I still have the ticket stubs in my wallet for State's last win (to-date) under Gottfried and who knows, they might become a collectors' item of sorts.

--

Despite the showing at Duke last month, many saw this end coming just based on the way State approached "defense" (or actually, the way they DIDN'T approach defense).

I can point to the off-season following the 2014-2015 season, when Trevor Lacy elected to not come back -- despite having no NBA draft stock. That, coupled with the rumblings around Abu, told me all I needed to know about Gott's future, and it was then when I started to see the wheels come off the bus.

While many can point to the embarrassing losses to Carolina (both of them) and the ass-whippin' at Wake Forest, I think it was the Syracuse choke job that FINALLY did Gott in. Everyone would have been stunned if State won at Louisville -- even then, they didn't compete. But choking a 16 point lead away at home to Syracuse...

That had to be the final nail, the point where back-channel calls started.

The ass-kickin' at Wake is when it call came out in the press.

(02-17-2017 01:21 PM)ecuacc4ever Wrote:  I still have the ticket stubs in my wallet for State's last win (to-date) under Gottfried and who knows, they might become a collectors' item of sorts.

--

Despite the showing at Duke last month, many saw this end coming just based on the way State approached "defense" (or actually, the way they DIDN'T approach defense).

I can point to the off-season following the 2014-2015 season, when Trevor Lacy elected to not come back -- despite having no NBA draft stock. That, coupled with the rumblings around Abu, told me all I needed to know about Gott's future, and it was then when I started to see the wheels come off the bus.

While many can point to the embarrassing losses to Carolina (both of them) and the ass-whippin' at Wake Forest, I think it was the Syracuse choke job that FINALLY did Gott in. Everyone would have been stunned if State won at Louisville -- even then, they didn't compete. But choking a 16 point lead away at home to Syracuse...

That had to be the final nail, the point where back-channel calls started.

The ass-kickin' at Wake is when it call came out in the press.

There is no shame to losing to SU in bb. I could be wrong but I dont think that NC State has beaten SU since SU has been in the ACC. So I dont see how losing to SU would be the stimulus to him being fired.

(02-17-2017 02:45 PM)cuseroc Wrote:  

(02-17-2017 01:21 PM)ecuacc4ever Wrote:  I still have the ticket stubs in my wallet for State's last win (to-date) under Gottfried and who knows, they might become a collectors' item of sorts.

--

Despite the showing at Duke last month, many saw this end coming just based on the way State approached "defense" (or actually, the way they DIDN'T approach defense).

I can point to the off-season following the 2014-2015 season, when Trevor Lacy elected to not come back -- despite having no NBA draft stock. That, coupled with the rumblings around Abu, told me all I needed to know about Gott's future, and it was then when I started to see the wheels come off the bus.

While many can point to the embarrassing losses to Carolina (both of them) and the ass-whippin' at Wake Forest, I think it was the Syracuse choke job that FINALLY did Gott in. Everyone would have been stunned if State won at Louisville -- even then, they didn't compete. But choking a 16 point lead away at home to Syracuse...

That had to be the final nail, the point where back-channel calls started.

The ass-kickin' at Wake is when it call came out in the press.

There is no shame to losing to SU in bb. I could be wrong but I dont think that NC State has beaten SU since SU has been in the ACC. So I dont see how losing to SU would be the stimulus to him being fired.

Umm, I didn't say there was any shame in it. I have no clue how you got that from my write-up.

What I am illustrating was that the way NC State lost told me the coaching staff lost the players, AND that the coaching staff didn't do a good job of reaching the kids throughout the season.

(02-17-2017 11:23 AM)ecuacc4ever Wrote:  http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketb...-that-job/

Quote:So congrats, NC State fans.
You got what you wanted.
But also know this: You made it clear 11 years ago that Herb Sendek making five straight NCAA Tournaments wasn’t good enough -- proof being how you nudged him to Arizona State. And now you’ve also made it clear that Mark Gottfried going to four NCAA Tournaments in a six-year span that included two Sweet 16s isn’t good enough either. And the only coach you had in between those two coaches is Sidney Lowe, who never finished better than ninth in a 12-school ACC.

Which leads to two questions:

1) What are you after?
2) Are you sure you can get it?

