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MUAvalanche Offline
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Post: #41
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-25-2017 08:17 AM)stever20 Wrote:  Isn't that what OBE fans thought was going to be the case with Butler, Creighton, and Xavier?

And I would disagree with your statement that the BE hasn't had a season where 10 teams hasn't hurt the conference.
2013-14 season- St John's went 1-5 vs Villanova, Creighton, and Xavier- 0-3 on the road. If the league had 12 teams and instead of playing just 1 of those 3 road games, they had another game that they won, with how close they were- probably in the tourney.
2015-16 season- Marquette- went 1-5 vs Villanova, Butler, and Xavier- also 0-3 on the road. Same thing with them.

Definitely St John's as they were 1 of the 1st teams out of the tourney. Marquette in 2015-16 was probably 2 wins away.

I see you combining two issues into one argument, and the process is really two step. The first step is determining if adding school X (SLU, VCU, Gonzaga, Dayton, etc.) would bring a benefit to the league. That is a different question than would the league benefit school X. It is also a different question today than it was for BU, CU and XU during the formation of the current group. At this point, nobody available moves the needle for the league enough to get an invitation, making the second step irrelevant. That doesn't mean that there aren't quality schools or quality basketball programs available. It means that for whatever reason (public, football, location, quality of basketball) the fit is not there at this point in time. The fit may be there in the future, but not in April of 2017.

The second step involves altering the schedule to eliminate the RR, which may not happen at 11 but would at 12. I don't see this as an issue if school X gets past step one, nor as a reason to prevent an obvious fit from joining the conference. There just is no obvious fit in April of 2017.
04-25-2017 09:31 AM
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stever20 Online
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Post: #42
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
my point is pretty simple. You said that there hasn't been a single season where the current setup has hurt the Big East. And that's total BS. BE was in 2014 for instance a Creighton BET win away from having 3 teams in the tourney. And that's totally due to the round robin. St John's and Providence(who was 2-4 vs the top 3 and 0-3 on the road) should have both gotten in easily.

And the other point. Folks saying that Dayton or VCU have no chance of ever getting in the Big East are frankly ignorant. For instance you mention that they could look near the renegotiation. If VCU has kept on until that time- they'd be going on like 13 years of performance at that time(assuming starting to look 2 years out). IF VCU made another sweet 16 or elite 8, they would become much more of a factor. Especially since you couldn't say it's just Shaka.
04-25-2017 09:52 AM
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stever20 Online
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Post: #43
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
the thing that amazes me is folks that are so brazen and saying that Dayton isn't their peer at all. My question to that is simple. 4 years ago, did they consider Butler, Creighton, or Xavier their peer?
04-25-2017 11:30 AM
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Post: #44
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-25-2017 11:30 AM)stever20 Wrote:  the thing that amazes me is folks that are so brazen and saying that Dayton isn't their peer at all. My question to that is simple. 4 years ago, did they consider Butler, Creighton, or Xavier their peer?

Dayton may surprise you, i mean look Creighton came out of no where and became good, hell UConn was trash before Calhoun arrived for the most part. if i were you i would scoop Dayton up
(This post was last modified: 04-25-2017 11:36 AM by Huskypride.)
04-25-2017 11:35 AM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #45
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-25-2017 09:52 AM)stever20 Wrote:  my point is pretty simple. You said that there hasn't been a single season where the current setup has hurt the Big East. And that's total BS. BE was in 2014 for instance a Creighton BET win away from having 3 teams in the tourney. And that's totally due to the round robin. St John's and Providence(who was 2-4 vs the top 3 and 0-3 on the road) should have both gotten in easily.

And the other point. Folks saying that Dayton or VCU have no chance of ever getting in the Big East are frankly ignorant. For instance you mention that they could look near the renegotiation. If VCU has kept on until that time- they'd be going on like 13 years of performance at that time(assuming starting to look 2 years out). IF VCU made another sweet 16 or elite 8, they would become much more of a factor. Especially since you couldn't say it's just Shaka.

