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Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
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TerpsNPhoenix Offline
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Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
When Hopkins first joined the Big Ten in lacrosse they made a 5 year commitment. "The committee proposed seeking an initial five-year term of league membership, with protection for Johns Hopkins' spot on the conference roster should another full member adopt men's lacrosse." http://hub.jhu.edu/gazette/2013/june/thi...iliation/. We are now almost at the end of year 3 and decisions regarding their future will need to be made.

From Maryland's end I think it's worked out pretty well. Terps will play them REGARDLESS of what their status is (conference member, independent or whatever) but it's nice having them as a Big Ten member. I know it's only been 3 years (almost) but I really like the direction the conference is heading. When the league first started it seemed like it was Maryland, Hopkins and then everyone else. This year, a few of the teams have been ranked and are playing really well. The conference tournament should be fun. I'm curious to see if this is a one year blip of is it the beginning of a trend. We shall have to wait and see.

So back to Hopkins. Do they want to stay? Do they have a reason/reasons to leave? What is the benefit to them for each decision.
1) Hopkins stay and continue to grow the conference?
2) Hopkins leave? Where do they go? Independence, ACC, other?
3) If Hopkins leaves, what does the Big Ten do? Is anyone ready to start a lacrosse program. Is there a program that can be brought in Ala Notre Dame for hockey (I think Hopkins IS that program for lacrosse so this is unlikely.

I *think* Hopkins will stay but the Big Ten REALLY needs to look at its future for lacrosse. Hopkins leaving would kill the conference tournament.
04-18-2017 07:18 AM
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westwolf Offline
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
I hope JHU stays and that the Terps and Jays continue to school the flatlanders. BTW, why wouldn't NW play men's lacrosse?
04-18-2017 08:03 AM
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nzmorange Offline
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
I think that JHU will stay.

The ACC screwed up by not adding JHU when UMD was in the conference.
04-18-2017 08:14 AM
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TerpsNPhoenix Offline
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-18-2017 08:03 AM)westwolf Wrote:  I hope JHU stays and that the Terps and Jays continue to school the flatlanders. BTW, why wouldn't NW play men's lacrosse?
They have a women's team who is pretty darn good. I believe the coach is a Maryland alum. I think the issue is title 9 regarding a men's team but don't know that for certain. It is probably the reason for most schools not having it, or at least the more eastern schools. Not sure about the western schools interest.
04-18-2017 08:39 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-18-2017 08:14 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  The ACC screwed up by not adding JHU when UMD was in the conference.

I think the lack of UMD makes JHU all the more attractive for the conference now. Maryland may as well be the heart of the sport...and the ACC isn't in it. Does it need to be? I don't know. It doesn't seem like they do now. Down the road, especially if more schools sponsor it, especially in the western part of the country? Maybe.

ACC didn't need them. ACC was so good, it didn't need AQ...NCAA gave them it anyway with only five programs.

But...I think Johns Hopkins wants to be in the ACC more than the Big Ten. Maybe the five-year window was more for the ACC to reexamine its decision than for Hopkins to assess theirs.

Also, I still wonder if Patriot isn't in play. Whether it became one of the bigger conferences with its addition of Loyola. It didn't seem like it did.
04-18-2017 08:47 AM
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TerpsNPhoenix Offline
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-18-2017 08:47 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 08:14 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  The ACC screwed up by not adding JHU when UMD was in the conference.

ACC didn't need them. ACC was so good, it didn't need AQ...NCAA gave them it anyway with only five programs.

But...I think Johns Hopkins wants to be in the ACC more than the Big Ten. Maybe the five-year window was more for the ACC to reexamine its decision than for Hopkins to assess theirs.

This is the gist my fears. Boils down to the Big Ten needing Hopkins more than Hopkins needs the Big Ten. Hence my desire for the Big Ten to start looking NOW at possible solutions even if this "problem" never materializes.
04-18-2017 09:49 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
Minnesota high schools have plenty of lacrosse teams.

