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Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
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gosports1 Offline
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Post: #101
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
(03-06-2017 05:55 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  
(03-05-2017 05:26 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  the university covered up the crimes

The university did nothing. It's just a collection of buildings.

If individuals took it upon themselves to cover up a crime, then that's just another crime. For crimes, you call in law enforcement. You don't call the NCAA.


(03-05-2017 05:26 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  NCAA can certainly punish a university for covering up a crime

Again, a university doesn't cover up a crime. An individual or multiple individuals take it upon themselves to commit crimes.

The NCAA does have rules requiring institutional control. The intention of such rules to prevent the athletic dept from preventing the university from auditing or otherwise holding the dept accountable in terms of making sure the players are eligible. Things like that.

It was never intended for crimes, or covering up crimes (which is just another crime), because the NCAA is not a branch of government law enforcement.


The NCAA tried to get involved with PSU, tried to say that PSU lacked institutional control. That was appealed and defeated, thus proving the NCAA doesn't have authority for crimes.


(03-05-2017 05:40 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  actually would have had to clean their house and not engage in the sort of incestuous, tone-deaf practices that are endemic there to this day

You make a claim that the entire area surrounding Penn St is an incestuous breeding ground ...

(03-05-2017 05:40 PM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  People discussing athletic sanctions, which are long past, are perceived as making statements tantamount to wanting "the entire Penn St U system to burn the ground."

... and then complain about hyperbole???



So fine, your hatred is two-fold: 1) you hate/hated Joe Paterno with white-hot passion, and 2) you hate the people in Central Penn, and automatically equate all Penn State alumni as incestuous morons.



Getting back to what you said ... how have they not cleaned house??

Are you saying that Franklin is under the strings of some "Illuminati of Joe" puppetmaster??

stop the games. The people that covered up the rapes were acting on behalf of the university. They represented the university. The university needs to be held accountable for the acts committed in the name of the university by those employed by the university, If you believe a university is just buildings do you also believe a corporation is also just buildings? So if there is an oil spill or chemical gas leak the corporation shouldn't be held responsible, its just a building. The manager on duty the day of the accident is to blame, If a kid gets poisoned by some bad cereal that's not general mills or kellogs fault they are just a company! Even if the CEO knew the food could kill , that isn't the company's fault, they cant be held liable for that, right?
03-06-2017 11:03 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #102
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
(03-06-2017 08:48 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Just for clarification's sake, when people say "Pittsburgh feels midwestern to me," what does that actually mean in practical terms?

I say that because I lived Ohio for many years and it is radically different culturally. Frankly, it was surprisingly different than Pittsburgh.

I think of Pittsburgh as being a bit of a free-agent culturally and geographically. It just doesn't fit into any of the boxes and I think that's why Pittsburghers or so fiercely loyal to it it is definitely it's own place. If I had to put it into a category I would probably put it with more Mid-Atlantic cities like Baltimore, DC and Buffalo.

I think it has some northeastern principles and definitely some midwestern characteristics as well but it doesn't really fit into either box, IMO.


I agree with all of this and grew up 35 miles southeast of Pittsburgh.
03-07-2017 07:52 AM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #103
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
(03-06-2017 10:14 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-06-2017 08:48 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Just for clarification's sake, when people say "Pittsburgh feels midwestern to me," what does that actually mean in practical terms?

I spent a summer (and many weekends) in Pittsburgh, FWIW. The majority of my life in Detroit, Grand Rapids, Cincinnati and State College. I mention that to give you some of my background, why I believe what I believe.

Anyway, a few of the reasons I'd call Pittsburgh midwest:

(1) it is industrial based,

(2) more working-class vs. professional-class,

(3) people drive CONSIDERABLY more slowly vs. the East Coast (and much more like Ohio & Michigan folk).

(4) much much more friendly folk vs. East Coast folk. (again, fairly like Ohio & MI folk)

(5) fairly conservative political views, definitely not an abundance of northeast liberal types.

(6) growing up in Detroit and attending college at PSU --- I got to see both eastern PA and western PA classmates. Nearly 100% of my college friends wound up being Western PA folk. We just seemed to bond more easily and have more in common; they reminded me of my High School friends much more than eastern PA folk. As I figure, some of that had to have been because of the culture THEY grew up in.

(7) a fairly provincial feel among its citizens, and an over-tendency of its citizens to not leave their city/state after growing up there. This is a huge trait in particular of MI and OH citizens - those 2 states rank #2 and #3 in terms of percentage of their residents that were born in that state (LA is #1, FWIW). PA is #4 in this and a large part of that is due to Pittsburghers: if they are born there they tend to stay there.

(8) Pittsburgh's doppleganger American city is undoubtedly Cincinnati --- a city I lived in and one I would also classify as Midwest

(9) it's citizens properly call it pop and not soda!!!

