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Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
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ValleyBoy Online
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Post: #61
RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
(02-16-2017 09:02 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 08:51 PM)NewTimes Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 07:05 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  Its only a loophole if they grant a waiver. They granted a waiver to Liberty because they don't want a religious discrimination lawsuit. That would not be the case with others seeking a waiver.

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Agree 100%. It was a lawsuit loss if the NCAA had denied the waiver.

The NCAA just didn't want to fight it. They can simply amend their rules to state that FBS or NCAA membership is contingent upon non discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, marital status, or religion at some future point. LU would of course have the choice of complying with the rules or leaving at that point.

I'm not sure there'd be a loss on religious discrimination grounds, especially seeing as LU discriminates in athletic employment on the basis of religion.

I think Dale v Boy Scouts would put an end to most LU claims. Or claims by other schools.
Tom you do know that the Boy Scouts won in a 5-4 Supreme Court decision in the Dale vs Boy Scouts case. This was not the only court case that the Boy Scouts have won then changed there membership stance on.
02-16-2017 09:18 PM
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billybobby777 Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
(02-16-2017 09:10 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 08:57 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 08:40 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 08:30 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 08:24 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  K TV I believe. I came across a channel that was showing Liberty football and basketball games.

Also while BYU TV is ota in Provo, they are not on all cable packages across the US.

Really? I've seen a BYU TV in Texas, Oklahoma and New Mexico...I travel a lot. Where isn't BYU TV offered? I'm not talking cable tv. FREE OTA.

Cheers!
Not in San Antonio. No OTA there.
Didn't know they had OTA stations elsewhere.

I saw it at hotels in other states and at relatives houses...maybe it was cable? I assumed it was OTA. I guess I was wrong.

Cheers!

Yeah...if it was in hotels it was cable. They are on the basic package in quite a few cable operators.

Maybe it wasn't even BYU tv...I used to watch reruns of this old western on a Christian tv station. It was kind of like the Rifle Man with Chuck Conners. My parents in OKC have Direct TV now, but I could have sworn this was before that. Oh well. Does BYU TV show reruns of old shows? Anyway, will Liberty football games be shown on free OTA Christian stations? That would be incredible.
Cheers!
02-16-2017 09:21 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
How many FBS schools then will there be for 2019?

ACC (14)
SEC (14)
B1G (14)
CUSA (14)
PAC (12)
MAC (12)
AAC (12)
MWC (12)
B12 (10)
SBC (10)
Indy (NMSU, BYU, ND, Army, UMass, Liberty)=6

This makes an even 130 schools in FBS.
02-16-2017 09:29 PM
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Erictelevision Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
Where I'd send the INDIES:

NMSU: MWC
BYU: PAC XII/BIG XII
ARMY: AAC
UMASS: AAC/ACC
LIBERTY: SBC/CUSA
02-16-2017 09:50 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
(02-16-2017 09:18 PM)ValleyBoy Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 09:02 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 08:51 PM)NewTimes Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 07:05 PM)ark30inf Wrote:  Its only a loophole if they grant a waiver. They granted a waiver to Liberty because they don't want a religious discrimination lawsuit. That would not be the case with others seeking a waiver.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk
Agree 100%. It was a lawsuit loss if the NCAA had denied the waiver.

The NCAA just didn't want to fight it. They can simply amend their rules to state that FBS or NCAA membership is contingent upon non discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, marital status, or religion at some future point. LU would of course have the choice of complying with the rules or leaving at that point.

I'm not sure there'd be a loss on religious discrimination grounds, especially seeing as LU discriminates in athletic employment on the basis of religion.

I think Dale v Boy Scouts would put an end to most LU claims. Or claims by other schools.
Tom you do know that the Boy Scouts won in a 5-4 Supreme Court decision in the Dale vs Boy Scouts case. This was not the only court case that the Boy Scouts have won then changed there membership stance on.

Yes, private organizations can set their own membership criteria. So if the NCAA says...you can't discriminate....or you have to have a conference sponsor....then its probably okay for them to do so.

I'm using the fact that the Boy Scouts prevailed in Dale v BSA as a defense of the NCAA's right to set their own membership criteria.

My guess is that the NCAA didn't want to fight it, or they were trying to make nice with Trump's new leader of his commission on higher education.

Either way, now its up to LU to make it work as a FBS independent.
(This post was last modified: 02-16-2017 10:29 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
02-16-2017 10:27 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
I haven't seen anywhere on this thread the realities of the CFP contract as it relates to a potential floodgate opening for new FBS moveups.

