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The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
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jacksfan29 Offline
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Post: #81
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-06-2017 12:09 PM)Chuck_A Wrote:  
(04-06-2017 11:56 AM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  
(04-05-2017 07:43 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(04-05-2017 07:40 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  NoDak,

I'll take Dennis Dodd's opinion over yours.

The Horizon is commuter hops between big cities and bus trips form there. You fly to Cincy (or Dayton) and bus to NKU or Wright; You fly to Detroit and bus to UDM or Oakland. You fly to Cleveland and bus to CSU and YSU; You fly to Milwaukee and bus to UWM and UWGB. UIC to Denver is no different in time than a bus trip from Wright State to Northern Kentucky.

Denver or Belmont make sense. If they both say no, then I think the Horizon stands at 9. I don't think they are desperate enough to lower their standards forthe like of Omaha or IUPUI

Dennis Dodd reads the Omaha paper, which has a garbage opinion. Denver needs a travel partner, like NMSU but not another hop, for it to make any sense.

But the Omaha opinion passes for news nowadays. See CNN.

NoDak and I agree 100%. No way DU to the Horizon happens.

Omaha? They have major financial problems. They can't afford the increased funding in either the MVC or Horizon plus they can't afford the $1 million exit fee to the Summit. Omaha may be in a more dire financial situation then UND were, before Women's Hockey was axed.

Then who, pray tell, has the financial wherewithal, inclination and athletics to help the Horizon when one of our teams is poached?

The only truly financially stable schools in the great plains corridor that includes Omaha, the two XDSU's who are not moving to the Horizon, by our choice and yours.

If you decide to go west, way west. NMSU are solid and may be amenable to a WAC departure but I doubt they agree to pay a fortune to subsidize your travel costs. UMKC seem to be financially stable but I wouldn't characterize them as being a good program though they do fit the "city school" profile.

You will need to look east or south. Or, if you only lose one to the MVC, sit at 9 for a couple of years, wait for the next MVC implosion and poach one, two or three MVC public schools. Go for the angry ones. UNI, SIU, Illinois State, Indiana State. You may even be able to band them together and have all four come over.
04-06-2017 12:21 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #82
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-06-2017 12:09 PM)Chuck_A Wrote:  Then who, pray tell, has the financial wherewithal, inclination and athletics to help the Horizon when one of our teams is poached?

Take both of the IUPU's off our hands. Please and thank you.

But seriously, if you have to have one (or two) schools, if they have to come from the Summit ... then those, and possible W ILL, are your only choices. 07-coffee3
04-06-2017 02:55 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #83
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-06-2017 12:09 PM)Chuck_A Wrote:  
(04-06-2017 11:56 AM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  
(04-05-2017 07:43 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(04-05-2017 07:40 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  NoDak,

I'll take Dennis Dodd's opinion over yours.

The Horizon is commuter hops between big cities and bus trips form there. You fly to Cincy (or Dayton) and bus to NKU or Wright; You fly to Detroit and bus to UDM or Oakland. You fly to Cleveland and bus to CSU and YSU; You fly to Milwaukee and bus to UWM and UWGB. UIC to Denver is no different in time than a bus trip from Wright State to Northern Kentucky.

Denver or Belmont make sense. If they both say no, then I think the Horizon stands at 9. I don't think they are desperate enough to lower their standards forthe like of Omaha or IUPUI

Dennis Dodd reads the Omaha paper, which has a garbage opinion. Denver needs a travel partner, like NMSU but not another hop, for it to make any sense.

But the Omaha opinion passes for news nowadays. See CNN.

NoDak and I agree 100%. No way DU to the Horizon happens.

Omaha? They have major financial problems. They can't afford the increased funding in either the MVC or Horizon plus they can't afford the $1 million exit fee to the Summit. Omaha may be in a more dire financial situation then UND were, before Women's Hockey was axed.

Then who, pray tell, has the financial wherewithal, inclination and athletics to help the Horizon when one of our teams is poached?

