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Savannah State headed to D-II
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
(04-14-2017 12:18 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  They SHOULD be a peer of USA, UAH, and UAB. But instead of building ASU into a comprehensive University for the entire community

But again, that's not the direction that the presidents, leaders, and boosters of HBCU's would choose. They don't want to make Alabama State into the University of Central Alabama. They want to maintain and promote the "black college experience". Which is just fine.


IMO, there are the two valid paths forward for HBCUs:
a) convert them into comprehensive public universities, devoid of any racial mission (but not ignoring the past)
b) continue the HBCU mission, but not as a public school

I advocate for b.

(04-14-2017 12:18 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  the state of Alabama saw fit to create and fund 'white' competitors for ASU, thus stifling the ability of ASU to compete for non-African American students.

...

Basically AUM and TSU-M were reactions to integration. They were founded in 1967 and 1965, respectively.

This part I think is tangential to the core discussion, and I have no bone to pick with you about it. Regardless if it was motivated by racial bigotry, it is ridiculous to have Auburn and Troy campuses in Monty *if* you're saying that you already have a fully comprehensive, public university in the city.
(This post was last modified: 04-14-2017 12:41 PM by MplsBison.)
04-14-2017 12:38 PM
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GreenHornet33 Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
(04-14-2017 12:09 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  They actively market themselves, both to the public and to black students, as a special/unique experience for the black college student, that can't be had elsewhere.

And there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, I encourage that mission to continue. It's simply not a mission that should be publicly funded, is all.


But sorry Tom, you know darn well that ASU and AAM are not marketing themselves to every student in the state and saying "hey, we're just like Auburn".

Auburn was a bad example. Auburn is notorious for having a small black student population. Auburn's black student population is 7%. Both ASU and A&M have white student populations greater than that.
04-14-2017 03:36 PM
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Post: #63
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
(04-14-2017 12:03 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 11:34 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  If the U of Alabama, Auburn, UAB, UAH, USA, UNA, UWA, Troy, Jax St ... all no longer discriminate against African-American applicants, then there is no reason for public money to fund Alabama HBCU's.

That's my opinion. Has zero chance, in Alabama or any HBCU state, I know.

Why is it the issue of the HBCU's? I'll give you an example. Alabama State University (a HBCU) pre-dates two HWCU's (Auburn Montgomery and Troy Montgomery).

If there's a problem in Montgomery with duplicative programs...that's not on Alabama State.

I promise you, if you'd like to apply for admission at Alabama State or any of the public HBCU's....you'll find zero discrimination against you based upon your race. It might be true that the collegiate culture isn't one that you are familiar with...but that's not discrimination.

That's true. Its why Tennessee merged Tennessee-Nashville with Tennessee St. and why Georgia merged Darton with Albany St. Alabama ought to do the same thing. Savannah really should have been merged with Armstrong St. (which is a much bigger school), but they decided to merge Georgia Southern with Armstrong. Mississippi has Mississippi Valley and Delta St. very close and Louisiana has Southern U-New Orleans and the University of New Orleans next door to each other. TSU and Houston are next door, but at least serve a little different type of student.
04-14-2017 03:43 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
What I mean about HBCU image gone or some such sort is not about history. I am talking about culture. They tend to target the poorer kids from all the races who can not go to Alabama, Auburn, Ole Miss., Miss. State and so forth. The poor is not black kids, but from all races which now the equal rights these days trend towards the poor who do not have equal rights. Some of the kids like the swimmer at Stanford, accused of rape, and got off so easy, came from families of rich privileged white parents. If a kid from a poor white parents accused of rape? They get the book thrown at them, and locked up for so many years. The culture at some of these HBCU schools are now more in line with UAB, UAH, South Alabama, Central Arkansas and many others. UAPB is now trending that way as well attracting other races to attend. Saw so many commercials for them on tv, and they have white students and instructors. All working together with other kids of all colors. Surprise they did not get a growth in student count.

The problem I am seeing is the rules in NCAA at the D1 level that is keeping HBCUs from joining FBS. I could see Tennessee State might be the only one that could make a move up, but others in large cities could need that exposure as well.
04-14-2017 03:44 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
The deal is that there are community colleges and diploma mills for those not ready for major college curriculum. If they prove they can do the work, they can advance from there.
04-14-2017 04:01 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
(04-14-2017 03:36 PM)GreenHornet33 Wrote:  Auburn was a bad example. Auburn is notorious for having a small black student population. Auburn's black student population is 7%. Both ASU and A&M have white student populations greater than that.

A state with 26% black population, and the land-grant flagship public school only has 7% black students???

Maybe when you look at the number of Alabama high school students apply to college, the % of black students in that pool drops dramatically?? But I agree, on its face without further investigation, that number seems pathetic.
04-14-2017 04:02 PM
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GreenHornet33 Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
(04-14-2017 04:02 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 03:36 PM)GreenHornet33 Wrote:  Auburn was a bad example. Auburn is notorious for having a small black student population. Auburn's black student population is 7%. Both ASU and A&M have white student populations greater than that.

A state with 26% black population, and the land-grant flagship public school only has 7% black students???

