAA is to transfer somewhere else to get both the education and playing time. It's not just Rice. If the players were coming to Rice just for the education or if the NCAA BB culture were different, they would likely agree with you. Unfortunately, that's not the case on either front.

Until we make Rice a destination school for basketball players to play for championships and to get the best education, we should expect to see this trend continue just like every school in the country, highly academic or not, is seeing. Even Duke has this problem to some extent.

No they don't? No one who contributes at Duke transfers out. The guys who transferred out of Rice were starters it wasn't because of playing time. The two that graduated I have no problem with. But we had 4 guys transfer out because they thought their basketball prospects were better elsewhere. Stupid decisions.

I understand your POV, BUT...please tell me you're not arguing that their basketball prospects are not better elsewhere? I'd argue they are across the board, especially given the lack of fan support they get playing at Tudor.

Chad Lott's basketball prospects are better in the MEAC (2nd worst conference by RPI)?

Corey Douglas' are better at a JuCo?

Marcus Jackson's (though I understand why he left) are better with a UCSB team that went 6-22 last year?

I live in Georgia and have to put up with the "Bulldog Nation" on a daily basis. Several UGa coaches ago, they got the commitment and arrival of a 4 or 5-star running back from California and the Bulldog Nation was ecstatic. It turned out the youngster had less than desirable morals and, after a few quick and major infractions, was dismissed from the team and school. The coach said that he had learned a lesson. Since he and his staff did not have a close relationship with the high school coaches in many other states, they would try to do more recruiting close to home where they had a good relationship with them and could better determine who might be of good character as well as good athletic (and academic) fit.

Sounds like maybe Rice needs to be recruiting closer to home. (Then they don't leave to be closer to home; they have local interest and might draw more to the game, get better media coverage, etc.) Plus, local kids know that Rice is the top school in Texas and the degree has $$ value.

"Bulldog Nation" just lost one of their (in-state) recruits to a girlfriend choking incident and consistently ranks high in the Fulmer cup standings (and that hasn't changed from Richt to Smart) so let's not take any lessons from them.

(04-22-2017 07:47 PM)grOWLer Wrote:  I live in Georgia and have to put up with the "Bulldog Nation" on a daily basis. Several UGa coaches ago, they got the commitment and arrival of a 4 or 5-star running back from California and the Bulldog Nation was ecstatic. It turned out the youngster had less than desirable morals and, after a few quick and major infractions, was dismissed from the team and school. The coach said that he had learned a lesson. Since he and his staff did not have a close relationship with the high school coaches in many other states, they would try to do more recruiting close to home where they had a good relationship with them and could better determine who might be of good character as well as good athletic (and academic) fit.
Sounds like maybe Rice needs to be recruiting closer to home. (Then they don't leave to be closer to home; they have local interest and might draw more to the game, get better media coverage, etc.) Plus, local kids know that Rice is the top school in Texas and the degree has $$ value.

Don Knodel and I have had this conversation several times over the years. He pretty much recruited out of state because 1) Texas HS basketball wasn't nearly as good then as it is now, and 2) most of the good basketball players that there were in Texas couldn't come close to handling Rice academics. It think today is a different story.

One of the reasons I pushed Bob Marlin for the Rice job a couple of times is that he had very deep and strong Texas recruiting connections.

Overall, I was very happy with Rhodes and I'm happy with what we have now, although it will take some time to unwind everything. On the other hand, I think we would have been better off with Marlin than Braun, although a lot of that may be simply that we would have been far better off had Greenspan never darkened our door.

(04-24-2017 06:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(04-22-2017 07:47 PM)grOWLer Wrote:  I live in Georgia and have to put up with the "Bulldog Nation" on a daily basis. Several UGa coaches ago, they got the commitment and arrival of a 4 or 5-star running back from California and the Bulldog Nation was ecstatic. It turned out the youngster had less than desirable morals and, after a few quick and major infractions, was dismissed from the team and school. The coach said that he had learned a lesson. Since he and his staff did not have a close relationship with the high school coaches in many other states, they would try to do more recruiting close to home where they had a good relationship with them and could better determine who might be of good character as well as good athletic (and academic) fit.
Sounds like maybe Rice needs to be recruiting closer to home. (Then they don't leave to be closer to home; they have local interest and might draw more to the game, get better media coverage, etc.) Plus, local kids know that Rice is the top school in Texas and the degree has $$ value.

Don Knodel and I have had this conversation several times over the years. He pretty much recruited out of state because 1) Texas HS basketball wasn't nearly as good then as it is now, and 2) most of the good basketball players that there were in Texas couldn't come close to handling Rice academics. It think today is a different story.

