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UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #61
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
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04-13-2017 11:43 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #62
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
And look - I'm pretty much as much of a pragmatist as you can get when it comes to political issues. The fact is that I voted Republican in every presidential election that I've been able to vote in up until 2016. I'm a lawyer that actually can't stand filibusters and other procedural crap that get in the way of progress on legislation and other key votes. However, discrimination is a bright line item from my vantage point. This is not a "reasonable people can disagree" type of issue as, say, abortion (where I believe one way but completely sympathize with the other side). I can't stand the polarized atmosphere of our politics as much as anyone, but at the same time, there ARE some black-and-white issues out there (and fighting against discrimination and bigotry is one of them).
04-13-2017 11:45 AM
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Carolina_Low_Country Offline
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Post: #63
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 11:26 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Wow, this got real political, real fast. I apologize for my part in the tangent.

I hate the North Carolina state government. I think it's a farce. But that is my personal opinion, and it has nothing to do with CS & CR. So that is my fault, and I apologize.

Also if you are not a resident of North Carolina it is none of your business on how our state works, just like is none of our business on what California or Florida does.
04-13-2017 11:59 AM
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CardFan1 Offline
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Post: #64
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 11:59 AM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 11:26 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Wow, this got real political, real fast. I apologize for my part in the tangent.

I hate the North Carolina state government. I think it's a farce. But that is my personal opinion, and it has nothing to do with CS & CR. So that is my fault, and I apologize.

Also if you are not a resident of North Carolina it is none of your business on how our state works, just like is none of our business on what California or Florida does.

At least until it winds up in the Supreme court !
04-13-2017 12:12 PM
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RutgersGuy Offline
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Post: #65
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 11:59 AM)Carolina_Low_Country Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 11:26 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Wow, this got real political, real fast. I apologize for my part in the tangent.

I hate the North Carolina state government. I think it's a farce. But that is my personal opinion, and it has nothing to do with CS & CR. So that is my fault, and I apologize.

Also if you are not a resident of North Carolina it is none of your business on how our state works, just like is none of our business on what California or Florida does.

So by your logic Jim Crow was no one elses business.
04-13-2017 12:15 PM
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PK_UToledo Offline
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Post: #66
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
I hear the Missouri Valley Conference is looking...
04-13-2017 12:41 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #67
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 11:15 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 10:45 AM)bluesox Wrote:  If you label somebody a bigot because they disagree with an issue, I don't see where the line gets drawn. It's a good proproganda tool though. I will go back plural marriage, why isn't it bigoted to be against that?

No, I label somebody a bigot when they discriminate against a protected class of citizens. That's quite different than "disagreeing on an issue". I'll once again point to my own company (and pretty much every legally compliant company in America): disagreeing on an issue is not inherently a problem, but discrimination will (and should) get you fired. There's a massive difference between not liking someone's opinion and actually infringing upon another human being's civil rights.

The plural marriage argument is actually a propaganda tool to attempt to justify continued bigotry. I've heard that one many times - "If we allow anyone other than a man and a woman marry, then we're on the road to allowing plural marriage, incest, people marrying pets, and every other "deviant" act out there! Harumph!"

It's obvious that I'll never get anywhere with many people here on the fundamental moral and social underpinnings of what I believe. However, there's an objectively clear legal argument as to why plural marriage is very different than same-sex marriage: plural marriage would require a change to virtually every family law concept on the books, a great portion of the laws regarding wills and trusts, many tax laws and a whole mountain of other statutory and common law standards. Why? Because all of those laws are inherently based on a one person marrying one other person for legal purposes. (Whether a polygamist might choose to take on multiple wives in a religious context is honestly up to them, but a polygamist can only have one *legal* spouse.)

In contrast, not a single family law or estate planning law statute or concept had to be changed with the allowance of same-sex marriage. Every single statutory and common law concept that applies to heterosexual marriage holds up perfectly from a legal perspective. That simply isn't the case for plural marriage (and why courts with judges across the political spectrum would treat it very differently).

The establishment of a "protected class" is a political and legal process. "Bigot" is a moral term, and a powerful word that shouldn't be used lightly.

You're making the mistake of determining your morals by what is legal. As a lawyer, you know darn well that it should go the other way around.

