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Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
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Lenvillecards Offline
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Post: #21
Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
The AAC is a high major with the potential to be a power in basketball. Top 7 conference in basketball & football without a doubt. Their pay should certainly be at least on par with the BE. What is hurting the AAC is the bottom. IMO the Tulane addition was a horrible one. I like the Wichita addition. It adds to the top of the conference & I'm not really buying the argument that they will make the bottom weaker. They may add another loss but basically instead of playing Cincy, for example, twice they'll play Cincy & Wichita, not much difference. The RPI for the the top should rise due to Wichita being on the schedule. What the AAC needs now is for Memphis, Temple, Houston & UCONN to play at their potential. With UCONN, Wichita, Cincinnati, Memphis & maybe a couple more playing at a high level, they would definitely be a power basketball conference.
04-09-2017 10:31 AM
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RutgersGuy Online
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Post: #22
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
(04-09-2017 09:36 AM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  
(04-09-2017 09:28 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(04-09-2017 09:23 AM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  
(04-09-2017 08:14 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  Looks like we have 14 fans of AAC schools voting.

That's what I'm saying about this poll.
You have a lot of fans of other conferences 'defending their turf' by voting the other way.
Its a meaningless exercise.

Not really, it's that the power conferences get at least 1/2 of the teams in the tournament.

My friend, all polls on these boards are nothing but pissing contests.

How many conferences have a national championship to their credit in the last handful of years?
We can talk about consistent bids as another metric of relevance but the AAC wasn't expecting consistent bids right out of the gate. It was a build to begin with because programs were chosen to ensure long term success in all sports. For those out of the conference, its easy to puff out their chests when multiple AAC teams have new regimes and short benches.
The Wichita State addition is another great move for the conference that extends the efforts with the new coaches and infrastructure that have gone in to the movement.

If Gonzaga won this year the WCC would have a national championship in it's conference. Would they automatically be a power conference? How about if Butler won one of it's two title game appearances? Would the Horizon league be a power conference?
04-09-2017 11:12 AM
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B easy Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
(04-09-2017 11:12 AM)RutgersGuy Wrote:  
(04-09-2017 09:36 AM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  
(04-09-2017 09:28 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(04-09-2017 09:23 AM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  
(04-09-2017 08:14 AM)loki_the_bubba Wrote:  Looks like we have 14 fans of AAC schools voting.

That's what I'm saying about this poll.
You have a lot of fans of other conferences 'defending their turf' by voting the other way.
Its a meaningless exercise.

Not really, it's that the power conferences get at least 1/2 of the teams in the tournament.

My friend, all polls on these boards are nothing but pissing contests.

How many conferences have a national championship to their credit in the last handful of years?
We can talk about consistent bids as another metric of relevance but the AAC wasn't expecting consistent bids right out of the gate. It was a build to begin with because programs were chosen to ensure long term success in all sports. For those out of the conference, its easy to puff out their chests when multiple AAC teams have new regimes and short benches.
The Wichita State addition is another great move for the conference that extends the efforts with the new coaches and infrastructure that have gone in to the movement.

If Gonzaga won this year the WCC would have a national championship in it's conference. Would they automatically be a power conference? How about if Butler won one of it's two title game appearances? Would the Horizon league be a power conference?

In all fairness, the AAC is substantially more accomplished than the WCC & the Horizon combined regardless of the criteria (history, brand, prowess, trajectory, budget, value, etc.). There are so many people that want the AAC to be marginalized (those in the P5 for obvious reasons but also those on the outside looking in as misery loves company). That is why the AAC is being forced to remove all doubt in order to truly establish itself as a legitimate 'power' conference.

Proof will be in the pudding and I'd be amazed if the AAC doesn't surpass expectations. Looking at the pedigree before the WSU add & at least 3 bids should be taken every year. Yes, the AAC had a down year but AAC will get 4+ bids next year & that's going to be the rule going forward, not the exception. There may be down years from time to time but just too many good programs not to excell (UC, UH, WSU, Temple, UCONN, Tulsa, SMU, & even UCF looks to be moving in the right direction). At least half of those teams should get a bid every year.

Yes, the AAC will be unfairly subjected to distorted perception but that goes with the territory at this point. Even this past season, one of the teams at the bottom of the AAC (Temple) defeated 2 teams at the top of the standings of ACC & Big 12 (FSU & WVU) which represents more than just an inference of the overall strength of the league. However, moving forward the objective achievements will eventually speak for themselves. Too many schools pouring money and effort into their respective programs and too many brands and pedigree to be denied.