Pittsburgh area people left in droves during the diaspora of the late Seventies/early Eighties when the steel industry collapsed.

Literally, hundreds of thousands of people from Western Pa. moved elsewhere to look for jobs.

You will hear "The Steelers really travel well" whenever the team plays in Phoenix, New Orleans, Atlanta, etc....

The fans didn't "travel" to the games in those cities as much as they had moved to those places decades ago and kept their old team allegiances.
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2017 07:58 AM by TerryD.)
03-07-2017 07:57 AM
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Nittany_Bearcat Offline
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Post: #104
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
(03-07-2017 07:57 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Pittsburgh area people left in droves during the diaspora of the late Seventies/early Eighties when the steel industry collapsed.

Literally, hundreds of thousands of people from Western Pa. moved elsewhere to look for jobs.

You will hear "The Steelers really travel well" whenever the team plays in Phoenix, New Orleans, Atlanta, etc....

The fans didn't "travel" to the games in those cities as much as they had moved to those places decades ago and kept their old team allegiances.

That's an anecdote. But it doesn't line up with the numbers. PA folk, particularly western PA folk, are much more likely to be residents of their native-born state vs. the rest of America.

And that's a trait that lines PA up more with Michigan & Ohio (Midwest states) vs. the Northeast.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/16/upsho...-1900.html
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2017 08:46 AM by Nittany_Bearcat.)
03-07-2017 08:44 AM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #105
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
(03-06-2017 10:14 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-06-2017 08:48 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Just for clarification's sake, when people say "Pittsburgh feels midwestern to me," what does that actually mean in practical terms?

I spent a summer (and many weekends) in Pittsburgh, FWIW. The majority of my life in Detroit, Grand Rapids, Cincinnati and State College. I mention that to give you some of my background, why I believe what I believe.

Anyway, a few of the reasons I'd call Pittsburgh midwest:

(1) it is industrial based,

(2) more working-class vs. professional-class,

(3) people drive CONSIDERABLY more slowly vs. the East Coast (and much more like Ohio & Michigan folk).

(4) much much more friendly folk vs. East Coast folk. (again, fairly like Ohio & MI folk)

(5) fairly conservative political views, definitely not an abundance of northeast liberal types.

(6) growing up in Detroit and attending college at PSU --- I got to see both eastern PA and western PA classmates. Nearly 100% of my college friends wound up being Western PA folk. We just seemed to bond more easily and have more in common; they reminded me of my High School friends much more than eastern PA folk. As I figure, some of that had to have been because of the culture THEY grew up in.

(7) a fairly provincial feel among its citizens, and an over-tendency of its citizens to not leave their city/state after growing up there. This is a huge trait in particular of MI and OH citizens - those 2 states rank #2 and #3 in terms of percentage of their residents that were born in that state (LA is #1, FWIW). PA is #4 in this and a large part of that is due to Pittsburghers: if they are born there they tend to stay there.

(8) Pittsburgh's doppleganger American city is undoubtedly Cincinnati --- a city I lived in and one I would also classify as Midwest

(9) it's citizens properly call it pop and not soda!!!

I think this is what makes Pittsburgh such an interesting place. Some of what you're saying is right. Other parts of what you were saying it's probably not as accurate as you think.

As I said earlier, of the Midwestern states, I have only lived in Ohio and I can tell you that the Buckeye State in the Keystone State, while similar in some regards, are really very different in many other key ways. However, in fairness, Pittsburgh is also different than places like State College and Philadelphia in many key ways.

That was my point. It doesn't fit as neatly into the package as places like Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, etc.; but, neither does it fit perfectly with Boston, New York, Philadelphia, etc. It is somewhere in between those extremes.

Now, to your points:

Pittsburgh obviously made its name nationally/internationally with the steel industry. That's why our professional football team is called the Steelers and it is still the prism by which the city is seen by most outsiders – just like Detroit is with the car industry.

However, Terry is right when he says that industry left Pittsburgh in the late 70s and early 80s and a zillion people left with it. Western Pennsylvania is much smaller population wise now than it was in the mid 80s.

That is also a key distinction between Pittsburgh and Detroit – and really the rest of the so-called "rust belt."

Pittsburgh was absolutely devastated by the collapse of the steel industry domestically. However, it had phenomenal leadership at just the right time and they were so desperate that they were willing to follow that leadership.

That made Pittsburgh much better organized at that time than some of its peer cities and was also much more honest with itself. That forced Pittsburgh to invest heavily in areas like robotics, education, healthcare and others. Those investments have paid off 100 fold and allowed that city to flourish while many of the cities to which it is often wrongly compared have languished. I think Cincinnati is very similar in that regard, BTW. Like Pittsburgh – and unlike places like Buffalo, Detroit and Cleveland – Cincinnati has done a lot of smart things over the years.