There is zero moral reason why LGB status and gender identity are protected classes and polygamy isn't. The complications you cite (family law would change) are a poor excuse - it'd probably be less complicated than implementing the Americans with Disabilities Act.
04-13-2017 01:08 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #68
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 09:44 AM)murrdcu Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 09:23 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 09:01 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  This is not likely to happen but what if a few other states do pass similar "bathroom" laws. They would also become off limits to ncaa events and presumably, conference events too. Kansas, Texas and whatever other states that are contemplating these sorts of laws would have to join with each other and NC to organize a new semi-national athletic association. Weird.

Texas has been working on one of these bills. I'm not sure why some Houston posters on here are so confident it won't pass. I suspect it will. Oh the horror! No Texhoma PAC 16 for Larry Scott now!

Well, Houston just had an openly lesbian major. Texas is a conservative state, but there is some strong liberal support too.

Houston has a lot of transplants. It's getting huge. That said, sometimes they forget understand the state legislature is mostly controlled by good ol boys from places like Midland/Odessa. Yeah, there's some California Cowboys in Austin who think they have clout, but it's the small town billionaire oil men who really run Texas.
04-13-2017 01:39 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #69
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 10:06 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 08:55 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  I want this to happen so badly! North Carilina and NC ST leaving the ACC would be the funniest thing to happen since the last ACC raid of the Big Least. My bad, the first ACC Big least raid. There's been 3: VD, Da U, BC. Then sPitt, Cuse. Then ND, Ville. Great moments in sports. I mean politics. I mean business. Right, sports.

Still bitter you never got an invite to the party? hahaha

Yes.
04-13-2017 01:40 PM
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colohank Offline
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Post: #70
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-12-2017 03:19 PM)58-56 Wrote:  As a resident of Alabama, let me say:

Thank God for North Carolina.

As a resident of Alabama, you'd better hope that Tommy Tuberville isn't your next governor.
04-13-2017 02:02 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #71
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 11:29 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 11:08 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 09:01 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  This is not likely to happen but what if a few other states do pass similar "bathroom" laws. They would also become off limits to ncaa events and presumably, conference events too. Kansas, Texas and whatever other states that are contemplating these sorts of laws would have to join with each other and NC to organize a new semi-national athletic association. Weird.

While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment. They continue to deny how the entire world has entirely changed regarding LGBT rights within the last 5 to 10 years... and it's never changing back. It's similar to racial segregation, where it went from being reluctantly tolerated outside of the South in 1960 to how they were universally rejected everywhere by 1965, yet a group of hardcore bigots continued to deny progress for several years (e.g. George Wallace's presidential runs).

If a manager in our company decided to apply a rule like HB2 in one of our offices, he/she would be fired for discrimination. Our clients (many of which are larger than we are... and we're one of the 50 largest companies in the world) would also EXPECT us to do that, as well. They do not want to work with discriminatory organizations. Once again, these aren't left wing organizations that we're talking about here (and some are actually well-known targets of liberals). These are places that want the best and brightest educated talent... and the best and brightest educated talent today UNIVERSALLY rejects discrimination against the LGBT community.

And yes, I will continue to use the word bigot. If that bothers people, then so be it. The world is finally waking up that such bigotry has been in place for far too long and it has no place in society. I have such a visceral reaction to these types of bills and stories because sports (as much as I love them) are trivial diversions compared to this type of bigotry. If it's not me calling out such bigotry, then it will be those much more important in people's lives, such as their children, grandchildren, and essentially every educated person under the age of 30. Places like the North Carolina legislature can have their last stands on this issue, but from a general societal perspective, it's as settled of an issue as racial segregation was by 1965.

1. Wallace wasn't a bigot. Wallace was an opportunist and demagogue who was elected at the end of his career with the African American vote.

2. Enforcement of laws of equal access is a viable position.

3. Forcing a vision of morality on a free society is not. At the very point people are not free to shape their lives and associations by their personal understanding freedom dies. If they abide by the laws there should be no crisis. If they don't then they break the law. But, the forcing of associations crosses the line of what any free government can impose and at that point you become other (fascist comes to mind).

