The P5 I would think a good size would be 12-16k depending on the market.
Anything smaller could hold the program back arena much bigger has a lot of bad seats.

High major 6-? k some have better than P5 fan bases.

Mid-Major 5-8k they still look good on T.V.

Low-major 3-6k amenities and not looking like a high school gym is important.

Attendance has been on the decline for years having a right-sized and nice arena helps.

Coastal is hosting the ACC women's tournament right now with a 3600 seat arena.

For an elite program, 15K, give or take.

For a major program, 10K, g/t.

For everyone else, 5K g/t.

(03-04-2017 11:03 PM)MJG Wrote:  The P5 I would think a good size would be 12-16k depending on the market.
Anything smaller could hold the program back arena much bigger has a lot of bad seats.

High major 6-? k some have better than P5 fan bases.

Mid-Major 5-8k they still look good on T.V.

Low-major 3-6k amenities and not looking like a high school gym is important.

Attendance has been on the decline for years having a right-sized and nice arena helps.

Coastal is hosting the ACC women's tournament right now with a 3600 seat arena.

Duke would disagree with you. They got to 9k by cramming students in bleacher sections.

There is not a bad seat in PNC Arena (NC State 19,722) or the Smith Center (UNC 21,750). That third level at Greensboro (23,500) is awful.

The vast majority of fans come from off campus. Accessibility is equally important. People are not going to sit in traffic for 2 hours (coming and going) for a 1 hour game.

It's a case by case basis. Playing in an arena that is a little too small beats playing in an arena that is vastly too big.

(03-05-2017 10:25 AM)kreed5120 Wrote:  It's a case by case basis. Playing in an arena that is a little too small beats playing in an arena that is vastly too big.

Case in point: Millett Hall.

(03-04-2017 11:03 PM)MJG Wrote:  The P5 I would think a good size would be 12-16k depending on the market.
Anything smaller could hold the program back arena much bigger has a lot of bad seats.

High major 6-? k some have better than P5 fan bases.

Mid-Major 5-8k they still look good on T.V.

Low-major 3-6k amenities and not looking like a high school gym is important.

Attendance has been on the decline for years having a right-sized and nice arena helps.

Coastal is hosting the ACC women's tournament right now with a 3600 seat arena.

Get that crap out here!!.... "high major" "mid major" f'd up espn crap labels have NOTHING to do with arena size.
High majors like UNLV, Memphis, BYU, New Mexico, Dayton: have and need 16k to 20k.
Duke: 9k.
mid majors like TCU: have 8k, need 6k.
Low majors, historically awful programs like Oregon St, Rutgers and Northwestern require gym capacities of 3k.
Low minors like Depaul can play in local high school gyms throughout Chicago.
Start up programs like Miami could just pay rent to the local pro team in town, (like they do in football) curtain off 90% of the arena to make it more fan friendly.
Cheers!

Attendance isn't as important as design. I would rather take a smaller gym that is built on top of the court vs a bigger one that is less intimidating.

A football analogy would be Oregon vs Michigan. Michigan is the largest but many players say because of the shape it isn't as loud as it should be with 100,000+ fans. Oregon is only around 50,000 fans but is one of the loudest stadiums in the nation.

I'm happy with ISU's arena that is around 14,500.

(03-05-2017 11:45 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(03-04-2017 11:03 PM)MJG Wrote:  The P5 I would think a good size would be 12-16k depending on the market.
Anything smaller could hold the program back arena much bigger has a lot of bad seats.

High major 6-? k some have better than P5 fan bases.

Mid-Major 5-8k they still look good on T.V.

Low-major 3-6k amenities and not looking like a high school gym is important.

Attendance has been on the decline for years having a right-sized and nice arena helps.

Coastal is hosting the ACC women's tournament right now with a 3600 seat arena.

Get that crap out here!!.... "high major" "mid major" f'd up espn crap labels have NOTHING to do with arena size.
High majors like UNLV, Memphis, BYU, New Mexico, Dayton: have and need 16k to 20k.
Duke: 9k.
mid majors like TCU: have 8k, need 6k.
Low majors, historically awful programs like Oregon St, Rutgers and Northwestern require gym capacities of 3k.
Low minors like Depaul can play in local high school gyms throughout Chicago.
Start up programs like Miami could just pay rent to the local pro team in town, (like they do in football) curtain off 90% of the arena to make it more fan friendly.
Cheers!