As an Indy, Liberty won't get much financially from moving up. But, apparently, they don't need money. They seem to have it coming out the wazoo, as one funny TV commercial described. But other schools would likely need to cash in the $1.3 million or so they would get with a conference invite.

Even if a bunch of schools all moved up and decided to form their own, new, conference, there is nothing that requires the CFP to include them in the current contract or any future contracts. An ever expanding FBS can't be a good thing for any current G5 conferences, because if the P5 decide they can exclude new conferences, the next logical step is to exclude all of them except their own.

If you think schools were desperate to get a golden ticket to the P5 before, you ain't seen nuthin' yet. I don't imagine the good folks at NCAA headquarters are getting much sleep these days. We are moving ever closer to the tipping point where P5 schools break away. Like the AFLAC duck trying to plug the leaks in the rowboat, the NCAA is running out of fingers and toes.
02-16-2017 10:39 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
(02-16-2017 10:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  I haven't seen anywhere on this thread the realities of the CFP contract as it relates to a potential floodgate opening for new FBS moveups.

As an Indy, Liberty won't get much financially from moving up. But, apparently, they don't need money. They seem to have it coming out the wazoo, as one funny TV commercial described. But other schools would likely need to cash in the $1.3 million or so they would get with a conference invite.

Even if a bunch of schools all moved up and decided to form their own, new, conference, there is nothing that requires the CFP to include them in the current contract or any future contracts. An ever expanding FBS can't be a good thing for any current G5 conferences, because if the P5 decide they can exclude new conferences, the next logical step is to exclude all of them except their own.

If you think schools were desperate to get a golden ticket to the P5 before, you ain't seen nuthin' yet. I don't imagine the good folks at NCAA headquarters are getting much sleep these days. We are moving ever closer to the tipping point where P5 schools break away. Like the AFLAC duck trying to plug the leaks in the rowboat, the NCAA is running out of fingers and toes.

Seems at least two leagues qualifying eventually as FBS - the CAA and the WAC/Big Sky and maybe even the MVC/Southland. The object of the game is to qualify before the new CFP contract. A P5 break might happen, but the CFP spots and pot might go up enough to placate them.
02-16-2017 10:45 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
(02-16-2017 10:45 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 10:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  I haven't seen anywhere on this thread the realities of the CFP contract as it relates to a potential floodgate opening for new FBS moveups.

As an Indy, Liberty won't get much financially from moving up. But, apparently, they don't need money. They seem to have it coming out the wazoo, as one funny TV commercial described. But other schools would likely need to cash in the $1.3 million or so they would get with a conference invite.

Even if a bunch of schools all moved up and decided to form their own, new, conference, there is nothing that requires the CFP to include them in the current contract or any future contracts. An ever expanding FBS can't be a good thing for any current G5 conferences, because if the P5 decide they can exclude new conferences, the next logical step is to exclude all of them except their own.

If you think schools were desperate to get a golden ticket to the P5 before, you ain't seen nuthin' yet. I don't imagine the good folks at NCAA headquarters are getting much sleep these days. We are moving ever closer to the tipping point where P5 schools break away. Like the AFLAC duck trying to plug the leaks in the rowboat, the NCAA is running out of fingers and toes.

Seems at least two leagues qualifying eventually as FBS - the CAA and the WAC/Big Sky and maybe even the MVC/Southland. The object of the game is to qualify before the new CFP contract. A P5 break might happen, but the CFP spots and pot might go up enough to placate them.

Right now the P5 are giving up about $90 million a year to the G5. If that were to become a G7, odds are they would still make them share the $90 million. The P5 aren't likely to take money out of their share to give it to two new conferences. I don't think it would matter to the P5 if the G5 agreed to take less so two new conferences could be included. But I doubt such a proposal would get many G5 votes in a new contract negotiation.

So the P5 would get their cake and eat it too. Cut the new guys out and make it look like it's the G5's fault. Sweet.
02-16-2017 10:56 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
(02-16-2017 10:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  I haven't seen anywhere on this thread the realities of the CFP contract as it relates to a potential floodgate opening for new FBS moveups.

As an Indy, Liberty won't get much financially from moving up. But, apparently, they don't need money. They seem to have it coming out the wazoo, as one funny TV commercial described. But other schools would likely need to cash in the $1.3 million or so they would get with a conference invite.

Even if a bunch of schools all moved up and decided to form their own, new, conference, there is nothing that requires the CFP to include them in the current contract or any future contracts. An ever expanding FBS can't be a good thing for any current G5 conferences, because if the P5 decide they can exclude new conferences, the next logical step is to exclude all of them except their own.