4. Note Bison's response of forcing the law with pitchforks. Note your own implication that anyone who disagrees with you is somehow uneducated. The greatest ally in the defeat of bigotry is the loss of fear of the object of your bigotry. Forcing the fearful to do anything only reinforces their world view. Going to school with, working with, living in neighborhoods with other kinds of people are ways in which through daily discovery you find that others are not so different from yourself. But labeling, and trying to intimidate people into accepting a position only brings about an equally willful defiance.

5. What I take exception to here is your attitude that shouting your position loudly enough is going to produce the effect you desire. It will not. Displaying your tolerance will beget tolerance, your patience will beget patience, and in the case of bigotry familiarity does not breed contempt, but rather understanding. My objection here is not toward the goals you set forth but the manner in which you seek to reach them. It is boorish, counterproductive, and almost as ignorant as the other position. Why ignorant? Because allowing a passion to overcome reason and compassion is just as destructive as bigotry.

Now young man with promise, put that in your pouch and smoke it over from time to time and you and your children might be able to avoid unnecessary violence and angst. Faith in the goodness that can be reached in others always produces longer lasting and better long term results than vilifying them. Dr. King knew this and practiced it even at the cost of his life, but the resultant shame and horror at the results of extremists turned the South against a century old evil. In the end it accomplished more than 4 years of civil war.

The tactics that you and others have employed in your argumentation labels and vilifies. Brother that is right out of Joseph Goebbels play book. I then read Bison's post and all I image are the brown shirts coming in the night for those the state labels as offenders. Remember it is just as evil when it comes from the left as when it comes from the right. If in your pursuit of what you believe to be justice you become what you abhor, at least in practice, was your methodology effective and worth it, or destructive of your ultimate aims and the catalyst for the loss of your soul?

I'm tired of hearing a nation that should be in constant debate as to what is right four our society taking polarized positions where all conversation ceases and battle lines are drawn. It is only a recipe for disaster.

JRsec - I respect your opinions quite a bit on this board.

However, this notion that people need to somehow be tolerant of intolerance is simply trying to find an excuse for discriminators to justify their bigotry.

During my freshman year of college in 1996, I lived next door to a transgender female and a gay male. As a sheltered kid from the Chicago suburbs, I thought this was insane and literally scary when I moved into my dorm. However, after about a week, I realized how much of an ignorant (funny that you apply that word liberally in your own response) idiot I had been towards LGBT people for my entire life up until that point. Unfortunately, I saw some of the most vile and awful discrimination that I have ever seen in any context against them and other LGBT people on campus... and mind you that Illinois was even then considered to be an extremely liberal university. So, no, I don't have any sympathy for the "You need to tolerate my intolerance!" argument. The intolerant people ruled the world with reckless abandon up until 5 years ago and now they're suddenly whining that they're being "forced" to change. I have zero sympathy. None. Nada. The people whining now are the ones that forced everyone else to change to their viewpoint for decades. The hateful discrimination that I saw against LGBT people with my own eyes has absolutely no justification and it's not merely "an issue of disagreement". It's bigotry and it has no place in this world. Period.

And Frank I am old enough to have witnessed a King march, old enough to remember the riots in Pontiac and Boston against bussing, old enough to still feel viscerally about the Viet Nam war and the pain on both sides of that and I've been lucky enough to know the Carters and Desmond Tutu and was a freshman decades before you when the hatred toward the LG's was much worse even before the B&T were even added to the lexicon. I'm afraid that you are confusing people's personal moral viewpoints from actual hatred shown toward the LGBT community.

I seriously doubt after 25 years of dealing with the public in an official capacity and another 20 in business that you will find many people in North Carolina who would perpetrate hateful acts and crimes against the LGBT community. That is however fundamentally different from saying that they accept any of those lifestyles as being something they could identify or socialize with, and I carefully say lifestyles because of the massive complexity in genetics and more scientific classifications that might totally blow the minds of some of the masses. When lawmakers get involved it is silly. Equal application of law and equal access are the main points here and I would not debate them. But a stance against people who simply would not accept that biological classification or lifestyle as being something they personally would support is their choice, and they have a right to that choice as long as they do not persecute, denigrate, abuse, or perpetrate a crime against those who are, or do embrace that biology or lifestyle. Tolerance is accepting that others might have a lifestyle or genetic makeup different from your own and granting to them the same access and rights that you would expect. To group those people with the socially compromised that would perpetrate hateful acts or crimes against those who are different is just plain wrong. It is in and of itself an act of intolerance. There is much intolerance on both sides of this issue, but there are reasonable people who may not like one side's viewpoint or the others, but do not label and abuse the other side, but simply acknowledge the differences and grant the rights to the other side that they would expect for themselves.

