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Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St AAC could happen in few months
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esayem Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
(03-20-2017 08:18 AM)TrojanCampaign Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 05:33 PM)msm96wolf Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 05:29 PM)Chappy Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 05:12 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  So which is it:

- AAC is trying to upgrade bball to, at least in part, appeal to UConn
- UConn is against adding yet another team that it's fans don't know and won't buy tickets to see play

??

I know, right?

04-cheers

Curious if Marshall bolts does the AAC still want WSU?

Well, they were good long before he got there......

They were not in the same galaxy. What Marshall has done is unprecedented.
03-20-2017 08:37 AM
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Chappy Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
(03-19-2017 10:43 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  It's based on that and that they rarely make deep runs in the tournament. Using this year as an example, they would've moved the number of credits from 3 to 6. Pathetic. We're better off standing pat and staying at 11 moving forward.

I can't find the amount for this year, but last year's credits were worth 265K for 6 years, or about $1.6 million.

In my book, $4.8 million split among 11 teams ($430K each) is not as good as $9.6 million split among 12 teams ($800K each).
03-20-2017 08:58 AM
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stever20 Online
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Post: #63
RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
(03-20-2017 08:58 AM)Chappy Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 10:43 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  It's based on that and that they rarely make deep runs in the tournament. Using this year as an example, they would've moved the number of credits from 3 to 6. Pathetic. We're better off standing pat and staying at 11 moving forward.

I can't find the amount for this year, but last year's credits were worth 265K for 6 years, or about $1.6 million.

In my book, $4.8 million split among 11 teams ($430K each) is not as good as $9.6 million split among 12 teams ($800K each).

The thing is, another good team does a few things....
1- probably upgrades the league where the seeds are better and maybe an extra team gets in. This helps the units out.
2- makes it where you have 12 teams. Means instead of avoiding 2 teams playing twice, you avoid 4 teams playing twice. So for the top 3-4 teams- they don't see the RPI poison pills as much. HUGE for helping the RPI of the top teams.

for UConn- instead of maybe hosting Tulane, they would host Wichita. Much better game for UConn. Instead of playing at ECU, they would go to Wichita. Huge help for the RPI.
03-20-2017 09:17 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
(03-20-2017 09:17 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 08:58 AM)Chappy Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 10:43 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  It's based on that and that they rarely make deep runs in the tournament. Using this year as an example, they would've moved the number of credits from 3 to 6. Pathetic. We're better off standing pat and staying at 11 moving forward.

I can't find the amount for this year, but last year's credits were worth 265K for 6 years, or about $1.6 million.

In my book, $4.8 million split among 11 teams ($430K each) is not as good as $9.6 million split among 12 teams ($800K each).

The thing is, another good team does a few things....
1- probably upgrades the league where the seeds are better and maybe an extra team gets in. This helps the units out.
2- makes it where you have 12 teams. Means instead of avoiding 2 teams playing twice, you avoid 4 teams playing twice. So for the top 3-4 teams- they don't see the RPI poison pills as much. HUGE for helping the RPI of the top teams.

for UConn- instead of maybe hosting Tulane, they would host Wichita. Much better game for UConn. Instead of playing at ECU, they would go to Wichita. Huge help for the RPI.

My guess is the schedule will be designed knowing who the expected top teams will be the next year. The expected top half of the league would get home and home games against each other. That maximizes the beneficial RPI affect as well as generating the most attractive TV inventory possible.
03-20-2017 09:48 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
(03-20-2017 09:48 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 09:17 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 08:58 AM)Chappy Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 10:43 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  It's based on that and that they rarely make deep runs in the tournament. Using this year as an example, they would've moved the number of credits from 3 to 6. Pathetic. We're better off standing pat and staying at 11 moving forward.

I can't find the amount for this year, but last year's credits were worth 265K for 6 years, or about $1.6 million.

In my book, $4.8 million split among 11 teams ($430K each) is not as good as $9.6 million split among 12 teams ($800K each).

The thing is, another good team does a few things....
1- probably upgrades the league where the seeds are better and maybe an extra team gets in. This helps the units out.
2- makes it where you have 12 teams. Means instead of avoiding 2 teams playing twice, you avoid 4 teams playing twice. So for the top 3-4 teams- they don't see the RPI poison pills as much. HUGE for helping the RPI of the top teams.

for UConn- instead of maybe hosting Tulane, they would host Wichita. Much better game for UConn. Instead of playing at ECU, they would go to Wichita. Huge help for the RPI.