Stever, again, you are trying to rewrite history by using a hypothetical that did not happen. We got four teams in that year (which has been our lowest since our reconfiguration). What happened happened. Creighton finished 27-8 and 14-4 in conference. Five programs that year finished with 20 wins or more (Villanova, Creighton, Providence, St. Johns and Xavier). If St. Johns didn't start off the conference 0-5, including losing to DePaul, then they are in too - but you can't rewrite history.

My feelings are known about VCU. Solid program - no doubt, but they have advanced to exactly one Sweet 16 in their entire program's history. In ten trips to the tournament since 2000, they had one - just one - magical season in the tournament. Tournament success is not only one factor, but institutional fit is another. They could have been added right off of Shaka's success in 2013, but they weren't. The Big East chose Butler, another program with strong recent success and an institutional fit instead. If they weren't chosen in 2013, why would they be chosen today?

Finally, I'm not sure where you got Dayton not being a peer from. I have never once said that or alluded to that.
04-25-2017 02:32 PM
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stever20 Online
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Post: #46
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
And Creighton doesn't have even 1 magical season in the tourney. That's the thing. Folks want to act like VCU's final 4 run never happened. And VCU has since the FF run exactly 1 fewer win in the NCAA that Creighton has had since 2000.

VCU has proven to be extremely consistent. How many programs have had even 7 straight NCAA bids? That's why I say if we get 6 years from now and VCU has maintained, Fox would have a tough time accepting anyone but them. It's not going to be entirely the Big East's choice. Well it could be, but the money could change accordingly. You generally want to keep your media partners happy. Lets just say this, it sure as hell won't be Richmond getting in.

You haven't said that about Dayton, but others on the other site have.
04-25-2017 03:01 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #47
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
But Creighton has something that VCU will never have: the institutional fit. That was and is a BIG deal to the Big East Presidents. They also have one of the top attendances in the nation, as well an incredibly large college basketball arena. For every one home game at Creighton, it takes over two at VCU to match the number.

Fox didn't twist the Big East's hand on Wichita State, nor would I expect them to on VCU. VCU doesn't move the needle, thus Fox won't pay more just for them. They don't improve ratings, they don't improve academics, and they are a clear stepping stone job. One Big East coach has been hired at another basketball program (Buzz Williams) since reorganizing. VCU has lost Capel, Grant, Smart and Wade in the past decade.
04-25-2017 06:42 PM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #48
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
Stever, are Holylanders really trashing Dayton?01-wingedeagle
(This post was last modified: 04-25-2017 07:15 PM by johnbragg.)
04-25-2017 07:15 PM
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Post: #49
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-25-2017 06:42 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  and they are a clear stepping stone job. One Big East coach has been hired at another basketball program (Buzz Williams) since reorganizing. VCU has lost Capel, Grant, Smart and Wade in the past decade.

couldn't you say the same thing about Butler or Xavier? Of course you could.

bottom line, if ratings don't improve in the next 6 years- Fox will demand more volume so they get better games. and that's going to be with the best teams around.... Fox doesn't give a rip about a damn litmus test. they want the best teams.

oh and you say BE ratings are up 85% or whatever from year 1. That's a bogus stat. You see year 1, there was 1 game on Big Fox. This year there were 12 games on Big Fox. So well duh, of course the ratings would be much better- FS1 or 2 vs Big Fox.
04-26-2017 01:34 AM
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Post: #50
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-25-2017 07:15 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  Stever, are Holylanders really trashing Dayton?01-wingedeagle

hell yeah they are. One literally posted

I'm a Villanova fan and am sick of hearing about Dayton.

They are not our peer in any way (basketball success, academics). I don't want to be associated with them or hear about them on this board.

