(03-10-2017 04:09 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:52 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:43 PM)stepfordowl Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:37 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:34 PM)stepfordowl Wrote:  Well thanks confirming that fact. They were found guilty during the season however conveniently allowed to finish out the season. So can we now at least admit the other stuff about what was said to players and other behavior isn't made up and has credibility.

Actually, it is my understanding that they were charged during the middle of the season, but not found guilty (after their cases were heard and ruled upon) until after Spring semester classes had ended.

Do you still believe in the Easter Bunny. The hearing was delayed until after the season. And no it was not in the middle of the semester they were caught but the beginning even before the start os the season. Actually during scrimmages. I only wanted to prove the other more concerning stuff was legit. Let's move past these kids violating the honor code. Although it does show a program slightly more out of control than just on the field. It also happened a second time after that with another player.

It doesn't prove the other stuff. For all we know you could have been one of the football players who were rumored to have turned the baseball players in.

Walt, I generally support your baseball posts with regard to programmatic issues.

But this post confuses me. I'm not sure (1) why we would repeat rumors about who turned someone in for Honor Code issues, and (2) why your post seems to imply (and I may be reading your wrong, so apologies in advance if I am) that someone turning someone in should be criticized . . . isn't that part of the expectation of following the Honor Code . . . or am I just recalling the West Point Code ( . . "nor will I tolerate those who do."

No, Rick, my point was that IF it was a football player who had intimate knowledge of the honor code incident that does not prove that he is credible on some of his other Graham-axing stories. In fact, if he's a Bailiff supporter, he could actually take pleasure in grinding his axe against another coach.

(03-10-2017 04:13 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  In fact, if he's a Bailiff supporter, he could actually take pleasure in grinding his axe against another coach.

Wtf logic is this

(03-10-2017 04:18 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 04:13 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  In fact, if he's a Bailiff supporter, he could actually take pleasure in grinding his axe against another coach.

Wtf logic is this

That Walt logic.

Everything is anti or pro-DB.

(03-10-2017 04:13 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 04:09 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:52 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:43 PM)stepfordowl Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:37 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  Actually, it is my understanding that they were charged during the middle of the season, but not found guilty (after their cases were heard and ruled upon) until after Spring semester classes had ended.

Do you still believe in the Easter Bunny. The hearing was delayed until after the season. And no it was not in the middle of the semester they were caught but the beginning even before the start os the season. Actually during scrimmages. I only wanted to prove the other more concerning stuff was legit. Let's move past these kids violating the honor code. Although it does show a program slightly more out of control than just on the field. It also happened a second time after that with another player.

It doesn't prove the other stuff. For all we know you could have been one of the football players who were rumored to have turned the baseball players in.

Walt, I generally support your baseball posts with regard to programmatic issues.

But this post confuses me. I'm not sure (1) why we would repeat rumors about who turned someone in for Honor Code issues, and (2) why your post seems to imply (and I may be reading your wrong, so apologies in advance if I am) that someone turning someone in should be criticized . . . isn't that part of the expectation of following the Honor Code . . . or am I just recalling the West Point Code ( . . "nor will I tolerate those who do."

No, Rick, my point was that IF it was a football player who had intimate knowledge of the honor code incident that does not prove that he is credible on some of his other Graham-axing stories. In fact, if he's a Bailiff supporter, he could actually take pleasure in grinding his axe against another coach.

Walt that's a pretty big stretch. Graham is not responsible for Honor Code violations, the players who commit them are.

You're not implying that there is a double standard and that baseball players get preferential treatment? That would be unfair, but absent that, there would be no motivation for athletes on other teams to be upset, and even if they did, that doesn't meat the target should be Graham, it would be toward the administration and others who provide preferential treatment.

(03-10-2017 04:23 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 04:13 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 04:09 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:52 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:43 PM)stepfordowl Wrote:  Do you still believe in the Easter Bunny. The hearing was delayed until after the season. And no it was not in the middle of the semester they were caught but the beginning even before the start os the season. Actually during scrimmages. I only wanted to prove the other more concerning stuff was legit. Let's move past these kids violating the honor code. Although it does show a program slightly more out of control than just on the field. It also happened a second time after that with another player.

It doesn't prove the other stuff. For all we know you could have been one of the football players who were rumored to have turned the baseball players in.