Bellarmine is spending money like a drunken sailor. They have 20 sports. Plus, they would like to add women's LAX and football. They even have plans in place for upgrading their facilities and a brand new football stadium.
04-06-2017 02:57 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #84
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-06-2017 02:55 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(04-06-2017 12:09 PM)Chuck_A Wrote:  Then who, pray tell, has the financial wherewithal, inclination and athletics to help the Horizon when one of our teams is poached?

Take both of the IUPU's off our hands. Please and thank you.

But seriously, if you have to have one (or two) schools, if they have to come from the Summit ... then those, and possible W ILL, are your only choices. 07-coffee3

Robert Morrissey is hands down the best option, but take IUPUI.

Grand Valley St or Wayne St are not bad choices, but the Horizon wouldn't take D2's, as shown by NKU.

Pawn off YSU though, as you'll be better off.
04-06-2017 03:00 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #85
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
A case can be made for Denver to the Horizon. The school recruits heavily from Great Lakes cities/suburbs, both for athletes and general students, and unlike the Summit, almost the entire Horizon is within a short distance from major airports with direct flights to Denver. Denver to Chicago is less than $100, while it's closer to $250 for Omaha and Chicago. This is because Denver is a major hub, and airports in the Midwest and West all flay directly there.

That is not an off the wall scenario. Denver would prefer to be in the WCC, but that is not likely for the next decade. The Summit was always something of a stable resting point. I don't think they are wedded to it for life.

I still think the Horizon will end up standing pat at 9, because Belmont will say no, and Denver is still more likely to say no than yes, while Kansas City, Omaha, and Purdue-Indy simply don't have programs good enough to invite.
04-06-2017 03:32 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #86
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-06-2017 03:32 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  A case can be made for Denver to the Horizon. The school recruits heavily from Great Lakes cities/suburbs, both for athletes and general students, and unlike the Summit, almost the entire Horizon is within a short distance from major airports with direct flights to Denver. Denver to Chicago is less than $100, while it's closer to $250 for Omaha and Chicago. This is because Denver is a major hub, and airports in the Midwest and West all flay directly there.

Works for a message board, non-starter for university presidents (Denver's, chiefly).


(04-06-2017 03:32 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  I still think the Horizon will end up standing pat at 9, because Belmont will say no, and Denver is still more likely to say no than yes, while Kansas City, Omaha, and Purdue-Indy simply don't have programs good enough to invite.

As I already showed in the other thread, IUPUI is not as far as you think from the bottom of the Horizon for MBB. Big market, big school enrollment, right in the middle of the footprint, and they play in a newly renovated arena that seats 6.8k. The bottom of the Horizon average 2xxx. IUPUI is capable of that, with the right opponents.

[Image: farmers.jpg]

It also has a high level track & soccer facility, that hosts the Indy Eleven pro soccer team. Could easily host the Horizon track and soccer championships. And it has a high-level swimming facility, which could host the Horizon swimming championship.

Seems like a slam dunk to me ...
(This post was last modified: 04-06-2017 03:55 PM by MplsBison.)
04-06-2017 03:49 PM
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Post: #87
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
Denver was an interesting situation for the Sun Belt.
Presidents liked the affiliation. AD's liked Denver's people, great to work with.

Just really hard to get from most Sun Belt cities to Denver without changing planes.
Eventually the travel hassle wore people out. It wasn't quite so bad when teams were flying to El Paso to get to Las Cruces for a Thursday game then flying on Denver for a Saturday game. When NMSU left, the travel became more of an annoyance.
04-06-2017 04:04 PM
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Lord Stanley Offline
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Post: #88
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-06-2017 03:49 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Seems like a slam dunk to me ...

I'd bet 3/4 of people's perception of UIPUI is name related. If they became "University of Indiana at Indianapolis" or "Purdue University Indianapolis" they'd be that slam dunk.
04-06-2017 04:12 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #89
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
It essentially is the U of I - Indy. That campus is where the U of Indiana's medical school, university hospital/medical clinics, and health science research is located.
04-06-2017 04:15 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #90
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
UIPUI Basketball Budget

253) Indiana University-Purdue University-Indianapolis tSL $1,564,479

UIPUI attendance
IUPUI, 11 game, 11,609 total, 1,055 average

The arena and the location are fine, as is Omaha and Kansas City. But sharing with those two is low performance and small budgets. Like Omaha there are also financial concerns for athletics.