Would like to see the U of MN add men's and women's teams, in the future.
04-18-2017 10:24 AM
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-18-2017 10:24 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Minnesota high schools have plenty of lacrosse teams.

Would like to see the U of MN add men's and women's teams, in the future.

The Star Tribune had a Gopher lax article recently that said lax was five years from varsity.
04-18-2017 10:44 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-18-2017 09:49 AM)TerpsNPhoenix Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 08:47 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 08:14 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  The ACC screwed up by not adding JHU when UMD was in the conference.

ACC didn't need them. ACC was so good, it didn't need AQ...NCAA gave them it anyway with only five programs.

But...I think Johns Hopkins wants to be in the ACC more than the Big Ten. Maybe the five-year window was more for the ACC to reexamine its decision than for Hopkins to assess theirs.

This is the gist my fears. Boils down to the Big Ten needing Hopkins more than Hopkins needs the Big Ten. Hence my desire for the Big Ten to start looking NOW at possible solutions even if this "problem" never materializes.

It always seemed off to me how Hopkins mentioned not getting into the ACC when they formally announced they were joining the Big Ten. Like, why raise that at all in that particular release?

Then, always putting off the CIC...I don't get the sense Hopkins really wants to be in the Big Ten. It just tolerates it for now and wants it until it knows it could resume life as an independent or go where it really wants to go.

I think you're right about the Big Ten needing them more than the other way around, but with the ACC getting by on AQ under six teams, I wonder if the Big Ten couldn't also do that. Maryland's pretty much a lock, Hopkins the legacy program, but with OSU and Penn State good enough as well. The Big Ten isn't the ACC...it's not far behind the Patriot, either.
04-18-2017 01:43 PM
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Go College Sports Online
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
I think the ACC lost the AQ this year, right?
04-18-2017 04:05 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-18-2017 04:05 PM)Go College Sports Wrote:  I think the ACC lost the AQ this year, right?

I'm not sure that it matters. I think that a lot of people are going to trip over themselves to give the ACC champ a bid regardless.
04-18-2017 04:22 PM
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-18-2017 01:43 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 09:49 AM)TerpsNPhoenix Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 08:47 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 08:14 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  The ACC screwed up by not adding JHU when UMD was in the conference.

ACC didn't need them. ACC was so good, it didn't need AQ...NCAA gave them it anyway with only five programs.

But...I think Johns Hopkins wants to be in the ACC more than the Big Ten. Maybe the five-year window was more for the ACC to reexamine its decision than for Hopkins to assess theirs.

This is the gist my fears. Boils down to the Big Ten needing Hopkins more than Hopkins needs the Big Ten. Hence my desire for the Big Ten to start looking NOW at possible solutions even if this "problem" never materializes.

It always seemed off to me how Hopkins mentioned not getting into the ACC when they formally announced they were joining the Big Ten. Like, why raise that at all in that particular release?

Then, always putting off the CIC...I don't get the sense Hopkins really wants to be in the Big Ten. It just tolerates it for now and wants it until it knows it could resume life as an independent or go where it really wants to go.

I think you're right about the Big Ten needing them more than the other way around, but with the ACC getting by on AQ under six teams, I wonder if the Big Ten couldn't also do that. Maryland's pretty much a lock, Hopkins the legacy program, but with OSU and Penn State good enough as well. The Big Ten isn't the ACC...it's not far behind the Patriot, either.

...that, and the CIC isn't actually meaningful for JHU. If it was, all the Ivies, and everyone else, would be trying to get in too. In fact, schools would be adding lax to get in.
04-18-2017 04:40 PM
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
If they gave Liberty a waiver to join FBS? Could NCAA D1 give Hopkins a waiver to join, lets say the Patriot League for all sports without going the 2 year route? Patriot is looking for more football teams. Hopkins is usually good at D3 in football. They could play in the Pioneer League for the first few years to ease themselves into D1.
04-18-2017 05:09 PM
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-18-2017 05:09 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  If they gave Liberty a waiver to join FBS? Could NCAA D1 give Hopkins a waiver to join, lets say the Patriot League for all sports without going the 2 year route? Patriot is looking for more football teams. Hopkins is usually good at D3 in football. They could play in the Pioneer League for the first few years to ease themselves into D1.