Walt, I generally support your baseball posts with regard to programmatic issues.

But this post confuses me. I'm not sure (1) why we would repeat rumors about who turned someone in for Honor Code issues, and (2) why your post seems to imply (and I may be reading your wrong, so apologies in advance if I am) that someone turning someone in should be criticized . . . isn't that part of the expectation of following the Honor Code . . . or am I just recalling the West Point Code ( . . "nor will I tolerate those who do."

No, Rick, my point was that IF it was a football player who had intimate knowledge of the honor code incident that does not prove that he is credible on some of his other Graham-axing stories. In fact, if he's a Bailiff supporter, he could actually take pleasure in grinding his axe against another coach.

Walt that's a pretty big stretch. Graham is not responsible for Honor Code violations, the players who commit them are.

You're not implying that there is a double standard and that baseball players get preferential treatment? That would be unfair, but absent that, there would be no motivation for athletes on other teams to be upset, and even if they did, that doesn't meat the target should be Graham, it would be toward the administration and others who provide preferential treatment.

Of course I'm not implying preferential treatment. What in my comment would have you draw that conclusion? If the rumor is true that it was football players who turned in the baseball players 2 years ago, then it's not a stretch to think that other football players were probably aware of the incident. The fact that they had knowledge of the honor code violation and the circumstances around it does not mean they have credibility on all other baseball-related negative stories. That was my point.

(03-10-2017 04:27 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 04:23 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 04:13 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 04:09 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:52 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  It doesn't prove the other stuff. For all we know you could have been one of the football players who were rumored to have turned the baseball players in.

Walt, I generally support your baseball posts with regard to programmatic issues.

But this post confuses me. I'm not sure (1) why we would repeat rumors about who turned someone in for Honor Code issues, and (2) why your post seems to imply (and I may be reading your wrong, so apologies in advance if I am) that someone turning someone in should be criticized . . . isn't that part of the expectation of following the Honor Code . . . or am I just recalling the West Point Code ( . . "nor will I tolerate those who do."

No, Rick, my point was that IF it was a football player who had intimate knowledge of the honor code incident that does not prove that he is credible on some of his other Graham-axing stories. In fact, if he's a Bailiff supporter, he could actually take pleasure in grinding his axe against another coach.

Walt that's a pretty big stretch. Graham is not responsible for Honor Code violations, the players who commit them are.

You're not implying that there is a double standard and that baseball players get preferential treatment? That would be unfair, but absent that, there would be no motivation for athletes on other teams to be upset, and even if they did, that doesn't meat the target should be Graham, it would be toward the administration and others who provide preferential treatment.

Of course I'm not implying preferential treatment. What in my comment would have you draw that conclusion? If the rumor is true that it was football players who turned in the baseball players 2 years ago, then it's not a stretch to think that other football players were probably aware of the incident. The fact that they had knowledge of the honor code violation and the circumstances around it does not mean they have credibility on all other baseball-related negative stories. That was my point.

Do you have any reason to believe that our anonymous posters are football players?

(03-10-2017 03:58 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:49 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  Let me get this straight...We allow Honor Code violators to play out their season, sit out a non-competition semester, and then readmit them? (What would we say about Baylor if they allowed a football player to violate the Honor Code, play out the fall semester, kick him out for the spring semester, and then let him back in for next fall?)

But somehow we're also so much more scrupulous than our peers as to draw the line at supplementing partial athletic scholarships with merit scholarships, even though Rice's stated criteria for same ("Students whose personal talents distinguish them within the pool of admitted applicants") would clearly allow it, and that's why we've been passed by the Vanderbilts, TCUs, etc.?

A one-semester suspension is not an uncommon punishment for an Honor Code violation. As for the comparison to Baylor, give me a break. Players there are allowed to get away with felonies. The very fact that Rice holds players accountable able for cheating shows more integrity on Rice's part than Baylor and most other programs.

Then read "Baylor" as "Notre Dame" if that is less distracting to you. ND kicked Everett Golson out of school for a semester for honor code violations then let him back in. (Now, it happened to be the fall semester but I guess that is because he cheated on a test in the spring.) My point, perhaps clumsily made, was not that we did anything against the rules; it is that our own honor code dealings with athletes show that we do the same (legal) things our private academic peers do. We do not have higher standards than they do, and in reference to the scholarships issue discussed in other threads, there is nothing external preventing us from keeping up with what our competitors are doing.