Now I'm more of a libertarian than I am anything else. As long as government stays out of the lives of the citizens as much as possible and people are gracious enough to let others live their lives as they see fit so long as it doesn't result in criminal behavior, I'm fine. But my point here is that when you cut off dialogue you polarize many on either side of an issue that otherwise would have simply agreed to disagree, but would have equally supported the rights of each other in spite of that disagreement. When you do that Frank, you only grow the numbers of radicals on either side of an issue. We are a Republic for a reason. Republics support the dialogue that must take place between the pluralistic issues that confront us all and it operates in a kind of bargaining of stances that maximizes the acceptability of a law or decision.

The appropriate argument with regards to North Carolina doesn't need the voice of vox populi to be resolved. The Federal Government will resolve the issue. But to call out a State and label its people is folly. The bill even if it passed would be struck down by the courts. That's pretty much the end of the story. The level of vitriol on either side is merely the symptom of polarization that exists today. That is what concerns me! If we don't learn again what tolerance means, we are doomed as a society.

I've done community organizing work, pro bono work on behalf of the poor, counseled all manner of folks, and have taken stands against unjust rulings and bills in the past. I've been threatened on multiple occasions, labeled by liberals and by conservatives, stood against Democrats and Republicans, and in spite of all of that conflict I found wonderful folks on both sides of the spectrum with which I could concur on some things and remain in open opposition to them on others, all without labeling or hating them.

This issue needs time for the fear to subside on the part of some, law to stand in the interim, and most important no casualties on either side until the interim stands long enough for the fears to be assuaged and acceptance to be voluntary instead of forced.

But for the record, in spite of the many issues we face today and the zeal of millennials for social justice, there was significantly more tolerance in the 70's than there is now, not in laws, but in practice. It's odd to me now that we have the laws that would guarantee equal access and equal rights we have far less tolerance.

I had a much easier time discussing all sides of an issue with all parties 30 years ago than I do today. Why? Today we can't get past the emotions long enough to hear one another.

I also find your generation to be woefully under-informed about your own local histories. Skokie Illinois was/is the home of the Amercian Nazi party. Sault Ste Marie Michigan was a place where the practice of not employing Native Americans was once so terrible that some Southern women I knew worked on behalf of the reservations while their husbands were stationed in the area. In Oscoda Micighan there was a curfew in the 60's against African Americans being within the city limits. Pontiac and Boston I've already referenced. Why do I reference these? Because I've been to 47 of the 48 contiguous states and have lived in more than a handful. Prejudice and bigotry have been in each. People pick their prejudices. They do so to either feel important or because they have an unrealistic fear of the object of their prejudice. But on a hopeful note I'll tell you where I have seldom found prejudice, in retirement homes. Old folks have usually lived long enough to realize that all of it is merely a form of self delusion. Now they value what another person believes and does. They find in old age that they have much more in common and that gives them a sense of peace when they no longer have the energy to hate.

I hope we can all live long enough to find that commonality, but none of us will if we don't work together. It's not that our individual lives depend on it, but that our nation depends upon it. In spite of our differences we are still one of the best places to live on earth! But, from my vantage point in chronology that is threatened today as it has never been in the past. Keep that in mind as you grow older. JR
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2017 03:49 PM by JRsec.)
04-13-2017 03:40 PM
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Rabonchild Offline
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Post: #72
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
I hope NCSU and UNC leave the ACC and South Carolina votes for NCSU to join the SEC and blokes UNC.
04-13-2017 04:22 PM
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58-56 Offline
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Post: #73
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 02:02 PM)colohank Wrote:  
(04-12-2017 03:19 PM)58-56 Wrote:  As a resident of Alabama, let me say:

Thank God for North Carolina.

As a resident of Alabama, you'd better hope that Tommy Tuberville isn't your next governor.