Additionally, the motivation is there. Aresco aptly labeled the AAC as the 'contender' conference. The AAC has been relegated to secondary citizenship status (fairly or unfairly, you decide) but the point is that the AAC is the best football conference outside of the P5 & is the best basketball conference outside the P5 & the Big East. There is no other conference outside the 'power structure' that can even come close to making those claims and now with WSU in the fold, in basketball, the AAC will likely at least compete with the P5 and the Big East in terms of on-court product.
(This post was last modified: 04-11-2017 11:59 AM by B easy.)
04-09-2017 11:54 AM
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Go College Sports Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
No. If Temple, UConn and Memphis can turn their programs around, SMU can avoid fading back into irrelevancy, and the bottom teams can collectively pull themselves up to respectability, they will be there.
04-09-2017 12:17 PM
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CougarRed Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
(04-09-2017 08:13 AM)Chappy Wrote:  NCAA Appearances - Last 10 Seasons
UCF - 0
Cincinnati - 7
Connecticut - 6
East Carolina - 0
Houston - 1
Memphis - 6
South Florida - 1
SMU - 2*
Temple - 7
Tulane - 0
Tulsa - 2
Wichita State - 6

38 Appearances, or 3.8 per season.

I think we'll average about 3.5 bids a year. About 30%. Which is what the original C-USA averaged.

Instead of Louisville, Marquette, DePaul, UAB, Charlotte and Saint Louis, you have UConn, Wichita St, Temple, SMU, Tulsa and UCF.

Cincy, Memphis, Houston, USF, Tulane and ECU remain the same.

As Jon Rothstein noted, we really need UConn and Memphis to come back strong. Unfortunately for them, both are looking weak next year. We also need Temple and Tulsa to get back to winning. And for Brian Gregory at USF and Mike Dunlavy at Tulane to improve the bottom of the league to a more respectable level.

Wichita and Cincy should rule the league next year. SMU too if they get Semi back. Houston should be strong again. Those should be your top four teams.
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2017 12:47 PM by CougarRed.)
04-09-2017 12:41 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
I think we all need to remind ourselves that P5, P6, "power conference", mid-major, etc. are all purely artificial labels - media shorthand. And by media I am including "amateur" media as well as professional - all of us who inhabit internet message boards and talk forums.

As such, nobody has the power to elevate or demote a conference to such a status. There are two distinctions that do matter, however. One is autonomy status - power granted to five conferences who have separated themselves based on resources, and which the NCAA can't afford to lose. They are the geese laying the golden eggs.

The second is AQ, or automatic qualifier, status which guarantees those five conferences access to the high dollar, high prestige bowl games dubbed the NY6. When all is said and done, it is those bowls which grant that status, not the NCAA and not the media. And those "grants" are the free market at work.

The perception of power in basketball is similar. Conferences don't get multiple tournament bids because they are considered power conferences. Just the opposite.
They are considered by the media to be power conferences because they consistently get multiple bids. Similarly, conferences don't get paid more by the media because someone dubbed them "power worthy". They get paid more because the market says their content is more valuable to the advertisers and consumers who pay the bills.

So what should we be calling the P5/6? A name they used to refer to themselves says it as eloquently and accurately as any I've heard. They are the "high resources group". And by that measure, I'm not sure that the Big East even qualifies. As far as I know, they have no special voting status within the NCAA. They don't have "autonomy", however that term is defined. Like the AAC, their current perceived market value as measured by the size of their media contracts was based on a prospective, rather than retrospective estimate of how strong they are likely to be on the court. Like the AAC, time will sort that out when those contracts are renewed.

At the end of the day, the networks will decide who is most valuable to them, and not to anyone else. The rest is just talk.
04-09-2017 12:56 PM
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BigEastHomer Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
(04-09-2017 08:13 AM)Chappy Wrote:  NCAA Appearances - Last 10 Seasons
UCF - 0
Cincinnati - 7
Connecticut - 6
East Carolina - 0
Houston - 1
Memphis - 6
South Florida - 1
SMU - 2*
Temple - 7
Tulane - 0
Tulsa - 2
Wichita State - 6

38 Appearances, or 3.8 per season.

The key is the fact that within the last 4 years, investment at the Florida schools, the Texas schools, Tulane (under Dannen), etc, has ramped up significantly with the new conference.