Maybe when you look at the number of Alabama high school students apply to college, the % of black students in that pool drops dramatically?? But I agree, on its face without further investigation, that number seems pathetic.

Auburn was "marketed' to "Over The Mountain" kids as a place with the same type of demographics that they were accustomed to in high school. Auburn has been criticized for missing out on college fairs held by The Birmingham City and Montgomery City Schools but will never miss an opportunity to go there to get the back athlete out of those same school systems. Alabama catches hell for is racial past and its current racial climate but their black student population has ALWAYS been higher than Auburn's. If you look across the state, Troy, UAB, UNA, West Alabama and others have al done a better job of recruiting black students than Auburn has.
04-14-2017 04:39 PM
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GreenHornet33 Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
(04-14-2017 03:44 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  What I mean about HBCU image gone or some such sort is not about history. I am talking about culture. They tend to target the poorer kids from all the races who can not go to Alabama, Auburn, Ole Miss., Miss. State and so forth. The poor is not black kids, but from all races which now the equal rights these days trend towards the poor who do not have equal rights. Some of the kids like the swimmer at Stanford, accused of rape, and got off so easy, came from families of rich privileged white parents. If a kid from a poor white parents accused of rape? They get the book thrown at them, and locked up for so many years. The culture at some of these HBCU schools are now more in line with UAB, UAH, South Alabama, Central Arkansas and many others. UAPB is now trending that way as well attracting other races to attend. Saw so many commercials for them on tv, and they have white students and instructors. All working together with other kids of all colors. Surprise they did not get a growth in student count.

The problem I am seeing is the rules in NCAA at the D1 level that is keeping HBCUs from joining FBS. I could see Tennessee State might be the only one that could make a move up, but others in large cities could need that exposure as well.

But this isn't new or unique. HBCUs have had white instructors. You have several HBCUs named after white men.
04-14-2017 04:45 PM
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ChooChoo Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
(04-14-2017 04:02 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 03:36 PM)GreenHornet33 Wrote:  Auburn was a bad example. Auburn is notorious for having a small black student population. Auburn's black student population is 7%. Both ASU and A&M have white student populations greater than that.

A state with 26% black population, and the land-grant flagship public school only has 7% black students???

Maybe when you look at the number of Alabama high school students apply to college, the % of black students in that pool drops dramatically?? But I agree, on its face without further investigation, that number seems pathetic.

Oh, I have another example for you.
African American population of Georgia as of 2010 - 30.5%
UGA - 7.5%
GT - 7.5%
GaSouthen - 26.5%
GSU - 40%

This is no mistake by the board of regents either.
04-14-2017 04:46 PM
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GreenHornet33 Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
(04-14-2017 04:46 PM)ChooChoo Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 04:02 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 03:36 PM)GreenHornet33 Wrote:  Auburn was a bad example. Auburn is notorious for having a small black student population. Auburn's black student population is 7%. Both ASU and A&M have white student populations greater than that.

A state with 26% black population, and the land-grant flagship public school only has 7% black students???

Maybe when you look at the number of Alabama high school students apply to college, the % of black students in that pool drops dramatically?? But I agree, on its face without further investigation, that number seems pathetic.

Oh, I have another example for you.
African American population of Georgia as of 2010 - 30.5%
UGA - 7.5%
GT - 7.5%
GaSouthen - 26.5%
GSU - 40%

This is no mistake by the board of regents either.

No mistake at all.
04-14-2017 04:50 PM
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HeartOfDixie Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
Instead of talking race why don't we talk the harsh truth?

ACT CDS Numbers

School- 75th Perc.

UA - 31
AU - 30
UAH - 30
UAB- 28
USA - 26
JSU - 26
Troy - 26 (25th Perc. is 19)
UNA - 25 (25th Perc. is 19)
ASU - 19
AA&M - 19

The problem begins prior to college admission. It starts with the kids that are looking at these different schools and in the case of Alabama State a culture of rampant corruption.

In Alabama the HBCUs have a real purpose. They educate a group of kids that would otherwise have no other opportunities. That should be continued.

The HBCUs do not compete with the other public schools. Their student populations have little in the way of overlap. For instance, AA&M and UAH are not competing for students with one another.
(This post was last modified: 04-14-2017 05:31 PM by HeartOfDixie.)
04-14-2017 05:05 PM
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Post: #72
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
(04-14-2017 03:44 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  The problem I am seeing is the rules in NCAA at the D1 level that is keeping HBCUs from joining FBS. I could see Tennessee State might be the only one that could make a move up, but others in large cities could need that exposure as well.

Please, show a link to any current rule designed to keep HBCUs out of I-A; that would not be legal.
04-14-2017 05:33 PM
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Post: #73
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
(04-14-2017 11:43 AM)AZcats Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 02:09 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Jackson and Hattiesburg are two of the largest cities in the state. Kids these days want to go to a school that have a lot of things to do besides sports. Like movies, dance clubs and so forth. UCF got so many of that. Washington State does not have that. There are shifts in growing student population for schools. I think with the right leadership? Jackson State and others HBCUs could thrive.

Do you really think Arkansas Tech grew from 3,000 to 12,000 because of movies and dance clubs?