Those are NOW the industries that drive Pittsburgh, not "industry" - in the classic/former sense. For example, the largest employer in western Pennsylvania is UPMC – a medical system ( University of Pittsburgh Medical Center). The largest employer in Allegheny County is the University of Pittsburgh. The days of J&L Steel are long gone and have been since before "Back to the Future" was released.

That is where a lot of people grossly underrate the strength of Pitt. Pitt is WAY stronger institutionally than even many Pennsylvanians realize. The University of Pittsburgh has one of the largest endowments in the country. It is right up there with Ivy League schools and some of the largest programs in the country. That is not by accident and it is always underrated by people who don't understand how these decisions are made.

It is also a research juggernaut. Look at the research funding and look where the University of Pittsburgh lies. Now, consider that they often partner with Carnegie Mellon University – which is literally a block or two down the street – and which also has an enormous endowment and is also a research juggernaut, and you begin to understand the power that university holds over a pretty large metropolitan area.

What other midwestern city – aside from maybe Chicago – has that? The only other city in America that I can think of that is comparable is Boston in it's Cambridge area. In Ohio, it would be like putting Case Western University right on High Street next to Ohio State University.

I don't think people realize what a big deal that has been and I think it is why the University of Pittsburgh was a hot commodity right from the beginning of the expansion process. It has history, it has a market, it has tradition, it has all of that. However, what it has most of all is a lot of money and prestige in academic circles.

That's why the Big 12 quickly went after them when it needed to backfill after its defections and it is also why the ACC stepped in and blocked that attempt.
03-07-2017 10:41 AM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #106
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
As for the other points, I think all cities are more working class than professional class. That's how our nation's economy a structured. However, the notion that most Pittsburghers get up and go to a factory every day hasn't been true for at least 40 years and probably longer than that.

When I hear announcers talk about how everyone from this region just inherently had this inborn incredible blue collar work ethic, I always cringe because it's a blatantly false narrative. It's modern day America, not Oliver Twist or Thunderdome. I don't think the people here have any better or worse work ethic and the people from anywhere else. Now, I do think the bull**** it's called more quickly here then elsewhere but I don't think that has anything to do with work ethic.

Also, trust me when I tell you that willingness to call bull**** on people when they are being phony is decidedly un-Midwestern. My experience was that Midwesterners – at least Ohioans – often found that trait to be rude. I wasn't trying to be rude, I was trying to be forthright. Also, I don't appreciate or tolerate people are not being honest or forthright with me and that's a bigger crime then being polite. That is a very clear distinction between Pittsburgh and say, Columbus.
03-07-2017 10:48 AM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #107
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
On the political front, this might be the most interesting discussion of all.

Folks from western Pennsylvania are often socially conservative but they are also decidedly pro union – because of their familial roots.

To me, this sums up Pittsburgh perfectly and why it doesn't fit neatly into a box. Who else is like that anywhere in this country? This drives political scientists and pundits completely crazy. Eight years ago and even four years ago they went dramatically for Obama. This time around they went dramatically for Trump. There just aren't many places in the country that are like that.

That is also why presidential candidates spend a ludicrous amount of time in Pennsylvania – particularly western Pennsylvania. We often decide how the state goes and in turn how the country goes. It is often wildly unpredictable and it is infuriating to the political parties. It's often a battle between financial and social views. In that way, I think we are like Detroit and Cleveland.

Two years ago, we elected a Democratic governor – Tom Wolfe. This year, the state voted pretty overwhelmingly for Trump. You try to predict that because none of the experts can.

James Carville once famously/infamously (depending on your political leanings) said, "Pennsylvania is Philadelphia in the east, Pittsburgh in the west and Alabama in between."

He did not mean that as a compliment but he hit the nail right on the head. Pennsylvania is just very different culturally even as you move through the state. In that way, it has nothing like Ohio or Michigan or New York or New Jersey.

The only other state that I can think of that is fractured like it is Missouri – which is southern in parts, Western in other parts and classically Midwestern in other parts. Spend some time in Branson, then go up to Kansas City, and then make your way over to St. Louis and you will see exactly what I mean.

Well, Pennsylvania is very much like that. Spend some time in Pittsburgh then making your way over to State College or Altoona and then head over to Philadelphia and you will see that they are all extremely different places. However, just because it's not like Philadelphia doesn't mean it is like Cleveland or Detroit – because it very clearly is not.
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2017 11:03 AM by Dr. Isaly von Yinzer.)
03-07-2017 10:57 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #108
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
Really appreciate all the detailed posts from folks. +3 to Dr. IvY, in particular.