(03-10-2017 02:27 PM)curve Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 02:24 PM)HawaiiOwl Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 02:12 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 02:08 PM)DirtyBirds52 Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 02:03 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Exactly.

Sorry if I think some randos with no history/credibility on the board start throwing out some pretty incendiary comments/situations don't deserve to be taken seriously, no matter how pertinent they are to the overall conversation.

Yeah sorry just one account here. Also considering you do not know who is posting I would pump the brakes on questioning their credibility.

That's the whole point I am trying to make.

I am questioning your credibility because you have given me no reason not to.

I could go make another account and start positing crap about how my alter ego saw Graham personally support player X, Y, Z and, using your logic, it would equally refute your comments.

The reason a lot of us too RiceOwl53 (I think that was his username) so seriously in the conversations about DB, was that we knew who he was and that he played under Bailiff.

With all the pitching woes, what about Pope's role in all of this? He was plucked from the HS ranks, and I believe most posters(including myself), felt it was a good hire. Maybe he is not the Messiah? What are the thoughts on his performance now??

I think we all thought (myself included) that it was going to be a good move because Coach Graham made it seem like it would be. To be fair, he has only had 14 games under his belt as a D-1 coach. But, I have never seen a pitching coach go to the bullpen once the guys start to warm up in the middle/late innings. Hallmark would run down and relay a message, but that was it. I find that a little odd...

Perhaps he thought he was going to be the pitching coach but hasn't been given the authority to do things as he wants and now has morphed into a bullpen coach. Given the disagreement on coaching hitting between Lance and Wayne maybe we are seeing the same thing here.

(03-10-2017 04:30 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 04:27 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 04:23 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 04:13 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 04:09 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  Walt, I generally support your baseball posts with regard to programmatic issues.

But this post confuses me. I'm not sure (1) why we would repeat rumors about who turned someone in for Honor Code issues, and (2) why your post seems to imply (and I may be reading your wrong, so apologies in advance if I am) that someone turning someone in should be criticized . . . isn't that part of the expectation of following the Honor Code . . . or am I just recalling the West Point Code ( . . "nor will I tolerate those who do."

No, Rick, my point was that IF it was a football player who had intimate knowledge of the honor code incident that does not prove that he is credible on some of his other Graham-axing stories. In fact, if he's a Bailiff supporter, he could actually take pleasure in grinding his axe against another coach.

Walt that's a pretty big stretch. Graham is not responsible for Honor Code violations, the players who commit them are.

You're not implying that there is a double standard and that baseball players get preferential treatment? That would be unfair, but absent that, there would be no motivation for athletes on other teams to be upset, and even if they did, that doesn't meat the target should be Graham, it would be toward the administration and others who provide preferential treatment.

Of course I'm not implying preferential treatment. What in my comment would have you draw that conclusion? If the rumor is true that it was football players who turned in the baseball players 2 years ago, then it's not a stretch to think that other football players were probably aware of the incident. The fact that they had knowledge of the honor code violation and the circumstances around it does not mean they have credibility on all other baseball-related negative stories. That was my point.

Do you have any reason to believe that our anonymous posters are football players?

LOL can we end this thread? I can list off violations by every team at Rice. There's a reason a lot of football players left this offseason. I'm fine with us treading the line in terms of academics but at least recruit good players who are on the line (Tristan Gray). As long as baseball and football don't do anything like the tennis team I'd say we are A OK.

(03-10-2017 04:27 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 04:23 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 04:13 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 04:09 PM)Rick Gerlach Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:52 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  It doesn't prove the other stuff. For all we know you could have been one of the football players who were rumored to have turned the baseball players in.

Walt, I generally support your baseball posts with regard to programmatic issues.

But this post confuses me. I'm not sure (1) why we would repeat rumors about who turned someone in for Honor Code issues, and (2) why your post seems to imply (and I may be reading your wrong, so apologies in advance if I am) that someone turning someone in should be criticized . . . isn't that part of the expectation of following the Honor Code . . . or am I just recalling the West Point Code ( . . "nor will I tolerate those who do."