Movies can be seen anywhere and there is only one theatre with ten screens in town. Russellville is in a dry county with only one private club (unless the other one that was torn down reopened elsewhere). Athletics didn't help either. Softball was the only sport added during that time. No exposure was gained by being D1 and having our name scrolled on ESPN since we are D2. ATU football did appear twice on ESPN bottomline after being slaughtered by McNeese State and Northwestern State.

What did help ATU grow was added and improved academic programs. The physical campus location is also an advantage that no other Arkansas school has, it is less than 1/2 mile from a major coast-to-coast interstate.

Being nearly halfway between Little Rock and the Fayetteville-Springdale-Rogers-Bentonville metros is big but I think the big plus is they are the closest four year school to Northwest Arkansas that isn't UA and have a bit lower admission standards but aren't open enrollment any more.
04-14-2017 07:57 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
(04-14-2017 04:01 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  The deal is that there are community colleges and diploma mills for those not ready for major college curriculum. If they prove they can do the work, they can advance from there.

Diploma mills have turned out to be scams, and any degrees the kids get, can't get a job because those degrees and diplomas are worth nothing.

Second, law makers want to get kids enroll into VoTech schools to get skills to become plumbers, technicians and so forth. Not many poor kids can go to VoTech because they have some type of disabilities. There are not many universities and colleges that are for disabled kids to go to. The only one I can think of is the school in DC called Gallaudet University which fields a football team for deaf kids at the D3 level. The kids went undefeated until the first round of D3 playoffs. ESPN made a big deal about them that year. I could see a spring scrimmage for them with a Maryland or somebody to help raise funds for that University.
04-14-2017 08:12 PM
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Post: #75
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
(04-14-2017 05:33 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 03:44 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  The problem I am seeing is the rules in NCAA at the D1 level that is keeping HBCUs from joining FBS. I could see Tennessee State might be the only one that could make a move up, but others in large cities could need that exposure as well.

Please, show a link to any current rule designed to keep HBCUs out of I-A; that would not be legal.
Alabama State probably would have been in a FBS WAC had New Mexico State and Idaho found several other volunteers - the new stadium certainly drew some attention.
04-14-2017 08:42 PM
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GreenHornet33 Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
(04-14-2017 08:42 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 05:33 PM)AZcats Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 03:44 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  The problem I am seeing is the rules in NCAA at the D1 level that is keeping HBCUs from joining FBS. I could see Tennessee State might be the only one that could make a move up, but others in large cities could need that exposure as well.

Please, show a link to any current rule designed to keep HBCUs out of I-A; that would not be legal.
Alabama State probably would have been in a FBS WAC had New Mexico State and Idaho found several other volunteers - the new stadium certainly drew some attention.

We were never serious about a move to FBS. We have in house matters that need to be solved before we can make such a move.
04-14-2017 09:17 PM
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Post: #77
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
A move to FBS football is not realistic for HBCU schools unless they move up as a group. Even then, they'd be nothing more than a paycheck game...which may not be a bad idea since they wouldn't have a realistic shot at a national title one way or another.
04-14-2017 10:18 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
(04-14-2017 04:46 PM)ChooChoo Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 04:02 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(04-14-2017 03:36 PM)GreenHornet33 Wrote:  Auburn was a bad example. Auburn is notorious for having a small black student population. Auburn's black student population is 7%. Both ASU and A&M have white student populations greater than that.

A state with 26% black population, and the land-grant flagship public school only has 7% black students???

Maybe when you look at the number of Alabama high school students apply to college, the % of black students in that pool drops dramatically?? But I agree, on its face without further investigation, that number seems pathetic.

Oh, I have another example for you.
African American population of Georgia as of 2010 - 30.5%
UGA - 7.5%
GT - 7.5%
GaSouthen - 26.5%
GSU - 40%

This is no mistake by the board of regents either.

Is the mistake being made by the board of regents or by the black population of Georgia for not taking academics seriously?

I mean the black kid that grew up on the farm down the street from me and our farm ended up going to Harvard on a full ride and became a lawyer and now judge because he knew his best chance off the farm was academics. I can't think of a black peer in high school, male or female, who took academics seriously who hasn't succeeded.

At some point the black population of this country needs to quit blaming everything on slavery and Jim Crow and take a deep look at their own culture.
04-14-2017 11:16 PM
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Post: #79
RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
(04-14-2017 08:12 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  ... Not many poor kids can go to VoTech because they have some type of disabilities ...

WTF are you talking about? You seem to be saying being poor means you have some kind of disability. Care to explain this statement? Better yet back it up with some evidence
04-15-2017 12:32 AM
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RE: Savannah State headed to D-II
(04-14-2017 10:18 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  A move to FBS football is not realistic for HBCU schools unless they move up as a group. Even then, they'd be nothing more than a paycheck game...which may not be a bad idea since they wouldn't have a realistic shot at a national title one way or another.

The Classics range from big boosts to the budget to barely worth the effort but going FBS means the end of classics for the team moving. I suspect the Classics have a positive impact on alumni engagement and student recruitment that would be hard to replace.
04-15-2017 12:37 AM
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