Quote:Either way, I’ll leave you with this ...
Mark Gottfried and Jim Larranaga got hired 17 days apart at NC State and Miami back in 2011. When this season is over, Gottfried will have made four NCAA Tournaments and two Sweet 16s. And he got fired two days after Valentine’s Day. Meantime, even if Larranaga makes the NCAA Tournament this season, his first six years at Miami will amount to three NCAA Tournament appearances and, more than likely, two Sweet 16s. And Larranaga has a contract through 2022 that nobody has even thought of buying out. He couldn’t be more comfortable in Coral Gables.

Two men.

Two ACC jobs.

Herb Sendek? Really? Ironically his 72-88 record at State is virtually identical to his 72-90 record at Arizona State. He clearly has a ceiling as a coach and it is 6-8 conference wins per year. He chose to leave before he got exposed. I'm not going to say he would still be at NC State but, leaving was his choice. If you can't handle the heat...

Larrañaga ACC record: 61–40 (.604), 3 NCAAT appearances, 2 sweet 16s. average conference finish 5.5, highest finish 1st, also 2nd, program moving upward.
Gottfried ACC record: 47–55 (.461), 4 NCAAT appearances, 2 sweet 16s. None in last 2 years. Program spiraling downward. Average conference finish 8th, highest finish 4th (twice)

(02-17-2017 03:18 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  

(02-17-2017 11:23 AM)ecuacc4ever Wrote:  http://www.cbssports.com/college-basketb...-that-job/

Quote:So congrats, NC State fans.
You got what you wanted.
But also know this: You made it clear 11 years ago that Herb Sendek making five straight NCAA Tournaments wasn’t good enough -- proof being how you nudged him to Arizona State. And now you’ve also made it clear that Mark Gottfried going to four NCAA Tournaments in a six-year span that included two Sweet 16s isn’t good enough either. And the only coach you had in between those two coaches is Sidney Lowe, who never finished better than ninth in a 12-school ACC.

Which leads to two questions:

1) What are you after?
2) Are you sure you can get it?

Quote:Either way, I’ll leave you with this ...
Mark Gottfried and Jim Larranaga got hired 17 days apart at NC State and Miami back in 2011. When this season is over, Gottfried will have made four NCAA Tournaments and two Sweet 16s. And he got fired two days after Valentine’s Day. Meantime, even if Larranaga makes the NCAA Tournament this season, his first six years at Miami will amount to three NCAA Tournament appearances and, more than likely, two Sweet 16s. And Larranaga has a contract through 2022 that nobody has even thought of buying out. He couldn’t be more comfortable in Coral Gables.

Two men.

Two ACC jobs.

Herb Sendek? Really? Ironically his 72-88 record at State is virtually identical to his 72-90 record at Arizona State. He clearly has a ceiling as a coach and it is 6-8 conference wins per year. He chose to leave before he got exposed. I'm not going to say he would still be at NC State but, leaving was his choice. If you can't handle the heat...

Larrañaga ACC record: 61–40 (.604), 3 NCAAT appearances, 2 sweet 16s. average conference finish 5.5, highest finish 1st, also 2nd, program moving upward.
Gottfried ACC record: 47–55 (.461), 4 NCAAT appearances, 2 sweet 16s. None in last 2 years. Program spiraling downward. Average conference finish 8th, highest finish 4th (twice)

Yeah, Miami is at least maintaining a high bar for their program while NC State has been trending downward. He got some good players in there (Purvis & Cat) but hasn't been able to build on that.

(02-17-2017 03:18 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  Herb Sendek? Really? Ironically his 72-88 record at State is virtually identical to his 72-90 record at Arizona State. He clearly has a ceiling as a coach and it is 6-8 conference wins per year.

Sendek's last 5 years' ACC wins at NCSU 9, 9, 11, 7, 10. That doesn't include ACC tournament wins.

NCSU fans are loony tunes. I say that as a Raleigh native, ex-NCSU fan and with about 10 NCSU fans / multiple boosters in my family. Y'all are insane. Bottom line is Sendek couldn't beat UNC and Duke regularly and it made boosters butthurt which drove him away. You're never going to find another Jimmy V. It's better to just accept that fact.

It certainly isn't a lock that they will find a great coach, but you never have the chance if you stick with subpar. However, Gottfried and Sendek are south of average, mediocre head coaches.

If some head coaches are scared off by a former TV analyst that no one else wanted losing his job after two quite poor seasons, then State has to deal with that and can find someone else. The fake outrage by some media members and Calipari is nothing but laughable however.

