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The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
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chargeradio Offline
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Post: #41
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
Any chance the Horizon would look at Eastern Kentucky? Football may be an issue, but the MVFC could be a viable option for them. EKU pales in comparison to UK, but it would generate some interest in all three "golden triangle" markets in Kentucky.
04-04-2017 10:00 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #42
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-04-2017 08:33 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 06:35 PM)utpotts Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 01:31 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Could a similar budget from a D2 school be interested making the jump? Could a Grand Valley State, Wayne State-Michigan, Saginaw Valley, Northern Michigan or a Michigan Tech be interested in making the jump? Horizon could be a fit for them with schools close by. Wisconsin-Parkside is D2 as well.

I am seeing D2 schools in the midwest and the plains could be actually be looked at to make the move.

Dear lord just stop.......... I'll put $20 down you have never been to any of these schools in Michigan and have no idea what they actually are.

Then you throw out Ashland and Ohio Dominican...... the level of stupid just keeps rising.

I like how he refers to one of my alma maters (Masters Degree) as Wayne State-Michigan. As opposed to Wayne State University or just Wayne State. Nobody on the planet (outside of people who don't know a single thing about the school but just read online that they exist) refers to it as Wayne State-Michigan.

All that said: Grand Valley State and Wayne State have been speculated as D1 move-ups before. I don't think it will happen, as both appear to be happy as relatively big fish in the small pond of D2. But both schools fit the profile of D1 institutions in many ways.


There is a Wayne State-Nebraska. That is why I said Wayne State-Michigan because there are 2 schools that are called Wayne State.
04-04-2017 10:04 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Online
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Post: #43
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-04-2017 02:35 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 01:41 PM)Chuck_A Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 01:35 PM)ken d Wrote:  Why does any one bid league want to get bigger? All that does is reduce each team's share of the tournament money, and probably increase travel issues a little.

The only reason they shouldn't all be at 8 is that then some of them would have to be no-bid leagues, since the major conferences aren't going to allow more than 32 autobids.

Obviously they figure if they get the "best" of the other "one bid" league, then possibly that'll add another bid to the expanding league. If the rpi and SOS are good, it just might work.

But if the "best" of the other league has an RPI over 100, just like yours does, that's never going to get you a second bid. One of yours is going to get left out, while a team from the conference you just raided will send its RPI #150 team to the dance instead. That is true for about 20 of the 32 existing conferences every year, and more than 20 some years.
Definitely not 20. Probably just 8 with about 14 rep'd in the top 100.
04-04-2017 10:24 PM
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Post: #44
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-04-2017 08:59 PM)utpotts Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 08:33 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 06:35 PM)utpotts Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 01:31 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Could a similar budget from a D2 school be interested making the jump? Could a Grand Valley State, Wayne State-Michigan, Saginaw Valley, Northern Michigan or a Michigan Tech be interested in making the jump? Horizon could be a fit for them with schools close by. Wisconsin-Parkside is D2 as well.

I am seeing D2 schools in the midwest and the plains could be actually be looked at to make the move.

Dear lord just stop.......... I'll put $20 down you have never been to any of these schools in Michigan and have no idea what they actually are.

Then you throw out Ashland and Ohio Dominican...... the level of stupid just keeps rising.

I like how he refers to one of my alma maters (Masters Degree) as Wayne State-Michigan. As opposed to Wayne State University or just Wayne State. Nobody on the planet (outside of people who don't know a single thing about the school but just read online that they exist) refers to it as Wayne State-Michigan.

All that said: Grand Valley State and Wayne State have been speculated as D1 move-ups before. I don't think it will happen, as both appear to be happy as relatively big fish in the small pond of D2. But both schools fit the profile of D1 institutions in many ways.

GVSU loves being in D2. They enjoy being a big fish in a small pond. They would need a lot of money to upgrade their arena and Lubbers Stadium.

The funniest thing is he brings up Ferris State and Northern Michigan. I don't think DavidSt has ever been to Big Rapids or Marquette.
I don't buy that. DavidSt is a college athletics trailblazer who's toured a litany of D2/D3/NAIA schools. I would bet he's scoured the deepest and darkest depths of Michigan's Upper Peninsula.
04-04-2017 10:32 PM
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Post: #45
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-04-2017 09:32 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 06:35 PM)utpotts Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 01:31 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Could a similar budget from a D2 school be interested making the jump? Could a Grand Valley State, Wayne State-Michigan, Saginaw Valley, Northern Michigan or a Michigan Tech be interested in making the jump? Horizon could be a fit for them with schools close by. Wisconsin-Parkside is D2 as well.