So, a 10 year average fails to show the impact of the realignment, which has been marked. Look at SMU for instance. That number doesn't include getting left out last year. Stretch their AAC run over 10 years.

I don't think you can quantify a range at this time. Exposure and conference prestige has made those different jobs, as evidenced by the influx of new, more accomplished, coaches. Even Gregg Marshall has made mention of the fact that his job is entirely different now. He essentially created his own promotion.
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2017 02:41 PM by BigEastHomer.)
04-09-2017 02:36 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
(04-09-2017 02:36 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  
(04-09-2017 08:13 AM)Chappy Wrote:  NCAA Appearances - Last 10 Seasons
UCF - 0
Cincinnati - 7
Connecticut - 6
East Carolina - 0
Houston - 1
Memphis - 6
South Florida - 1
SMU - 2*
Temple - 7
Tulane - 0
Tulsa - 2
Wichita State - 6

38 Appearances, or 3.8 per season.

The key is the fact that within the last 4 years, investment at the Florida schools, the Texas schools, Tulane (under Dannen), etc, has ramped up significantly with the new conference.

So, a 10 year average fails to show the impact of the realignment, which has been marked. Look at SMU for instance. That number doesn't include getting left out last year. Stretch their AAC run over 10 years.

I don't think you can quantify a range at this time. Exposure and conference prestige has made those different jobs, as evidenced by the influx of new, more accomplished, coaches. Even Gregg Marshall has made mention of the fact that his job is entirely different now. He essentially created his own promotion.

Basically, don't use that metric because it doesn't promote the AAC as being closer to a "power conference" rather than part of the G5. Got it.

07-coffee3
04-09-2017 03:08 PM
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Chappy Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
(04-09-2017 03:08 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(04-09-2017 02:36 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  
(04-09-2017 08:13 AM)Chappy Wrote:  NCAA Appearances - Last 10 Seasons
UCF - 0
Cincinnati - 7
Connecticut - 6
East Carolina - 0
Houston - 1
Memphis - 6
South Florida - 1
SMU - 2*
Temple - 7
Tulane - 0
Tulsa - 2
Wichita State - 6

38 Appearances, or 3.8 per season.

The key is the fact that within the last 4 years, investment at the Florida schools, the Texas schools, Tulane (under Dannen), etc, has ramped up significantly with the new conference.

So, a 10 year average fails to show the impact of the realignment, which has been marked. Look at SMU for instance. That number doesn't include getting left out last year. Stretch their AAC run over 10 years.

I don't think you can quantify a range at this time. Exposure and conference prestige has made those different jobs, as evidenced by the influx of new, more accomplished, coaches. Even Gregg Marshall has made mention of the fact that his job is entirely different now. He essentially created his own promotion.

Basically, don't use that metric because it doesn't promote the AAC as being closer to a "power conference" rather than part of the G5. Got it.

07-coffee3

I figured 10 years was enough time to get the 'reputation' accurate among current recruits. Obviously he is correct in that it doesn't really show the impact of expansion, which would be a + for the former C-USA schools and a - for the Big East leftovers... But as far as your comment is concerned, there is no G5 in basketball, so I don't know how we could be close to it. I think it demonstrates that we are in the realm of the A10, and as the conference grows, hopefully we will be up there with the Big East.
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2017 03:33 PM by Chappy.)
04-09-2017 03:32 PM
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Attackcoog Online
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Post: #30
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
(04-09-2017 12:59 AM)Kaplony Wrote:  For the record I voted no. I think that just adding WSU is going to lead to cannibalization among the AAC programs with a chance at getting a bid, and IMO will eventually lead to Marshall bailing on WSU first decent chance he gets.

The AAC's problem isn't that the top of the conference wasn't good enough.....it's the fact that the rest of the conference was that damn bad. For all the good this does to the top of the conference it makes the bottom that much worse.

It works just the opposite. If it worked like you seem to think, power conferences would get fewer bids as the increased quality within the conference drove more teams to finish around the .500 mark. Instead, the more good teams in a conference, the more respect even .500 record teams seem to get from the committee.

The real lesson is that high performing teams outside of the P5 would be best served by aggregating with other similar programs to form much stronger conferences. Much better to play fairly well against a strong conference schedule than to breeze through a weak conference schedule.