You are right that you shouldn't base arena sizes off conferences and more on fan base size. A few things though.

1) high, mid, and low is based off conference not success.

High majors: P5 plus BE

Mid majors: AAC, A10, conferences that get more than one bid to the dance but aren't pulling in 4 plus teams

Low majors: one bid leagues

2) Oregon state is bad now but they are actually are a lot higher level than NW and Rutgers when it comes to basketball. OSU is actually a pretty good basketball program historically. They have more wins than Villanova, WVU, UCONN, and Michigan state to name a few.

(03-05-2017 12:09 PM)CyclonePower Wrote:  

(03-05-2017 11:45 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(03-04-2017 11:03 PM)MJG Wrote:  The P5 I would think a good size would be 12-16k depending on the market.
Anything smaller could hold the program back arena much bigger has a lot of bad seats.

High major 6-? k some have better than P5 fan bases.

Mid-Major 5-8k they still look good on T.V.

Low-major 3-6k amenities and not looking like a high school gym is important.

Attendance has been on the decline for years having a right-sized and nice arena helps.

Coastal is hosting the ACC women's tournament right now with a 3600 seat arena.

Get that crap out here!!.... "high major" "mid major" f'd up espn crap labels have NOTHING to do with arena size.
High majors like UNLV, Memphis, BYU, New Mexico, Dayton: have and need 16k to 20k.
Duke: 9k.
mid majors like TCU: have 8k, need 6k.
Low majors, historically awful programs like Oregon St, Rutgers and Northwestern require gym capacities of 3k.
Low minors like Depaul can play in local high school gyms throughout Chicago.
Start up programs like Miami could just pay rent to the local pro team in town, (like they do in football) curtain off 90% of the arena to make it more fan friendly.
Cheers!

You are right that you shouldn't base arena sizes off conferences and more on fan base size. A few things though.

1) high, mid, and low is based off conference not success.

High majors: P5 plus BE

Mid majors: AAC, A10, conferences that get more than one bid to the dance but aren't pulling in 4 plus teams

Low majors: one bid leagues

2) Oregon state is bad now but they are actually are a lot higher level than NW and Rutgers when it comes to basketball. OSU is actually a pretty good basketball program historically. They have more wins than Villanova, WVU, UCONN, and Michigan state to name a few.

"Low majors: one bid leagues"---MWC, MVC right? So let's take at look at the arena size needed for teams in there like Wichita St, SDSU, UNLV, UNM. 2k? 3k? So I went to ESPN and noticed that 2 mediocre teams (SDSU at UNM) in a terrible conference played last night in the regular season finale. Both teams were 16-13. Attendence was 13,958.
My point: 3k to 6k sized arenas are not big enough for schools with good fan support. For a college football example: One of Wake and ECU plays in a 50k seat stadium the other a capacity of 31,500.. Surely the "power conference" school Wake needs the 50k and lowly ECU needs the 31,500? Wrong. ECU has more fan support, thus needs the bigger venue, labels be damned.
Cheers!

Labels are misleading just a way to get the conversation started.
I think design is more important regardless of size.
Capacities on average will go down as time goes on.
A buddy got back from a recent UNC game he thinks they need a new arena.
UNC could easily build a Syracuse size arena or renovate their current one probably losing some capacity.

Idaho is planning a 4700 seat with 5000 SRO arena with a similar design to UA-Littlerock.
Some fans argue for at least six thousand seats with many wanting 8-10k.
They point to big crowds twenty years ago and one off big crowds vs WSU/BSU.
On the SBC board UALR's arena was rated number one despite several bigger arenas in the conference.
I have even seen comments from App St, BSU, ULL and other fans that want smaller arenas.
The perfect design would allow for the occasional big crowd.
While not looking too empty for the average crowd or a women's game.
A right sized sunken bowl with second level retractable seating seems like a good design.

(03-04-2017 11:03 PM)MJG Wrote:  The P5 I would think a good size would be 12-16k depending on the market.
Anything smaller could hold the program back arena much bigger has a lot of bad seats.