(03-06-2017 11:03 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  The people that covered up the rapes were acting on behalf of the university. They represented the university. The university needs to be held accountable for the acts committed in the name of the university by those employed by the university

I can't think of a viewpoint that is more false than this.

Just because someone claims to be representing something, doesn't make it so. That's absurdly silly.

A Penn St student walks into a convenience store and points a gun at the attendant's head. "I'm robbing this store, on behalf of Penn St university!!!"

Better call the NCAA! 07-coffee3


(03-07-2017 10:41 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  That forced Pittsburgh to invest heavily in areas like robotics, education, healthcare and others. Those investments have paid off 100 fold and allowed that city to flourish while many of the cities to which it is often wrongly compared have languished. I think Cincinnati is very similar in that regard, BTW. Like Pittsburgh – and unlike places like Buffalo, Detroit and Cleveland – Cincinnati has done a lot of smart things over the years.

Those are NOW the industries that drive Pittsburgh, not "industry" - in the classic/former sense. For example, the largest employer in western Pennsylvania is UPMC – a medical system ( University of Pittsburgh Medical Center). The largest employer in Allegheny County is the University of Pittsburgh. The days of J&L Steel are long gone and have been since before "Back to the Future" was released.

That is where a lot of people grossly underrate the strength of Pitt. Pitt is WAY stronger institutionally than even many Pennsylvanians realize. The University of Pittsburgh has one of the largest endowments in the country. It is right up there with Ivy League schools and some of the largest programs in the country. That is not by accident and it is always underrated by people who don't understand how these decisions are made.

It is also a research juggernaut. Look at the research funding and look where the University of Pittsburgh lies. Now, consider that they often partner with Carnegie Mellon University – which is literally a block or two down the street – and which also has an enormous endowment and is also a research juggernaut, and you begin to understand the power that university holds over a pretty large metropolitan area.

Healthcare and health sciences research are the true booms of our current day. So those investments have no doubt paid off huge for Pittsburgh and the U of Pitt, which is huge in health science research (plus collaboration with CM, huge in computer science and robotics).


I visited Pittsburgh a few years ago and stayed in areas close to the campuses (Shadyside?). It was as opposite as you can get from depressed. A vibrant, young, fun area, if there ever was.
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2017 11:31 AM by MplsBison.)
03-07-2017 11:27 AM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #109
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
One final point that I would like to make and it's really more of a sports point that relates to this discussion.

The Steelers are often credited with being the best traveling team in the NFL. They pretty much take over every stadium in which they play. I know there are a few others the travel well as well but nobody like the Steelers. I guess the closest other two would be Dallas or Green Bay but I think Pittsburgh is generally regarded as the best traveling team in the NFL the same way Nebraska is considered the best traveling team in college football.

Every single week, like clockwork, the schmuck announcer will mention how "there are a surprising number of Steelers fans in attendance" – like they're surprised. This has been going on for like 30 years now and has become a device of sorts – kind of like the old steel mill thing.

"Oh, my goodness. Look around the stadium and all you see are terrible towels waving." Anyone who has been around for any length of time makes the jerking motion when we hear that tripe because it is not a new song and it is not unexpected. It's also not very important – but that's a discussion for another day.

However, and this is where Terry is absolutely right about his diaspora comment, the secret is they are not traveling much better than everyone else at all. The secret is they already live there.

Now, part of it is just being successful and Pittsburgh had obviously been very successful – particularly in professional football and professional hockey (my beloved Buccos – not so much). . When you are good for a long period of time and you have marquee names year after year, you develop fans that have nothing to do with your city. That is definitely part of this deal.

However, most of it is population shift related. If you look at the population of western Pennsylvania in the 70s and 80s and look at it today, it is half the size now as its was then. That's because all of those people were basically forced to leave for better economic opportunities elsewhere – particularly in the Research Triangle in North Carolina, in the Beltway Area of Washington DC, in Central/West Central Florida, Columbus and in Arizona.

If you live in any of those five areas I guarantee you that you know at least one person originally from Pittsburgh and you probably know a whole bunch of them. I can't think of anyone I know he doesn't have at least one family member living particularly in the Beltway area or the I-4 Corridor.

If you go to a sporting event in any of those places and a Pittsburgh team is playing a team from that region, the Pittsburgh presence is going to be substantial. So, when the Penguins play the Capitals or the Hurricanes, it's going to be a big Pittsburgh crowd because many of the people there grew up in Pittsburgh or their parents did and they passed their allegiances on to their children. I still go to Nationwide Arena in Columbus every time the Penguins play there and it is almost always an even split among Penguins and Blue Jackets fans. However, most of the people aren't making that three hour trip across I-70 - they already live there.

The same is obviously true with the Steelers pretty much everywhere but particularly in those areas.

