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UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
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goodknightfl Offline
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Post: #41
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
More off season nonsense
04-13-2017 09:03 AM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #42
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 09:01 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  This is not likely to happen but what if a few other states do pass similar "bathroom" laws. They would also become off limits to ncaa events and presumably, conference events too. Kansas, Texas and whatever other states that are contemplating these sorts of laws would have to join with each other and NC to organize a new semi-national athletic association. Weird.

Texas has been working on one of these bills. I'm not sure why some Houston posters on here are so confident it won't pass. I suspect it will. Oh the horror! No Texhoma PAC 16 for Larry Scott now!
04-13-2017 09:23 AM
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murrdcu Offline
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Post: #43
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 09:23 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 09:01 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  This is not likely to happen but what if a few other states do pass similar "bathroom" laws. They would also become off limits to ncaa events and presumably, conference events too. Kansas, Texas and whatever other states that are contemplating these sorts of laws would have to join with each other and NC to organize a new semi-national athletic association. Weird.

Texas has been working on one of these bills. I'm not sure why some Houston posters on here are so confident it won't pass. I suspect it will. Oh the horror! No Texhoma PAC 16 for Larry Scott now!

Well, Houston just had an openly lesbian major. Texas is a conservative state, but there is some strong liberal support too.
04-13-2017 09:44 AM
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58-56 Offline
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Post: #44
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 08:47 AM)OwlFamily Wrote:  Dear ACC,

FAU and FIU stand ready to bring more Florida teams to your conference should the Carolina's leave so that the UM and FSU will have easy in state games to help increase the exposure of the conference. Please call at your earliest convenience.

Sincerly

FAU and FIU

P.S. I can dream right?

I fully support this idea.
04-13-2017 09:49 AM
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RutgersGuy Offline
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Post: #45
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 08:55 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  I want this to happen so badly! North Carilina and NC ST leaving the ACC would be the funniest thing to happen since the last ACC raid of the Big Least. My bad, the first ACC Big least raid. There's been 3: VD, Da U, BC. Then sPitt, Cuse. Then ND, Ville. Great moments in sports. I mean politics. I mean business. Right, sports.

Still bitter you never got an invite to the party? hahaha
04-13-2017 10:06 AM
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MinerInWisconsin Offline
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Post: #46
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 09:44 AM)murrdcu Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 09:23 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 09:01 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  This is not likely to happen but what if a few other states do pass similar "bathroom" laws. They would also become off limits to ncaa events and presumably, conference events too. Kansas, Texas and whatever other states that are contemplating these sorts of laws would have to join with each other and NC to organize a new semi-national athletic association. Weird.

Texas has been working on one of these bills. I'm not sure why some Houston posters on here are so confident it won't pass. I suspect it will. Oh the horror! No Texhoma PAC 16 for Larry Scott now!

Well, Houston just had an openly lesbian major. Texas is a conservative state, but there is some strong liberal support too.

True but didn't Houston repeal a law that protected gays in the last year or so? Against the mayor's wishes? Houston fans can verify or correct this.
04-13-2017 10:07 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #47
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 09:01 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  This is not likely to happen but what if a few other states do pass similar "bathroom" laws. They would also become off limits to ncaa events and presumably, conference events too. Kansas, Texas and whatever other states that are contemplating these sorts of laws would have to join with each other and NC to organize a new semi-national athletic association. Weird.

While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment. They continue to deny how the entire world has entirely changed regarding LGBT rights within the last 5 to 10 years... and it's never changing back. It's similar to racial segregation, where it went from being reluctantly tolerated outside of the South in 1960 to how they were universally rejected everywhere by 1965, yet a group of hardcore bigots continued to deny progress for several years (e.g. George Wallace's presidential runs).

If a manager in our company decided to apply a rule like HB2 in one of our offices, he/she would be fired for discrimination. Our clients (many of which are larger than we are... and we're one of the 50 largest companies in the world) would also EXPECT us to do that, as well. They do not want to work with discriminatory organizations. Once again, these aren't left wing organizations that we're talking about here (and some are actually well-known targets of liberals). These are places that want the best and brightest educated talent... and the best and brightest educated talent today UNIVERSALLY rejects discrimination against the LGBT community.

