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Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
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johnbragg Online
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Post: #61
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-19-2017 09:03 AM)chargeradio Wrote:  The real elephant in the room is are there eight Division II schools who would be perfectly capable of competing in Division I but can't due to the lack of an invitation? With Division I being invite-only, this effectively caps the number of schools in Division I.

Depends on what the standard is for "competing in Division I." Existing at a WAC/ MEAC/ Atlantic Sun/ Northeast Conference level? You could probably find 10 or 20 schools who could do so.

But do they have the ambition or desire to? If so, are they burning up the WAC/A-Sun or MAAC or Big West office phones?
03-19-2017 09:17 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-19-2017 08:16 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  It seems to me that the NCAA set a precedent with the Big East situation. Whether it was achieved by a waiver or however comes down to splitting hairs. The point remains that a conference got over bloated and by that point most of the schools who caused it were gone so the NCAA allowed the divorce to occur.

Some posters on here have tried to blame C-USA for the problems that exist within the league but I see them more as a victim of conference raiding that occurred a few tiers up with the Power 5. When C-USA was trying to replace schools that were leaving they had no way to foresee what their end results were going to be because they we forced to react. Individual schools were lobbying for schools that met their needs and some of the schools who were doing that lobbying ended up bailing before it was all over. For instance, would UTEP, Rice, UAB, USM, and Marshall added ODU and Charlotte had ECU not insisted on having regional rivals? In fact if those 5 schools would have known they were going to be the last 5 left of that league they might not have even wanted to keep it alive--Rice and UTEP could have found refuge in the MWC, UAB and USM in the SBC, and Marshall in the MAC.

Part of the reason CUSA gets the blame is because CUSA walked away from the MW-CUSA merger. Is there any question that the old leftover CUSA teams would have been better off in a league with the remaining MW schools? Not only that---but when Boise and SDSU returned---the remaining CUSA schools would likely be looking at a 2 million a school pay day rather than their current $200K and a MUCH better TV exposure situation. That decision to abort the merger will be haunting S Miss, Rice, Marshall, etc, for quite some time.

After Tulsa, Tulane, and ECU left, there still would have even been places for some of the newer CUSA faces in the merger---and there likely would have been no need to take move ups or start from scratch programs. I think the merger was their best way forward--but a different school of thought prevailed in 2012.
(This post was last modified: 03-19-2017 01:06 PM by Attackcoog.)
03-19-2017 01:04 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-19-2017 01:04 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 08:16 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  It seems to me that the NCAA set a precedent with the Big East situation. Whether it was achieved by a waiver or however comes down to splitting hairs. The point remains that a conference got over bloated and by that point most of the schools who caused it were gone so the NCAA allowed the divorce to occur.

Some posters on here have tried to blame C-USA for the problems that exist within the league but I see them more as a victim of conference raiding that occurred a few tiers up with the Power 5. When C-USA was trying to replace schools that were leaving they had no way to foresee what their end results were going to be because they we forced to react. Individual schools were lobbying for schools that met their needs and some of the schools who were doing that lobbying ended up bailing before it was all over. For instance, would UTEP, Rice, UAB, USM, and Marshall added ODU and Charlotte had ECU not insisted on having regional rivals? In fact if those 5 schools would have known they were going to be the last 5 left of that league they might not have even wanted to keep it alive--Rice and UTEP could have found refuge in the MWC, UAB and USM in the SBC, and Marshall in the MAC.

Part of the reason CUSA gets the blame is because CUSA walked away from the MW-CUSA merger. Is there any question that the old leftover CUSA teams would have been better off in a league with the remaining MW schools? Not only that---but when Boise and SDSU returned---the remaining CUSA schools would likely be looking at a 2 million a school pay day rather than their current $200K and a MUCH better TV exposure situation. That decision to abort the merger will be haunting S Miss, Rice, Marshall, etc, for quite some time.

