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UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
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Pervis_Griffith Offline
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Post: #21
RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
(04-11-2017 02:40 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Many ESPN's talking heads have been calling for the death penalty for Penn State, North Carolina, Miami Florida, Ohio State and the latest, Baylor. These schools have become the most hated teams that people wish they be gone forever. It is one of the reasons why several G5 schools gain a lot of fans and good players lately. Nobody wants to say that they are a proud fan of any of these schools.


Uh ... yeah .. right. 01-wingedeagle01-wingedeagle01-wingedeagle01-wingedeagle01-wingedeagle01-wingedeagle01-wingedeagle01-wingedeagle01-wingedeagle01-wingedeagle
04-11-2017 03:39 PM
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chess Offline
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RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
(04-11-2017 01:56 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I'd be curious to know what the ACC and UNC's peers think of this entire situation. Do they want this to go away, or would they find value in UNC being penalized for clearly taking advantage of academic standards?

Let's just make it clear that Clemson would not mind if UNC got harsh penalties. When Clemson was put on probation after the 1981 national championship, UNC led the ACC in giving extra penalties to Clemson.

South Carolina left the ACC because they felt UNC treated the school unfairly.

My feeling on the issue is simple- NC State quickly dealt with Jim Valvano and the NC State athletic department. The school raised the athletic standards to the highest in the ACC and, although the standards have been loosened, the school's athletic department has not recovered.

North Carolina needs to do the same. UNC is fighting this because the scandal goes all the way back to Dean Smith's final years and the Guttheridge years. UNC does not want to give up basketball national championships.
(This post was last modified: 04-11-2017 03:43 PM by chess.)
04-11-2017 03:42 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #23
RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
(04-11-2017 12:08 PM)Wedge Wrote:  There's a reason that university presidents (as opposed to sportswriters or fans on internet message boards) don't usually say things like this out loud: When you're a university president and you say this, you've just handed out an invitation for people to investigate your own athletic department.

Give this man a chicken dinner.

Actually, I think I understand UMD's president now. He's an ***hole.
04-11-2017 03:54 PM
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ColKurtz Offline
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Post: #24
RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
(04-11-2017 03:42 PM)chess Wrote:  South Carolina left the ACC because they felt UNC treated the school unfairly.

USCe left the ACC due to academic issues. The ACC, at the time, had admission standards for athletes well above the NCAA standard. South Carolina didn't want to deal with that so they left. The ACC dropped those standards just a few years after that.
04-11-2017 04:28 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #25
RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
(04-11-2017 01:56 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I'd be curious to know what the ACC and UNC's peers think of this entire situation. Do they want this to go away, or would they find value in UNC being penalized for clearly taking advantage of academic standards?

The death of conference mates turning you in, and the death of the NCAA's teeth came with revenue sharing. If you turn Alabama in and they don't make the CFP then the conferences is out of a split of 80 million if they don't have another representative in the wings. If you are N.C. State and you turn in UNC you lose those tourney credits. Most commissioners now promote an all for one and one for all mentality between the schools. If somebody gets turned in it is by a member of another conference, or by a disgruntled donor or fan.

Right now North Carolina is the basketball bell cow of the ACC. Duke is still strong but fading a tad. Nobody in the ACC is going to rat on UNC at the administrative level.

Ole Miss would not have been in trouble except their own athletes flashed the cash on UTube and Facebook and a top draftee on NFL draft night talked about is impermissible benefits at Ole Miss. The SEC can't cover stupid!

The NCAA realizes that conference members are hard to nail down in testimony these days because it affects their bottom line in a revenue sharing conference.

Then enter the networks. Do you think for a minute that CBS, or ESPN, or FOX, or NBC wants to lose a top national brand's telecasts for a season or two, or lose out on their failure to appear in the post season? It affects their advertising rates which affects their pocket books. So don't look for ESPN to do a 20/20 piece on this that does anything but throw cover for the school.

The bigger the money got, and the more people who get a slice of the pie, the fewer folks there are that want to see sanctions.

Now enter the NCAA itself. Let's say that Kansas and North Carolina, and Michigan State all wound up on probation for recruiting violations. The NCAA banks nearly 70 million a year into their endowment from the tournament. Take a few national brands out of the tourney and voila advertisers balk about the rates because a large part of the national audience suddenly is less likely to tune in. Now for enforcing rules the NCAA may cut 10 million out of their own annual haul. Ain't happening!