My guess is the schedule will be designed knowing who the expected top teams will be the next year. The expected top half of the league would get home and home games against each other. That maximizes the beneficial RPI affect as well as generating the most attractive TV inventory possible.

... and then when the expected top teams aren't the actual top teams, it blows up in the face. None of these teams are Duke/North Carolina/Kentucky types that you can set your watch by.

To me, the whole Wichita State thing just reeks of desperation and haphazard, knee-jerk decision making.
(This post was last modified: 03-20-2017 10:07 AM by quo vadis.)
03-20-2017 10:07 AM
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stever20 Online
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Post: #66
RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
(03-20-2017 10:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 09:48 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 09:17 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 08:58 AM)Chappy Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 10:43 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  It's based on that and that they rarely make deep runs in the tournament. Using this year as an example, they would've moved the number of credits from 3 to 6. Pathetic. We're better off standing pat and staying at 11 moving forward.

I can't find the amount for this year, but last year's credits were worth 265K for 6 years, or about $1.6 million.

In my book, $4.8 million split among 11 teams ($430K each) is not as good as $9.6 million split among 12 teams ($800K each).

The thing is, another good team does a few things....
1- probably upgrades the league where the seeds are better and maybe an extra team gets in. This helps the units out.
2- makes it where you have 12 teams. Means instead of avoiding 2 teams playing twice, you avoid 4 teams playing twice. So for the top 3-4 teams- they don't see the RPI poison pills as much. HUGE for helping the RPI of the top teams.

for UConn- instead of maybe hosting Tulane, they would host Wichita. Much better game for UConn. Instead of playing at ECU, they would go to Wichita. Huge help for the RPI.

My guess is the schedule will be designed knowing who the expected top teams will be the next year. The expected top half of the league would get home and home games against each other. That maximizes the beneficial RPI affect as well as generating the most attractive TV inventory possible.

... and then when the expected top teams aren't the actual top teams, it blows up in the face. None of these teams are Duke/North Carolina/Kentucky types that you can set your watch by.

To me, the whole Wichita State thing just reeks of desperation and haphazard, knee-jerk decision making.

I think going to 12 makes a lot of sense. Part of it is you can set your watch by certain teams in the conference not being good. Having 12 eliminates top teams from seeing them twice.

And I would argue that a team like Cincy right now you can set your watch by. They have made the tourney now in 7 straight years. Wichita 6 straight years. So for those 2 teams to avoid seeing teams like Tulane and USF- that's going to be goodness for them.
03-20-2017 10:23 AM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
(03-20-2017 10:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 09:48 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 09:17 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 08:58 AM)Chappy Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 10:43 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  It's based on that and that they rarely make deep runs in the tournament. Using this year as an example, they would've moved the number of credits from 3 to 6. Pathetic. We're better off standing pat and staying at 11 moving forward.

I can't find the amount for this year, but last year's credits were worth 265K for 6 years, or about $1.6 million.

In my book, $4.8 million split among 11 teams ($430K each) is not as good as $9.6 million split among 12 teams ($800K each).

The thing is, another good team does a few things....
1- probably upgrades the league where the seeds are better and maybe an extra team gets in. This helps the units out.
2- makes it where you have 12 teams. Means instead of avoiding 2 teams playing twice, you avoid 4 teams playing twice. So for the top 3-4 teams- they don't see the RPI poison pills as much. HUGE for helping the RPI of the top teams.

for UConn- instead of maybe hosting Tulane, they would host Wichita. Much better game for UConn. Instead of playing at ECU, they would go to Wichita. Huge help for the RPI.

My guess is the schedule will be designed knowing who the expected top teams will be the next year. The expected top half of the league would get home and home games against each other. That maximizes the beneficial RPI affect as well as generating the most attractive TV inventory possible.

... and then when the expected top teams aren't the actual top teams, it blows up in the face. None of these teams are Duke/North Carolina/Kentucky types that you can set your watch by.

To me, the whole Wichita State thing just reeks of desperation and haphazard, knee-jerk decision making.

When the Big East took Tulane, that started happening. If the AAC wanted Wichita St for fb, you might have a valid point.
03-20-2017 10:39 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
(03-20-2017 10:07 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 09:48 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 09:17 AM)stever20 Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 08:58 AM)Chappy Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 10:43 PM)DefCONNOne Wrote:  It's based on that and that they rarely make deep runs in the tournament. Using this year as an example, they would've moved the number of credits from 3 to 6. Pathetic. We're better off standing pat and staying at 11 moving forward.