A few years ago, I went to a Jacksonville Jaguars game against the Steelers and I am not kidding when I say that it was at least 70% Steelers fans. Honestly, it was weird feeling. However, really blew me away is that they announced that the game was just the sixth sell out in franchise history and they showed all of the other sellouts and four of the other five games were also against the Steelers. Oddly, the other sellout was against the Tennessee Titans.

My point is that the reason why people are staying now is because they can. It's really a nice place to live. That's why it's always rated among the nicest places to live in the country by the various magazines and websites to do such ratings.

There are plenty of high-paying jobs here (because we invested wisely when the steel industry went south) and the cost-of-living is very affordable. Couple that with the fact that it is a beautiful place to live aesthetically and nice/honest people and of course people stay. Why wouldn't you stay?

I did not stay because my profession forced me to leave. However, it was definitely always the goal to get back here with my friends and family and in the environment I knew growing up and I am thrilled to be back and I can't envision ever leaving again for all of the reasons I laid out above.
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2017 11:40 AM by Dr. Isaly von Yinzer.)
03-07-2017 11:30 AM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #110
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
(03-07-2017 11:27 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  Really appreciate all the detailed posts from folks. +3 to Dr. IvY, in particular.


(03-06-2017 11:03 PM)gosports1 Wrote:  The people that covered up the rapes were acting on behalf of the university. They represented the university. The university needs to be held accountable for the acts committed in the name of the university by those employed by the university

I can't think of a viewpoint that is more false than this.

Just because someone claims to be representing something, doesn't make it so. That's absurdly silly.

A Penn St student walks into a convenience store and points a gun at the attendant's head. "I'm robbing this store, on behalf of Penn St university!!!"

Better call the NCAA! 07-coffee3


(03-07-2017 10:41 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  That forced Pittsburgh to invest heavily in areas like robotics, education, healthcare and others. Those investments have paid off 100 fold and allowed that city to flourish while many of the cities to which it is often wrongly compared have languished. I think Cincinnati is very similar in that regard, BTW. Like Pittsburgh – and unlike places like Buffalo, Detroit and Cleveland – Cincinnati has done a lot of smart things over the years.

Those are NOW the industries that drive Pittsburgh, not "industry" - in the classic/former sense. For example, the largest employer in western Pennsylvania is UPMC – a medical system ( University of Pittsburgh Medical Center). The largest employer in Allegheny County is the University of Pittsburgh. The days of J&L Steel are long gone and have been since before "Back to the Future" was released.

That is where a lot of people grossly underrate the strength of Pitt. Pitt is WAY stronger institutionally than even many Pennsylvanians realize. The University of Pittsburgh has one of the largest endowments in the country. It is right up there with Ivy League schools and some of the largest programs in the country. That is not by accident and it is always underrated by people who don't understand how these decisions are made.

It is also a research juggernaut. Look at the research funding and look where the University of Pittsburgh lies. Now, consider that they often partner with Carnegie Mellon University – which is literally a block or two down the street – and which also has an enormous endowment and is also a research juggernaut, and you begin to understand the power that university holds over a pretty large metropolitan area.

Healthcare and health sciences research are the true booms of our current day. So those investments have no doubt paid off huge for Pittsburgh and the U of Pitt, which is huge in health science research (plus collaboration with CM, huge in computer science and robotics).


I visited Pittsburgh a few years ago and stayed in areas close to the campuses (Shadyside?). It was as opposite as you can get from depressed. A vibrant, young, fun area, if there ever was.

I am guessing that you stayed in Shadyside. It is definitely full of young people and it is full of art galleries, bars, resturants, cafés, etc. there are many areas of Pittsburgh that are just like that now.

To be honest, I always think the Pittsburgh reputation helps it with visitors. They have such low expectations that when they actually spend some time here they can't help but be impressed. They quickly realize this is not somebody gray smoldering pile of rubble but a place that is very green and vibrant and lovely. However, that low bar definitely helps.

Now, it is not perfect. It still rains here more than any other major city other then Seattle. That can be a bummer at times (its 62 and raining as I write this) but that's also how everything stays so green.

Also, while vastly improved, the air-quality here is still not what it should be. The pollution in the region was so great during the steel mill era that we are still digging our way out of it. It has definitely dramatically improved but it still has a ways to go.

However, when I hear about people saying they want to get rid of the EPA – and I don't want to turn this into a political debate – I shake my head in disbelief. The EPA saved the city of Pittsburgh. No Pittsburgher, or western Pennsylvanian, or anyone who believes in science, should be in favor of defunding protections so that we can give carte blanche to the various industries. If people think that's going to bring manufacturing jobs back then I have some beachfront property on the Allegheny River that I think might interest them.