After Tulsa, Tulane, and ECU left, there still would have even been places for some of the newer CUSA faces in the merger---and there likely would have been no need to take move ups or start from scratch programs. I think the merger was their best way forward--but a different school of thought prevailed in 2012.

If I recall the decision to abandon the merger with the the MWC came down to the NCAA not allowing their merged group to keep the tournament credits of both leagues. I'm not sure who backed out or if it was mutual (both leagues announced they were adding new members on the exact same day). Had the C-USA group stuck with it UTEP and Rice would have been in an exceedingly better situation. USM, UAB, and Marshall would have had mixed feelings about the end result because they'd be geographic oddities but at least they'd be making more money. I think the end result would have been a 16 member group of:

Hawaii (FB only)
San Diego St
Fresno St
Nevada
UNLV
Boise St

Wyoming
Colorado St
Air Force
New Mexico
UTEP
Rice

USM
UAB
Marshall
A 16th school
03-19-2017 03:16 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-19-2017 03:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If I recall the decision to abandon the merger with the the MWC came down to the NCAA not allowing their merged group to keep the tournament credits of both leagues.

On internet message boards, everything seems much easier than it really is.

There would be many issues involved in "merging" leagues.

That particular issue shows that the NCAA would have treated it as if the teams from one league just joined the other with one of the two leagues dissolving. That also implies that the league deemed to have dissolved, if it was CUSA, might have lost the right to collect exit fees from the teams that had departed CUSA for the AAC, which would have been a multi-million dollar loss for the CUSA schools that were entitled to collect that money.
03-19-2017 04:57 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-19-2017 04:57 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 03:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If I recall the decision to abandon the merger with the the MWC came down to the NCAA not allowing their merged group to keep the tournament credits of both leagues.

On internet message boards, everything seems much easier than it really is.

There would be many issues involved in "merging" leagues.

That particular issue shows that the NCAA would have treated it as if the teams from one league just joined the other with one of the two leagues dissolving. That also implies that the league deemed to have dissolved, if it was CUSA, might have lost the right to collect exit fees from the teams that had departed CUSA for the AAC, which would have been a multi-million dollar loss for the CUSA schools that were entitled to collect that money.

It honestly wasn't that complicated. Pick the league that has the most credits. Then check who had the most exit fees. Then NEGOTIATE with the exiting teams. You could have ended up keeping most of the booty by working out deals that were mutually beneficial. Instead, the CUSA legacy schools got all thier exit fees/credits---and then were stuck in a league worth $200K a school. It was a bad gamble on the long term.

The commissioners had some hair brained idea they would have playoffs in football and would get 2 auto bids for Olympic sports. It was like they knew less than bulletin board posters. The whole plan had a very back of the napkin feel to it. That was the first time I wondered about how good the G5 leadership really was. They seemed a little ungrounded---like they didn't really know what they were doing.
(This post was last modified: 03-19-2017 10:08 PM by Attackcoog.)
03-19-2017 10:03 PM
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MinerInWisconsin Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-19-2017 10:03 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 04:57 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 03:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If I recall the decision to abandon the merger with the the MWC came down to the NCAA not allowing their merged group to keep the tournament credits of both leagues.

On internet message boards, everything seems much easier than it really is.

There would be many issues involved in "merging" leagues.

That particular issue shows that the NCAA would have treated it as if the teams from one league just joined the other with one of the two leagues dissolving. That also implies that the league deemed to have dissolved, if it was CUSA, might have lost the right to collect exit fees from the teams that had departed CUSA for the AAC, which would have been a multi-million dollar loss for the CUSA schools that were entitled to collect that money.

It honestly wasn't that complicated. Pick the league that has the most credits. Then check who had the most exit fees. Then NEGOTIATE with the exiting teams. You could have ended up keeping most of the booty by working out deals that were mutually beneficial. Instead, the CUSA legacy schools got all thier exit fees/credits---and then were stuck in a league worth $200K a school. It was a bad gamble on the long term.