I can't find the amount for this year, but last year's credits were worth 265K for 6 years, or about $1.6 million.

In my book, $4.8 million split among 11 teams ($430K each) is not as good as $9.6 million split among 12 teams ($800K each).

The thing is, another good team does a few things....
1- probably upgrades the league where the seeds are better and maybe an extra team gets in. This helps the units out.
2- makes it where you have 12 teams. Means instead of avoiding 2 teams playing twice, you avoid 4 teams playing twice. So for the top 3-4 teams- they don't see the RPI poison pills as much. HUGE for helping the RPI of the top teams.

for UConn- instead of maybe hosting Tulane, they would host Wichita. Much better game for UConn. Instead of playing at ECU, they would go to Wichita. Huge help for the RPI.

My guess is the schedule will be designed knowing who the expected top teams will be the next year. The expected top half of the league would get home and home games against each other. That maximizes the beneficial RPI affect as well as generating the most attractive TV inventory possible.

... and then when the expected top teams aren't the actual top teams, it blows up in the face. None of these teams are Duke/North Carolina/Kentucky types that you can set your watch by.

To me, the whole Wichita State thing just reeks of desperation and haphazard, knee-jerk decision making.

lol. You generally get what you pay for in college sports. Financial commitment tends to be fairly predictive of outcome at the G5 level. Additionally, you'll know a year ahead of time who is returning for each team.

So, you're looking at a conference where UConn, Memphis, Temple, Cincy, and SMU are going to pour enough money into basketball that they are going to regularly compete for a bid. Wichita would be another team that matches that description. Its just a matter of looking at the middle tier to see who might be the best to get home-and homes vs some of the group above (if needed).

If you miss with the handful of mid tier vs top tier games needed to balance the schedule--you miss. It wont be the end of the world as long as most of the above group get home and homes against one another. As for "reeking of desperation"....we are a 12 football/11-basketball league. Adding one solid basketball program who has exhibited strong fan support, good performance, and a high investment level---isn't desperate. It would seem to a be a prudent move to help support the top tier of basketball programs in the league and to cement the conference's position as a multi-bid league.
(This post was last modified: 03-20-2017 10:54 AM by Attackcoog.)
03-20-2017 10:48 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
AAC's problem isn't the lack of basketball programs, it's the emphasis on football those programs made at the expense of their basketball, or the inability to reconcile scheduling in the non-conference.

Like, I don't envy Temple's situation. I think, for them, to retain their basketball identity, they had to either drop more of the major games they could book (which Temple was fantastic at doing) or beef up their non-conference with as much of the A10 as possible, keeping in mind that four of their games are already set for them. That's just really difficult to pull off. I don't know if going to the AAC will ultimately be the best move they could have made for all of their athletics, but I think Temple basketball was more pronounced in the A10, and that they got more freedom in that old conference because they kind of had two extra non-conference games they now don't, with St. Joe's and La Salle. And, while it wasn't like everyone in the A10 was a monster program, I don't know how ECU, Tulane, and some of the others line up against Fordham, George Mason, or Duquesne. At least with the A10, your bottom was still a good regional tie for recruiting. I doubt Temple will be reaping recruits from the Carolinas, Florida and Texarkana.
(This post was last modified: 03-20-2017 11:06 AM by The Cutter of Bish.)
03-20-2017 11:03 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
(03-20-2017 11:03 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  AAC's problem isn't the lack of basketball programs, it's the emphasis on football those programs made at the expense of their basketball, or the inability to reconcile scheduling in the non-conference.

Like, I don't envy Temple's situation. I think, for them, to retain their basketball identity, they had to either drop more of the major games they could book (which Temple was fantastic at doing) or beef up their non-conference with as much of the A10 as possible, keeping in mind that four of their games are already set for them. That's just really difficult to pull off. I don't know if going to the AAC will ultimately be the best move they could have made for all of their athletics, but I think Temple basketball was more pronounced in the A10, and that they got more freedom in that old conference because they kind of had two extra non-conference games they now don't, with St. Joe's and La Salle. And, while it wasn't like everyone in the A10 was a monster program, I don't know how ECU, Tulane, and some of the others line up against Fordham, George Mason, or Duquesne. At least with the A10, your bottom was still a good regional tie for recruiting. I doubt Temple will be reaping recruits from the Carolinas, Florida and Texarkana.