We've already seen what industry does when it is allowed to do whatever it wants and there is no way in hell that I or any other sane human being (who is not profiting from such de-regulation) should favor return to that draconian era.
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2017 11:53 AM by Dr. Isaly von Yinzer.)
03-07-2017 11:47 AM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #111
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
(03-07-2017 08:44 AM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-07-2017 07:57 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Pittsburgh area people left in droves during the diaspora of the late Seventies/early Eighties when the steel industry collapsed.

Literally, hundreds of thousands of people from Western Pa. moved elsewhere to look for jobs.

You will hear "The Steelers really travel well" whenever the team plays in Phoenix, New Orleans, Atlanta, etc....

The fans didn't "travel" to the games in those cities as much as they had moved to those places decades ago and kept their old team allegiances.

That's an anecdote. But it doesn't line up with the numbers. PA folk, particularly western PA folk, are much more likely to be residents of their native-born state vs. the rest of America.

And that's a trait that lines PA up more with Michigan & Ohio (Midwest states) vs. the Northeast.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/16/upsho...-1900.html


Well, then I and many people that I grew up with are just "an anecdote".

I moved from Western Pa. in 1983. I know many others who did as well.

There were few jobs in the area until the economy was rebuilt on "eds and meds".
03-07-2017 11:54 AM
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Post: #112
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
(03-07-2017 10:41 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  
(03-06-2017 10:14 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-06-2017 08:48 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  Just for clarification's sake, when people say "Pittsburgh feels midwestern to me," what does that actually mean in practical terms?

I spent a summer (and many weekends) in Pittsburgh, FWIW. The majority of my life in Detroit, Grand Rapids, Cincinnati and State College. I mention that to give you some of my background, why I believe what I believe.

Anyway, a few of the reasons I'd call Pittsburgh midwest:

(1) it is industrial based,

(2) more working-class vs. professional-class,

(3) people drive CONSIDERABLY more slowly vs. the East Coast (and much more like Ohio & Michigan folk).

(4) much much more friendly folk vs. East Coast folk. (again, fairly like Ohio & MI folk)

(5) fairly conservative political views, definitely not an abundance of northeast liberal types.

(6) growing up in Detroit and attending college at PSU --- I got to see both eastern PA and western PA classmates. Nearly 100% of my college friends wound up being Western PA folk. We just seemed to bond more easily and have more in common; they reminded me of my High School friends much more than eastern PA folk. As I figure, some of that had to have been because of the culture THEY grew up in.

(7) a fairly provincial feel among its citizens, and an over-tendency of its citizens to not leave their city/state after growing up there. This is a huge trait in particular of MI and OH citizens - those 2 states rank #2 and #3 in terms of percentage of their residents that were born in that state (LA is #1, FWIW). PA is #4 in this and a large part of that is due to Pittsburghers: if they are born there they tend to stay there.

(8) Pittsburgh's doppleganger American city is undoubtedly Cincinnati --- a city I lived in and one I would also classify as Midwest

(9) it's citizens properly call it pop and not soda!!!

I think this is what makes Pittsburgh such an interesting place. Some of what you're saying is right. Other parts of what you were saying it's probably not as accurate as you think.

As I said earlier, of the Midwestern states, I have only lived in Ohio and I can tell you that the Buckeye State in the Keystone State, while similar in some regards, are really very different in many other key ways. However, in fairness, Pittsburgh is also different than places like State College and Philadelphia in many key ways.

That was my point. It doesn't fit as neatly into the package as places like Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, etc.; but, neither does it fit perfectly with Boston, New York, Philadelphia, etc. It is somewhere in between those extremes.

Now, to your points:

Pittsburgh obviously made its name nationally/internationally with the steel industry. That's why our professional football team is called the Steelers and it is still the prism by which the city is seen by most outsiders – just like Detroit is with the car industry.

However, Terry is right when he says that industry left Pittsburgh in the late 70s and early 80s and a zillion people left with it. Western Pennsylvania is much smaller population wise now than it was in the mid 80s.

That is also a key distinction between Pittsburgh and Detroit – and really the rest of the so-called "rust belt."

Pittsburgh was absolutely devastated by the collapse of the steel industry domestically. However, it had phenomenal leadership at just the right time and they were so desperate that they were willing to follow that leadership.

That made Pittsburgh much better organized at that time than some of its peer cities and was also much more honest with itself. That forced Pittsburgh to invest heavily in areas like robotics, education, healthcare and others. Those investments have paid off 100 fold and allowed that city to flourish while many of the cities to which it is often wrongly compared have languished. I think Cincinnati is very similar in that regard, BTW. Like Pittsburgh – and unlike places like Buffalo, Detroit and Cleveland – Cincinnati has done a lot of smart things over the years.

Those are NOW the industries that drive Pittsburgh, not "industry" - in the classic/former sense. For example, the largest employer in western Pennsylvania is UPMC – a medical system ( University of Pittsburgh Medical Center). The largest employer in Allegheny County is the University of Pittsburgh. The days of J&L Steel are long gone and have been since before "Back to the Future" was released.