One of the reasons I pushed Bob Marlin for the Rice job a couple of times is that he had very deep and strong Texas recruiting connections.

Overall, I was very happy with Rhodes and I'm happy with what we have now, although it will take some time to unwind everything. On the other hand, I think we would have been better off with Marlin than Braun, although a lot of that may be simply that we would have been far better off had Greenspan never darkened our door.

It's interesting that I've been given at least three different versions of who hired Greenspan. One says it was Leebron. Another that it was a professor who has since departed Rice. Another, that it was done by a committee. No one seems to be anxious to claim credit for hiring Greenspan. To me, it has seemed like only an academic would have wanted to hire that caricature of an athletic director.

(04-24-2017 07:50 AM)ranfin Wrote:  

(04-24-2017 06:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(04-22-2017 07:47 PM)grOWLer Wrote:  I live in Georgia and have to put up with the "Bulldog Nation" on a daily basis. Several UGa coaches ago, they got the commitment and arrival of a 4 or 5-star running back from California and the Bulldog Nation was ecstatic. It turned out the youngster had less than desirable morals and, after a few quick and major infractions, was dismissed from the team and school. The coach said that he had learned a lesson. Since he and his staff did not have a close relationship with the high school coaches in many other states, they would try to do more recruiting close to home where they had a good relationship with them and could better determine who might be of good character as well as good athletic (and academic) fit.
Sounds like maybe Rice needs to be recruiting closer to home. (Then they don't leave to be closer to home; they have local interest and might draw more to the game, get better media coverage, etc.) Plus, local kids know that Rice is the top school in Texas and the degree has $$ value.

Don Knodel and I have had this conversation several times over the years. He pretty much recruited out of state because 1) Texas HS basketball wasn't nearly as good then as it is now, and 2) most of the good basketball players that there were in Texas couldn't come close to handling Rice academics. It think today is a different story.

One of the reasons I pushed Bob Marlin for the Rice job a couple of times is that he had very deep and strong Texas recruiting connections.

Overall, I was very happy with Rhodes and I'm happy with what we have now, although it will take some time to unwind everything. On the other hand, I think we would have been better off with Marlin than Braun, although a lot of that may be simply that we would have been far better off had Greenspan never darkened our door.

It's interesting that I've been given at least three different versions of who hired Greenspan. One says it was Leebron. Another that it was a professor who has since departed Rice. Another, that it was done by a committee. No one seems to be anxious to claim credit for hiring Greenspan. To me, it has seemed like only an academic would have wanted to hire that caricature of an athletic director.

Or, the ultimate worst, a committee of academics.

(04-23-2017 10:09 PM)Snozberry Wrote:  I don't think his basketball prospects are going to get any better at Howard. One of the worst teams in the worst conference in D1.

.....and like the others in that regard (excluding Egor and Evans).
So again, the question is begged --- what is it about Rice that is so distasteful for ALMOST ALL of these MBB players?

(04-24-2017 06:28 PM)Barney Wrote:  

(04-23-2017 10:09 PM)Snozberry Wrote:  I don't think his basketball prospects are going to get any better at Howard. One of the worst teams in the worst conference in D1.

.....and like the others in that regard (excluding Egor and Evans).
So again, the question is begged --- what is it about Rice that is so distasteful for ALMOST ALL of these MBB players?

There's no common thread. Six of our players are leaving, but they are leaving for six totally different destinations and for six different, highly individualized sets of reasons.

In Lott's case, it's not academics because he's transferring from one rigorous school to another. It's not basketball/fan support reasons because Howard is terrible with low attendance. It clearly isn't a change made to be closer to home, or because of wanting a different climate, or wanting a college town setting rather than a city setting. It doesn't seem to be a personal issue with Pera, of whom he spoke warmly in his departure announcement. Unless he has family or a girlfriend in DC or at Howard, I'll stick with the most likely explanation being that that he has made a personal decision that the unique atmosphere of a HBCU, and the preeminent HBCU in the country at that, is the best fit for him, personally, at this juncture in his life.

I don't think Rice is a racist place by any reasonable standard, but I'm not so clueless as to think there aren't challenges in being African-American at Rice. Rice should always be striving to better understand and address those challenges. With that said, nothing we could ever do would turn us into Howard. Not sure there are any major lessons to be drawn here.

(04-25-2017 01:27 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  

(04-24-2017 06:28 PM)Barney Wrote:  

(04-23-2017 10:09 PM)Snozberry Wrote:  I don't think his basketball prospects are going to get any better at Howard. One of the worst teams in the worst conference in D1.