I am seeing D2 schools in the midwest and the plains could be actually be looked at to make the move.

Dear lord just stop.......... I'll put $20 down you have never been to any of these schools in Michigan and have no idea what they actually are.

Then you throw out Ashland and Ohio Dominican...... the level of stupid just keeps rising.

I used to work for Lake Erie College--they are an academic and financial dumpster fire. Not D1 material.

I'm shocked he didn't throw out Owens Community College. Lol
04-04-2017 11:44 PM
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utpotts Online
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Post: #46
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-04-2017 10:32 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 08:59 PM)utpotts Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 08:33 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 06:35 PM)utpotts Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 01:31 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Could a similar budget from a D2 school be interested making the jump? Could a Grand Valley State, Wayne State-Michigan, Saginaw Valley, Northern Michigan or a Michigan Tech be interested in making the jump? Horizon could be a fit for them with schools close by. Wisconsin-Parkside is D2 as well.

I am seeing D2 schools in the midwest and the plains could be actually be looked at to make the move.

Dear lord just stop.......... I'll put $20 down you have never been to any of these schools in Michigan and have no idea what they actually are.

Then you throw out Ashland and Ohio Dominican...... the level of stupid just keeps rising.

I like how he refers to one of my alma maters (Masters Degree) as Wayne State-Michigan. As opposed to Wayne State University or just Wayne State. Nobody on the planet (outside of people who don't know a single thing about the school but just read online that they exist) refers to it as Wayne State-Michigan.

All that said: Grand Valley State and Wayne State have been speculated as D1 move-ups before. I don't think it will happen, as both appear to be happy as relatively big fish in the small pond of D2. But both schools fit the profile of D1 institutions in many ways.

GVSU loves being in D2. They enjoy being a big fish in a small pond. They would need a lot of money to upgrade their arena and Lubbers Stadium.

The funniest thing is he brings up Ferris State and Northern Michigan. I don't think DavidSt has ever been to Big Rapids or Marquette.
I don't buy that. DavidSt is a college athletics trailblazer who's toured a litany of D2/D3/NAIA schools. I would bet he's scoured the deepest and darkest depths of Michigan's Upper Peninsula.

Even the Yoopers would walk away from him.
04-04-2017 11:45 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #47
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-04-2017 08:59 PM)utpotts Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 08:33 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 06:35 PM)utpotts Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 01:31 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  Could a similar budget from a D2 school be interested making the jump? Could a Grand Valley State, Wayne State-Michigan, Saginaw Valley, Northern Michigan or a Michigan Tech be interested in making the jump? Horizon could be a fit for them with schools close by. Wisconsin-Parkside is D2 as well.

I am seeing D2 schools in the midwest and the plains could be actually be looked at to make the move.

Dear lord just stop.......... I'll put $20 down you have never been to any of these schools in Michigan and have no idea what they actually are.

Then you throw out Ashland and Ohio Dominican...... the level of stupid just keeps rising.

I like how he refers to one of my alma maters (Masters Degree) as Wayne State-Michigan. As opposed to Wayne State University or just Wayne State. Nobody on the planet (outside of people who don't know a single thing about the school but just read online that they exist) refers to it as Wayne State-Michigan.

All that said: Grand Valley State and Wayne State have been speculated as D1 move-ups before. I don't think it will happen, as both appear to be happy as relatively big fish in the small pond of D2. But both schools fit the profile of D1 institutions in many ways.

GVSU loves being in D2. They enjoy being a big fish in a small pond. They would need a lot of money to upgrade their arena and Lubbers Stadium.

The funniest thing is he brings up Ferris State and Northern Michigan. I don't think DavidSt has ever been to Big Rapids or Marquette.

GVSU and Wayne St simply don't have a DI conference that wants them for both football and other sports. They are too far from the Slummit now and where would they park football? The MVFC frowns on DII moveups. Maybe the NEC would look at them both, but it's not a good match.
(This post was last modified: 04-04-2017 11:54 PM by NoDak.)
04-04-2017 11:53 PM
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army56mike Offline
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Post: #48
The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-04-2017 10:00 PM)chargeradio Wrote:  Any chance the Horizon would look at Eastern Kentucky? Football may be an issue, but the MVFC could be a viable option for them. EKU pales in comparison to UK, but it would generate some interest in all three "golden triangle" markets in Kentucky.