(02-21-2017 12:00 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-17-2017 03:18 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  Herb Sendek? Really? Ironically his 72-88 record at State is virtually identical to his 72-90 record at Arizona State. He clearly has a ceiling as a coach and it is 6-8 conference wins per year.

Sendek's last 5 years' ACC wins at NCSU 9, 9, 11, 7, 10. That doesn't include ACC tournament wins.

NCSU fans are loony tunes. I say that as a Raleigh native, ex-NCSU fan and with about 10 NCSU fans / multiple boosters in my family. Y'all are insane. Bottom line is Sendek couldn't beat UNC and Duke regularly and it made boosters butthurt which drove him away. You're never going to find another Jimmy V. It's better to just accept that fact.

State fans aren't loony tunes. They want to see a return to the level they achieved prior to the late 1980s. That would mean challenging for conference championships and the chance to win a national championship. Any true fan that doesn't aspire to that isn't a true fan at all.

This is big money college basketball. These coaches earn huge salaries and as a result there are high expectations. If we were talking about high school coaches earning 40k a year then sure being a good coach, nice guy and excellent role model should keep him in place until retirement. That isn't what we are talking about at the college level though. Big money means big results and when it doesn't it means it is time to find someone else to do the job. It isn't that complicated.

(02-21-2017 12:00 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-17-2017 03:18 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  Herb Sendek? Really? Ironically his 72-88 record at State is virtually identical to his 72-90 record at Arizona State. He clearly has a ceiling as a coach and it is 6-8 conference wins per year.

Sendek's last 5 years' ACC wins at NCSU 9, 9, 11, 7, 10. That doesn't include ACC tournament wins.

NCSU fans are loony tunes. I say that as a Raleigh native, ex-NCSU fan and with about 10 NCSU fans / multiple boosters in my family. Y'all are insane. Bottom line is Sendek couldn't beat UNC and Duke regularly and it made boosters butthurt which drove him away. You're never going to find another Jimmy V. It's better to just accept that fact.

He averaged 7.2 wins at NC State. He averaged 8 wins at Arizona State.

(02-23-2017 07:22 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  

(02-21-2017 12:00 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-17-2017 03:18 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  Herb Sendek? Really? Ironically his 72-88 record at State is virtually identical to his 72-90 record at Arizona State. He clearly has a ceiling as a coach and it is 6-8 conference wins per year.

Sendek's last 5 years' ACC wins at NCSU 9, 9, 11, 7, 10. That doesn't include ACC tournament wins.

NCSU fans are loony tunes. I say that as a Raleigh native, ex-NCSU fan and with about 10 NCSU fans / multiple boosters in my family. Y'all are insane. Bottom line is Sendek couldn't beat UNC and Duke regularly and it made boosters butthurt which drove him away. You're never going to find another Jimmy V. It's better to just accept that fact.

He averaged 7.2 wins at NC State. He averaged 8 wins at Arizona State.

While I don't buy the loony tunes comment, his point is a valid one. While Sendek's overall conference record is a .450 win%, he did inherit a mess from Les Robinson that took a while to overcome.

And yes, he averaged 7.2 conference wins a year at State. By contrast, Jim Valvano averaged 7.1. In Sendek's last five years at State, he had a winning %age of .575 in the ACC, compared to Valvano's .557. I think most State fans would take a reincarnation of Valvano in a heartbeat. The difference wasn't in wins, though - it was in charisma.

For better or worse, State can't escape the comparisons with the two ACC schools located 30 miles away. As much as they will deny it, deep down the success of Roy Williams and Coach K is a standard they want to measure their own coaches by, and very few coaches can meet that high bar. Exciting as he was, Valvano's .507 winning % didn't even compare favorably to his predecessor, Norm Sloan (.572).

Now set the bar at Williams' .723 and K's .710 and no coach who is likely to accept the State job today is in that league. But many State fans have long memories, and point to the success of Everett Case, who won at a .712 clip in an 18 year career at State that spanned the Southern Conference years (7) and the ACC years (11). Why shouldn't they aspire to reach those heights again?

Well, even Case couldn't reach those heights again either. He won a staggering 85.8% of his conference games in his first 10 years at State. He made the ACC great, and in so doing inspired both UNC and Duke to get serious about basketball. And they did - with a vengeance. In Case's last 8 seasons at State (starting in 1957) he did okay. But his .539 win% was fairly pedestrian, a point often forgotten by State fans.