And yes, I will continue to use the word bigot. If that bothers people, then so be it. The world is finally waking up that such bigotry has been in place for far too long and it has no place in society. I have such a visceral reaction to these types of bills and stories because sports (as much as I love them) are trivial diversions compared to this type of bigotry. If it's not me calling out such bigotry, then it will be those much more important in people's lives, such as their children, grandchildren, and essentially every educated person under the age of 30. Places like the North Carolina legislature can have their last stands on this issue, but from a general societal perspective, it's as settled of an issue as racial segregation was by 1965.
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2017 10:28 AM by Frank the Tank.)
04-13-2017 10:27 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #48
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment.

Is it really the last stand, though??

Here's the damned problem: non-bigots live too close together. Basically, because 15 bigots live off in the middle of nowhere, they get to elect a bigot representative who gets the same vote in the state senate as a rep for a million non-bigots.

Combine that with gerrymandered districts, and you have a bunch of states that vote around 50-50 for governor, but whose state legislatures are between 60-40 and 70-30 skewed.


This won't change until the people take control and end this farce/fraud. Pitchforks in hand.

VOTES are the only thing that matters, not land area!
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2017 10:33 AM by MplsBison.)
04-13-2017 10:32 AM
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bluesox Offline
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Post: #49
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
If you label somebody a bigot because they disagree with an issue, I don't see where the line gets drawn. It's a good proproganda tool though. I will go back plural marriage, why isn't it bigoted to be against that?
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2017 10:47 AM by bluesox.)
04-13-2017 10:45 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #50
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 10:32 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment.

Is it really the last stand, though??

Here's the damned problem: non-bigots live too close together. Basically, because 15 bigots live off in the middle of nowhere, they get to elect a bigot representative who gets the same vote in the state senate as a rep for a million non-bigots.

Combine that with gerrymandered districts, and you have a bunch of states that vote around 50-50 for governor, but whose state legislatures are between 60-40 and 70-30 skewed.


This won't change until the people take control and end this farce/fraud. Pitchforks in hand.

VOTES are the only thing that matters, not land area!

Maybe it's my naivete, but I do think it's the last stand on at least the LGBT rights issue. The societal attitudes in the past 10 years (and even just the past 5 years) is one of the most dramatic changes on a social issue of anything in modern history (really only comparable to the sea change in views on racial segregation in the 1960 to 1965 period). The pro-choice/pro-life split on abortion, for example, has remained virtually unchanged since the mid-1970s. In contrast, support for marriage equality was non-existent in the 1990s and was still a small minority in 2005 (with even California passing a proposition against gay marriage in 2008), but then rapidly became the majority position within the decade and it continues grow swiftly. Part of this is simply that support for LGBT rights is one of the few issues that is *directly* correlated with age. Believe it or not, this is actually very rare among political issues. Using abortion again as an example, there is no statistically significant difference between pro-choice/pro-life support based on age. In contrast, the younger you are, the likelihood that you support LGBT rights goes up dramatically. Essentially, the anti-LGBT people are eventually going to either retire or die off.

Note that we're seeing this debate in North Carolina, which actually rapidly went from a solid red state to a purple state during the past 15 years (essentially a few years behind the political trajectory of Virginia). It's interesting to see the "last stand" occur in place like North Carolina instead of a much more conservative state like Mississippi. It's similar to Arizona's hard core approach to immigration over the past decade despite being much less of a socially conservative state compared to the Deep South or even some of its Interior West counterparts, where the old guard that had been in power for so long has essentially been scrambling to pass every wacky law that they can since they know it's going to be completely different sooner rather than later. The fact that North Carolina legislators even felt the need to pass a bill like HB2 in the first place was actually an indicator that the state's political composition is moving completely away from them and the remnants of the old Bible Belt guard wanted the legislative equivalent of Custer's last stand.
04-13-2017 10:57 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #51
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 10:45 AM)bluesox Wrote:  I don't see where the line gets drawn
...
why isn't it bigoted to be against that?

To an alien in space, having a rule against murder might seem arbitrary.