No, Rick, my point was that IF it was a football player who had intimate knowledge of the honor code incident that does not prove that he is credible on some of his other Graham-axing stories. In fact, if he's a Bailiff supporter, he could actually take pleasure in grinding his axe against another coach.

Walt that's a pretty big stretch. Graham is not responsible for Honor Code violations, the players who commit them are.

You're not implying that there is a double standard and that baseball players get preferential treatment? That would be unfair, but absent that, there would be no motivation for athletes on other teams to be upset, and even if they did, that doesn't meat the target should be Graham, it would be toward the administration and others who provide preferential treatment.

Of course I'm not implying preferential treatment. What in my comment would have you draw that conclusion? If the rumor is true that it was football players who turned in the baseball players 2 years ago, then it's not a stretch to think that other football players were probably aware of the incident. The fact that they had knowledge of the honor code violation and the circumstances around it does not mean they have credibility on all other baseball-related negative stories. That was my point.

I know you weren't implying preferential treatment. That was kind of my point. There is no reason then for football players to have an axe to grind against Coach Graham. Or anyone here who happens to like Coach Bailiff as a person for that matter.

(03-10-2017 04:40 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:58 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:49 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  Let me get this straight...We allow Honor Code violators to play out their season, sit out a non-competition semester, and then readmit them? (What would we say about Baylor if they allowed a football player to violate the Honor Code, play out the fall semester, kick him out for the spring semester, and then let him back in for next fall?)

But somehow we're also so much more scrupulous than our peers as to draw the line at supplementing partial athletic scholarships with merit scholarships, even though Rice's stated criteria for same ("Students whose personal talents distinguish them within the pool of admitted applicants") would clearly allow it, and that's why we've been passed by the Vanderbilts, TCUs, etc.?

A one-semester suspension is not an uncommon punishment for an Honor Code violation. As for the comparison to Baylor, give me a break. Players there are allowed to get away with felonies. The very fact that Rice holds players accountable able for cheating shows more integrity on Rice's part than Baylor and most other programs.

Then read "Baylor" as "Notre Dame" if that is less distracting to you. ND kicked Everett Golson out of school for a semester for honor code violations then let him back in. (Now, it happened to be the fall semester but I guess that is because he cheated on a test in the spring.) My point, perhaps clumsily made, was not that we did anything against the rules; it is that our own honor code dealings with athletes show that we do the same (legal) things our private academic peers do. We do not have higher standards than they do, and in reference to the scholarships issue discussed in other threads, there is nothing external preventing us from keeping up with what our competitors are doing.

The Rice athletes received the same punishment that any student would receive. I don't disagree with your point necessarily, but the incident in question doesn't help your argument. Rice did not invent a separate category of Honor Code punishments for athletes.

Everything is related, if Rice offered better aid in kind to athletes, players would not be off campus but in the colleges where peer interaction and pressure may have headed off an honor code violation. In any case, those who violated the code, whether caught or not have to deal with their conscience. Rice as a university has a much cleaner record than many near peer institutions. If as an institution, Rice is also sweeping things under the rug, then we have bigger problems than being in a backwater conference and having a "bare bones" D1 athletic program.

(03-10-2017 05:02 PM)exowlswimmer Wrote:  Everything is related, if Rice offered better aid in kind to athletes, players would not be off campus but in the colleges where peer interaction and pressure may have headed off an honor code violation. In any case, those who violated the code, whether caught or not have to deal with their conscience. Rice as a university has a much cleaner record than many near peer institutions. If as an institution, Rice is also sweeping things under the rug, then we have bigger problems than being in a backwater conference and having a "bare bones" D1 athletic program.

HAHA so out of touch. First off those are completely unrelated. Kids in the dorms don't violate the honor code? Oh boy Second, if you think athletes don't live on campus because they don't have the $ then the athletes in your day must've been quite different (or most likely the campus). Athletes get off campus as soon as they possibly can 95% of the time. Football players have to live on for 2 years then they bolt. Graham let's his players live off (encourages*) and you don't see most of them after Oweek (exceptions like Ryan Berry). Non revenue athletes live on campus at about the same rate as everyone else I'd say. When they do live off campus they all live together (for example the swimmers have a house).