The commissioners had some hair brained idea they would have playoffs in football and would get 2 auto bids for Olympic sports. It was like they knew less than bulletin board posters. The whole plan had a very back of the napkin feel to it. That was the first time I wondered about how good the G5 leadership really was. They seemed a little ungrounded---like they didn't really know what they were doing.

Agree with all that and it was so disappointing to UTEP fans because our AD and even our Prez were vocal about how good this was going to be, a done deal in their words, because UTEP would have been reunited with old rivals and still have the Texas schools in C-USA. The best of both worlds for UTEP. The AD and Prez seemed to have a real lack of knowledge of the workings of the NCAA.

If there was an agreement between the 2 leagues that there was a real benefit to merging, they could easily have kept 2 separate Olympic/basketball leagues and have all the football teams as members of 1 of the 2 conferences. Keep the basketball and Olympic bids for each league that way, had scheduling and media agreements, etc.
03-20-2017 07:11 AM
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Post: #67
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-19-2017 03:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If I recall the decision to abandon the merger with the the MWC came down to the NCAA not allowing their merged group to keep the tournament credits of both leagues. I'm not sure who backed out or if it was mutual (both leagues announced they were adding new members on the exact same day). Had the C-USA group stuck with it UTEP and Rice would have been in an exceedingly better situation. USM, UAB, and Marshall would have had mixed feelings about the end result because they'd be geographic oddities but at least they'd be making more money.

As far as keeping tournament credits, the only credits at risk would be those from teams that had previously left their league. Even then, if the combined group agreed to merge into one of the existing leagues, it would have allowed the combined group to keep the credits from the departed schools from the league with the highest number of credits from former members. Moving forward, of course, there would be only one automatic bid, as compared to two as separate conferences.
03-20-2017 08:55 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-19-2017 10:03 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  The commissioners had some hair brained idea they would have playoffs in football and would get 2 auto bids for Olympic sports. It was like they knew less than bulletin board posters.

That would be another obstacle to a "merger". Having a single autobid in every sport for a conference of 20-plus schools would be very unattractive. That's probably why their concept was to find a way to preserve each league's existing autobid. But, you could theoretically do that by not merging the conferences and just having the members of CUSA become football-only affiliate members of the MWC.
03-20-2017 09:19 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-20-2017 09:19 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 10:03 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  The commissioners had some hair brained idea they would have playoffs in football and would get 2 auto bids for Olympic sports. It was like they knew less than bulletin board posters.

That would be another obstacle to a "merger". Having a single autobid in every sport for a conference of 20-plus schools would be very unattractive. That's probably why their concept was to find a way to preserve each league's existing autobid. But, you could theoretically do that by not merging the conferences and just having the members of CUSA become football-only affiliate members of the MWC.

Exactly. There were lots of ways to do it. Instead, they both added schools to become more regional conferences. I've always felt like that was a mistake.
03-20-2017 09:39 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-20-2017 07:11 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 10:03 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 04:57 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 03:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If I recall the decision to abandon the merger with the the MWC came down to the NCAA not allowing their merged group to keep the tournament credits of both leagues.

On internet message boards, everything seems much easier than it really is.

There would be many issues involved in "merging" leagues.

That particular issue shows that the NCAA would have treated it as if the teams from one league just joined the other with one of the two leagues dissolving. That also implies that the league deemed to have dissolved, if it was CUSA, might have lost the right to collect exit fees from the teams that had departed CUSA for the AAC, which would have been a multi-million dollar loss for the CUSA schools that were entitled to collect that money.

It honestly wasn't that complicated. Pick the league that has the most credits. Then check who had the most exit fees. Then NEGOTIATE with the exiting teams. You could have ended up keeping most of the booty by working out deals that were mutually beneficial. Instead, the CUSA legacy schools got all thier exit fees/credits---and then were stuck in a league worth $200K a school. It was a bad gamble on the long term.

The commissioners had some hair brained idea they would have playoffs in football and would get 2 auto bids for Olympic sports. It was like they knew less than bulletin board posters. The whole plan had a very back of the napkin feel to it. That was the first time I wondered about how good the G5 leadership really was. They seemed a little ungrounded---like they didn't really know what they were doing.