That is where a lot of people grossly underrate the strength of Pitt. Pitt is WAY stronger institutionally than even many Pennsylvanians realize. The University of Pittsburgh has one of the largest endowments in the country. It is right up there with Ivy League schools and some of the largest programs in the country. That is not by accident and it is always underrated by people who don't understand how these decisions are made.

It is also a research juggernaut. Look at the research funding and look where the University of Pittsburgh lies. Now, consider that they often partner with Carnegie Mellon University – which is literally a block or two down the street – and which also has an enormous endowment and is also a research juggernaut, and you begin to understand the power that university holds over a pretty large metropolitan area.

What other midwestern city – aside from maybe Chicago – has that? The only other city in America that I can think of that is comparable is Boston in it's Cambridge area. In Ohio, it would be like putting Case Western University right on High Street next to Ohio State University.

I don't think people realize what a big deal that has been and I think it is why the University of Pittsburgh was a hot commodity right from the beginning of the expansion process. It has history, it has a market, it has tradition, it has all of that. However, what it has most of all is a lot of money and prestige in academic circles.

That's why the Big 12 quickly went after them when it needed to backfill after its defections and it is also why the ACC stepped in and blocked that attempt.


I never became a Pitt fan (I am a diehard Pirates, Steelers and Pens fan) but Pitt is an outstanding university and a formidable economic machine.
03-07-2017 11:57 AM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #113
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
Terry is absolutely right. It's not antecdotal or in any way mythical.

He was part of the great migration out of Western Pennsylvania. There have been a zillion books written about it and documentaries made about it.

I'm sure the same thing happened to Detroit when the auto industry began to tank but I can't speak to that. I only know about Pittsburgh and what happened here.
03-07-2017 11:57 AM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #114
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
"So much was lost -- not just jobs, but people. Pittsburgh had been shrinking since the 1950s, but between 1970 and 1990, the city proper lost a full 30 percent of its population. People left to find work, and those working-age citizens who stayed behind were feeling around in the dark, searching for jobs in an employment landscape they no longer recognized."

http://www.post-gazette.com/business/bus...1212230258

This PDF discusses Western Pa.'s "stunning population losses". Allegheny County lost 12 percent of its population

https://www.press.umich.edu/pdf/0472109782-07.pdf

"The overall population loss in Western Pennsylvania reflects a trend that started with the collapse of the local steel industry 30 years ago, Briem said. A large part of that generation's younger adults fled the area in search of jobs.

'They took with them their families and their future families,' Briem said."

http://triblive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/new...26593.html

"In the late 1970s, the U.S. steel industry was failing. Foreign competitors with lower labor costs and lower environmental standards were crowding the market. Coal and iron ore processing had become costly and inefficient. Oil prices, inflation, and interest rates soared. In 1979, the Pittsburgh-based U.S. Steel Company suffered the largest quarterly loss — $561.7 million — in American corporate history. The episode evokes the recent travails of General Motors and Chrysler, except no bailout came to the rescue. Within a few short years, 115,500 manufacturing jobs vanished in Pittsburgh. The steel industry alone accounted for nearly 50 percent of the losses. The city was being talked about the way Detroit is now: Its very survival was in question."

http://thepolitic.org/rust-belt-renaissa...ican-city/


"Pittsburgh bled residents. Yes, way back in the 1980s there was an impressive exodus."

https://psmag.com/shrinking-city-myths-c....8rogmly89

I was 26 years old in 1983 and came from a coal miner and steelworker family. I know well what happened. I lived it.

"Ancedote" ? No. Real life.
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2017 12:15 PM by TerryD.)
03-07-2017 12:13 PM
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Nittany_Bearcat Offline
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Post: #115
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
(03-07-2017 11:54 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Well, then I and many people that I grew up with are just "an anecdote".

I moved from Western Pa. in 1983. I know many others who did as well.

There were few jobs in the area until the economy was rebuilt on "eds and meds".

Numbers are what they are --- what more can I say?
03-07-2017 03:44 PM
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Nittany_Bearcat Offline
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Post: #116
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
(03-07-2017 10:41 AM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  I think this is what makes Pittsburgh such an interesting place. Some of what you're saying is right. Other parts of what you were saying it's probably not as accurate as you think.

As I said earlier, of the Midwestern states, I have only lived in Ohio and I can tell you that the Buckeye State in the Keystone State, while similar in some regards, are really very different in many other key ways. However, in fairness, Pittsburgh is also different than places like State College and Philadelphia in many key ways.

That was my point. It doesn't fit as neatly into the package as places like Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, etc.; but, neither does it fit perfectly with Boston, New York, Philadelphia, etc. It is somewhere in between those extremes.