The AAC now has at least 6 schools with reputations of generally fielding teams most years that will challenge for an NCAA bid (UConn, Cincy, Temple, Memphis, SMU, Wichita). They have 2 or 3 more that are nearing that level of quality (Houston, Tulsa, UCF). Only about 3 of the 12 schools have "bad" basketball programs. If the AAC can get those teams up from "bad" to "fair"---then it would be hard to classify the AAC as anything less than a basketball power conference.
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2017 03:55 PM by Attackcoog.)
04-09-2017 03:52 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
If the American added Dayton and VCU, then we would become a power conference.

As it is, we're just the best of the mid-majors.
04-09-2017 03:55 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #32
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
For the record, following is the average %age of teams in each conference (as they are now constituted, with WSU counted in AAC figures) to make the NCAAT over the past seven seasons.

Conf... %

B12... 60
BE..... 51
ACC... 50
B1G... 46
PAC... 36
AAC... 36
SEC... 31
A10... 25
MWC.. 24
WCC.. 21
MVC... 11 *

* which is to say, they averaged one bid per year - their automatic qualifier.
04-09-2017 04:54 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
(04-09-2017 04:54 PM)ken d Wrote:  For the record, following is the average %age of teams in each conference (as they are now constituted, with WSU counted in AAC figures) to make the NCAAT over the past seven seasons.

Conf... %

B12... 60
BE..... 51
ACC... 50
B1G... 46
PAC... 36
AAC... 36
SEC... 31
A10... 25
MWC.. 24
WCC.. 21
MVC... 11 *

* which is to say, they averaged one bid per year - their automatic qualifier.

Very interesting that two 10-member conferences are at the top of that list. It definitely creates less room for error.
04-09-2017 05:37 PM
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Post: #34
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
The AAC's...and their fans...preoccupation on being considered a "Power" conference answers the question.

If they were--or honestly believed they were--a "Power" conference, they wouldn't keep asking the question. It's like being "cool." If you are worried about being cool, then you aren't.

So, keep asking the question, but realize that by the simple act of asking it you have already answered it.
04-09-2017 05:44 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
(04-09-2017 03:55 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  If the American added Dayton and VCU, then we would become a power conference.

As it is, we're just the best of the mid-majors.

To quote Bob Diaco, that's Ridiculous.

Aresco capped the conference at 12. There is no need to go there to chase some imaginary title. As has been said countless times around here, the football autonomy group self-named themselves power. Beyond that, in college basketball there are "high majors" which the NBE and the AAC are commonly classified as. Then you work down.
Its doubtful the A10 schools are in the long term plans of the AAC. Not because I wouldn't mind seeing it but because there really is hesitation to recreate the hybrids of the OBE and the original CUSA.
Navy and Wichita are considered to take up a full spot.
(This post was last modified: 04-09-2017 06:08 PM by BigEastHomer.)
04-09-2017 06:04 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
(04-09-2017 06:04 PM)BigEastHomer Wrote:  Aresco capped the conference at 12. There is no need to go there to chase some imaginary title. As has been said countless times around here, the football autonomy group self-named themselves power. ...
However, repetition does not convert a false statement into a true one ... and lack of repetition does not convert a true statement to a false one.

The term "power conferences" comes out of the same CFP negotiations that the term "Group of Five" came out of, and in terms of bargaining power with the media partners in the CFP, the "power conferences" were the ones with the bargaining power to gain a share of the CFP money for themselves, while the Group of Five had enough bargaining power to get a share to split among themselves as they agreed.

The American can aspire to be in a position in the next round of CFP negotiations to negotiate on their own behalf and claim a larger share for themselves than the average available to the remaining "Group of X" ... but that is a long way away.

Major status in basketball is more fluid ... if the AAC has built enough market value in basketball when their contract goes to market that their basketball earns as much or more as the six conferences widely acknowledged as Major conferences, if they earn a similar or better percentage of bids as the weakest of the Majors, if they have conference power ratings and other computer rankings in amongst the six Major conferences, they'll come to be recognized as a Major conference in basketball.

Seven year averages constructed on the basis of current AAC members when they were previously competing in a variety of other conferences are not going to make that case, but five year averages once they have been competing as the AAC for five years that show the AAC in amongst the Majors would make a strong case that they be recognized as a Major.
04-10-2017 05:57 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
How about a "we'll see" option? 07-coffee3
04-10-2017 09:03 AM
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Post: #38
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
Power Conference designation should really just be reserved for Football. With FBS, it is tangible and established what a Power Conference is, and who the P5 are. The networks, TV deals and bowl agreements confirm that.