I don't think EKU would make that move.
However, I would love to see Bellarmine get an invite. It would add another major metro area, and would be a natural rival for NKU, since they have a long history together in the GLVC anyway. There are a good number of Bellarmine fans in Louisville and a good number of UofL fans who cheer for Bellarmine as well.
(This post was last modified: 04-05-2017 03:36 AM by army56mike.)
04-05-2017 03:35 AM
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Post: #49
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-04-2017 04:52 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  UAH or University of Alabama @ Huntsville has hockey.

If Denver does not want to go? These schools might be interested.
Colorado Christian (Denver suburbs)
Colorado Mesa (club hockey)
Colorado Mines (Denver area)
Colorado State-Pueblo
Colorado @ Colorado Springs
Fort Lewis (Durango)
Metro State (Denver)
Regis (Denver)

University of Illinois @ Springfield
University of Indianapolis (football could be in the MVFC
Southern Indiana (Evansville)

Upper Iowa could go into the Summit. Football into the MVFC.

Newman in Wichita
Washburn (Topeka)

Bellarmine (Louisville)
Kentucky State (Frankfort) (football in Big South)
Kentucky Wesleyan (Owensboro) (football in Big South)

Michigan schools in heavy populated areas.
Grand Valley State
Michigan Tech
Northern Michigan (Marquette)
Wayne State
Ferris State
Davenport (Grand Rapids
)

concordia- St. Paul (Minneapolis)
Mankato State (outside of Minneapolis)
Minnesota-Duluth
St. cloud State

Drury (Springfield Missouri)
Lincoln Missouri (Jefferson City Missouri)
Lindenwood (St. Charles Missouri, St. Louis tv market)
Missouri Southern (Joplin)
UMSL
Rockhurst (Kansas City)

Montana State @ Billings

Le Moyne (Syracuse)

University of Mary (Bismarck)

Ashland (Ohio)
Cedarville
Ohio Dominican (Columbus)
Lake Erie

Cameron (Lawton)
Central Oklahoma (Edmond, OKC tv market)
East Central (Ada)
Northeastern Oklahoma (Tulsa tv market)
Oklahoma Christian (OKC)
Rogers State (Tulsa tv market)
Southeastern Oklahoma (Durant)
Southern Nazarene (Bethany, OKC suburbs)
Southwestern Oklahoma (Weatherford)
Oklahoma Baptist (Shawnee)

Christian Brothers (Memphis)

Dallas Baptist
Angelo State (San angelo)
Lubbock Christian
Midwestern State (Wichita Falls)
UTPB-Odessa
West Texas A&M (Amarillo tv market)

Shepherd (Shepherdstown West Virginia)

Wisconsin-Parkside






You could plug any of these schools into MVC, Horizon, and Summit. Football playing members could find homes in MVFC, Big South, Big Sky and Southland.

I'm not going to speak on any other portion of this post, but the bolded area is just ridiculous. Grand Valley and Wayne State are the only two that could even come close to moving up, and, as someone said above, they won't. Davenport will have a hard enough time at the DII level when they move up from NAIA and join the GLIAC. Davenport in a multi campus and online school that has about 7000 students.

I really think it's hilarious that DavidSt included Ferris State, Northern Michigan and Michigan Tech as heavily populated areas. That just isn't remotely correct. Big Rapids, where Ferris State is located, has about 10,0000 people and an even lower density county. It's not close enough to either Grand Rapids nor Traverse City to make any impact. There's just not enough people that live north of a line going from Flint to Grand Rapids to make any meaningful media difference. Northern Michigan and Michigan Tech is even more laughable. Marquette, where NMU is located, is the center of the UP with a population of about 25,000 people. Houghton, where MTU is, has 7,000. The entire UP has around 375,000 people in an area that would make it larger than nine US states. Not quite a heavily populated area.
(This post was last modified: 04-05-2017 08:00 AM by dayooper.)
04-05-2017 07:59 AM
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lance99 Offline
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Post: #50
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-04-2017 08:59 PM)utpotts Wrote:  The funniest thing is he brings up Ferris State and Northern Michigan. I don't think DavidSt has ever been to Big Rapids or Marquette.