Not to downplay your scorn for Tuberville's competence, but his would-be opponents are all likely even worse. At least two of them are can't-feed-or-dress-themselves insane and another spends much of each day comatose in an alcoholic stupor. And the electorate deserves them. Bentley, the just-ejected geriatric breast addict, left office with a 44 percent approval rating.
04-13-2017 05:17 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #74
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 05:17 PM)58-56 Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 02:02 PM)colohank Wrote:  
(04-12-2017 03:19 PM)58-56 Wrote:  As a resident of Alabama, let me say:

Thank God for North Carolina.

As a resident of Alabama, you'd better hope that Tommy Tuberville isn't your next governor.

Not to downplay your scorn for Tuberville's competence, but his would-be opponents are all likely even worse. At least two of them are can't-feed-or-dress-themselves insane and another spends much of each day comatose in an alcoholic stupor. And the electorate deserves them. Bentley, the just-ejected geriatric breast addict, left office with a 44 percent approval rating.

Face it! The Devil is now laughing at us with the candidates he turns loose in both parties! This is what happens when vetting occurs (or as the Mafia calls it "Being a Made Man (or Woman)". You don't run unless those in control have enough dirt on you to politically kill you if you cross them. So we have an endless parade of whacko personalities moving to the front of the line because great candidates aren't going to put up with what they, and their families have to go through.
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2017 05:42 PM by JRsec.)
04-13-2017 05:36 PM
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bullet Offline
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Post: #75
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 03:40 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 11:29 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 11:08 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 09:01 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  This is not likely to happen but what if a few other states do pass similar "bathroom" laws. They would also become off limits to ncaa events and presumably, conference events too. Kansas, Texas and whatever other states that are contemplating these sorts of laws would have to join with each other and NC to organize a new semi-national athletic association. Weird.

While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment. They continue to deny how the entire world has entirely changed regarding LGBT rights within the last 5 to 10 years... and it's never changing back. It's similar to racial segregation, where it went from being reluctantly tolerated outside of the South in 1960 to how they were universally rejected everywhere by 1965, yet a group of hardcore bigots continued to deny progress for several years (e.g. George Wallace's presidential runs).

If a manager in our company decided to apply a rule like HB2 in one of our offices, he/she would be fired for discrimination. Our clients (many of which are larger than we are... and we're one of the 50 largest companies in the world) would also EXPECT us to do that, as well. They do not want to work with discriminatory organizations. Once again, these aren't left wing organizations that we're talking about here (and some are actually well-known targets of liberals). These are places that want the best and brightest educated talent... and the best and brightest educated talent today UNIVERSALLY rejects discrimination against the LGBT community.

And yes, I will continue to use the word bigot. If that bothers people, then so be it. The world is finally waking up that such bigotry has been in place for far too long and it has no place in society. I have such a visceral reaction to these types of bills and stories because sports (as much as I love them) are trivial diversions compared to this type of bigotry. If it's not me calling out such bigotry, then it will be those much more important in people's lives, such as their children, grandchildren, and essentially every educated person under the age of 30. Places like the North Carolina legislature can have their last stands on this issue, but from a general societal perspective, it's as settled of an issue as racial segregation was by 1965.

1. Wallace wasn't a bigot. Wallace was an opportunist and demagogue who was elected at the end of his career with the African American vote.

2. Enforcement of laws of equal access is a viable position.

3. Forcing a vision of morality on a free society is not. At the very point people are not free to shape their lives and associations by their personal understanding freedom dies. If they abide by the laws there should be no crisis. If they don't then they break the law. But, the forcing of associations crosses the line of what any free government can impose and at that point you become other (fascist comes to mind).

4. Note Bison's response of forcing the law with pitchforks. Note your own implication that anyone who disagrees with you is somehow uneducated. The greatest ally in the defeat of bigotry is the loss of fear of the object of your bigotry. Forcing the fearful to do anything only reinforces their world view. Going to school with, working with, living in neighborhoods with other kinds of people are ways in which through daily discovery you find that others are not so different from yourself. But labeling, and trying to intimidate people into accepting a position only brings about an equally willful defiance.