If you think schools were desperate to get a golden ticket to the P5 before, you ain't seen nuthin' yet. I don't imagine the good folks at NCAA headquarters are getting much sleep these days. We are moving ever closer to the tipping point where P5 schools break away. Like the AFLAC duck trying to plug the leaks in the rowboat, the NCAA is running out of fingers and toes.

They won't get a share of the CFP. They're on their own for the next decade. Part of the reason why I don't think anyone else will follow LU is that other schools can't afford to jump without a home. Take out the CFP money and the TV money (small amount but its still something) from and it gets really expensive really quickly.

I don't see Jacksonville State, Lamar, EKU, JMU attempting to move up without a conference. They don't have the money or quite frankly the student or alumni base to support FBS football. It would have to be a private school with tons of money. Unless Grand Canyon Education, Incorporated (d/b/a Grand Canyon University), a Delaware Corporation, wants to do it. LU is the only private school that will go that route.

The only public schools that I think could possibly try it would be NDSU and Wichita State. But ultimately, I think neither jump.
(This post was last modified: 02-16-2017 10:59 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
02-16-2017 10:57 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
(02-16-2017 10:56 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 10:45 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 10:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  I haven't seen anywhere on this thread the realities of the CFP contract as it relates to a potential floodgate opening for new FBS moveups.

As an Indy, Liberty won't get much financially from moving up. But, apparently, they don't need money. They seem to have it coming out the wazoo, as one funny TV commercial described. But other schools would likely need to cash in the $1.3 million or so they would get with a conference invite.

Even if a bunch of schools all moved up and decided to form their own, new, conference, there is nothing that requires the CFP to include them in the current contract or any future contracts. An ever expanding FBS can't be a good thing for any current G5 conferences, because if the P5 decide they can exclude new conferences, the next logical step is to exclude all of them except their own.

If you think schools were desperate to get a golden ticket to the P5 before, you ain't seen nuthin' yet. I don't imagine the good folks at NCAA headquarters are getting much sleep these days. We are moving ever closer to the tipping point where P5 schools break away. Like the AFLAC duck trying to plug the leaks in the rowboat, the NCAA is running out of fingers and toes.

Seems at least two leagues qualifying eventually as FBS - the CAA and the WAC/Big Sky and maybe even the MVC/Southland. The object of the game is to qualify before the new CFP contract. A P5 break might happen, but the CFP spots and pot might go up enough to placate them.

Right now the P5 are giving up about $90 million a year to the G5. If that were to become a G7, odds are they would still make them share the $90 million. The P5 aren't likely to take money out of their share to give it to two new conferences. I don't think it would matter to the P5 if the G5 agreed to take less so two new conferences could be included. But I doubt such a proposal would get many G5 votes in a new contract negotiation.

So the P5 would get their cake and eat it too. Cut the new guys out and make it look like it's the G5's fault. Sweet.

if the P5 wants to cut the G5 loose...they're not going to care if there are 132 or 128 teams.
02-16-2017 11:04 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
(02-16-2017 10:45 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 10:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  I haven't seen anywhere on this thread the realities of the CFP contract as it relates to a potential floodgate opening for new FBS moveups.

As an Indy, Liberty won't get much financially from moving up. But, apparently, they don't need money. They seem to have it coming out the wazoo, as one funny TV commercial described. But other schools would likely need to cash in the $1.3 million or so they would get with a conference invite.

Even if a bunch of schools all moved up and decided to form their own, new, conference, there is nothing that requires the CFP to include them in the current contract or any future contracts. An ever expanding FBS can't be a good thing for any current G5 conferences, because if the P5 decide they can exclude new conferences, the next logical step is to exclude all of them except their own.

If you think schools were desperate to get a golden ticket to the P5 before, you ain't seen nuthin' yet. I don't imagine the good folks at NCAA headquarters are getting much sleep these days. We are moving ever closer to the tipping point where P5 schools break away. Like the AFLAC duck trying to plug the leaks in the rowboat, the NCAA is running out of fingers and toes.

Seems at least two leagues qualifying eventually as FBS - the CAA and the WAC/Big Sky and maybe even the MVC/Southland. The object of the game is to qualify before the new CFP contract. A P5 break might happen, but the CFP spots and pot might go up enough to placate them.

Hmm.

There could be some realignment in the next 8 years among the G5. A CUSA split for example where UMass and Liberty could find a home.

Ultimately others will take their place on the outside and the trend toward leaner G5 conferences will continue to maximize the per school payout.