.....and like the others in that regard (excluding Egor and Evans).
So again, the question is begged --- what is it about Rice that is so distasteful for ALMOST ALL of these MBB players?

There's no common thread. Six of our players are leaving, but they are leaving for six totally different destinations and for six different, highly individualized sets of reasons.

In Lott's case, it's not academics because he's transferring from one rigorous school to another. It's not basketball/fan support reasons because Howard is terrible with low attendance. It clearly isn't a change made to be closer to home, or because of wanting a different climate, or wanting a college town setting rather than a city setting. It doesn't seem to be a personal issue with Pera, of whom he spoke warmly in his departure announcement. Unless he has family or a girlfriend in DC or at Howard, I'll stick with the most likely explanation being that that he has made a personal decision that the unique atmosphere of a HBCU, and the preeminent HBCU in the country at that, is the best fit for him, personally, at this juncture in his life.

I don't think Rice is a racist place by any reasonable standard, but I'm not so clueless as to think there aren't challenges in being African-American at Rice. Rice should always be striving to better understand and address those challenges. With that said, nothing we could ever do would turn us into Howard. Not sure there are any major lessons to be drawn here.

I agree with this too.

I believe the much lauded (and rightfully so) MK did the same thing (transferred from Rice to Howard).

Diversity is Rice's means of battling racism. It's funny that it may be the reason that an African American student chooses to leave. Another policy with unintended consequences.

(04-25-2017 02:41 PM)RiceBull Wrote:  Diversity is Rice's means of battling racism. It's funny that it may be the reason that an African American student chooses to leave. Another policy with unintended consequences.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that the diversity of Rice's student body was the reason Lott (or other African Americans) were transferring from Rice.

Not directly. But implied by illiniowl. At least that is how I took it. "he has made a personal decision that the unique atmosphere of a HBCU, and the preeminent HBCU in the country at that, is the best fit for him, personally, at this juncture in his life." followed by "I don't think Rice is a racist place by any reasonable standard, but I'm not so clueless as to think there aren't challenges in being African-American at Rice".

I guess I am clueless. What are the challenges? Seems to me that illiniowl's implication is that Chad wants to be at a school with less diversity.

Just so you know, I am not intending to make a personal statement regarding Chad. My statement is more toward the attitude that universities have to solve the world's issues. Diversity was supposed to be one of the solutions. But it turns out maybe people like hanging with people they can relate to. I'm ok with that.

But Knodel did get some good players who were academically sound from Texas such as Danny Carroll who was Phi Beta Kappa in English.

(04-24-2017 06:29 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(04-22-2017 07:47 PM)grOWLer Wrote:  I live in Georgia and have to put up with the "Bulldog Nation" on a daily basis. Several UGa coaches ago, they got the commitment and arrival of a 4 or 5-star running back from California and the Bulldog Nation was ecstatic. It turned out the youngster had less than desirable morals and, after a few quick and major infractions, was dismissed from the team and school. The coach said that he had learned a lesson. Since he and his staff did not have a close relationship with the high school coaches in many other states, they would try to do more recruiting close to home where they had a good relationship with them and could better determine who might be of good character as well as good athletic (and academic) fit.
Sounds like maybe Rice needs to be recruiting closer to home. (Then they don't leave to be closer to home; they have local interest and might draw more to the game, get better media coverage, etc.) Plus, local kids know that Rice is the top school in Texas and the degree has $$ value.

Don Knodel and I have had this conversation several times over the years. He pretty much recruited out of state because 1) Texas HS basketball wasn't nearly as good then as it is now, and 2) most of the good basketball players that there were in Texas couldn't come close to handling Rice academics. It think today is a different story.

One of the reasons I pushed Bob Marlin for the Rice job a couple of times is that he had very deep and strong Texas recruiting connections.

Overall, I was very happy with Rhodes and I'm happy with what we have now, although it will take some time to unwind everything. On the other hand, I think we would have been better off with Marlin than Braun, although a lot of that may be simply that we would have been far better off had Greenspan never darkened our door.

(04-25-2017 03:26 PM)RiceBull Wrote:  Not directly. But implied by illiniowl. At least that is how I took it. "he has made a personal decision that the unique atmosphere of a HBCU, and the preeminent HBCU in the country at that, is the best fit for him, personally, at this juncture in his life." followed by "I don't think Rice is a racist place by any reasonable standard, but I'm not so clueless as to think there aren't challenges in being African-American at Rice".

I guess I am clueless. What are the challenges? Seems to me that illiniowl's implication is that Chad wants to be at a school with less diversity.