5. What I take exception to here is your attitude that shouting your position loudly enough is going to produce the effect you desire. It will not. Displaying your tolerance will beget tolerance, your patience will beget patience, and in the case of bigotry familiarity does not breed contempt, but rather understanding. My objection here is not toward the goals you set forth but the manner in which you seek to reach them. It is boorish, counterproductive, and almost as ignorant as the other position. Why ignorant? Because allowing a passion to overcome reason and compassion is just as destructive as bigotry.

Now young man with promise, put that in your pouch and smoke it over from time to time and you and your children might be able to avoid unnecessary violence and angst. Faith in the goodness that can be reached in others always produces longer lasting and better long term results than vilifying them. Dr. King knew this and practiced it even at the cost of his life, but the resultant shame and horror at the results of extremists turned the South against a century old evil. In the end it accomplished more than 4 years of civil war.

The tactics that you and others have employed in your argumentation labels and vilifies. Brother that is right out of Joseph Goebbels play book. I then read Bison's post and all I image are the brown shirts coming in the night for those the state labels as offenders. Remember it is just as evil when it comes from the left as when it comes from the right. If in your pursuit of what you believe to be justice you become what you abhor, at least in practice, was your methodology effective and worth it, or destructive of your ultimate aims and the catalyst for the loss of your soul?

I'm tired of hearing a nation that should be in constant debate as to what is right four our society taking polarized positions where all conversation ceases and battle lines are drawn. It is only a recipe for disaster.

JRsec - I respect your opinions quite a bit on this board.

However, this notion that people need to somehow be tolerant of intolerance is simply trying to find an excuse for discriminators to justify their bigotry.

During my freshman year of college in 1996, I lived next door to a transgender female and a gay male. As a sheltered kid from the Chicago suburbs, I thought this was insane and literally scary when I moved into my dorm. However, after about a week, I realized how much of an ignorant (funny that you apply that word liberally in your own response) idiot I had been towards LGBT people for my entire life up until that point. Unfortunately, I saw some of the most vile and awful discrimination that I have ever seen in any context against them and other LGBT people on campus... and mind you that Illinois was even then considered to be an extremely liberal university. So, no, I don't have any sympathy for the "You need to tolerate my intolerance!" argument. The intolerant people ruled the world with reckless abandon up until 5 years ago and now they're suddenly whining that they're being "forced" to change. I have zero sympathy. None. Nada. The people whining now are the ones that forced everyone else to change to their viewpoint for decades. The hateful discrimination that I saw against LGBT people with my own eyes has absolutely no justification and it's not merely "an issue of disagreement". It's bigotry and it has no place in this world. Period.

And Frank I am old enough to have witnessed a King march, old enough to remember the riots in Pontiac and Boston against bussing, old enough to still feel viscerally about the Viet Nam war and the pain on both sides of that and I've been lucky enough to know the Carters and Desmond Tutu and was a freshman decades before you when the hatred toward the LG's was much worse even before the B&T were even added to the lexicon. I'm afraid that you are confusing people's personal moral viewpoints from actual hatred shown toward the LGBT community.

I seriously doubt after 25 years of dealing with the public in an official capacity and another 20 in business that you will find many people in North Carolina who would perpetrate hateful acts and crimes against the LGBT community. That is however fundamentally different from saying that they accept any of those lifestyles as being something they could identify or socialize with, and I carefully say lifestyles because of the massive complexity in genetics and more scientific classifications that might totally blow the minds of some of the masses. When lawmakers get involved it is silly. Equal application of law and equal access are the main points here and I would not debate them. But a stance against people who simply would not accept that biological classification or lifestyle as being something they personally would support is their choice, and they have a right to that choice as long as they do not persecute, denigrate, abuse, or perpetrate a crime against those who are, or do embrace that biology or lifestyle. Tolerance is accepting that others might have a lifestyle or genetic makeup different from your own and granting to them the same access and rights that you would expect. To group those people with the socially compromised that would perpetrate hateful acts or crimes against those who are different is just plain wrong. It is in and of itself an act of intolerance. There is much intolerance on both sides of this issue, but there are reasonable people who may not like one side's viewpoint or the others, but do not label and abuse the other side, but simply acknowledge the differences and grant the rights to the other side that they would expect for themselves.