The enforcement committee needs to be 100% independent of the NCAA and the schools other than the apportionment that each school must pay for the organization's fairness.
04-11-2017 04:43 PM
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bullet Offline
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Post: #26
RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
(04-11-2017 12:31 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  I have my doubts whether the NCAA rule book stretches far enough to cover what UNC did, but I agree with the sentiment.

Its a YUGE stretch to say it doesn't. These fake classes were set up and designed for athletes. Regular students were incidental. It is an attack on the whole idea of student-athlete. They didn't even set up "easy" classes. They had non-existent classes.
04-11-2017 04:57 PM
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goodknightfl Offline
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Post: #27
RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
UNC charlotte will pay the price for them.
04-11-2017 06:18 PM
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ohio1317 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
Penalties always feel trivial when someone else is getting them and always feel overly harsh when it is your school. I despise the NCAA for a lot (it is a political organization essentially), but I do not think they under-punish.

I also think they should only be punishing for clear athletic violations. I very much disagreed with the Penn State punishment because it was stretch to say any of the problems were NCAA violations. They were worse than NCAA violations, but that that was something for the courts to handle. The NCAA itself had a very limited case against Penn State, but the powers-that-be wanted to show the NCAA had teeth and thus took extraordinary steps.
04-11-2017 09:50 PM
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ohio1317 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
(04-11-2017 04:57 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(04-11-2017 12:31 PM)arkstfan Wrote:  I have my doubts whether the NCAA rule book stretches far enough to cover what UNC did, but I agree with the sentiment.

Its a YUGE stretch to say it doesn't. These fake classes were set up and designed for athletes. Regular students were incidental. It is an attack on the whole idea of student-athlete. They didn't even set up "easy" classes. They had non-existent classes.

If they are technically classes though (in the sense that is it possible for other people to sign up for and get same deal even if they aren't athletes), then that makes the NCAA case somewhat harder. While it might be true they were set-up with athletes in mind, the NCAA doesn't look at the rigor of classes.

On the flip side though, a North Carolina degree should be devalued by something like this, which is actually a far, far bigger issue for the school than NCAA issues. There might also be accreditation issues involved or something like that (again bigger issue than the NCAA).
04-11-2017 09:54 PM
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Post: #30
RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
(04-11-2017 03:42 PM)chess Wrote:  
(04-11-2017 01:56 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I'd be curious to know what the ACC and UNC's peers think of this entire situation. Do they want this to go away, or would they find value in UNC being penalized for clearly taking advantage of academic standards?

Let's just make it clear that Clemson would not mind if UNC got harsh penalties. When Clemson was put on probation after the 1981 national championship, UNC led the ACC in giving extra penalties to Clemson.

South Carolina left the ACC because they felt UNC treated the school unfairly.

My feeling on the issue is simple- NC State quickly dealt with Jim Valvano and the NC State athletic department. The school raised the athletic standards to the highest in the ACC and, although the standards have been loosened, the school's athletic department has not recovered.

North Carolina needs to do the same. UNC is fighting this because the scandal goes all the way back to Dean Smith's final years and the Guttheridge years. UNC does not want to give up basketball national championships.


You sir are absolutely correct!!! UNC is a pus to the ACC, NCAA, & college sports. There should be a class action suite against the NCAA by the universities that been hurt by the NCAA while giving UNC a wink and a nod.
04-11-2017 10:34 PM
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panite Offline
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Post: #31
RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
(04-11-2017 12:00 PM)orangefan Wrote:  Maryland president Wallace Loh says he would expect North Carolina to get the "death penalty" over the academic allegations that have hung over the athletic program since 2010.

"For the things that happened in North Carolina, it's abysmal. I would think that this would lead to the implementation of the death penalty by the NCAA. But I'm not in charge of that."

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/story...-athletics

Them's fightin' words!

The Maryland president wouldn't be quacking like that if Maryland was still in the ACC. 03-nutkick 04-chairshot 05-stirthepot 04-jawdrop 03-shhhh 04-cheers 04-cheers
(This post was last modified: 04-12-2017 12:02 AM by panite.)
04-12-2017 12:02 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #32
RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
(04-11-2017 01:56 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I'd be curious to know what the ACC and UNC's peers think of this entire situation. Do they want this to go away, or would they find value in UNC being penalized for clearly taking advantage of academic standards?