UMass
Marshall
Liberty
Old Dominion
App State
Charlotte
Georgia State
Georgia Southern
Florida Atlantic
Florida International

That's 10 schools w/3 current SBC members. CUSA takes another 3 SBC to get back to 12.

That leaves the SBC with 4 schools (ULM, Troy, USA, Coastal) that I doubt can rebuild in football with poor academics and location. They can hang out with NMSU and play them in football every year. New CFP contract roles out and the SBC is not included.

There could also be some realignment mixed in here where 2-4 AAC schools move to a P5. That could reduce the ranks of CUSA down to 10-12 members with an AAC standing pat at 10.
02-16-2017 11:15 PM
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Kittonhead Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
(02-16-2017 11:04 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 10:56 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 10:45 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 10:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  I haven't seen anywhere on this thread the realities of the CFP contract as it relates to a potential floodgate opening for new FBS moveups.

As an Indy, Liberty won't get much financially from moving up. But, apparently, they don't need money. They seem to have it coming out the wazoo, as one funny TV commercial described. But other schools would likely need to cash in the $1.3 million or so they would get with a conference invite.

Even if a bunch of schools all moved up and decided to form their own, new, conference, there is nothing that requires the CFP to include them in the current contract or any future contracts. An ever expanding FBS can't be a good thing for any current G5 conferences, because if the P5 decide they can exclude new conferences, the next logical step is to exclude all of them except their own.

If you think schools were desperate to get a golden ticket to the P5 before, you ain't seen nuthin' yet. I don't imagine the good folks at NCAA headquarters are getting much sleep these days. We are moving ever closer to the tipping point where P5 schools break away. Like the AFLAC duck trying to plug the leaks in the rowboat, the NCAA is running out of fingers and toes.

Seems at least two leagues qualifying eventually as FBS - the CAA and the WAC/Big Sky and maybe even the MVC/Southland. The object of the game is to qualify before the new CFP contract. A P5 break might happen, but the CFP spots and pot might go up enough to placate them.

Right now the P5 are giving up about $90 million a year to the G5. If that were to become a G7, odds are they would still make them share the $90 million. The P5 aren't likely to take money out of their share to give it to two new conferences. I don't think it would matter to the P5 if the G5 agreed to take less so two new conferences could be included. But I doubt such a proposal would get many G5 votes in a new contract negotiation.

So the P5 would get their cake and eat it too. Cut the new guys out and make it look like it's the G5's fault. Sweet.

if the P5 wants to cut the G5 loose...they're not going to care if there are 132 or 128 teams.

Whether the G5 stays is going to be a network decision more so than a P5 decision depending on how the TV numbers return.
02-16-2017 11:17 PM
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Post: #73
RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
(02-16-2017 10:57 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  The only public schools that I think could possibly try it would be NDSU and Wichita State. But ultimately, I think neither jump.

Wichita St now sees an open lane for full membership in the AAC. They will take it, as they have money from supporters including the Kochs.

Youngstown St has Tressel and Pelini who can get a lot of money behiInd their FBS dreams.

NDSU has to deal with budget cuts and major Title IX issues with for FBS. Don't see them making a move for at least a few years. To do it right, they need a new stadium, and that isn't feasible for a long while.

Sam Houston St, Lamar, UTRGV and the Montanas and Idaho and possibly E Wash could jump to the WAC is a group with MO St and Wichita St as affiliates. The Big Sky would backfill with western WAC schools.
02-16-2017 11:20 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
(02-16-2017 11:20 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 10:57 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  The only public schools that I think could possibly try it would be NDSU and Wichita State. But ultimately, I think neither jump.

Wichita St now sees an open lane for full membership in the AAC. They will take it, as they have money from supporters including the Kochs.

Youngstown St has Tressel and Pelini who can get a lot of money behiInd their FBS dreams.

NDSU has to deal with budget cuts and major Title IX issues with for FBS. Don't see them making a move for at least a few years. To do it right, they need a new stadium, and that isn't feasible for a long while.

Sam Houston St, Lamar, UTRGV and the Montanas and Idaho and possibly E Wash could jump to the WAC is a group with MO St and Wichita St as affiliates. The Big Sky would backfill with western WAC schools.

SHSU has a small endowment and no facilities
UTRGV has other priorities, and has been an abject and total failure in athletics forever (got tossed from the Sun Belt when they asked the NCAA for the death penalty for their own basketball program so they could avoid paying their basketball coach a small amount in a termination dispute). Lamar has a small student body and....there are already TWELVE FBS programs in Texas.