What is State's ceiling today? Maybe it's higher than in the recent past. But for the long haul, competition in the best hoops league in the country is going to put a cap on it that's lower than the memories of older State fans are ready to accept. Maybe they need to adjust their sights to reflect that reality.

Good points for consideration Ken, although I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. State realistically shouldn't expect to become the equal of their two neighbors if the neighbors continue their pace once K and Roy retire. All that said, Gott still needed to go.

(02-23-2017 11:36 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-23-2017 07:22 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  

(02-21-2017 12:00 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-17-2017 03:18 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  Herb Sendek? Really? Ironically his 72-88 record at State is virtually identical to his 72-90 record at Arizona State. He clearly has a ceiling as a coach and it is 6-8 conference wins per year.

Sendek's last 5 years' ACC wins at NCSU 9, 9, 11, 7, 10. That doesn't include ACC tournament wins.

NCSU fans are loony tunes. I say that as a Raleigh native, ex-NCSU fan and with about 10 NCSU fans / multiple boosters in my family. Y'all are insane. Bottom line is Sendek couldn't beat UNC and Duke regularly and it made boosters butthurt which drove him away. You're never going to find another Jimmy V. It's better to just accept that fact.

He averaged 7.2 wins at NC State. He averaged 8 wins at Arizona State.

While I don't buy the loony tunes comment, his point is a valid one. While Sendek's overall conference record is a .450 win%, he did inherit a mess from Les Robinson that took a while to overcome.

And yes, he averaged 7.2 conference wins a year at State. By contrast, Jim Valvano averaged 7.1. In Sendek's last five years at State, he had a winning %age of .575 in the ACC, compared to Valvano's .557. I think most State fans would take a reincarnation of Valvano in a heartbeat. The difference wasn't in wins, though - it was in charisma.

For better or worse, State can't escape the comparisons with the two ACC schools located 30 miles away. As much as they will deny it, deep down the success of Roy Williams and Coach K is a standard they want to measure their own coaches by, and very few coaches can meet that high bar. Exciting as he was, Valvano's .507 winning % didn't even compare favorably to his predecessor, Norm Sloan (.572).

Now set the bar at Williams' .723 and K's .710 and no coach who is likely to accept the State job today is in that league. But many State fans have long memories, and point to the success of Everett Case, who won at a .712 clip in an 18 year career at State that spanned the Southern Conference years (7) and the ACC years (11). Why shouldn't they aspire to reach those heights again?

Well, even Case couldn't reach those heights again either. He won a staggering 85.8% of his conference games in his first 10 years at State. He made the ACC great, and in so doing inspired both UNC and Duke to get serious about basketball. And they did - with a vengeance. In Case's last 8 seasons at State (starting in 1957) he did okay. But his .539 win% was fairly pedestrian, a point often forgotten by State fans.

What is State's ceiling today? Maybe it's higher than in the recent past. But for the long haul, competition in the best hoops league in the country is going to put a cap on it that's lower than the memories of older State fans are ready to accept. Maybe they need to adjust their sights to reflect that reality.

No, crunch numbers all you want. What is expected, and should be expected at any major college program is to challenge for conference championships and thus national championships. These coaches are being paid millions of dollars and should expect constant pressure to produce a winning program. When there is not obvious progress in that regard over a five year period it is time to part ways. No ifs ands or buts.

(02-25-2017 12:40 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(02-23-2017 11:36 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-23-2017 07:22 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  

(02-21-2017 12:00 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-17-2017 03:18 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  Herb Sendek? Really? Ironically his 72-88 record at State is virtually identical to his 72-90 record at Arizona State. He clearly has a ceiling as a coach and it is 6-8 conference wins per year.

Sendek's last 5 years' ACC wins at NCSU 9, 9, 11, 7, 10. That doesn't include ACC tournament wins.

NCSU fans are loony tunes. I say that as a Raleigh native, ex-NCSU fan and with about 10 NCSU fans / multiple boosters in my family. Y'all are insane. Bottom line is Sendek couldn't beat UNC and Duke regularly and it made boosters butthurt which drove him away. You're never going to find another Jimmy V. It's better to just accept that fact.

He averaged 7.2 wins at NC State. He averaged 8 wins at Arizona State.

While I don't buy the loony tunes comment, his point is a valid one. While Sendek's overall conference record is a .450 win%, he did inherit a mess from Les Robinson that took a while to overcome.