I dont know if its that bad. Lets look at Temples current situation (which would be similar to anyone in the AAC). You have an 18 game conference schedule (just like the A10). Temple would have solid games vs UConn, Memphis, Cinci, and SMU (that's likely 8 of their games). Then the middle tier of the AAC (Tulsa, Houston, and UCF) represent decent games (probably 6 more of their games)---so that isn't too bad either. So, the big issue is the games against USF, Tulane, and ECU (somewhere between 3-6 games). Basically, 8 of 11 teams are investing big dollars and showing significant financial support of their basketball programs. Those programs are looking pretty good and form the basis of a solid basketball league.

So, their conference schedule situation isn't really that bad. Additionally, that pretty decent situation improves significantly with an extra couple of games with Wichita. So, Temple isn't in a bad spot in my opinion. Temples issue isn't really the financial commitment of the league to basketball or their conference schedule. Temples issue of late is how they are doing against that schedule. I think they will be fine.
(This post was last modified: 03-20-2017 12:07 PM by Attackcoog.)
03-20-2017 11:59 AM
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1845 Bear Offline
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Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
With one partial member in football and a nonfb member acting as one de-facto full member it's one heck of an add for the AAC. Nationally relevant brand names in each major sport, saves on travel costs, upgrades the league competitively, and adds NCAA credits. I've been saying for a while 1-3 nonfb teams makes sense for them
03-20-2017 12:05 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
(03-20-2017 10:39 AM)NoDak Wrote:  When the Big East took Tulane, that started happening. If the AAC wanted Wichita St for fb, you might have a valid point.

I think this is a great point.

You started with a core of six football teams from the Big East: UConn, Rutgers, Temple, Louisville, Cincy, South Florida.
Added four more from CUSA to get to 10 for that 2013 season: Houston, Memphis, SMU, UCF

Rutgers and Louisville get golden tickets, so you add three more from the CUSA for the 2014 season: ECU, Tulane, Tulsa. Then Navy football-only a year later for divisions and a CCG.


I really don't see how WSU non-football is a much worse move than adding Tulane and ECU!
03-20-2017 12:08 PM
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Post: #73
RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
(03-19-2017 06:30 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 06:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If the goal is to establish the American as the clear top conference outside of the big 6 than you can't let Dayton and VCU stay in the Atlantic 10.

Agreed ... but now you're causing the same football vs basketball struggle that sunk the original Big East.

Thinking the big football programs in AAC don't want more than one non-G5 established football school invited.

You're forgetting that the basketball schools are the ones that left. The football side (at least, UConn and UC) both really liked having the basketball schools on board.
03-20-2017 12:39 PM
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Post: #74
RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
OK, so that's three current AAC teams that lived in the hybrid Big East at least for some time: UConn, Cincy, and S Florida.
03-20-2017 12:47 PM
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RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
(03-20-2017 11:03 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  AAC's problem isn't the lack of basketball programs, it's the emphasis on football those programs made at the expense of their basketball, or the inability to reconcile scheduling in the non-conference.

Like, I don't envy Temple's situation. I think, for them, to retain their basketball identity, they had to either drop more of the major games they could book (which Temple was fantastic at doing) or beef up their non-conference with as much of the A10 as possible, keeping in mind that four of their games are already set for them. That's just really difficult to pull off. I don't know if going to the AAC will ultimately be the best move they could have made for all of their athletics, but I think Temple basketball was more pronounced in the A10, and that they got more freedom in that old conference because they kind of had two extra non-conference games they now don't, with St. Joe's and La Salle. And, while it wasn't like everyone in the A10 was a monster program, I don't know how ECU, Tulane, and some of the others line up against Fordham, George Mason, or Duquesne. At least with the A10, your bottom was still a good regional tie for recruiting. I doubt Temple will be reaping recruits from the Carolinas, Florida and Texarkana.

Temple's current struggles are self-inflicted and started before they left the A10. Dunphy struggled with consistency in recruiting which is why McKie was added to the staff. Also, Dunphy's teams haven't won games when they've gotten to the tournament which has hurt recruiting and attendance.

Temple's OOC SOS hasn't been any different in the AAC than in the A10. Hard as it is to believe Temple had wins against WVU and FSU this season. As far as in-conference goes the A10 has had its share of 300+ rpi teams such as Fordham and Duquesne. Their bottom is no better than the AAC's. Temple's primary recruiting footprint hasn't changed and Temple has long brought in some players from beyond that area. They have two kids from NC in next year's class and Temple has recruited FL over the years, Will Cummings for example. Hopefully next season they'll have enough depth and talent to be able to get back on track and stay there.