High major 6-? k some have better than P5 fan bases.

Mid-Major 5-8k they still look good on T.V.

Low-major 3-6k amenities and not looking like a high school gym is important.

Attendance has been on the decline for years having a right-sized and nice arena helps.

Coastal is hosting the ACC women's tournament right now with a 3600 seat arena.

I'm partial to a 35,000 person sea of orange.

Sure, there are some bad seats, but no seat in any arena is going to give me a better view than my couch. You go to games for the experience, and experiencing Syracuse on game day is awesome.

(03-05-2017 01:19 PM)nzmorange Wrote:  

(03-04-2017 11:03 PM)MJG Wrote:  The P5 I would think a good size would be 12-16k depending on the market.
Anything smaller could hold the program back arena much bigger has a lot of bad seats.

High major 6-? k some have better than P5 fan bases.

Mid-Major 5-8k they still look good on T.V.

Low-major 3-6k amenities and not looking like a high school gym is important.

Attendance has been on the decline for years having a right-sized and nice arena helps.

Coastal is hosting the ACC women's tournament right now with a 3600 seat arena.

I'm partial to a 35,000 person sea of orange.

Sure, there are some bad seats, but no seat in any arena is going to give me a better view than my couch. You go to games for the experience, and experiencing Syracuse on game day is awesome.

I thought Idaho should have added West end zone seating in the dome.
Three thousand seats fit under the truss then have portable roll up bleachers to box in the rest. A set up like that would use current dome seating behind the baskets.
The 30x50 video board would be used for hoops.
The benefit would have been increasing capacity for football and maybe staying FBS.
A practice court would need to be built and is in the current plans anyway.
A quick set up would have given flexibility in capacity along with being able to switch back and fourth. I believe only Syracuse switches from basketball to football and back to basketball in a dome in college.

(03-05-2017 12:48 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(03-05-2017 12:09 PM)CyclonePower Wrote:  

(03-05-2017 11:45 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(03-04-2017 11:03 PM)MJG Wrote:  The P5 I would think a good size would be 12-16k depending on the market.
Anything smaller could hold the program back arena much bigger has a lot of bad seats.

High major 6-? k some have better than P5 fan bases.

Mid-Major 5-8k they still look good on T.V.

Low-major 3-6k amenities and not looking like a high school gym is important.

Attendance has been on the decline for years having a right-sized and nice arena helps.

Coastal is hosting the ACC women's tournament right now with a 3600 seat arena.

Get that crap out here!!.... "high major" "mid major" f'd up espn crap labels have NOTHING to do with arena size.
High majors like UNLV, Memphis, BYU, New Mexico, Dayton: have and need 16k to 20k.
Duke: 9k.
mid majors like TCU: have 8k, need 6k.
Low majors, historically awful programs like Oregon St, Rutgers and Northwestern require gym capacities of 3k.
Low minors like Depaul can play in local high school gyms throughout Chicago.
Start up programs like Miami could just pay rent to the local pro team in town, (like they do in football) curtain off 90% of the arena to make it more fan friendly.
Cheers!

You are right that you shouldn't base arena sizes off conferences and more on fan base size. A few things though.

1) high, mid, and low is based off conference not success.

High majors: P5 plus BE

Mid majors: AAC, A10, conferences that get more than one bid to the dance but aren't pulling in 4 plus teams

Low majors: one bid leagues

2) Oregon state is bad now but they are actually are a lot higher level than NW and Rutgers when it comes to basketball. OSU is actually a pretty good basketball program historically. They have more wins than Villanova, WVU, UCONN, and Michigan state to name a few.

"Low majors: one bid leagues"---MWC, MVC right? So let's take at look at the arena size needed for teams in there like Wichita St, SDSU, UNLV, UNM. 2k? 3k? So I went to ESPN and noticed that 2 mediocre teams (SDSU at UNM) in a terrible conference played last night in the regular season finale. Both teams were 16-13. Attendence was 13,958.
My point: 3k to 6k sized arenas are not big enough for schools with good fan support. For a college football example: One of Wake and ECU plays in a 50k seat stadium the other a capacity of 31,500.. Surely the "power conference" school Wake needs the 50k and lowly ECU needs the 31,500? Wrong. ECU has more fan support, thus needs the bigger venue, labels be damned.
Cheers!