But that is the entire point of society. That's why it comes down to a popular vote. The majority always gets to decide what is right. If you don't like what they decide, then leave the society.
04-13-2017 10:57 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #52
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 10:57 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  Maybe it's my naivete, but I do think it's the last stand on at least the LGBT rights issue. The societal attitudes in the past 10 years (and even just the past 5 years) is one of the most dramatic changes on a social issue of anything in modern history (really only comparable to the sea change in views on racial segregation in the 1960 to 1965 period). The pro-choice/pro-life split on abortion, for example, has remained virtually unchanged since the mid-1970s. In contrast, support for marriage equality was non-existent in the 1990s and was still a small minority in 2005 (with even California passing a proposition against gay marriage in 2008), but then rapidly became the majority position within the decade and it continues grow swiftly. Part of this is simply that support for LGBT rights is one of the few issues that is *directly* correlated with age. Believe it or not, this is actually very rare among political issues. Using abortion again as an example, there is no statistically significant difference between pro-choice/pro-life support based on age. In contrast, the younger you are, the likelihood that you support LGBT rights goes up dramatically. Essentially, the anti-LGBT people are eventually going to either retire or die off.

Note that we're seeing this debate in North Carolina, which actually rapidly went from a solid red state to a purple state during the past 15 years (essentially a few years behind the political trajectory of Virginia). It's interesting to see the "last stand" occur in place like North Carolina instead of a much more conservative state like Mississippi. It's similar to Arizona's hard core approach to immigration over the past decade despite being much less of a socially conservative state compared to the Deep South or even some of its Interior West counterparts, where the old guard that had been in power for so long has essentially been scrambling to pass every wacky law that they can since they know it's going to be completely different sooner rather than later. The fact that North Carolina legislators even felt the need to pass a bill like HB2 in the first place was actually an indicator that the state's political composition is moving completely away from them and the remnants of the old Bible Belt guard wanted the legislative equivalent of Custer's last stand.

This is a very thoughtful, and very, very hopeful analysis -- at least when you specify LGBTQ issues and North Carolina.

I'd like to believe that the old will eventually become overwhelmed ... but I also don't put it past them to go nuclear/scorched earth in some way that we can't see yet.

You're right, that didn't happen during racial desegregation. But then again, the two biggest motivators bar none are anger and desperation.
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2017 11:02 AM by MplsBison.)
04-13-2017 11:01 AM
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58-56 Offline
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Post: #53
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment. They continue to deny how the entire world has entirely changed regarding LGBT rights within the last 5 to 10 years... and it's never changing back. It's similar to racial segregation, where it went from being reluctantly tolerated outside of the South in 1960 to how they were universally rejected everywhere by 1965, yet a group of hardcore bigots continued to deny progress for several years (e.g. George Wallace's presidential runs).

If a manager in our company decided to apply a rule like HB2 in one of our offices, he/she would be fired for discrimination. Our clients (many of which are larger than we are... and we're one of the 50 largest companies in the world) would also EXPECT us to do that, as well. They do not want to work with discriminatory organizations. Once again, these aren't left wing organizations that we're talking about here (and some are actually well-known targets of liberals). These are places that want the best and brightest educated talent... and the best and brightest educated talent today UNIVERSALLY rejects discrimination against the LGBT community.

And yes, I will continue to use the word bigot. If that bothers people, then so be it. The world is finally waking up that such bigotry has been in place for far too long and it has no place in society. I have such a visceral reaction to these types of bills and stories because sports (as much as I love them) are trivial diversions compared to this type of bigotry. If it's not me calling out such bigotry, then it will be those much more important in people's lives, such as their children, grandchildren, and essentially every educated person under the age of 30. Places like the North Carolina legislature can have their last stands on this issue, but from a general societal perspective, it's as settled of an issue as racial segregation was by 1965.

I don't doubt that what you describe in your world is true.

But I think you vastly underestimate the Power of Stupid in Alabama and its clones. They're going to try at some point to pass fresh Bigot Bills to "show ahr pahr" for the most part, and for cynical political reasons (should the GOP show lasting problems in Alabama over the Bentley-Boob-Grab, I can easily guarantee that the 2018 ballot will have some sort of "kill the gays/Messkins/Mooslams" constitutional amendment to turn out the bammers and the nasty old people).