You didnt mention this but I don't want to have to add a second quote.

The A10 has managed in-conference scheduling to limit the number of games the projected top teams play against the projected bottom teams in a given season. They also have long had, and most importantly enforced, OOC scheduling guidelines. It's worked well for the A10 and could work for the AAC too.
03-20-2017 01:02 PM
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Post: #76
RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
Wichita St would be a great addition to the AAC

They already have built-in ties with several schools (Tulsa, SMU, Houston) regionally

If that happened you could imagine Marshall staying
03-20-2017 01:50 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
(03-20-2017 11:03 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  AAC's problem isn't the lack of basketball programs, it's the emphasis on football those programs made at the expense of their basketball, or the inability to reconcile scheduling in the non-conference.

That happens because on a G5 budget, you can't do everything, you have a lot more either/or choices than a P5 has to make with their money gusher revenue streams.

I'd love for USF to be good in football and hoops, but if there's only enough money for one to be good, i'd rather it be football.
03-20-2017 02:43 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
(03-20-2017 01:02 PM)LostInSpace Wrote:  Temple's OOC SOS hasn't been any different in the AAC than in the A10.

I think that's the give and take of moving out of A10, though. St. Joe's, usually a decent opponent, and La Salle (YMMV) move from conference to non-conference.

Temple gets Villanova, Penn, La Salle, and St. Joe's now as part of the non-conference. Sprinkle in FSU and WVU types, and no wonder the metrics remain good. It's not that there's a drop-off with the non-conference, but that they don't have the wiggle room they once had to schedule more toward their recruiting centers.

I don't think Temple's in a bad spot, but you traded a good regional fit for them for something a bit scattered. Granted, they pick up some historical contributors like UConn, Cincinnati, and Memphis, but they aren't playing games in NYC and the Beltway anymore, let alone as many games in western PA (not just Duquesne but Penn State, too). There's just a little less flexibility.
03-20-2017 03:29 PM
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RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
(03-20-2017 03:29 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 01:02 PM)LostInSpace Wrote:  Temple's OOC SOS hasn't been any different in the AAC than in the A10.

I think that's the give and take of moving out of A10, though. St. Joe's, usually a decent opponent, and La Salle (YMMV) move from conference to non-conference.

Temple gets Villanova, Penn, La Salle, and St. Joe's now as part of the non-conference. Sprinkle in FSU and WVU types, and no wonder the metrics remain good. It's not that there's a drop-off with the non-conference, but that they don't have the wiggle room they once had to schedule more toward their recruiting centers.

I don't think Temple's in a bad spot, but you traded a good regional fit for them for something a bit scattered. Granted, they pick up some historical contributors like UConn, Cincinnati, and Memphis, but they aren't playing games in NYC and the Beltway anymore, let alone as many games in western PA (not just Duquesne but Penn State, too). There's just a little less flexibility.

Temple spent four decades trying to get its revenue sports into a single conference. I don't think you can underestimate the importance to Temple of finally achieving that goal. Add in the fact that the A10 had become a poor institutional fit, plus the huge loss of Xavier and I don't think anyone at Temple regrets the move.

Temple played at Barclays this season and I'm not sure how much playing in front of 832 people at Rose Hill helps recruiting. My understanding is that Chambers doesn't want to schedule Temple becuase prior to Chambers the two teams did meet periodically and Temple has never recruited Western PA much. Since joining the AAC Temple's prime recruiting area has remained New York to Virginia. About 3/4 of next year's roster comes from that footprint.

Temple was obligated to four games against MAC opponents annually before joining the BE/AAC. Temple has more flexibility because it has two fewer total committed OOC games and they aren't locked into two road games vs the MAC either.
03-20-2017 04:30 PM
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BigHouston Offline
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Posts: 9,906
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I Root For: Houston, USC
Location: Houston Tx
Post: #80
RE: Pete Thamel of SI saying Wichita St/AAC could happen in few months
I don't oppose the Wichita State to the AAC move rumor at all... I think in many ways it helps both them and the league significantly.

If Wichita State can attract a pretty good crowd from their current home conference lineup, I ask myself what their fans reaction be if for example their opponents all of a sudden are these -

UConn Cincinnati Memphis Temple SMU Houston (I know long ways to go in mirroring it's great rich history but may have finally be turning the corner, competitiveness wise.)

Tulsa (improving)
UCF (improving)
USF (improving)

I like it
03-20-2017 05:49 PM
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