That DQs these three schools. Or at least puts them in the "reach" category (to use NFL/NBA draft analysis)
04-06-2017 04:15 PM
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MU88 Offline
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Post: #91
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-04-2017 09:01 PM)utpotts Wrote:  I'll see that raise and raise you Mount Union and Wisconsin-Whitewater.

Whitewater is a better candidate than most of the schools mentioned. They have very nice facilities, except their arena is a bit small at 2500. They have about 12,000 students too, so they are large enough to go D1. Unfortunately, Whitewater is in a small town, about 45 minutes from Milwaukee (already a Horizon market) and its a football school. They average about 9,500 per game in football. So, moving up to the Pioneer League probably has little appeal for them. Would the MVFC want them? doubtful. In any event, they aren't moving up.

As for legitimate candidates, I would guess UNO, UMKC, and IUPUI all make sense for the Horizon. My guess is the Valley adds one and its a private school to add balance to the league. Belmont, Valpo and maybe Detroit would have to be considered the favorites. Denver isn't close and can't see the Valley going in that direction. If they go for a public school, I would think Murray State, UIC, UWM and UWGB would get strong consideration. To me, Murray State has the closest feel of a Valley team. I don't think UNO, UMKC, and IUPUI fit the profile of the Valley. Regarding Omaha, I doubt you go back so quickly after Creighton left.
04-06-2017 04:16 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #92
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-06-2017 04:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Indiana University-Purdue University-Indianapolis $1,564,479

In other words ... more than Youngstown St's MBB budget ....

(04-06-2017 04:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  IUPUI, 11 game, 11,609 total, 1,055 average

But IUPUI largely doesn't get the benefit from playing more regional opponents.

What if it got to play UIC, Valpo, etc. ? Then what would the attendance be?


Don't think it's as big a reach as you're making it out to be.
04-06-2017 04:21 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Offline
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Post: #93
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
Only including possibilities I believe are realistic. This is what I'd do if commissioner.

MVC targets:
1 Murray St
2 Belmont
3 Valparaiso

Horizon targets:
1 Belmont
2 Evansville
3 Robert Morris

I believe Belmont rejects both. I believe Murray/Valpo/RMU accept. I'll go out on a limb and call a coinflip that Evansville shifts.
04-06-2017 04:25 PM
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MU88 Offline
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Post: #94
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-06-2017 04:25 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Only including possibilities I believe are realistic. This is what I'd do if commissioner.

MVC targets:
1 Murray St
2 Belmont
3 Valparaiso

Horizon targets:
1 Belmont
2 Evansville
3 Robert Morris

I believe Belmont rejects both. I believe Murray/Valpo/RMU accept. I'll go out on a limb and call a coinflip that Evansville shifts.

No way Evansville goes back to the Horizon. I think Evansville, Loyola, Drake and Bradley stick together.
04-06-2017 04:40 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #95
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-06-2017 04:21 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(04-06-2017 04:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  Indiana University-Purdue University-Indianapolis $1,564,479

In other words ... more than Youngstown St's MBB budget ....

You add teams to the top, not the bottom. NKU is still building up, YSU throws everything at Football.

A better yard stick would be these three
176) University of Illinois at Chicago tHL $2,231,609
183) Cleveland State University tHL $2,172,463
185) Oakland University tHL $2,111,833


(04-06-2017 04:21 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(04-06-2017 04:15 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  IUPUI, 11 game, 11,609 total, 1,055 average

But IUPUI largely doesn't get the benefit from playing more regional opponents.

What if it got to play UIC, Valpo, etc. ? Then what would the attendance be?


Don't think it's as big a reach as you're making it out to be.

Sure Indiana and Butler would sell out. But your base a fan base on how they support their own team.

You're own comment says it's a reach, that they might do better with different opponents. Wrong way to look at it. Like going into your boss and saying, "I have poor performance reviews in the past. But if you promote me I will get better reviews."
(This post was last modified: 04-07-2017 12:27 AM by Stugray2.)
04-06-2017 04:44 PM
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Post: #96
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-06-2017 04:40 PM)MU88 Wrote:  
(04-06-2017 04:25 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Only including possibilities I believe are realistic. This is what I'd do if commissioner.