Idaho is moving down. Its done.

And remember, these new schools moving up will get no CFP money.
(This post was last modified: 02-16-2017 11:30 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
02-16-2017 11:30 PM
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RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
(02-16-2017 11:30 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 11:20 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 10:57 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  The only public schools that I think could possibly try it would be NDSU and Wichita State. But ultimately, I think neither jump.

Wichita St now sees an open lane for full membership in the AAC. They will take it, as they have money from supporters including the Kochs.

Youngstown St has Tressel and Pelini who can get a lot of money behiInd their FBS dreams.

NDSU has to deal with budget cuts and major Title IX issues with for FBS. Don't see them making a move for at least a few years. To do it right, they need a new stadium, and that isn't feasible for a long while.

Sam Houston St, Lamar, UTRGV and the Montanas and Idaho and possibly E Wash could jump to the WAC is a group with MO St and Wichita St as affiliates. The Big Sky would backfill with western WAC schools.

SHSU has a small endowment and no facilities
UTRGV has other priorities, and has been an abject and total failure in athletics forever (got tossed from the Sun Belt when they asked the NCAA for the death penalty for their own basketball program so they could avoid paying their basketball coach a small amount in a termination dispute). Lamar has a small student body and....there are already TWELVE FBS programs in Texas.

Idaho is moving down. Its done.

And remember, these new schools moving up will get no CFP money.

FCS programs make very little ense in Texas as they have little support and have little revenue. FBS ones get attention when they win and have much higher guarantees.

Sam Houston St is the equivalent of Troy in Alabama and higher than Jacksonville St and Ga Southern. Only two of those schools are FBS.

UTRGV has made a mess of its athletics in the past, but they plan on turning a new leaf with Mack Brown's help.

A conference move is allocated about preparing for a new CFP contract. That is their pot of gold in the end. Liberty needs one too eventually.
(This post was last modified: 02-16-2017 11:43 PM by NoDak.)
02-16-2017 11:41 PM
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DavidSt Online
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RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
I think for the best interest for P5 and G5 schools is to have more schools moving up so that we don't have any more 5-7 teams going to bowl games. Those games lost viewers big time.
02-16-2017 11:53 PM
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RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
(02-16-2017 06:42 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I hope this results in a flood of schools looking to jump up but who are currently blocked from doing so. With the influx of new schools hopefully a new conference or two emerges.

Yeah it would be great to add 10, 20, 50 more schools that can't compete at the top level.
02-16-2017 11:58 PM
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RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
(02-16-2017 10:39 PM)ken d Wrote:  I haven't seen anywhere on this thread the realities of the CFP contract as it relates to a potential floodgate opening for new FBS moveups.

As an Indy, Liberty won't get much financially from moving up. But, apparently, they don't need money. They seem to have it coming out the wazoo, as one funny TV commercial described. But other schools would likely need to cash in the $1.3 million or so they would get with a conference invite.

Even if a bunch of schools all moved up and decided to form their own, new, conference, there is nothing that requires the CFP to include them in the current contract or any future contracts. An ever expanding FBS can't be a good thing for any current G5 conferences, because if the P5 decide they can exclude new conferences, the next logical step is to exclude all of them except their own.

If you think schools were desperate to get a golden ticket to the P5 before, you ain't seen nuthin' yet. I don't imagine the good folks at NCAA headquarters are getting much sleep these days. We are moving ever closer to the tipping point where P5 schools break away. Like the AFLAC duck trying to plug the leaks in the rowboat, the NCAA is running out of fingers and toes.

Plus the new teams can't force the current P5 or G5 to schedule them so their only hope is a huge influx of FCS Indies.
02-17-2017 12:11 AM
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RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
(02-16-2017 11:53 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  I think for the best interest for P5 and G5 schools is to have more schools moving up so that we don't have any more 5-7 teams going to bowl games. Those games lost viewers big time.

I lose brain cells Everytime you post. What's your point?
02-17-2017 12:14 AM
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utpotts Online
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Post: #80
RE: Did rules change on FCS moving up without a conference?
(02-16-2017 11:20 PM)NoDak Wrote:  
(02-16-2017 10:57 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  The only public schools that I think could possibly try it would be NDSU and Wichita State. But ultimately, I think neither jump.

Youngstown St has Tressel and Pelini who can get a lot of money behiInd their FBS dreams.
.

Have you ever been to Youngstown? Unless you like empty factories, and abandoned steel mills you probably haven't. There is no money there. Plus with 8 FBS schools in the state already, its not going to happen.
02-17-2017 12:19 AM
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