Wake is a private schools. Private schools tend to have smaller fan bases. I was making the point that arena sizes should be made off fan support. Yes ECU should have a larger arena if they bring more fans.

(03-05-2017 05:00 PM)CyclonePower Wrote:  

(03-05-2017 12:48 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(03-05-2017 12:09 PM)CyclonePower Wrote:  

(03-05-2017 11:45 AM)billybobby777 Wrote:  

(03-04-2017 11:03 PM)MJG Wrote:  The P5 I would think a good size would be 12-16k depending on the market.
Anything smaller could hold the program back arena much bigger has a lot of bad seats.

High major 6-? k some have better than P5 fan bases.

Mid-Major 5-8k they still look good on T.V.

Low-major 3-6k amenities and not looking like a high school gym is important.

Attendance has been on the decline for years having a right-sized and nice arena helps.

Coastal is hosting the ACC women's tournament right now with a 3600 seat arena.

Get that crap out here!!.... "high major" "mid major" f'd up espn crap labels have NOTHING to do with arena size.
High majors like UNLV, Memphis, BYU, New Mexico, Dayton: have and need 16k to 20k.
Duke: 9k.
mid majors like TCU: have 8k, need 6k.
Low majors, historically awful programs like Oregon St, Rutgers and Northwestern require gym capacities of 3k.
Low minors like Depaul can play in local high school gyms throughout Chicago.
Start up programs like Miami could just pay rent to the local pro team in town, (like they do in football) curtain off 90% of the arena to make it more fan friendly.
Cheers!

You are right that you shouldn't base arena sizes off conferences and more on fan base size. A few things though.

1) high, mid, and low is based off conference not success.

High majors: P5 plus BE

Mid majors: AAC, A10, conferences that get more than one bid to the dance but aren't pulling in 4 plus teams

Low majors: one bid leagues

2) Oregon state is bad now but they are actually are a lot higher level than NW and Rutgers when it comes to basketball. OSU is actually a pretty good basketball program historically. They have more wins than Villanova, WVU, UCONN, and Michigan state to name a few.

"Low majors: one bid leagues"---MWC, MVC right? So let's take at look at the arena size needed for teams in there like Wichita St, SDSU, UNLV, UNM. 2k? 3k? So I went to ESPN and noticed that 2 mediocre teams (SDSU at UNM) in a terrible conference played last night in the regular season finale. Both teams were 16-13. Attendence was 13,958.
My point: 3k to 6k sized arenas are not big enough for schools with good fan support. For a college football example: One of Wake and ECU plays in a 50k seat stadium the other a capacity of 31,500.. Surely the "power conference" school Wake needs the 50k and lowly ECU needs the 31,500? Wrong. ECU has more fan support, thus needs the bigger venue, labels be damned.
Cheers!

Wake is a private schools. Private schools tend to have smaller fan bases. I was making the point that arena sizes should be made off fan support. Yes ECU should have a larger arena if they bring more fans.

We agree then. Size of stadium is about the fan support a school reveives, not dependent on the conference they play in. One last thing, Rutgers and Oregon St may play in "power conferences" but that doesn't make them "power programs." Cincinnati and Uconn may not play in "power conferences" according to the beginning of this post, but they ARE NOT "mid-majors". It's not only insulting its stupid.
Cheers!

(03-05-2017 10:25 AM)kreed5120 Wrote:  It's a case by case basis. Playing in an arena that is a little too small beats playing in an arena that is vastly too big.

Yea, for a school like GWU, 5,000 is perfect.

I was originally concerned that NC State's arena (shared with the NHL Carolina Hurricanes) would be too big at about 19K. There is something to be said for having a waiting list for season tickets, as that demand helps you command premium prices.

Their previous home, Reynolds Coliseum, gave them a nice home court advantage, as it got very loud in their. It seated about 12K, but not all of those seats had the best sight lines. Now the Pack averages about 16K. It doesn't feel as loud as Reynolds, but it's still pretty good. Pretty much anyone who wants season tickets can get them and true sellouts are rare.

I tend to agree with the poster who pointed out how important ease of access and parking are. If State had tried to build a larger (than Reynolds) arena on campus, those things could have been a problem.