(03-10-2017 04:40 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:58 PM)Frizzy Owl Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:49 PM)illiniowl Wrote:  Let me get this straight...We allow Honor Code violators to play out their season, sit out a non-competition semester, and then readmit them? (What would we say about Baylor if they allowed a football player to violate the Honor Code, play out the fall semester, kick him out for the spring semester, and then let him back in for next fall?)

But somehow we're also so much more scrupulous than our peers as to draw the line at supplementing partial athletic scholarships with merit scholarships, even though Rice's stated criteria for same ("Students whose personal talents distinguish them within the pool of admitted applicants") would clearly allow it, and that's why we've been passed by the Vanderbilts, TCUs, etc.?

A one-semester suspension is not an uncommon punishment for an Honor Code violation. As for the comparison to Baylor, give me a break. Players there are allowed to get away with felonies. The very fact that Rice holds players accountable able for cheating shows more integrity on Rice's part than Baylor and most other programs.

Then read "Baylor" as "Notre Dame" if that is less distracting to you. ND kicked Everett Golson out of school for a semester for honor code violations then let him back in. (Now, it happened to be the fall semester but I guess that is because he cheated on a test in the spring.) My point, perhaps clumsily made, was not that we did anything against the rules; it is that our own honor code dealings with athletes show that we do the same (legal) things our private academic peers do. We do not have higher standards than they do, and in reference to the scholarships issue discussed in other threads, there is nothing external preventing us from keeping up with what our competitors are doing.

Has anyone suggested there is?

I feel like most everyone is frustrated because it is self-inflicted.

(03-10-2017 03:43 PM)stepfordowl Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:37 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:34 PM)stepfordowl Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:28 PM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 03:08 PM)stepfordowl Wrote:  Graham makes all the decisions period. Dirtybird clearly is in the know and has a handle. To give you some insight that the isn't made up. How about the Honor Code violation by some individuals who were allowed to play out the remainder of the season then transfer to a JUCO for the fall and return the following spring semester and play without penalty. Hmmmm......no I am not talking about Oklahoma under Barry Switzer but Rice. The players involved are no ones business. Not public knowledge and swept under the rug but anyone close to the program knows this happened with a couple players.

No penalty? Following administration procedures, they were all kicked out of Rice for the subsequent semester-- missing Fall Ball, and had to reapply for admission, which was not guaranteed. The baseball program did not shirk any University rules or regulations as you insinuated.

Well thanks confirming that fact. They were found guilty during the season however conveniently allowed to finish out the season. So can we now at least admit the other stuff about what was said to players and other behavior isn't made up and has credibility.

Actually, it is my understanding that they were charged during the middle of the season, but not found guilty (after their cases were heard and ruled upon) until after Spring semester classes had ended.

Do you still believe in the Easter Bunny. The hearing was delayed until after the season. And no it was not in the middle of the semester they were caught but the beginning even before the start os the season. Actually during scrimmages. I only wanted to prove the other more concerning stuff was legit. Let's move past these kids violating the honor code. Although it does show a program slightly more out of control than just on the field. It also happened a second time after that with another player.

When you are brought up before the Honor Court it takes a while before the decision is made. It would not be unusual for it to take several months to go through the process.

(03-10-2017 07:18 PM)#1RiceOwl Wrote:  When you are brought up before the Honor Court it takes a while before the decision is made. It would not be unusual for it to take several months to go through the process.

Even Bobby Knight and the IU administration knew when to move on at Indiana and he was a much greater icon. Not only at Indiana U but also in the state. Bobby Knight was not allowed to run that program into the ground and was still physically fit. The irony is they probably have very similar coaching styles. Knight could not adjust to today's players or vice versa.

(03-10-2017 07:47 PM)stepfordowl Wrote:  

(03-10-2017 07:18 PM)#1RiceOwl Wrote:  When you are brought up before the Honor Court it takes a while before the decision is made. It would not be unusual for it to take several months to go through the process.

Even Bobby Knight and the IU administration knew when to move on at Indiana and he was a much greater icon. Not only at Indiana U but also in the state. Bobby Knight was not allowed to run that program into the ground and was still physically fit. The irony is they probably have very similar coaching styles. Knight could not adjust to today's players or vice versa.

Comparing Graham to Knight??? This is Bizarro world.