And yes, he averaged 7.2 conference wins a year at State. By contrast, Jim Valvano averaged 7.1. In Sendek's last five years at State, he had a winning %age of .575 in the ACC, compared to Valvano's .557. I think most State fans would take a reincarnation of Valvano in a heartbeat. The difference wasn't in wins, though - it was in charisma.

For better or worse, State can't escape the comparisons with the two ACC schools located 30 miles away. As much as they will deny it, deep down the success of Roy Williams and Coach K is a standard they want to measure their own coaches by, and very few coaches can meet that high bar. Exciting as he was, Valvano's .507 winning % didn't even compare favorably to his predecessor, Norm Sloan (.572).

Now set the bar at Williams' .723 and K's .710 and no coach who is likely to accept the State job today is in that league. But many State fans have long memories, and point to the success of Everett Case, who won at a .712 clip in an 18 year career at State that spanned the Southern Conference years (7) and the ACC years (11). Why shouldn't they aspire to reach those heights again?

Well, even Case couldn't reach those heights again either. He won a staggering 85.8% of his conference games in his first 10 years at State. He made the ACC great, and in so doing inspired both UNC and Duke to get serious about basketball. And they did - with a vengeance. In Case's last 8 seasons at State (starting in 1957) he did okay. But his .539 win% was fairly pedestrian, a point often forgotten by State fans.

What is State's ceiling today? Maybe it's higher than in the recent past. But for the long haul, competition in the best hoops league in the country is going to put a cap on it that's lower than the memories of older State fans are ready to accept. Maybe they need to adjust their sights to reflect that reality.

No, crunch numbers all you want. What is expected, and should be expected at any major college program is to challenge for conference championships and thus national championships. These coaches are being paid millions of dollars and should expect constant pressure to produce a winning program. When there is not obvious progress in that regard over a five year period it is time to part ways. No ifs ands or buts.

Yep, but if you have winners, there will be losers.
Ironic isn't it...all of the Ag schools in the ACC are now lesser basketball schools.

(02-25-2017 12:40 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(02-23-2017 11:36 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-23-2017 07:22 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  

(02-21-2017 12:00 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:  

(02-17-2017 03:18 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  Herb Sendek? Really? Ironically his 72-88 record at State is virtually identical to his 72-90 record at Arizona State. He clearly has a ceiling as a coach and it is 6-8 conference wins per year.

Sendek's last 5 years' ACC wins at NCSU 9, 9, 11, 7, 10. That doesn't include ACC tournament wins.

NCSU fans are loony tunes. I say that as a Raleigh native, ex-NCSU fan and with about 10 NCSU fans / multiple boosters in my family. Y'all are insane. Bottom line is Sendek couldn't beat UNC and Duke regularly and it made boosters butthurt which drove him away. You're never going to find another Jimmy V. It's better to just accept that fact.

He averaged 7.2 wins at NC State. He averaged 8 wins at Arizona State.

While I don't buy the loony tunes comment, his point is a valid one. While Sendek's overall conference record is a .450 win%, he did inherit a mess from Les Robinson that took a while to overcome.

And yes, he averaged 7.2 conference wins a year at State. By contrast, Jim Valvano averaged 7.1. In Sendek's last five years at State, he had a winning %age of .575 in the ACC, compared to Valvano's .557. I think most State fans would take a reincarnation of Valvano in a heartbeat. The difference wasn't in wins, though - it was in charisma.

For better or worse, State can't escape the comparisons with the two ACC schools located 30 miles away. As much as they will deny it, deep down the success of Roy Williams and Coach K is a standard they want to measure their own coaches by, and very few coaches can meet that high bar. Exciting as he was, Valvano's .507 winning % didn't even compare favorably to his predecessor, Norm Sloan (.572).

Now set the bar at Williams' .723 and K's .710 and no coach who is likely to accept the State job today is in that league. But many State fans have long memories, and point to the success of Everett Case, who won at a .712 clip in an 18 year career at State that spanned the Southern Conference years (7) and the ACC years (11). Why shouldn't they aspire to reach those heights again?

Well, even Case couldn't reach those heights again either. He won a staggering 85.8% of his conference games in his first 10 years at State. He made the ACC great, and in so doing inspired both UNC and Duke to get serious about basketball. And they did - with a vengeance. In Case's last 8 seasons at State (starting in 1957) he did okay. But his .539 win% was fairly pedestrian, a point often forgotten by State fans.

What is State's ceiling today? Maybe it's higher than in the recent past. But for the long haul, competition in the best hoops league in the country is going to put a cap on it that's lower than the memories of older State fans are ready to accept. Maybe they need to adjust their sights to reflect that reality.