Now I'm more of a libertarian than I am anything else. As long as government stays out of the lives of the citizens as much as possible and people are gracious enough to let others live their lives as they see fit so long as it doesn't result in criminal behavior, I'm fine. But my point here is that when you cut off dialogue you polarize many on either side of an issue that otherwise would have simply agreed to disagree, but would have equally supported the rights of each other in spite of that disagreement. When you do that Frank, you only grow the numbers of radicals on either side of an issue. We are a Republic for a reason. Republics support the dialogue that must take place between the pluralistic issues that confront us all and it operates in a kind of bargaining of stances that maximizes the acceptability of a law or decision.

The appropriate argument with regards to North Carolina doesn't need the voice of vox populi to be resolved. The Federal Government will resolve the issue. But to call out a State and label its people is folly. The bill even if it passed would be struck down by the courts. That's pretty much the end of the story. The level of vitriol on either side is merely the symptom of polarization that exists today. That is what concerns me! If we don't learn again what tolerance means, we are doomed as a society.

I've done community organizing work, pro bono work on behalf of the poor, counseled all manner of folks, and have taken stands against unjust rulings and bills in the past. I've been threatened on multiple occasions, labeled by liberals and by conservatives, stood against Democrats and Republicans, and in spite of all of that conflict I found wonderful folks on both sides of the spectrum with which I could concur on some things and remain in open opposition to them on others, all without labeling or hating them.

This issue needs time for the fear to subside on the part of some, law to stand in the interim, and most important no casualties on either side until the interim stands long enough for the fears to be assuaged and acceptance to be voluntary instead of forced.

But for the record, in spite of the many issues we face today and the zeal of millennials for social justice, there was significantly more tolerance in the 70's than there is now, not in laws, but in practice. It's odd to me now that we have the laws that would guarantee equal access and equal rights we have far less tolerance.

I had a much easier time discussing all sides of an issue with all parties 30 years ago than I do today. Why? Today we can't get past the emotions long enough to hear one another.

I also find your generation to be woefully under-informed about your own local histories. Skokie Illinois was/is the home of the Amercian Nazi party. Sault Ste Marie Michigan was a place where the practice of not employing Native Americans was once so terrible that some Southern women I knew worked on behalf of the reservations while their husbands were stationed in the area. In Oscoda Micighan there was a curfew in the 60's against African Americans being within the city limits. Pontiac and Boston I've already referenced. Why do I reference these? Because I've been to 47 of the 48 contiguous states and have lived in more than a handful. Prejudice and bigotry have been in each. People pick their prejudices. They do so to either feel important or because they have an unrealistic fear of the object of their prejudice. But on a hopeful note I'll tell you where I have seldom found prejudice, in retirement homes. Old folks have usually lived long enough to realize that all of it is merely a form of self delusion. Now they value what another person believes and does. They find in old age that they have much more in common and that gives them a sense of peace when they no longer have the energy to hate.

I hope we can all live long enough to find that commonality, but none of us will if we don't work together. It's not that our individual lives depend on it, but that our nation depends upon it. In spite of our differences we are still one of the best places to live on earth! But, from my vantage point in chronology that is threatened today as it has never been in the past. Keep that in mind as you grow older. JR

Well said. One should consider that people in the past would consider us pretty vulgar and immoral. Standards change and not always in the same direction. Frank is right that the attitudes towards gays has changed dramatically in the last 10 years. Hollywood has made an effort to portray gays as human beings and not stereotypes and it has made a difference. Also "coming out" has made them more of a person instead of an "other."

Another way standards have changed is people talking past each other instead of to each other. Abortion is the perfect example. Almost everyone thinks a woman should be able to control her own body. Almost everyone thinks murder is wrong. And yet those are the things the two sides throw out claiming the other side is opposed.

You can think marriage should be between a man and a woman for tradition and for the health of society while still thinking there should have been a resolution for what were real issues like health benefits and parenting rights (that could be resolved by other methods).

You can think men shouldn't be in restrooms with women or women with men. Or that we shouldn't leave open an outlet for predators who take advantage of every opportunity (which is why so many gravitate to children's groups at churches and in other organizations).

You can think discrimination on a private matter like sexual orientation is wrong without believing that employment laws that will force businesses to pry into people's personal lives and generate lots more money for lawyers is the best way to deal with it. Frank is wrong in claiming that gays are a "protected class." The various city ordinances that are triggering these state laws are trying to create a new protected class. The state laws are a reaction to the over-reach by the cities.