MVC targets:
1 Murray St
2 Belmont
3 Valparaiso

Horizon targets:
1 Belmont
2 Evansville
3 Robert Morris

I believe Belmont rejects both. I believe Murray/Valpo/RMU accept. I'll go out on a limb and call a coinflip that Evansville shifts.

No way Evansville goes back to the Horizon. I think Evansville, Loyola, Drake and Bradley stick together.

Evansville had been rumored as disenchanted with the MVC and had been mentioned as a Horizon target in the past. But with Butler gone and the MVC having many more dance credits now, the move doesnt make $ sense.
04-06-2017 04:58 PM
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jacksfan29 Offline
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Post: #97
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-06-2017 04:15 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  It essentially is the U of I - Indy. That campus is where the U of Indiana's medical school, university hospital/medical clinics, and health science research is located.

And as much as people make fun of them, academically they are sound and well respected. They also have a $600 million endowment. I do think a name change would help, and a move to the Horizon would also help them out.

I'd like to keep Fort Wayne in the Summit for baseball and they have shown they are capable of putting a decent product on the basketball court. I would not mind cutting IUPUI loose. So Horizon... have at it.
04-06-2017 05:17 PM
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Post: #98
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
The MVC doesn't make any sense anymore. It's held together by Wichita State credits and an ESPN (ESPN3 mostly) contract. You have private Basketball schools (Evansville, Loyola-Chicago, Drake, Butler) with a completely different academic standard than the public more rural football schools (Missouri State, Southern Illinois, Indiana State, Illinois State, Northern Iowa). I see half a basketball conference and half a football conference, ready to split in two. Wont happen, but you have to wonder if it will hold together in four or five years as the TV contract nears an end and the NCAA credits from Wichita State cycle out.
04-06-2017 05:21 PM
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jacksfan29 Offline
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Post: #99
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-06-2017 04:58 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(04-06-2017 04:40 PM)MU88 Wrote:  
(04-06-2017 04:25 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Only including possibilities I believe are realistic. This is what I'd do if commissioner.

MVC targets:
1 Murray St
2 Belmont
3 Valparaiso

Horizon targets:
1 Belmont
2 Evansville
3 Robert Morris

I believe Belmont rejects both. I believe Murray/Valpo/RMU accept. I'll go out on a limb and call a coinflip that Evansville shifts.

No way Evansville goes back to the Horizon. I think Evansville, Loyola, Drake and Bradley stick together.

Evansville had been rumored as disenchanted with the MVC and had been mentioned as a Horizon target in the past. But with Butler gone and the MVC having many more dance credits now, the move doesnt make $ sense.

Not now, but in the future I would not be shocked at all to see more then one Valley school moving to the Horizon. Minus someone making a Wichita type run (not going to happen) the money situation is going to change.
04-06-2017 06:51 PM
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Post: #100
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-06-2017 06:51 PM)jacksfan29 Wrote:  
(04-06-2017 04:58 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(04-06-2017 04:40 PM)MU88 Wrote:  
(04-06-2017 04:25 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  Only including possibilities I believe are realistic. This is what I'd do if commissioner.

MVC targets:
1 Murray St
2 Belmont
3 Valparaiso

Horizon targets:
1 Belmont
2 Evansville
3 Robert Morris

I believe Belmont rejects both. I believe Murray/Valpo/RMU accept. I'll go out on a limb and call a coinflip that Evansville shifts.

No way Evansville goes back to the Horizon. I think Evansville, Loyola, Drake and Bradley stick together.

Evansville had been rumored as disenchanted with the MVC and had been mentioned as a Horizon target in the past. But with Butler gone and the MVC having many more dance credits now, the move doesnt make $ sense.

Not now, but in the future I would not be shocked at all to see more then one Valley school moving to the Horizon. Minus someone making a Wichita type run (not going to happen) the money situation is going to change.

Maybe you are right.

MVC goes with NDSU, SDSU and UNO to reclaim the plains.

Hedges against future MVC defections. Evansville to the Horizon or a couple of football schools to the MAC.

07-coffee3
04-06-2017 11:19 PM
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