1965 is not a completely valid historical analogy; it pre-dates Roe v. Wade and the resulting unholy alliance between the evangelicals and the racists. Sinclair Lewis had it right. All those folks who sat at home in 1965 waiting for the Kingdom of God are now mobilized to vote. They saw the power of the Black Church and decided they wanted some of that for their own selves.

As for racial segregation having died, well, as my friend Patterson Hood writes, "You don't see too many white kids lying bleeding on the street."
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2017 11:25 AM by 58-56.)
04-13-2017 11:04 AM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #54
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 10:57 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 10:32 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment.

Is it really the last stand, though??

Here's the damned problem: non-bigots live too close together. Basically, because 15 bigots live off in the middle of nowhere, they get to elect a bigot representative who gets the same vote in the state senate as a rep for a million non-bigots.

Combine that with gerrymandered districts, and you have a bunch of states that vote around 50-50 for governor, but whose state legislatures are between 60-40 and 70-30 skewed.


This won't change until the people take control and end this farce/fraud. Pitchforks in hand.

VOTES are the only thing that matters, not land area!

Maybe it's my naivete, but I do think it's the last stand on at least the LGBT rights issue. The societal attitudes in the past 10 years (and even just the past 5 years) is one of the most dramatic changes on a social issue of anything in modern history (really only comparable to the sea change in views on racial segregation in the 1960 to 1965 period). The pro-choice/pro-life split on abortion, for example, has remained virtually unchanged since the mid-1970s. In contrast, support for marriage equality was non-existent in the 1990s and was still a small minority in 2005 (with even California passing a proposition against gay marriage in 2008), but then rapidly became the majority position within the decade and it continues grow swiftly. Part of this is simply that support for LGBT rights is one of the few issues that is *directly* correlated with age. Believe it or not, this is actually very rare among political issues. Using abortion again as an example, there is no statistically significant difference between pro-choice/pro-life support based on age. In contrast, the younger you are, the likelihood that you support LGBT rights goes up dramatically. Essentially, the anti-LGBT people are eventually going to either retire or die off.

Note that we're seeing this debate in North Carolina, which actually rapidly went from a solid red state to a purple state during the past 15 years (essentially a few years behind the political trajectory of Virginia). It's interesting to see the "last stand" occur in place like North Carolina instead of a much more conservative state like Mississippi. It's similar to Arizona's hard core approach to immigration over the past decade despite being much less of a socially conservative state compared to the Deep South or even some of its Interior West counterparts, where the old guard that had been in power for so long has essentially been scrambling to pass every wacky law that they can since they know it's going to be completely different sooner rather than later. The fact that North Carolina legislators even felt the need to pass a bill like HB2 in the first place was actually an indicator that the state's political composition is moving completely away from them and the remnants of the old Bible Belt guard wanted the legislative equivalent of Custer's last stand.


Thanks be to God for that. I agree with pretty much everything you say in this thread.
04-13-2017 11:05 AM
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Post: #55
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 09:01 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  This is not likely to happen but what if a few other states do pass similar "bathroom" laws. They would also become off limits to ncaa events and presumably, conference events too. Kansas, Texas and whatever other states that are contemplating these sorts of laws would have to join with each other and NC to organize a new semi-national athletic association. Weird.

While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment. They continue to deny how the entire world has entirely changed regarding LGBT rights within the last 5 to 10 years... and it's never changing back. It's similar to racial segregation, where it went from being reluctantly tolerated outside of the South in 1960 to how they were universally rejected everywhere by 1965, yet a group of hardcore bigots continued to deny progress for several years (e.g. George Wallace's presidential runs).

If a manager in our company decided to apply a rule like HB2 in one of our offices, he/she would be fired for discrimination. Our clients (many of which are larger than we are... and we're one of the 50 largest companies in the world) would also EXPECT us to do that, as well. They do not want to work with discriminatory organizations. Once again, these aren't left wing organizations that we're talking about here (and some are actually well-known targets of liberals). These are places that want the best and brightest educated talent... and the best and brightest educated talent today UNIVERSALLY rejects discrimination against the LGBT community.