I replied the question about if Dayton wasn't nova's peer now, were Butler, Creighton, or Xavier Nova's peers 4 years ago, For some reason that post didn't get approved. Guess it was too sensitive for those folks ears.
04-26-2017 01:37 AM
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MUAvalanche Offline
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Post: #51
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-26-2017 01:37 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 07:15 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  Stever, are Holylanders really trashing Dayton?01-wingedeagle

hell yeah they are. One literally posted

I'm a Villanova fan and am sick of hearing about Dayton.

They are not our peer in any way (basketball success, academics). I don't want to be associated with them or hear about them on this board.

I replied the question about if Dayton wasn't nova's peer now, were Butler, Creighton, or Xavier Nova's peers 4 years ago, For some reason that post didn't get approved. Guess it was too sensitive for those folks ears.

But you get hardheaded one-liners on message boards all the time. The art of conversation is lost when there is no face-to-face, or no actual evaluation of what the other side says. Earlier you made the statement that those who think Dayton and VCU have no chance are ignorant. You are pushing your opinion as fact and denigrating anyone who doesn't share the opinion. I am happy to have the conversation, to banter and the back and forth, and even to disagree, but would prefer to do so without the inflammatory remarks. I am more than willing to learn, as you often have interesting facts and numbers, but like most posters I'm not interested in potshots. We disagree frequently, but normally don't get nasty about it to each other. Keep things respectful on your end and watch the tone change from others.

That being said, I am not of the opinion that Dayton has been ruled out permanently. I do believe that XU will be given at least a decade in the BE before Dayton is considered, and XU will need to bless Dayton's membership. No blessing, no membership. I also believe SLU would be asked to join before Dayton. I don't see Dayton as #11 or #12, regardless of success. They may get in if there is a bump to 14, provided that there are at least two east coast schools added to the current 10.

I am also not of the opinion that VCU has been ruled out permanently, but I believe that the road for VCU is more difficult than Dayton's because of fit. When Bilas made the comment about the BE being a conference and the P5 being media entities, he was on to something. The institutional fit is important to the BE in 2017. Will that be the same in 2027? Who knows. VCU has to overcome that piece, and the scars from the old BE, where the fit wasn't there, are not yet healed.

Finally, your point about Butler, Xavier and Creighton being peers is interesting. But the counter to that is the decision-making process when you are surviving is different than when you are expanding. When the C7 was surviving, the question was which schools have the best opportunity to become peers of the C7. Was CU the biggest question mark of the three? Maybe. Was CU a bigger question mark than Dayton or SLU? Not in my opinion. The question in 2017 has changed to which school is currently a peer to the BE schools, would make the conference better overall and potentially bring revenue to the conference. Much different question and much different standard.
04-26-2017 09:50 AM
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Post: #52
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
I just don't think anyone can say with a straight face that Dayton or VCU has no chance. I think on the court success means something. If VCU has rattled off 6 more years(to make it 13)- of making the NCAA tourney- they're going to be tough to dismiss. I'm of the mind that it's not just going to be the Big East's decision. Fox or whoever will have a big say in that. And if VCU and Dayton are by far the 2 best options, and lets say SLU and especially Richmond continue to sputter- and Fox wants 12- to say Dayton or VCU has no chance is wrong, very wrong.
04-26-2017 10:48 AM
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Post: #53
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-26-2017 10:48 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I just don't think anyone can say with a straight face that Dayton or VCU has no chance. I think on the court success means something. If VCU has rattled off 6 more years(to make it 13)- of making the NCAA tourney- they're going to be tough to dismiss. I'm of the mind that it's not just going to be the Big East's decision. Fox or whoever will have a big say in that. And if VCU and Dayton are by far the 2 best options, and lets say SLU and especially Richmond continue to sputter- and Fox wants 12- to say Dayton or VCU has no chance is wrong, very wrong.

I respect your opinion, Stever. I just don't see VCU ever being in the Big East. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it. The C7 had the choice to create a conference with a Private/Public mix when it reorganized. It didn't. It had the opportunity to add a strong program at the time, coming off a Final Four appearance, and it didn't. Today, it still has the opportunity to add VCU, and there isn't a single shred of evidence to support they are even under consideration long-term.