Just stop with this nonsense.
04-18-2017 05:15 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-18-2017 04:40 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  ...that, and the CIC isn't actually meaningful for JHU. If it was, all the Ivies, and everyone else, would be trying to get in too. In fact, schools would be adding lax to get in.

I know you're not a fan of it, but its mystique to some schools is publicly documented. That mystique took a big shot when Hopkins rebuffed the invite. I thought it was really pompous how the Big Ten shoved that invitation publicly into the lacrosse affiliation announcement, without Hopkins confirming they were interested or intent upon "applying." The conference has not done it since the JHU men's lax announcement, not including it for JHU's women's lacrosse or Notre Dame's ice hockey affiliations.

I think Chicago skipping out and saying they were affiliated with most of the schools elsewhere was another big blow. The Big Ten's side to it was much more padded than UC's. The rebrand is silly. I'm sure the conference has lost that "asset" as leverage.

I've wondered if the reach for Nebraska and the bad cover job about AAU membership when invited despite that membership being in such peril, at the hands of fellow Big Ten schools no less, didn't also turn off the association.
04-19-2017 04:12 AM
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-18-2017 04:40 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 01:43 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 09:49 AM)TerpsNPhoenix Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 08:47 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 08:14 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  The ACC screwed up by not adding JHU when UMD was in the conference.

ACC didn't need them. ACC was so good, it didn't need AQ...NCAA gave them it anyway with only five programs.

But...I think Johns Hopkins wants to be in the ACC more than the Big Ten. Maybe the five-year window was more for the ACC to reexamine its decision than for Hopkins to assess theirs.

This is the gist my fears. Boils down to the Big Ten needing Hopkins more than Hopkins needs the Big Ten. Hence my desire for the Big Ten to start looking NOW at possible solutions even if this "problem" never materializes.

It always seemed off to me how Hopkins mentioned not getting into the ACC when they formally announced they were joining the Big Ten. Like, why raise that at all in that particular release?

Then, always putting off the CIC...I don't get the sense Hopkins really wants to be in the Big Ten. It just tolerates it for now and wants it until it knows it could resume life as an independent or go where it really wants to go.

I think you're right about the Big Ten needing them more than the other way around, but with the ACC getting by on AQ under six teams, I wonder if the Big Ten couldn't also do that. Maryland's pretty much a lock, Hopkins the legacy program, but with OSU and Penn State good enough as well. The Big Ten isn't the ACC...it's not far behind the Patriot, either.

...that, and the CIC isn't actually meaningful for JHU. If it was, all the Ivies, and everyone else, would be trying to get in too. In fact, schools would be adding lax to get in.

#1 Johns Hopkins research dollars are about equal to #2 Michigan and #3 Wisconsin combined. The CIC probably wants to take notes.
04-19-2017 07:20 AM
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-19-2017 07:20 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 04:40 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 01:43 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 09:49 AM)TerpsNPhoenix Wrote:  
(04-18-2017 08:47 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  ACC didn't need them. ACC was so good, it didn't need AQ...NCAA gave them it anyway with only five programs.

But...I think Johns Hopkins wants to be in the ACC more than the Big Ten. Maybe the five-year window was more for the ACC to reexamine its decision than for Hopkins to assess theirs.

This is the gist my fears. Boils down to the Big Ten needing Hopkins more than Hopkins needs the Big Ten. Hence my desire for the Big Ten to start looking NOW at possible solutions even if this "problem" never materializes.

It always seemed off to me how Hopkins mentioned not getting into the ACC when they formally announced they were joining the Big Ten. Like, why raise that at all in that particular release?