Just so you know, I am not intending to make a personal statement regarding Chad. My statement is more toward the attitude that universities have to solve the world's issues. Diversity was supposed to be one of the solutions. But it turns out maybe people like hanging with people they can relate to. I'm ok with that.

You're falsely equating diversity with minority status.

IMO, it is very easy to see the difference from wanting to attend a university that has historical significance and where you'll find more POC (by literally an order of magnitude, ~90% to 9%) and not wanting to be at a diverse university.

But you can try and do the Skip Bayless hot take and try and make that a controversial decision.

(04-25-2017 03:59 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  You're falsely equating diversity with minority status.

IMO, it is very easy to see the difference from wanting to attend a university that has historical significance and where you'll find more POC (by literally an order of magnitude, ~90% to 9%) and not wanting to be at a diverse university.

But you can try and do the Skip Bayless hot take and try and make that a controversial decision.

So we agree, kind of. Regarding your first sentence. I did not equate the two. I would say that race is a component of diversity though.

I am not chastising Chad's choice. I think it is a good choice for him. If his choice was based on what has been presumed here then Rice was not his place. I don't think Rice needs to feel bad about that or launch an investigation.

(04-21-2017 01:10 PM)Barney Wrote:  But this just leads me further down the path of wondering if Division 1 MBB and our academic mission are compatible.

I've always had to wonder if Division 1 athletics, or any other division while we're thinking about it, is in any way compatible with the academic mission of a university. Every college anywhere is more challenging than the vast majority of high schools in terms of academics. I suppose there may be a few which are not. At the big time athletic programs, the so-called student-athletes are notoriously mostly athlete and questionably students. This, in spite of the NCAA advertisements to the contrary. A colleague of mine, now retired, told his story of being at Southern University on a baseball scholarship, when the coach told him to make a decision if he was going to play baseball or go to class. He chose class, and retired after over 40 years as an engineer. He'd have not had the same career, or even close to it, if he'd made a different decision. My thought is that college academics are challenging enough for most people that doing anything else, even working part-time, is probably too much of a distraction.

(04-25-2017 09:49 PM)WeatherfordOwl Wrote:  My thought is that college academics are challenging enough for most people that doing anything else, even working part-time, is probably too much of a distraction.

Sorry, gotta completely disagree. College, in general, is just not that difficult. I suppose in certain majors it is tougher, but not in most. There's plenty of time to take part in a variety of activities and still succeed in the classroom.

Unless you're functionally illiterate. Then all bets are off.

(04-25-2017 10:38 PM)InterestedX Wrote:  

(04-25-2017 09:49 PM)WeatherfordOwl Wrote:  My thought is that college academics are challenging enough for most people that doing anything else, even working part-time, is probably too much of a distraction.

Sorry, gotta completely disagree. College, in general, is just not that difficult. I suppose in certain majors it is tougher, but not in most. There's plenty of time to take part in a variety of activities and still succeed in the classroom.

Unless you're functionally illiterate. Then all bets are off.

This made me laugh... probably more than it should have....

(and, FWIW, with regard to the topic at hand, I think it's abundantly clear that Lott is more than capable as a student. In my experience, he even spells stuff right on twitter, and I think that is high praise, considering... twitter...

I bet love drive him to Howard.

(04-25-2017 01:27 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  

(04-24-2017 06:28 PM)Barney Wrote:  

(04-23-2017 10:09 PM)Snozberry Wrote:  I don't think his basketball prospects are going to get any better at Howard. One of the worst teams in the worst conference in D1.

.....and like the others in that regard (excluding Egor and Evans).
So again, the question is begged --- what is it about Rice that is so distasteful for ALMOST ALL of these MBB players?

There's no common thread. Six of our players are leaving, but they are leaving for six totally different destinations and for six different, highly individualized sets of reasons.

In Lott's case, it's not academics because he's transferring from one rigorous school to another. It's not basketball/fan support reasons because Howard is terrible with low attendance. It clearly isn't a change made to be closer to home, or because of wanting a different climate, or wanting a college town setting rather than a city setting. It doesn't seem to be a personal issue with Pera, of whom he spoke warmly in his departure announcement. Unless he has family or a girlfriend in DC or at Howard, I'll stick with the most likely explanation being that that he has made a personal decision that the unique atmosphere of a HBCU, and the preeminent HBCU in the country at that, is the best fit for him, personally, at this juncture in his life.

I don't think Rice is a racist place by any reasonable standard, but I'm not so clueless as to think there aren't challenges in being African-American at Rice. Rice should always be striving to better understand and address those challenges. With that said, nothing we could ever do would turn us into Howard. Not sure there are any major lessons to be drawn here.