The time to add VCU was in 2013 - with Shaka Smart, off of a Final Four appearance, and fresh off the renovations they made with Siegel. The fact they chose three Private/Jesuit schools, also with strong men's basketball programs, should have been enough of an example to show what Fox and the Presidents were thinking. If the Big East was to add a public school, they would do so with the likes of a UConn (which isn't happening, but I'm stilling using it as an example).

I'm not saying your train of thought is wrong, just that it isn't aligned with how the BE Presidents/Fox have been shown to thinking.
04-26-2017 03:11 PM
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Post: #54
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-26-2017 03:11 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(04-26-2017 10:48 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I just don't think anyone can say with a straight face that Dayton or VCU has no chance. I think on the court success means something. If VCU has rattled off 6 more years(to make it 13)- of making the NCAA tourney- they're going to be tough to dismiss. I'm of the mind that it's not just going to be the Big East's decision. Fox or whoever will have a big say in that. And if VCU and Dayton are by far the 2 best options, and lets say SLU and especially Richmond continue to sputter- and Fox wants 12- to say Dayton or VCU has no chance is wrong, very wrong.

I respect your opinion, Stever. I just don't see VCU ever being in the Big East. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it. The C7 had the choice to create a conference with a Private/Public mix when it reorganized. It didn't. It had the opportunity to add a strong program at the time, coming off a Final Four appearance, and it didn't. Today, it still has the opportunity to add VCU, and there isn't a single shred of evidence to support they are even under consideration long-term.

The time to add VCU was in 2013 - with Shaka Smart, off of a Final Four appearance, and fresh off the renovations they made with Siegel. The fact they chose three Private/Jesuit schools, also with strong men's basketball programs, should have been enough of an example to show what Fox and the Presidents were thinking. If the Big East was to add a public school, they would do so with the likes of a UConn (which isn't happening, but I'm stilling using it as an example).

I'm not saying your train of thought is wrong, just that it isn't aligned with how the BE Presidents/Fox have been shown to thinking.

The thing is, some folks want to act like there's absolutely no chance of it happening. If Fox determines they need more teams in the conference to continue, and VCU is the only program around outside worth anything, how wouldn't VCU be an option?

And the thing that would be interesting. If UConn did come around, would VCU at that point be close to an automatic add(if they've maintained where they are)?

The thing with VCU was in 2013, they were in really only year 3 of their run(and 1st really good regular season). So a lot more of a flash in the pan thought with them.

I just think if Fox decides they must have expansion, where the options are at that point will factor big time. IF SLU hasn't turned things around, they aren't getting in. Big East isn't adding a dreg.
04-26-2017 03:28 PM
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Post: #55
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-26-2017 03:28 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(04-26-2017 03:11 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(04-26-2017 10:48 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I just don't think anyone can say with a straight face that Dayton or VCU has no chance. I think on the court success means something. If VCU has rattled off 6 more years(to make it 13)- of making the NCAA tourney- they're going to be tough to dismiss. I'm of the mind that it's not just going to be the Big East's decision. Fox or whoever will have a big say in that. And if VCU and Dayton are by far the 2 best options, and lets say SLU and especially Richmond continue to sputter- and Fox wants 12- to say Dayton or VCU has no chance is wrong, very wrong.

I respect your opinion, Stever. I just don't see VCU ever being in the Big East. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it. The C7 had the choice to create a conference with a Private/Public mix when it reorganized. It didn't. It had the opportunity to add a strong program at the time, coming off a Final Four appearance, and it didn't. Today, it still has the opportunity to add VCU, and there isn't a single shred of evidence to support they are even under consideration long-term.

The time to add VCU was in 2013 - with Shaka Smart, off of a Final Four appearance, and fresh off the renovations they made with Siegel. The fact they chose three Private/Jesuit schools, also with strong men's basketball programs, should have been enough of an example to show what Fox and the Presidents were thinking. If the Big East was to add a public school, they would do so with the likes of a UConn (which isn't happening, but I'm stilling using it as an example).