Then, always putting off the CIC...I don't get the sense Hopkins really wants to be in the Big Ten. It just tolerates it for now and wants it until it knows it could resume life as an independent or go where it really wants to go.

I think you're right about the Big Ten needing them more than the other way around, but with the ACC getting by on AQ under six teams, I wonder if the Big Ten couldn't also do that. Maryland's pretty much a lock, Hopkins the legacy program, but with OSU and Penn State good enough as well. The Big Ten isn't the ACC...it's not far behind the Patriot, either.

...that, and the CIC isn't actually meaningful for JHU. If it was, all the Ivies, and everyone else, would be trying to get in too. In fact, schools would be adding lax to get in.

#1 Johns Hopkins research dollars are about equal to #2 Michigan and #3 Wisconsin combined. The CIC probably wants to take notes.

http://www.btaa.org/docs/default-source/...f?sfvrsn=0

My thoughts on research at one school tangibly impacting research at another are pretty well known, and I have yet to hear a coherent argument to the contrary, but my beliefs aside, see page 6. The CIC saved Michigan almost literally thousands of dollars combined between 2001-2007 (it's an old report - I'm not cherry picking 2007). In all fairness, it did save PSU about $1 million per year on average between when PSU joined and 2012 (not mentioned in the report).

But I think those numbers are juiced by counting inter-library loans, which schools do anyway. I think that they're also juiced by not betting member fees.

Even if the lowest conference has 25% of the savings, the difference is less than a rounding error on PSU's $4+ billion yearly budget.

The CIC's best feature is shared classes via remote learning. Students can take a limited number of obscure classes (usually languages), which they wouldn't be able to otherwise take. There's also summer school reciprocity, which schools do anyway.

In all honestly, the CIC, like all the other conference academic consortiums, is severely overblown. The B1G just has a great PR arm (because a collection of huge state universities has to), and most posters here have no idea what they're taking about and/or don't take the time to think critically about the issue.
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2017 08:41 AM by nzmorange.)
04-19-2017 08:22 AM
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-19-2017 07:20 AM)XLance Wrote:  #1 Johns Hopkins research dollars are about equal to #2 Michigan and #3 Wisconsin combined. The CIC probably wants to take notes.

That's a load of crap, though.

JHU is a great school, don't get me wrong. But it's not a true #1. Hence why it always has an asterisk.


(04-19-2017 08:22 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  My thoughts on research at one school tangibly impacting research at another are pretty well known,

No, that's not your thought. Because there's no point in arguing if one school's research directly affects another school's research. It doesn't, and no one says otherwise. Indirectly, sure, in small ways.

Your thought is "I don't understand why a school would be added to an athletics conference because of its research". Because you don't get it.
04-19-2017 08:54 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
(04-19-2017 08:22 AM)nzmorange Wrote:  In all honestly, the CIC, like all the other conference academic consortiums, is severely overblown.

It is. That's what made Chicago's words on it very humbling. They are associated with Big Ten schools in so many other different groups, coops, and associations...CIC/BTAA was no longer worth the association fee. It wasn't worth it. It's just another club.

These things are a dime a dozen. CIC/BTAA, to Chicago and Johns Hopkins at least, isn't anything special.

Quote:JHU is a great school, don't get me wrong. But it's not a true #1. Hence why it always has an asterisk.

The other end, you have all those ag-sci schools who can't count other funding sources toward their research dollar intake, like UNL. Saying JHU has an asterisk is just petty. The whole structure is really subjective.
04-19-2017 09:42 AM
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RE: Johns Hopkins , Big Ten Lacrosse and the future
Nebraska counts all the research funding it spends. Funding that Nebraska medical (in Omaha ... but not part of UNO) spends doesn't count for Lincoln, right now.

I'm talking about the APL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applied_Ph...Laboratory This is why JHU has an actual asterisk by its name in the #1 position.
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2017 09:56 AM by MplsBison.)
04-19-2017 09:54 AM
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