None of that makes you a bigot. Calling names is the way to avoid actually discussing issues. There was an article talking about the way bigot has been degraded by its casual use. The article said it now meant, "I hate you and don't want to hear what you have to say."
04-13-2017 07:48 PM
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bullet Offline
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Post: #76
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 05:36 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 05:17 PM)58-56 Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 02:02 PM)colohank Wrote:  
(04-12-2017 03:19 PM)58-56 Wrote:  As a resident of Alabama, let me say:

Thank God for North Carolina.

As a resident of Alabama, you'd better hope that Tommy Tuberville isn't your next governor.

Not to downplay your scorn for Tuberville's competence, but his would-be opponents are all likely even worse. At least two of them are can't-feed-or-dress-themselves insane and another spends much of each day comatose in an alcoholic stupor. And the electorate deserves them. Bentley, the just-ejected geriatric breast addict, left office with a 44 percent approval rating.

Face it! The Devil is now laughing at us with the candidates he turns loose in both parties! This is what happens when vetting occurs (or as the Mafia calls it "Being a Made Man (or Woman)". You don't run unless those in control have enough dirt on you to politically kill you if you cross them. So we have an endless parade of whacko personalities moving to the front of the line because great candidates aren't going to put up with what they, and their families have to go through.

Could you actually imagine wanting to be President, Governor or Senator with what people have to go through? Normal people generally will stay far away.
04-13-2017 07:50 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #77
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
This bill died today:

There are strong constitutional concerns with this legislation given that the U.S. Supreme Court has firmly ruled on the issue, therefore House Bill 780 will be referred to the House Rules Committee and will not be heard,” Moore, the House speaker, said in a statement.

No joke, GOP NC legislators, no damn joke.
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2017 08:03 PM by TerryD.)
04-13-2017 08:03 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #78
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 08:03 PM)TerryD Wrote:  This bill died today:

There are strong constitutional concerns with this legislation given that the U.S. Supreme Court has firmly ruled on the issue, therefore House Bill 780 will be referred to the House Rules Committee and will not be heard,” Moore, the House speaker, said in a statement.

No joke, GOP NC legislators, no damn joke.

It should never have been an issue. But there will be a lingering to the threat. There are some ideas you can't unsay.
04-13-2017 08:18 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #79
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 05:17 PM)58-56 Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 02:02 PM)colohank Wrote:  
(04-12-2017 03:19 PM)58-56 Wrote:  As a resident of Alabama, let me say:

Thank God for North Carolina.

As a resident of Alabama, you'd better hope that Tommy Tuberville isn't your next governor.

Not to downplay your scorn for Tuberville's competence, but his would-be opponents are all likely even worse. At least two of them are can't-feed-or-dress-themselves insane and another spends much of each day comatose in an alcoholic stupor. And the electorate deserves them. Bentley, the just-ejected geriatric breast addict, left office with a 44 percent approval rating.

I think Ambrosia Starling is probably the best candidate of the bunch. LOL. No one can argue that she can't dress herself. And she's certainly not afraid. http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2016/05...roy_m.html If Roy Moore is to be the GOP nominee for Gov in 2018, I think Miss Starling would be an epic opponent to him. It certainly would be entertaining. And she'd pull no punches...
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2017 09:29 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
04-13-2017 08:51 PM
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nzmorange Offline
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Post: #80
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 08:18 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 08:03 PM)TerryD Wrote:  This bill died today:

There are strong constitutional concerns with this legislation given that the U.S. Supreme Court has firmly ruled on the issue, therefore House Bill 780 will be referred to the House Rules Committee and will not be heard,” Moore, the House speaker, said in a statement.

No joke, GOP NC legislators, no damn joke.

It should never have been an issue. But there will be a lingering to the threat. There are some ideas you can't unsay.

The "threat" came from the state (vs. the university), it was generally unenforceable (universities can move significantly faster than state legislatures - and the wording had massive loopholes in it), it didn't make it through committee, and it would have had at least a ~20 year delay.

I get that there are times when the toothpaste is out of the tube, but I have an extremely hard time thinking that this has any significance. This proposed bill was nothing more than empty grandstanding.
04-14-2017 01:41 AM
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