I'm not saying your train of thought is wrong, just that it isn't aligned with how the BE Presidents/Fox have been shown to thinking.

The thing is, some folks want to act like there's absolutely no chance of it happening. If Fox determines they need more teams in the conference to continue, and VCU is the only program around outside worth anything, how wouldn't VCU be an option?

And the thing that would be interesting. If UConn did come around, would VCU at that point be close to an automatic add(if they've maintained where they are)?

The thing with VCU was in 2013, they were in really only year 3 of their run(and 1st really good regular season). So a lot more of a flash in the pan thought with them.

I just think if Fox decides they must have expansion, where the options are at that point will factor big time. IF SLU hasn't turned things around, they aren't getting in. Big East isn't adding a dreg.

Why would VCU be the only program, in your mind, worth anything? Because of their basketball success? Saint Louis has a bigger market, a larger athletics program, better academics and is an institutional fit. Dayton has an almost identical market to Richmond, but averages more at home games, and hosts the First Four every year. Dayton also has as strong and as well-rounded athletics program as VCU, but - again - is an institutional fit (which VCU is not).

Athletic success, for a majority of programs, is fickle and unpredictable. Even in down years, a program needs to provide value to the conference. For a comparison's sake, Rutgers was not added to the B1G for football strength. It was added as an institutional fit, academic and geographic fit. IMO, SLU and Dayton would add more value to the Big East than VCU would.
04-26-2017 05:16 PM
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Post: #56
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-26-2017 05:16 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(04-26-2017 03:28 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(04-26-2017 03:11 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(04-26-2017 10:48 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I just don't think anyone can say with a straight face that Dayton or VCU has no chance. I think on the court success means something. If VCU has rattled off 6 more years(to make it 13)- of making the NCAA tourney- they're going to be tough to dismiss. I'm of the mind that it's not just going to be the Big East's decision. Fox or whoever will have a big say in that. And if VCU and Dayton are by far the 2 best options, and lets say SLU and especially Richmond continue to sputter- and Fox wants 12- to say Dayton or VCU has no chance is wrong, very wrong.

I respect your opinion, Stever. I just don't see VCU ever being in the Big East. If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it. The C7 had the choice to create a conference with a Private/Public mix when it reorganized. It didn't. It had the opportunity to add a strong program at the time, coming off a Final Four appearance, and it didn't. Today, it still has the opportunity to add VCU, and there isn't a single shred of evidence to support they are even under consideration long-term.

The time to add VCU was in 2013 - with Shaka Smart, off of a Final Four appearance, and fresh off the renovations they made with Siegel. The fact they chose three Private/Jesuit schools, also with strong men's basketball programs, should have been enough of an example to show what Fox and the Presidents were thinking. If the Big East was to add a public school, they would do so with the likes of a UConn (which isn't happening, but I'm stilling using it as an example).

I'm not saying your train of thought is wrong, just that it isn't aligned with how the BE Presidents/Fox have been shown to thinking.

The thing is, some folks want to act like there's absolutely no chance of it happening. If Fox determines they need more teams in the conference to continue, and VCU is the only program around outside worth anything, how wouldn't VCU be an option?

And the thing that would be interesting. If UConn did come around, would VCU at that point be close to an automatic add(if they've maintained where they are)?

The thing with VCU was in 2013, they were in really only year 3 of their run(and 1st really good regular season). So a lot more of a flash in the pan thought with them.

I just think if Fox decides they must have expansion, where the options are at that point will factor big time. IF SLU hasn't turned things around, they aren't getting in. Big East isn't adding a dreg.

Why would VCU be the only program, in your mind, worth anything? Because of their basketball success? Saint Louis has a bigger market, a larger athletics program, better academics and is an institutional fit. Dayton has an almost identical market to Richmond, but averages more at home games, and hosts the First Four every year. Dayton also has as strong and as well-rounded athletics program as VCU, but - again - is an institutional fit (which VCU is not).