And yes, I will continue to use the word bigot. If that bothers people, then so be it. The world is finally waking up that such bigotry has been in place for far too long and it has no place in society. I have such a visceral reaction to these types of bills and stories because sports (as much as I love them) are trivial diversions compared to this type of bigotry. If it's not me calling out such bigotry, then it will be those much more important in people's lives, such as their children, grandchildren, and essentially every educated person under the age of 30. Places like the North Carolina legislature can have their last stands on this issue, but from a general societal perspective, it's as settled of an issue as racial segregation was by 1965.

1. Wallace wasn't a bigot. Wallace was an opportunist and demagogue who was elected at the end of his career with the African American vote.

2. Enforcement of laws of equal access is a viable position.

3. Forcing a vision of morality on a free society is not. At the very point people are not free to shape their lives and associations by their personal understanding freedom dies. If they abide by the laws there should be no crisis. If they don't then they break the law. But, the forcing of associations crosses the line of what any free government can impose and at that point you become other (fascist comes to mind).

4. Note Bison's response of forcing the law with pitchforks. Note your own implication that anyone who disagrees with you is somehow uneducated. The greatest ally in the defeat of bigotry is the loss of fear of the object of your bigotry. Forcing the fearful to do anything only reinforces their world view. Going to school with, working with, living in neighborhoods with other kinds of people are ways in which through daily discovery you find that others are not so different from yourself. But labeling, and trying to intimidate people into accepting a position only brings about an equally willful defiance.

5. What I take exception to here is your attitude that shouting your position loudly enough is going to produce the effect you desire. It will not. Displaying your tolerance will beget tolerance, your patience will beget patience, and in the case of bigotry familiarity does not breed contempt, but rather understanding. My objection here is not toward the goals you set forth but the manner in which you seek to reach them. It is boorish, counterproductive, and almost as ignorant as the other position. Why ignorant? Because allowing a passion to overcome reason and compassion is just as destructive as bigotry.

Now young man with promise, put that in your pouch and smoke it over from time to time and you and your children might be able to avoid unnecessary violence and angst. Faith in the goodness that can be reached in others always produces longer lasting and better long term results than vilifying them. Dr. King knew this and practiced it even at the cost of his life, but the resultant shame and horror at the results of extremists turned the South against a century old evil. In the end it accomplished more than 4 years of civil war.

The tactics that you and others have employed in your argumentation labels and vilifies. Brother that is right out of Joseph Goebbels play book. I then read Bison's post and all I image are the brown shirts coming in the night for those the state labels as offenders. Remember it is just as evil when it comes from the left as when it comes from the right. If in your pursuit of what you believe to be justice you become what you abhor, at least in practice, was your methodology effective and worth it, or destructive of your ultimate aims and the catalyst for the loss of your soul?

I'm tired of hearing a nation that should be in constant debate as to what is right four our society taking polarized positions where all conversation ceases and battle lines are drawn. It is only a recipe for disaster.
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2017 11:10 AM by JRsec.)
04-13-2017 11:08 AM
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Minutemen429 Offline
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Post: #56
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 10:32 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment.

Is it really the last stand, though??

Here's the damned problem: non-bigots live too close together. Basically, because 15 bigots live off in the middle of nowhere, they get to elect a bigot representative who gets the same vote in the state senate as a rep for a million non-bigots.

Combine that with gerrymandered districts, and you have a bunch of states that vote around 50-50 for governor, but whose state legislatures are between 60-40 and 70-30 skewed.


This won't change until the people take control and end this farce/fraud. Pitchforks in hand.

VOTES are the only thing that matters, not land area!

Where do you live?? I know where I live voting districts for state legislature are based on population.
04-13-2017 11:10 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #57
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 10:45 AM)bluesox Wrote:  If you label somebody a bigot because they disagree with an issue, I don't see where the line gets drawn. It's a good proproganda tool though. I will go back plural marriage, why isn't it bigoted to be against that?