Now, to your points:

Pittsburgh obviously made its name nationally/internationally with the steel industry. That's why our professional football team is called the Steelers and it is still the prism by which the city is seen by most outsiders – just like Detroit is with the car industry.

However, Terry is right when he says that industry left Pittsburgh in the late 70s and early 80s and a zillion people left with it. Western Pennsylvania is much smaller population wise now than it was in the mid 80s.

That is also a key distinction between Pittsburgh and Detroit – and really the rest of the so-called "rust belt."

Pittsburgh was absolutely devastated by the collapse of the steel industry domestically. However, it had phenomenal leadership at just the right time and they were so desperate that they were willing to follow that leadership.

That made Pittsburgh much better organized at that time than some of its peer cities and was also much more honest with itself. That forced Pittsburgh to invest heavily in areas like robotics, education, healthcare and others. Those investments have paid off 100 fold and allowed that city to flourish while many of the cities to which it is often wrongly compared have languished. I think Cincinnati is very similar in that regard, BTW. Like Pittsburgh – and unlike places like Buffalo, Detroit and Cleveland – Cincinnati has done a lot of smart things over the years.

Those are NOW the industries that drive Pittsburgh, not "industry" - in the classic/former sense. For example, the largest employer in western Pennsylvania is UPMC – a medical system ( University of Pittsburgh Medical Center). The largest employer in Allegheny County is the University of Pittsburgh. The days of J&L Steel are long gone and have been since before "Back to the Future" was released.

That is where a lot of people grossly underrate the strength of Pitt. Pitt is WAY stronger institutionally than even many Pennsylvanians realize. The University of Pittsburgh has one of the largest endowments in the country. It is right up there with Ivy League schools and some of the largest programs in the country. That is not by accident and it is always underrated by people who don't understand how these decisions are made.

It is also a research juggernaut. Look at the research funding and look where the University of Pittsburgh lies. Now, consider that they often partner with Carnegie Mellon University – which is literally a block or two down the street – and which also has an enormous endowment and is also a research juggernaut, and you begin to understand the power that university holds over a pretty large metropolitan area.

What other midwestern city – aside from maybe Chicago – has that? The only other city in America that I can think of that is comparable is Boston in it's Cambridge area. In Ohio, it would be like putting Case Western University right on High Street next to Ohio State University.

I don't think people realize what a big deal that has been and I think it is why the University of Pittsburgh was a hot commodity right from the beginning of the expansion process. It has history, it has a market, it has tradition, it has all of that. However, what it has most of all is a lot of money and prestige in academic circles.

That's why the Big 12 quickly went after them when it needed to backfill after its defections and it is also why the ACC stepped in and blocked that attempt.

Good and fair post.

I will refine what I said earlier --- if I HAD (with a gun pointed to my head) classify Pittsburgh as something, I'd go "Midwest."

But it is, no doubt, considerably more nuanced vs. most American cities. It is not easily "bucket-able."

Of all the places I've lived in for at least a few months, Cincinnati and Pittsburgh were by far my 2 favorites. Probably not a coincidence. I love both cities, enjoyed my time there. (I just moved to Denver, which is something completely different)
03-07-2017 03:48 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #117
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
(03-07-2017 03:44 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-07-2017 11:54 AM)TerryD Wrote:  Well, then I and many people that I grew up with are just "an anecdote".

I moved from Western Pa. in 1983. I know many others who did as well.

There were few jobs in the area until the economy was rebuilt on "eds and meds".

Numbers are what they are --- what more can I say?


That you didn't live through it and therefore cannot say anything about it with the attempted authority that you did? :)
03-07-2017 04:19 PM
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Nittany_Bearcat Offline
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Post: #118
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
(03-07-2017 04:19 PM)TerryD Wrote:  That you didn't live through it and therefore cannot say anything about it with the attempted authority that you did? :)

Again --- the numbers are what they are. I presented an opinion, then backed it up with a fact.

Agree to disagree as you will --- but I don't get the hostility from you.
(This post was last modified: 03-07-2017 08:10 PM by Nittany_Bearcat.)
03-07-2017 08:09 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #119
RE: Joe Pa's unrealized eastern all sports conference
(03-07-2017 08:09 PM)Nittany_Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-07-2017 04:19 PM)TerryD Wrote:  That you didn't live through it and therefore cannot say anything about it with the attempted authority that you did? :)

Again --- the numbers are what they are. I presented an opinion, then backed it up with a fact.

Agree to disagree as you will --- but I don't get the hostility from you.



No hostility, I just backed up my real life experience with articles and numbers too.

You just cherry picked one number and acted like you are the ultimate authority on this issue.

How old are you? Were you alive in 1975-83?
03-08-2017 11:29 AM
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