Athletic success, for a majority of programs, is fickle and unpredictable. Even in down years, a program needs to provide value to the conference. For a comparison's sake, Rutgers was not added to the B1G for football strength. It was added as an institutional fit, academic and geographic fit. IMO, SLU and Dayton would add more value to the Big East than VCU would.

But SLU and Dayton can't be struggling. Right now perception wise, Big East would get absolutely murdered if they brought in SLU for instance.

Also you say SLU has more sports than VCU does. True, but it's 20-19. So some larger athletic program.

And if we get 6 years from now and VCU is still keeping on, that would be 13 years straight- with at least 3 coaches of making the tourney. SLU would need to be at least where Dayton is right now, and Dayton would need to match that. It is about adding the right teams...

Oh, and if UConn is added, how would fit matter then? I think the second UConn is added, VCU is right there as well.
04-26-2017 08:26 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #57
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
I don't think there is any connection between UConn and VCU. UConn is a former and highly respected member of the Big East, with a connection to seven of the current schools. VCU has very little history with any Big East school.

Rutgers was added to the B1G with a terrible football and terrible basketball program. Colorado was added to the PAC-12 with a low football program. Syracuse was struggling when they were invited to the ACC. Realignment is bigger than any one sport. Institutional fit, which helps drive value, has been at the forefront of conferences adding schools.
04-27-2017 07:40 AM
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Post: #58
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-27-2017 07:40 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I don't think there is any connection between UConn and VCU. UConn is a former and highly respected member of the Big East, with a connection to seven of the current schools. VCU has very little history with any Big East school.

Rutgers was added to the B1G with a terrible football and terrible basketball program. Colorado was added to the PAC-12 with a low football program. Syracuse was struggling when they were invited to the ACC. Realignment is bigger than any one sport. Institutional fit, which helps drive value, has been at the forefront of conferences adding schools.

Rutgers didn't deserve to get into the big ten....
04-27-2017 08:03 AM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-27-2017 08:03 AM)Huskypride Wrote:  
(04-27-2017 07:40 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I don't think there is any connection between UConn and VCU. UConn is a former and highly respected member of the Big East, with a connection to seven of the current schools. VCU has very little history with any Big East school.

Rutgers was added to the B1G with a terrible football and terrible basketball program. Colorado was added to the PAC-12 with a low football program. Syracuse was struggling when they were invited to the ACC. Realignment is bigger than any one sport. Institutional fit, which helps drive value, has been at the forefront of conferences adding schools.

Rutgers didn't deserve to get into the big ten....

We can agree to disagree. The institutional fit, the location/market, the academics and the substantial increase in value aided by added NJ/DC metro areas claim otherwise.
04-27-2017 08:17 AM
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Location: Happy Town
Post: #60
RE: AAC- Big East challenge
(04-27-2017 08:17 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(04-27-2017 08:03 AM)Huskypride Wrote:  
(04-27-2017 07:40 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  I don't think there is any connection between UConn and VCU. UConn is a former and highly respected member of the Big East, with a connection to seven of the current schools. VCU has very little history with any Big East school.

Rutgers was added to the B1G with a terrible football and terrible basketball program. Colorado was added to the PAC-12 with a low football program. Syracuse was struggling when they were invited to the ACC. Realignment is bigger than any one sport. Institutional fit, which helps drive value, has been at the forefront of conferences adding schools.

Rutgers didn't deserve to get into the big ten....

We can agree to disagree. The institutional fit, the location/market, the academics and the substantial increase in value aided by added NJ/DC metro areas claim otherwise.

yeah, UConn to a point brings the new York market. They are a good academic school, they have better overall sports. I get why they chose Rutgers but i think there are schools Other they UConn that deserved the spot more. IK money drives the bus but you gotta see my point.
(This post was last modified: 04-27-2017 08:31 AM by Huskypride.)
04-27-2017 08:30 AM
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