No, I label somebody a bigot when they discriminate against a protected class of citizens. That's quite different than "disagreeing on an issue". I'll once again point to my own company (and pretty much every legally compliant company in America): disagreeing on an issue is not inherently a problem, but discrimination will (and should) get you fired. There's a massive difference between not liking someone's opinion and actually infringing upon another human being's civil rights.

The plural marriage argument is actually a propaganda tool to attempt to justify continued bigotry. I've heard that one many times - "If we allow anyone other than a man and a woman marry, then we're on the road to allowing plural marriage, incest, people marrying pets, and every other "deviant" act out there! Harumph!"

It's obvious that I'll never get anywhere with many people here on the fundamental moral and social underpinnings of what I believe. However, there's an objectively clear legal argument as to why plural marriage is very different than same-sex marriage: plural marriage would require a change to virtually every family law concept on the books, a great portion of the laws regarding wills and trusts, many tax laws and a whole mountain of other statutory and common law standards. Why? Because all of those laws are inherently based on a one person marrying one other person for legal purposes. (Whether a polygamist might choose to take on multiple wives in a religious context is honestly up to them, but a polygamist can only have one *legal* spouse.)

In contrast, not a single family law or estate planning law statute or concept had to be changed with the allowance of same-sex marriage. Every single statutory and common law concept that applies to heterosexual marriage holds up perfectly from a legal perspective. That simply isn't the case for plural marriage (and why courts with judges across the political spectrum would treat it very differently).
04-13-2017 11:15 AM
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Post: #58
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 11:08 AM)JRsec Wrote:  it comes from the left as when it comes from the right.

THIS is the root cause problem, today.

The discussion, the debate, the research, the press releases, the statements, the articles ....... it's been turned into a game. The game is called "Left vs Right".


It has been purposely re-framed -- mis-framed -- as just Left and Right. Two innocuous teams, bleached of any true consequence on quality of life or morality.


And why do that? Because it allows the side who is sticking up for evil, sticking up for hatred, sticking up for hostility, to pretend that its stance isn't those things. No, no ... it's just "our way". It's not hate speech ... it's just "our way", the way of the Right. It's not intolerance ... it's just "our way", the way of the Right. It's not exclusion ... it's just "our way", the way of the Right.

And you can do the same thing for the Left.


There's nothing bad or wrong about "Left" and "Right". It brainwashes you into being able to support what is blatantly wrong.
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2017 11:20 AM by MplsBison.)
04-13-2017 11:18 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #59
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
Wow, this got real political, real fast. I apologize for my part in the tangent.

I hate the North Carolina state government. I think it's a farce. But that is my personal opinion, and it has nothing to do with CS & CR. So that is my fault, and I apologize.
04-13-2017 11:26 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #60
RE: UNC and NC State to leave ACC?
(04-13-2017 11:08 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 10:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(04-13-2017 09:01 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  This is not likely to happen but what if a few other states do pass similar "bathroom" laws. They would also become off limits to ncaa events and presumably, conference events too. Kansas, Texas and whatever other states that are contemplating these sorts of laws would have to join with each other and NC to organize a new semi-national athletic association. Weird.

While other states are considering these laws, it's the last stand of backward bigots in a world that is changing every moment. They continue to deny how the entire world has entirely changed regarding LGBT rights within the last 5 to 10 years... and it's never changing back. It's similar to racial segregation, where it went from being reluctantly tolerated outside of the South in 1960 to how they were universally rejected everywhere by 1965, yet a group of hardcore bigots continued to deny progress for several years (e.g. George Wallace's presidential runs).

If a manager in our company decided to apply a rule like HB2 in one of our offices, he/she would be fired for discrimination. Our clients (many of which are larger than we are... and we're one of the 50 largest companies in the world) would also EXPECT us to do that, as well. They do not want to work with discriminatory organizations. Once again, these aren't left wing organizations that we're talking about here (and some are actually well-known targets of liberals). These are places that want the best and brightest educated talent... and the best and brightest educated talent today UNIVERSALLY rejects discrimination against the LGBT community.