No, crunch numbers all you want. What is expected, and should be expected at any major college program is to challenge for conference championships and thus national championships. These coaches are being paid millions of dollars and should expect constant pressure to produce a winning program. When there is not obvious progress in that regard over a five year period it is time to part ways. No ifs ands or buts.

My point had nothing to do with how what decisions a school should make about retaining coaches. When I said "maybe they need to adjust their sights", I was referring to fans and their expectations.

I think it was Bill Parcells who said: "You are who your record says you are." And State's record says they have been mediocre. For the past 61 years, they have won 47% of their conference games. Only 4 times during that stretch did they finish first in the ACC regular season, and two of those came when State had arguably the best player in the country in David Thompson. The last time was 28 years ago, when the ACC still had 8 teams.

It's one thing to hope that your team will become consistent championship contenders. It's quite another to expect it. I don't think it's unreasonable for unbiased sports fans to shake their heads in disbelief when State fans describe their vacant coaching job as one of the top jobs in the country. It hasn't been that for most of their adult lives. And when it was that, the league didn't have nearly the number of outstanding programs that it has today.

(02-25-2017 08:23 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:40 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(02-23-2017 11:36 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-23-2017 07:22 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  

(02-21-2017 12:00 PM)Hood-rich Wrote:   Sendek's last 5 years' ACC wins at NCSU 9, 9, 11, 7, 10. That doesn't include ACC tournament wins.

NCSU fans are loony tunes. I say that as a Raleigh native, ex-NCSU fan and with about 10 NCSU fans / multiple boosters in my family. Y'all are insane. Bottom line is Sendek couldn't beat UNC and Duke regularly and it made boosters butthurt which drove him away. You're never going to find another Jimmy V. It's better to just accept that fact.

He averaged 7.2 wins at NC State. He averaged 8 wins at Arizona State.

While I don't buy the loony tunes comment, his point is a valid one. While Sendek's overall conference record is a .450 win%, he did inherit a mess from Les Robinson that took a while to overcome.

And yes, he averaged 7.2 conference wins a year at State. By contrast, Jim Valvano averaged 7.1. In Sendek's last five years at State, he had a winning %age of .575 in the ACC, compared to Valvano's .557. I think most State fans would take a reincarnation of Valvano in a heartbeat. The difference wasn't in wins, though - it was in charisma.

For better or worse, State can't escape the comparisons with the two ACC schools located 30 miles away. As much as they will deny it, deep down the success of Roy Williams and Coach K is a standard they want to measure their own coaches by, and very few coaches can meet that high bar. Exciting as he was, Valvano's .507 winning % didn't even compare favorably to his predecessor, Norm Sloan (.572).

Now set the bar at Williams' .723 and K's .710 and no coach who is likely to accept the State job today is in that league. But many State fans have long memories, and point to the success of Everett Case, who won at a .712 clip in an 18 year career at State that spanned the Southern Conference years (7) and the ACC years (11). Why shouldn't they aspire to reach those heights again?

Well, even Case couldn't reach those heights again either. He won a staggering 85.8% of his conference games in his first 10 years at State. He made the ACC great, and in so doing inspired both UNC and Duke to get serious about basketball. And they did - with a vengeance. In Case's last 8 seasons at State (starting in 1957) he did okay. But his .539 win% was fairly pedestrian, a point often forgotten by State fans.

What is State's ceiling today? Maybe it's higher than in the recent past. But for the long haul, competition in the best hoops league in the country is going to put a cap on it that's lower than the memories of older State fans are ready to accept. Maybe they need to adjust their sights to reflect that reality.

No, crunch numbers all you want. What is expected, and should be expected at any major college program is to challenge for conference championships and thus national championships. These coaches are being paid millions of dollars and should expect constant pressure to produce a winning program. When there is not obvious progress in that regard over a five year period it is time to part ways. No ifs ands or buts.

My point had nothing to do with how what decisions a school should make about retaining coaches. When I said "maybe they need to adjust their sights", I was referring to fans and their expectations.

I think it was Bill Parcells who said: "You are who your record says you are." And State's record says they have been mediocre. For the past 61 years, they have won 47% of their conference games. Only 4 times during that stretch did they finish first in the ACC regular season, and two of those came when State had arguably the best player in the country in David Thompson. The last time was 28 years ago, when the ACC still had 8 teams.