I fully support that whatever penalty the NCAA imposes on UNC that the ACC add an additional year for good measure,
(This post was last modified: 04-12-2017 12:16 AM by Kaplony.)
04-12-2017 12:14 AM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #33
RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
(04-11-2017 02:40 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Many ESPN's talking heads have been calling for the death penalty for Penn State, North Carolina, Miami Florida, Ohio State and the latest, Baylor. These schools have become the most hated teams that people wish they be gone forever. It is one of the reasons why several G5 schools gain a lot of fans and good players lately. Nobody wants to say that they are a proud fan of any of these schools.

Really? Link?
04-12-2017 12:15 AM
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VA49er Offline
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Post: #34
RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
(04-11-2017 12:00 PM)orangefan Wrote:  Maryland president Wallace Loh says he would expect North Carolina to get the "death penalty" over the academic allegations that have hung over the athletic program since 2010.

"For the things that happened in North Carolina, it's abysmal. I would think that this would lead to the implementation of the death penalty by the NCAA. But I'm not in charge of that."

Them's fightin' words!

He's not wrong you know. Of course it will not happen, as UNC-Cheat makes the NCAA way too much money.
04-12-2017 06:44 AM
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BearcatJerry Offline
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RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
Nothing is going to happen to North Carolina...

C'mon, already.
04-12-2017 07:06 AM
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Post: #36
RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
(04-11-2017 04:43 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-11-2017 01:56 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I'd be curious to know what the ACC and UNC's peers think of this entire situation. Do they want this to go away, or would they find value in UNC being penalized for clearly taking advantage of academic standards?

The death of conference mates turning you in, and the death of the NCAA's teeth came with revenue sharing. If you turn Alabama in and they don't make the CFP then the conferences is out of a split of 80 million if they don't have another representative in the wings. If you are N.C. State and you turn in UNC you lose those tourney credits. Most commissioners now promote an all for one and one for all mentality between the schools. If somebody gets turned in it is by a member of another conference, or by a disgruntled donor or fan.

Right now North Carolina is the basketball bell cow of the ACC. Duke is still strong but fading a tad. Nobody in the ACC is going to rat on UNC at the administrative level.

Ole Miss would not have been in trouble except their own athletes flashed the cash on UTube and Facebook and a top draftee on NFL draft night talked about is impermissible benefits at Ole Miss. The SEC can't cover stupid!

The NCAA realizes that conference members are hard to nail down in testimony these days because it affects their bottom line in a revenue sharing conference.

Then enter the networks. Do you think for a minute that CBS, or ESPN, or FOX, or NBC wants to lose a top national brand's telecasts for a season or two, or lose out on their failure to appear in the post season? It affects their advertising rates which affects their pocket books. So don't look for ESPN to do a 20/20 piece on this that does anything but throw cover for the school.

The bigger the money got, and the more people who get a slice of the pie, the fewer folks there are that want to see sanctions.

Now enter the NCAA itself. Let's say that Kansas and North Carolina, and Michigan State all wound up on probation for recruiting violations. The NCAA banks nearly 70 million a year into their endowment from the tournament. Take a few national brands out of the tourney and voila advertisers balk about the rates because a large part of the national audience suddenly is less likely to tune in. Now for enforcing rules the NCAA may cut 10 million out of their own annual haul. Ain't happening!

The enforcement committee needs to be 100% independent of the NCAA and the schools other than the apportionment that each school must pay for the organization's fairness.

If this is what they're thinking, it's very shortsighted.

The "student-athlete" concept is all that separates the NCAA from the NBA d-league or minor league baseball. If the "top national brands" don't enforce the student-athlete model then the public will eventually stop paying attention to NCAA sports.
04-12-2017 09:50 AM
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Post: #37
RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
(04-11-2017 04:57 PM)bullet Wrote:  It is an attack on the whole idea of student-athlete.

One might argue that the daily routines of P5 football players are really a very generous stretching of the term student-athlete.


(04-12-2017 09:50 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  The "student-athlete" concept is all that separates the NCAA from the NBA d-league or minor league baseball. If the "top national brands" don't enforce the student-athlete model then the public will eventually stop paying attention to NCAA sports.

Could not disagree with this more.

People care about UNC basketball because its the team of the University of North Carolina. It's their team. Some people are even fans of the team without having ever taken a single credit at the school.
04-12-2017 10:37 AM
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Post: #38
RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
(04-12-2017 10:37 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(04-11-2017 04:57 PM)bullet Wrote:  It is an attack on the whole idea of student-athlete.

One might argue that the daily routines of P5 football players are really a very generous stretching of the term student-athlete.