DavidSt might be on to something. They sound like MAC Material. and with NIU you could make THE Directional Division of FBS with Toledo being a 'Outlier'

(I can't believe I just typed this post)03-no03-no03-no03-no03-no03-no
04-05-2017 11:45 AM
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RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
I'm waiting for the Directional Intercollegiate Conference or the DIC (pronounced ... "of dear") for short
04-05-2017 12:14 PM
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Policiious Offline
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RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
The Horizon has had success with D2 programs in larger marketing moving up with the recent success of Oakland (Detroit) & Northern Kentucky(Cinncinatti). Southern Indiana is in a hoops hotbed of Evansville from the same conference that Northern KY & Oakland left I believe. Good sized enrolllment (7K) have been consistently in the top 26 of D2 attendance (1500 - 1750 avg) and could play in a larger arena as Evansville has an arena for an ECHL franchise. Evansville U has not had much success in the Valley and they still draw well (4k), when USI moves up to D1 their attendance should rise.
04-05-2017 12:36 PM
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Post: #53
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-04-2017 01:41 PM)Chuck_A Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 01:35 PM)ken d Wrote:  Why does any one bid league want to get bigger? All that does is reduce each team's share of the tournament money, and probably increase travel issues a little.

The only reason they shouldn't all be at 8 is that then some of them would have to be no-bid leagues, since the major conferences aren't going to allow more than 32 autobids.

Obviously they figure if they get the "best" of the other "one bid" league, then possibly that'll add another bid to the expanding league. If the rpi and SOS are good, it just might work.

Or they might get another share from a win.

Also, with the limited number of sports, having 12 schools makes it easier to do the sports other than basketball.
04-05-2017 12:44 PM
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dbackjon Online
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Post: #54
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-05-2017 12:36 PM)Policiious Wrote:  The Horizon has had success with D2 programs in larger marketing moving up with the recent success of Oakland (Detroit) & Northern Kentucky(Cinncinatti). Southern Indiana is in a hoops hotbed of Evansville from the same conference that Northern KY & Oakland left I believe. Good sized enrolllment (7K) have been consistently in the top 26 of D2 attendance (1500 - 1750 avg) and could play in a larger arena as Evansville has an arena for an ECHL franchise. Evansville U has not had much success in the Valley and they still draw well (4k), when USI moves up to D1 their attendance should rise.


NKU and USI were/are in the Great Lakes Valley Conference (schools in KY, IL, MO, IN) Oakland was in the Great Lakes Intercollegiate Athletic Conference (all in MI or OH).
04-05-2017 12:47 PM
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RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
Numbers:
12+ 7 leagues
12 4 leagues
11 4 leagues
10 11 leagues
9 3 leagues (America East, Big West, Summitt)
8 3 leagues (Atlantic Sun, Ivy, WAC)
04-05-2017 12:49 PM
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RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-05-2017 12:36 PM)Policiious Wrote:  The Horizon has had success with D2 programs in larger marketing moving up with the recent success of Oakland (Detroit) & Northern Kentucky(Cinncinatti). Southern Indiana is in a hoops hotbed of Evansville from the same conference that Northern KY & Oakland left I believe. Good sized enrolllment (7K) have been consistently in the top 26 of D2 attendance (1500 - 1750 avg) and could play in a larger arena as Evansville has an arena for an ECHL franchise. Evansville U has not had much success in the Valley and they still draw well (4k), when USI moves up to D1 their attendance should rise.

Oakland hasn't been a D2 school since 1997. They were in the Mid Con/Summit till 2013 when they moved to the Horizon. They had plenty of success prior to moving to the Horizon. NKU, who finished the D1 transition the year they joined the Horizon is the only true D2 move up the Horizon took a chance on.
04-05-2017 12:57 PM
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RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-05-2017 12:36 PM)Policiious Wrote:  The Horizon has had success with D2 programs in larger marketing moving up with the recent success of Oakland (Detroit) & Northern Kentucky(Cinncinatti). Southern Indiana is in a hoops hotbed of Evansville from the same conference that Northern KY & Oakland left I believe. Good sized enrolllment (7K) have been consistently in the top 26 of D2 attendance (1500 - 1750 avg) and could play in a larger arena as Evansville has an arena for an ECHL franchise. Evansville U has not had much success in the Valley and they still draw well (4k), when USI moves up to D1 their attendance should rise.