It's one thing to hope that your team will become consistent championship contenders. It's quite another to expect it. I don't think it's unreasonable for unbiased sports fans to shake their heads in disbelief when State fans describe their vacant coaching job as one of the top jobs in the country. It hasn't been that for most of their adult lives. And when it was that, the league didn't have nearly the number of outstanding programs that it has today.

It depends on how large a pool of schools you include in your "top job" category. It your pool is one to three jobs in the top three or four conferences then nope, then the state position isn't one. That group would be very exclusive, UNC, Duke, Louisville, Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, Indiana and maybe Arizona, Ohio State and Texas. If the pool is larger, then NC State is a top job. They are in the top conference in the country. Attendance is very high even when they aren't winning regularly. There is a strong alumni base. There is a large athletic budget. The coach earns more than most other coaches in the field. There is a rich history which includes two national championships. Aren't there about 300 division I schools? I'd say the job is in the top 10%, one of the 30 best jobs in college basketball. Better than 90% of jobs seems to fit the bill for, "one of the top jobs" to me.

(02-26-2017 10:41 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 08:23 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-25-2017 12:40 PM)dawgitall Wrote:  

(02-23-2017 11:36 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-23-2017 07:22 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  He averaged 7.2 wins at NC State. He averaged 8 wins at Arizona State.

While I don't buy the loony tunes comment, his point is a valid one. While Sendek's overall conference record is a .450 win%, he did inherit a mess from Les Robinson that took a while to overcome.

And yes, he averaged 7.2 conference wins a year at State. By contrast, Jim Valvano averaged 7.1. In Sendek's last five years at State, he had a winning %age of .575 in the ACC, compared to Valvano's .557. I think most State fans would take a reincarnation of Valvano in a heartbeat. The difference wasn't in wins, though - it was in charisma.

For better or worse, State can't escape the comparisons with the two ACC schools located 30 miles away. As much as they will deny it, deep down the success of Roy Williams and Coach K is a standard they want to measure their own coaches by, and very few coaches can meet that high bar. Exciting as he was, Valvano's .507 winning % didn't even compare favorably to his predecessor, Norm Sloan (.572).

Now set the bar at Williams' .723 and K's .710 and no coach who is likely to accept the State job today is in that league. But many State fans have long memories, and point to the success of Everett Case, who won at a .712 clip in an 18 year career at State that spanned the Southern Conference years (7) and the ACC years (11). Why shouldn't they aspire to reach those heights again?

Well, even Case couldn't reach those heights again either. He won a staggering 85.8% of his conference games in his first 10 years at State. He made the ACC great, and in so doing inspired both UNC and Duke to get serious about basketball. And they did - with a vengeance. In Case's last 8 seasons at State (starting in 1957) he did okay. But his .539 win% was fairly pedestrian, a point often forgotten by State fans.

What is State's ceiling today? Maybe it's higher than in the recent past. But for the long haul, competition in the best hoops league in the country is going to put a cap on it that's lower than the memories of older State fans are ready to accept. Maybe they need to adjust their sights to reflect that reality.

No, crunch numbers all you want. What is expected, and should be expected at any major college program is to challenge for conference championships and thus national championships. These coaches are being paid millions of dollars and should expect constant pressure to produce a winning program. When there is not obvious progress in that regard over a five year period it is time to part ways. No ifs ands or buts.

My point had nothing to do with how what decisions a school should make about retaining coaches. When I said "maybe they need to adjust their sights", I was referring to fans and their expectations.

I think it was Bill Parcells who said: "You are who your record says you are." And State's record says they have been mediocre. For the past 61 years, they have won 47% of their conference games. Only 4 times during that stretch did they finish first in the ACC regular season, and two of those came when State had arguably the best player in the country in David Thompson. The last time was 28 years ago, when the ACC still had 8 teams.

It's one thing to hope that your team will become consistent championship contenders. It's quite another to expect it. I don't think it's unreasonable for unbiased sports fans to shake their heads in disbelief when State fans describe their vacant coaching job as one of the top jobs in the country. It hasn't been that for most of their adult lives. And when it was that, the league didn't have nearly the number of outstanding programs that it has today.