With basketball, it really doesn't matter. How many teams the American can get in is not affected by how many the B1G can get in. While the conference championship winners get into the NCAA Tournament via autobids, many at-large teams from the top 8 conferences will regularly get in. There are no set parameters on how many teams from the American could, conceivably, get in. It could be as low as one (unlikely) or as many as six/seven in a great year (also unlikely). I think the average, with the addition of Wichita State, will be around 4-5.
04-10-2017 09:31 AM
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Post: #39
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
(04-10-2017 09:31 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Power Conference designation should really just be reserved for Football. With FBS, it is tangible and established what a Power Conference is, and who the P5 are. The networks, TV deals and bowl agreements confirm that.

With basketball, it really doesn't matter. How many teams the American can get in is not affected by how many the B1G can get in. While the conference championship winners get into the NCAA Tournament via autobids, many at-large teams from the top 8 conferences will regularly get in. There are no set parameters on how many teams from the American could, conceivably, get in. It could be as low as one (unlikely) or as many as six/seven in a great year (also unlikely). I think the average, with the addition of Wichita State, will be around 4-5.

I generally concur. IMHO there are "high resource" basketball programs and then there are not. The high resource schools span most in the P5/P6 (but not all of them) and then about another 10-15 programs in other conferences (Gonzaga, New Mexico, BYU, UConn, Cincinnati, Wichita State, Memphis, Dayton, VCU and a few others).

Sadly, I think there are those in a position of power who like things the way there are. They want to ensure that the P5 schools get all the media revenue, all the tournament credits, all the exposure, etc. while schools in the other conferences wilt.
04-10-2017 09:42 AM
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Post: #40
RE: Is the AAC a 'Power Conference' at least in basketball now w/t addition of WSU?
(04-10-2017 09:42 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(04-10-2017 09:31 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  Power Conference designation should really just be reserved for Football. With FBS, it is tangible and established what a Power Conference is, and who the P5 are. The networks, TV deals and bowl agreements confirm that.

With basketball, it really doesn't matter. How many teams the American can get in is not affected by how many the B1G can get in. While the conference championship winners get into the NCAA Tournament via autobids, many at-large teams from the top 8 conferences will regularly get in. There are no set parameters on how many teams from the American could, conceivably, get in. It could be as low as one (unlikely) or as many as six/seven in a great year (also unlikely). I think the average, with the addition of Wichita State, will be around 4-5.

I generally concur. IMHO there are "high resource" basketball programs and then there are not. The high resource schools span most in the P5/P6 (but not all of them) and then about another 10-15 programs in other conferences (Gonzaga, New Mexico, BYU, UConn, Cincinnati, Wichita State, Memphis, Dayton, VCU and a few others).

Sadly, I think there are those in a position of power who like things the way there are. They want to ensure that the P5 schools get all the media revenue, all the tournament credits, all the exposure, etc. while schools in the other conferences wilt.

And that's what, in my mind, makes college basketball run smoother than football. Today, in football, you have the College Football Playoff, highlighting and promoting the perceived best teams in the country (but really the P5), with one guaranteed Access Bowl Slot for the G5 (Western Michigan, Houston, Boise State). Is it fair? Probably not. Is it efficient? For the P5 it is, but the G5 not so much.

For college basketball, everyone and every conference has an opportunity. If you are unfairly left out of the NCAA Tournament, you are most likely somewhere between #45 and #60 in the country. However, there is no top-10 team left out, and the smaller conferences are not grouped together for one spot to compete. Every conference is guaranteed an opportunity in the big dance.

Having said that, logistically, it is easier to do a large-scale tournament in basketball rather than football. You can't play on back-to-back days in football like in basketball. You can only, really, play once a week in football. With basketball, however, you can play two whole rounds in a span of four days, and knock out the whole tournament in a span of three weeks. That's the beauty of the NCAA Tournament - and the big reason why wide-scale change won't be coming to affect it. The TV deal is locked into place for awhile, and the networks, IMO, would put their foot down if the P5 tried to do the same thing in basketball as they have done in football.
(This post was last modified: 04-10-2017 09:57 AM by GoldenWarrior11.)
04-10-2017 09:56 AM
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