And yes, I will continue to use the word bigot. If that bothers people, then so be it. The world is finally waking up that such bigotry has been in place for far too long and it has no place in society. I have such a visceral reaction to these types of bills and stories because sports (as much as I love them) are trivial diversions compared to this type of bigotry. If it's not me calling out such bigotry, then it will be those much more important in people's lives, such as their children, grandchildren, and essentially every educated person under the age of 30. Places like the North Carolina legislature can have their last stands on this issue, but from a general societal perspective, it's as settled of an issue as racial segregation was by 1965.

1. Wallace wasn't a bigot. Wallace was an opportunist and demagogue who was elected at the end of his career with the African American vote.

2. Enforcement of laws of equal access is a viable position.

3. Forcing a vision of morality on a free society is not. At the very point people are not free to shape their lives and associations by their personal understanding freedom dies. If they abide by the laws there should be no crisis. If they don't then they break the law. But, the forcing of associations crosses the line of what any free government can impose and at that point you become other (fascist comes to mind).

4. Note Bison's response of forcing the law with pitchforks. Note your own implication that anyone who disagrees with you is somehow uneducated. The greatest ally in the defeat of bigotry is the loss of fear of the object of your bigotry. Forcing the fearful to do anything only reinforces their world view. Going to school with, working with, living in neighborhoods with other kinds of people are ways in which through daily discovery you find that others are not so different from yourself. But labeling, and trying to intimidate people into accepting a position only brings about an equally willful defiance.

5. What I take exception to here is your attitude that shouting your position loudly enough is going to produce the effect you desire. It will not. Displaying your tolerance will beget tolerance, your patience will beget patience, and in the case of bigotry familiarity does not breed contempt, but rather understanding. My objection here is not toward the goals you set forth but the manner in which you seek to reach them. It is boorish, counterproductive, and almost as ignorant as the other position. Why ignorant? Because allowing a passion to overcome reason and compassion is just as destructive as bigotry.

Now young man with promise, put that in your pouch and smoke it over from time to time and you and your children might be able to avoid unnecessary violence and angst. Faith in the goodness that can be reached in others always produces longer lasting and better long term results than vilifying them. Dr. King knew this and practiced it even at the cost of his life, but the resultant shame and horror at the results of extremists turned the South against a century old evil. In the end it accomplished more than 4 years of civil war.

The tactics that you and others have employed in your argumentation labels and vilifies. Brother that is right out of Joseph Goebbels play book. I then read Bison's post and all I image are the brown shirts coming in the night for those the state labels as offenders. Remember it is just as evil when it comes from the left as when it comes from the right. If in your pursuit of what you believe to be justice you become what you abhor, at least in practice, was your methodology effective and worth it, or destructive of your ultimate aims and the catalyst for the loss of your soul?

I'm tired of hearing a nation that should be in constant debate as to what is right four our society taking polarized positions where all conversation ceases and battle lines are drawn. It is only a recipe for disaster.

JRsec - I respect your opinions quite a bit on this board.

However, this notion that people need to somehow be tolerant of intolerance is simply trying to find an excuse for discriminators to justify their bigotry.

During my freshman year of college in 1996, I lived next door to a transgender female and a gay male. As a sheltered kid from the Chicago suburbs, I thought this was insane and literally scary when I moved into my dorm. However, after about a week, I realized how much of an ignorant (funny that you apply that word liberally in your own response) idiot I had been towards LGBT people for my entire life up until that point. Unfortunately, I saw some of the most vile and awful discrimination that I have ever seen in any context against them and other LGBT people on campus... and mind you that Illinois was even then considered to be an extremely liberal university. So, no, I don't have any sympathy for the "You need to tolerate my intolerance!" argument. The intolerant people ruled the world with reckless abandon up until 5 years ago and now they're suddenly whining that they're being "forced" to change. I have zero sympathy. None. Nada. The people whining now are the ones that forced everyone else to change to their viewpoint for decades. The hateful discrimination that I saw against LGBT people with my own eyes has absolutely no justification and it's not merely "an issue of disagreement". It's bigotry and it has no place in this world. Period.
(This post was last modified: 04-13-2017 11:38 AM by Frank the Tank.)
04-13-2017 11:29 AM
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