It depends on how large a pool of schools you include in your "top job" category. It your pool is one to three jobs in the top three or four conferences then nope, then the state position isn't one. That group would be very exclusive, UNC, Duke, Louisville, Kansas, Kentucky, UCLA, Indiana and maybe Arizona, Ohio State and Texas. If the pool is larger, then NC State is a top job. They are in the top conference in the country. Attendance is very high even when they aren't winning regularly. There is a strong alumni base. There is a large athletic budget. The coach earns more than most other coaches in the field. There is a rich history which includes two national championships. Aren't there about 300 division I schools? I'd say the job is in the top 10%, one of the 30 best jobs in college basketball. Better than 90% of jobs seems to fit the bill for, "one of the top jobs" to me.

Well, that's just a difference in how one defines "top job". State isn't ever going to be competing with schools like Central Connecticut State or Longwood for coaching talent. To me, the fact that State is competing with schools in the A-10 or MVC for coaches says they aren't a "top job". I would consider that a P5 school has a "top coaching job" if other P5 head coaches would consider leaving their current job for yours (when their current job isn't in jeopardy), or if the list of schools your coach would consider leaving you for is very small (like the blue bloods you mention).

In State's case, that would mean you have a top job if Sean Miller would be applying for your vacant job, but not if Archie Miller would. IMO, maybe there are as many as 30 successful P5 head coaches that would consider leaving for the State job, but I wouldn't bet on it.

(02-26-2017 01:48 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-26-2017 10:41 AM)dawgitall Wrote:  Aren't there about 300 division I schools? I'd say the job is in the top 10%, one of the 30 best jobs in college basketball. Better than 90% of jobs seems to fit the bill for, "one of the top jobs" to me.

Well, that's just a difference in how one defines "top job". State isn't ever going to be competing with schools like Central Connecticut State or Longwood for coaching talent. To me, the fact that State is competing with schools in the A-10 or MVC for coaches says they aren't a "top job". I would consider that a P5 school has a "top coaching job" if other P5 head coaches would consider leaving their current job for yours (when their current job isn't in jeopardy), or if the list of schools your coach would consider leaving you for is very small (like the blue bloods you mention).

In State's case, that would mean you have a top job if Sean Miller would be applying for your vacant job, but not if Archie Miller would. IMO, maybe there are as many as 30 successful P5 head coaches that would consider leaving for the State job, but I wouldn't bet on it.

I have to agree with Ken for the most part. Remember also that I agreed with firing Gott.There are 350+ D1 jobs and yes State is better than a very large majority of them, but that doesn't really say much. Half of D1 plays in glorified high school gyms in front of a few thousand at best most nights. No one contests that ANY P6 job rates above small conference schools.

There are 75 P6 jobs counting the Big East. I'm not sure there are 20 of those coaches that would leave for NC State currently. Why go there and compete with your close neighbor blue bloods if you have a decent thing going at a P6 for the most part?

State likely will pull a coach from a mid major and that could lead to great things. I wish them luck.

I disagree. There are few successful coaches in major conferences that are going to leave their school for a similar job at another major conference. When the Duke, CH, or Kansas positions open up someone will but I don't see anyone at a successful school leaving for State or Arizona State or Alabama. The pool of coaches are naturally going to come from the mid-majors or below because that is where successful coaches are going to be found.

There are exceptions but a lot of the great coaches made a stop in the mid-majors. It's not a bad thing for a program like State to look to the mid-majors for coaching candidates. Where would Duke be if they passed on Coach K because he had only coached at Army??

Quote:It's one thing to hope that your team will become consistent championship contenders. It's quite another to expect it.

I think every coach in every sport at every level would agree with this. I also think they would tell you that if you don't take the court expecting to win, you have already lost.

(02-26-2017 07:31 PM)Wolfman Wrote:  There are exceptions but a lot of the great coaches made a stop in the mid-majors. It's not a bad thing for a program like State to look to the mid-majors for coaching candidates. Where would Duke be if they passed on Coach K because he had only coached at Army??

Quote:It's one thing to hope that your team will become consistent championship contenders. It's quite another to expect it.

I think every coach in every sport at every level would agree with this. I also think they would tell you that if you don't take the court expecting to win, you have already lost.

It's absolutely not a bad thing for State to be looking to mid-majors for its next coach. If I remember correctly, that's where they found a guy named Valvano. It's where Duke found a guy with a name people still can't spell.

I hope that State finds a way to avoid some of their recent search debacles, in which they were always having to defend why they were targeting guys like Calipari and Billy Donovan and then settling for guys like Sidney Lowe. It was searches like those that gave rise to the belief by many sports fans that State (or State fans) are delusional.

Because that scares off mid-major coaches that could be just what State is looking for.