Have there been any recent talks of Southern Indiana moving up to D1? They, like Bellarmine and UIndy, are experiencing or have experienced great success at the D2 level. Do their respective budgets and/or inability to raise funds hold them back from moving up?
(This post was last modified: 04-05-2017 01:33 PM by Chuck_A.)
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RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-04-2017 11:37 AM)esayem Wrote:  When will Denver finally settle on a conference? It they had a consistent basketball team they would be a great Olympic addition to the MWC.

I can speak to this with a bit of knowledge. DU's situation isn't one of not being able to settle on a conference - it's really an issue of being a geographic oddity in nearly every sense. They're elite-level in a handful of sports - soccer (men in the Final 4 this year), lacrosse (nat'l champs 2 years ago), hockey, skiing, and gymnastics. They're very good in others, like golf and tennis, in particular. The issue is that their profile looks much more like that of a Big East or ACC school, with the exception of sub-par basketball (and no football, in the case of ACC). They jumped from the Sun Belt to the Summit primarily because it was a somewhat better fit. They have history with North Dakota St and Omaha in hockey, and the Summit has far more alumni living in metro Denver than the SBC schools did. It's still not a good fit. The administration would love to be in West Coast Conference for a number of reasons, but the WCC hasn't bitten, despite taking BYU a few years back. The best regional(ish) and cultural fit (more private schools than the Summit) may actually end up being the Missouri Valley. The problem with the MVC is that the losses of Creighton and likely Wichita State remove the two western most members of the conference, leaving DU on an island......
04-05-2017 01:21 PM
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RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
Denver's academics and Olympic sports match up nicely with the Big West. Volleyball and men's soccer are two key staples. Denver and the BW spoke a few years ago, but Denver balked after they were supposedly asked for both travel subs and to add sports (baseball / softball?). If it was just the travel subs, they would probably be in the Big West today.

Denver's biggest problem finding their home out west, after their lackluster basketball program, is not sponsoring baseball and softball, coupled with the Big West and WCC's requirement of baseball. Denver can't afford either sport and cutting back on hockey or lacrosse is not an option.
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Post: #60
RE: The Next Realignment Effect on the Horizon League
(04-05-2017 01:21 PM)geef Wrote:  
(04-04-2017 11:37 AM)esayem Wrote:  When will Denver finally settle on a conference? It they had a consistent basketball team they would be a great Olympic addition to the MWC.

I can speak to this with a bit of knowledge. DU's situation isn't one of not being able to settle on a conference - it's really an issue of being a geographic oddity in nearly every sense. They're elite-level in a handful of sports - soccer (men in the Final 4 this year), lacrosse (nat'l champs 2 years ago), hockey, skiing, and gymnastics. They're very good in others, like golf and tennis, in particular. The issue is that their profile looks much more like that of a Big East or ACC school, with the exception of sub-par basketball (and no football, in the case of ACC). They jumped from the Sun Belt to the Summit primarily because it was a somewhat better fit. They have history with North Dakota St and Omaha in hockey, and the Summit has far more alumni living in metro Denver than the SBC schools did. It's still not a good fit. The administration would love to be in West Coast Conference for a number of reasons, but the WCC hasn't bitten, despite taking BYU a few years back. The best regional(ish) and cultural fit (more private schools than the Summit) may actually end up being the Missouri Valley. The problem with the MVC is that the losses of Creighton and likely Wichita State remove the two western most members of the conference, leaving DU on an island......

I would agree that DU have an issue with their sports offerings. The MVC talked to them once before but DU refused to add sports. LAX and Hockey rule at DU, soccer is strong, skiing is a niche sport offered by only a few western and eastern schools.

Not sure about the rest of your post. They left the SBC to go to the WAC. When the WAC collapsed they wanted out because they did not want to be associated with some of the schools which made up the new WAC. They moved to the Summit because it was a better fit academically and provided a good home for many of their sports. There are actually far more SBC alumni in the Denver metro then Summit alumni just by factoring in the Texas schools, and their relationship in hockey is with UND (and Omaha) not NDSU. UND will join the Summit in 2018 while Omaha have been members the past several years.

I don't see DU going to the Horizon and really can't see the MVC going to DU. My guess is that DU still want the WCC, the WCC does not seem to want them, at least they don't right now. If the WCC lose GU and or BYU they may have an outside shot. Seattle would likely be choice #1, but DU could get a peek if the WCC if it comes down to replacing two. I would venture to guess that the WCC is the only conference DU would agree to add baseball for.
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