Agree with all that and it was so disappointing to UTEP fans because our AD and even our Prez were vocal about how good this was going to be, a done deal in their words, because UTEP would have been reunited with old rivals and still have the Texas schools in C-USA. The best of both worlds for UTEP. The AD and Prez seemed to have a real lack of knowledge of the workings of the NCAA.

If there was an agreement between the 2 leagues that there was a real benefit to merging, they could easily have kept 2 separate Olympic/basketball leagues and have all the football teams as members of 1 of the 2 conferences. Keep the basketball and Olympic bids for each league that way, had scheduling and media agreements, etc.

It was going to be a really good thing for UTEP. In fall 2011, I remember thinking I would be fine either way. If the we didn't get a BE invite, I thought the "Alliance" would end up being an interesting league to play in. I would have been pretty disappointed when the merger fell apart if we had stayed in CUSA.
03-20-2017 09:44 AM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-20-2017 09:44 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 07:11 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 10:03 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 04:57 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(03-19-2017 03:16 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If I recall the decision to abandon the merger with the the MWC came down to the NCAA not allowing their merged group to keep the tournament credits of both leagues.

On internet message boards, everything seems much easier than it really is.

There would be many issues involved in "merging" leagues.

That particular issue shows that the NCAA would have treated it as if the teams from one league just joined the other with one of the two leagues dissolving. That also implies that the league deemed to have dissolved, if it was CUSA, might have lost the right to collect exit fees from the teams that had departed CUSA for the AAC, which would have been a multi-million dollar loss for the CUSA schools that were entitled to collect that money.

It honestly wasn't that complicated. Pick the league that has the most credits. Then check who had the most exit fees. Then NEGOTIATE with the exiting teams. You could have ended up keeping most of the booty by working out deals that were mutually beneficial. Instead, the CUSA legacy schools got all thier exit fees/credits---and then were stuck in a league worth $200K a school. It was a bad gamble on the long term.

The commissioners had some hair brained idea they would have playoffs in football and would get 2 auto bids for Olympic sports. It was like they knew less than bulletin board posters. The whole plan had a very back of the napkin feel to it. That was the first time I wondered about how good the G5 leadership really was. They seemed a little ungrounded---like they didn't really know what they were doing.

Agree with all that and it was so disappointing to UTEP fans because our AD and even our Prez were vocal about how good this was going to be, a done deal in their words, because UTEP would have been reunited with old rivals and still have the Texas schools in C-USA. The best of both worlds for UTEP. The AD and Prez seemed to have a real lack of knowledge of the workings of the NCAA.

If there was an agreement between the 2 leagues that there was a real benefit to merging, they could easily have kept 2 separate Olympic/basketball leagues and have all the football teams as members of 1 of the 2 conferences. Keep the basketball and Olympic bids for each league that way, had scheduling and media agreements, etc.

It was going to be a really good thing for UTEP. In fall 2011, I remember thinking I would be fine either way. If the we didn't get a BE invite, I thought the "Alliance" would end up being an interesting league to play in. I would have been pretty disappointed when the merger fell apart if we had stayed in CUSA.

I was excited for it too...for ECU. While the talks about this were going on, ECU was firmly still in CUSA still. Coogs looked like they'd be moving on, but ECU would've played a couple years in this line up. I remember being pumped to play against Boise in football until hearing Boise was leaving too. I still wanted it to happen though. UTEP without question was the one hurt most by this not happening. Then Rice.
Cheers!
03-20-2017 10:34 AM
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johnbragg Online
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Post: #72
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
Just because I'm being a total buzzkill lately on the board, another reason the merger was kind of a wet fart was the idea that the Alliance would be able to command some huge television contract. The lawyers and the TV folks got to the commissioners and ADs, and pretty much explained that it was legally very challenging, and even if the Alliance went to market there wasn't a huge pot of gold at the end of that rainbow.
03-20-2017 11:14 AM
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Attackcoog Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-20-2017 11:14 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  Just because I'm being a total buzzkill lately on the board, another reason the merger was kind of a wet fart was the idea that the Alliance would be able to command some huge television contract. The lawyers and the TV folks got to the commissioners and ADs, and pretty much explained that it was legally very challenging, and even if the Alliance went to market there wasn't a huge pot of gold at the end of that rainbow.