(04-12-2017 09:50 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  The "student-athlete" concept is all that separates the NCAA from the NBA d-league or minor league baseball. If the "top national brands" don't enforce the student-athlete model then the public will eventually stop paying attention to NCAA sports.

Could not disagree with this more.

People care about UNC basketball because its the team of the University of North Carolina. It's their team. Some people are even graduates without having ever taken a single credit at the school.

Fixed.
04-12-2017 10:50 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #39
RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
(04-12-2017 09:50 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(04-11-2017 04:43 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(04-11-2017 01:56 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I'd be curious to know what the ACC and UNC's peers think of this entire situation. Do they want this to go away, or would they find value in UNC being penalized for clearly taking advantage of academic standards?

The death of conference mates turning you in, and the death of the NCAA's teeth came with revenue sharing. If you turn Alabama in and they don't make the CFP then the conferences is out of a split of 80 million if they don't have another representative in the wings. If you are N.C. State and you turn in UNC you lose those tourney credits. Most commissioners now promote an all for one and one for all mentality between the schools. If somebody gets turned in it is by a member of another conference, or by a disgruntled donor or fan.

Right now North Carolina is the basketball bell cow of the ACC. Duke is still strong but fading a tad. Nobody in the ACC is going to rat on UNC at the administrative level.

Ole Miss would not have been in trouble except their own athletes flashed the cash on UTube and Facebook and a top draftee on NFL draft night talked about is impermissible benefits at Ole Miss. The SEC can't cover stupid!

The NCAA realizes that conference members are hard to nail down in testimony these days because it affects their bottom line in a revenue sharing conference.

Then enter the networks. Do you think for a minute that CBS, or ESPN, or FOX, or NBC wants to lose a top national brand's telecasts for a season or two, or lose out on their failure to appear in the post season? It affects their advertising rates which affects their pocket books. So don't look for ESPN to do a 20/20 piece on this that does anything but throw cover for the school.

The bigger the money got, and the more people who get a slice of the pie, the fewer folks there are that want to see sanctions.

Now enter the NCAA itself. Let's say that Kansas and North Carolina, and Michigan State all wound up on probation for recruiting violations. The NCAA banks nearly 70 million a year into their endowment from the tournament. Take a few national brands out of the tourney and voila advertisers balk about the rates because a large part of the national audience suddenly is less likely to tune in. Now for enforcing rules the NCAA may cut 10 million out of their own annual haul. Ain't happening!

The enforcement committee needs to be 100% independent of the NCAA and the schools other than the apportionment that each school must pay for the organization's fairness.

If this is what they're thinking, it's very shortsighted.

The "student-athlete" concept is all that separates the NCAA from the NBA d-league or minor league baseball. If the "top national brands" don't enforce the student-athlete model then the public will eventually stop paying attention to NCAA sports.

I agree to a point. There are alumni that will only be interested in their school and supporting their teams. So while failing to protect the student athlete model will lead to a loss of interest by the public, the falling away will never be total.

That said, my point was to illuminate the monetary reasons that the present models of revenue sharing have majorly curtailed schools within conferences from policing themselves. And I extended that to show why networks and the NCAA itself have diminished reasons for enforcement.

That's why any investigative or punitive arm of enforcement must be independent from the conferences, the networks and the NCAA. Now certainly all schools should pay for this and do so equally, but the agency of enforcement should only answer to the rules.

For the NCAA to duck the UNC matter by laying some of it off on the accrediting authorities, or to obfuscate their duties by claiming other students also benefited is merely legal semantics. The long and short of it is that they really don't want to function as an enforcement office. And while I agree that the child abuse and rape cases at Penn State and Baylor are legal issues, it flies in the face of reason that repercussions of such behavior and the institutional obstruction and / or cover-ups that have taken place are text book indications of a lack of institutional control and should still be treated as such in spite of the legal issues.

The double speak and blurred lines of authority in all of this are simply administrative excuses for not dealing harshly with key institutions which have violated the public trust, obstructed justice, but are so politically intertwined and profitable to their states that no one wants to take action.
(This post was last modified: 04-12-2017 10:54 AM by JRsec.)
04-12-2017 10:51 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #40
RE: UMD President says UNC should get the Death Penalty
JR ... I still don't buy even a single iota of the sentiment that people will be turned off to watching college teams if the players are no longer students at the school.

I think we're talking 0.1% loss max.
04-12-2017 10:56 AM
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