Probably true. But "pot of gold" is a relative term now that CUSA has its $200K a team contract in hand. The likelihood is those legacy CUSA teams would likely be looking at a payout closer to the MW with a national TV contract offering exposure similar to the current MW contract. Id bet those CUSA AD's would like a "do over".
(This post was last modified: 03-20-2017 11:28 AM by Attackcoog.)
03-20-2017 11:27 AM
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Post: #74
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-20-2017 07:11 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  it was so disappointing to UTEP fans because our AD and even our Prez were vocal about how good this was going to be, a done deal in their words, because UTEP would have been reunited with old rivals and still have the Texas schools in C-USA. The best of both worlds for UTEP.

UTEP just needs to get back with its WAC rivals and join the MWC. Take UTSA and Rice with you, for 14.

NM St can take UTEP's spot in the CUSA.
03-20-2017 12:38 PM
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Attackcoog Offline
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RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-20-2017 12:38 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(03-20-2017 07:11 AM)MinerInWisconsin Wrote:  it was so disappointing to UTEP fans because our AD and even our Prez were vocal about how good this was going to be, a done deal in their words, because UTEP would have been reunited with old rivals and still have the Texas schools in C-USA. The best of both worlds for UTEP.

UTEP just needs to get back with its WAC rivals and join the MWC. Take UTSA and Rice with you, for 14.

NM St can take UTEP's spot in the CUSA.

I suspect in that event, CUSA would take the opportunity to tighten its current footprint by about 700 miles. Texas St, Arky St, ULL, or several other SB teams would be more convenient options for the remaining members than NM St (assuming they even bothered to replace them at all--they might just stand pat at 12).
(This post was last modified: 03-20-2017 03:22 PM by Attackcoog.)
03-20-2017 03:21 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
Perhaps. Then maybe in that case, it provides an opening for NM St and MO St to join the Sun Belt.
03-20-2017 03:26 PM
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Post: #77
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
(03-20-2017 11:14 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  Just because I'm being a total buzzkill lately on the board, another reason the merger was kind of a wet fart was the idea that the Alliance would be able to command some huge television contract. The lawyers and the TV folks got to the commissioners and ADs, and pretty much explained that it was legally very challenging, and even if the Alliance went to market there wasn't a huge pot of gold at the end of that rainbow.

How much money were they thinking they'd get before they had to go home and change underwear because of the wet fart (shart) ?

Cheers!
(This post was last modified: 03-20-2017 03:46 PM by billybobby777.)
03-20-2017 03:42 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
I realize that the whole CUSA/MWC merger was a giant wet fart. Like going to a friends wedding in your best suit, sharting, and then slinking out of the church to go home. Embarrassing. But CUSA's current predicament is worse. Like being the groom at your own wedding with explosive diarrhea, ripping out a loud fart as the Minister is about to ask you to put a ring on it, and attempting that and trying to say "I do" with boxers and a tuxedo full of sh!t, a rancid order filling up the room and a suddenly hesitant Bride looking at you in horror.
Cheers!
03-20-2017 03:58 PM
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Post: #79
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
I still laugh at this dumpster fire because CUSA fans were so arrogant and rude when expansion was happening. It makes it even more funny that the SBC has arguably been better than CUSA.
03-20-2017 04:00 PM
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Post: #80
RE: Would C-USA be better off splitting up?
Arguably? The SBC has been better than C-USA, in football at least. C-USA overexpanded. I get the rationale but they still overexpanded.
03-20-2017 04:17 PM
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