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How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
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XLance Offline
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Post: #21
RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
Interestingly Cal opens the season in Chapel Hill this year.
Who will pay their expenses?
02-07-2017 12:28 PM
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Cyniclone Offline
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Post: #22
RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
(02-07-2017 06:47 AM)TerpsNPhoenix Wrote:  NC HB2 causing problems for Elon's 2017 football schedule (link to full article is below/not a long article if you want to read it)

"Elon is slated to play the State University of New York at Albany in a home game in 2017, but New York’s ban on nonessential travel to the state of North Carolina has created complications for the two schools and the Colonial Athletic Association (CAA).

And while most schools in the CAA have released their schedules during the past few days, Elon’s and UAlbany’s remain in limbo while the schools and CAA commissioner Joe D’Antonio attempt to work out a way to play the game.

When New York Governor Andrew Cuomo banned all non-essential state travel to North Carolina March 28, 2016, the CAA did not feel an immediate impact from the move. The only all-sports school from New York — Hofstra University — is a private institution, and thus not beholden to the ban.

But two football-only schools — UAlbany and Stony Brook University — are state schools. Elon played at UAlbany Oct. 29, 2016, and Albany is supposed to return to face the Phoenix in 2017.

In a phone interview Saturday, Jan. 21, CAA spokesman Rob Washburn said the parties are exploring all alternatives, but didn’t comment when asked if the game may not be played at all." (Bold is mine)

http://www.elonnewsnetwork.com/article/2...y-new-york

Don't think the ACC has any scheduling issues (besides they can't get NCAA sanctioned events). I don't know about other schools here in NC but HB2 is certainly having an impact on Elon.

The New York order has the same proviso about prior contractual obligations that the California bill does. Can Albany and Stony Brook's agreement with CAA Football be considered a contractual obligation, and if so, wouldn't they be obligated to adhere to whatever schedule the conference creates?
02-07-2017 12:34 PM
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Cyniclone Offline
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Post: #23
RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
(02-07-2017 12:28 PM)XLance Wrote:  Interestingly Cal opens the season in Chapel Hill this year.
Who will pay their expenses?

That game was contractually established prior to Jan. 1, so it should be SOP.
02-07-2017 12:35 PM
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58-56 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
(02-07-2017 10:51 AM)Attackcoog Wrote:  These are laws designed to fix an issue that hasn't been an issue. It never has been an issue. The whole thing is a manufactured crisis and its silly.

It actually makes a great deal of sense on a certain level. We live in a world filled with fear, much of either manufactured whole cloth or ramped up from a much smaller legit core. What better type of issue to fire up the bases - born-agains, L+ people, whatever - than an issue that anyone with half a brain knows really doesn't matter? We can get all fired up and we can chant heyheyhoho and we can pray to baby Jesus but at the end of the day it's just like episodic TV: nothing has changed and the next episode starts exactly where the last one did. So we can feel this little frisson (sorry, I went to UAB so I use words like frisson) but it's not really going to kill us and we can sleep just fine at night.
02-07-2017 12:53 PM
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CenterSquarEd Offline
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Post: #25
RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
(02-07-2017 12:34 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  The New York order has the same proviso about prior contractual obligations that the California bill does. Can Albany and Stony Brook's agreement with CAA Football be considered a contractual obligation, and if so, wouldn't they be obligated to adhere to whatever schedule the conference creates?

Alright, I asked a government attorney who won't be affiliated with this decision. This person thinks yes, conference membership rules could be interpreted as a prior contractual obligation. That doesn't count as official legal advice, just the musings of sports fans.

UAlbany did back out of a non-conference men's basketball game at Duke, but that obviously didn't have anything to do with conference affiliation.
02-07-2017 12:54 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #26
RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
(02-07-2017 09:29 AM)CenterSquarEd Wrote:  I'll be curious to see how restrooms are designed at stadiums and arenas in the future. It's not uncommon already for small restaurants to have two non-gender-specific restrooms, at least in the East Coast cities where I'm likely to be. This would be impractical at a sports facility where you can't dedicate that sort of space to giving everyone exclusive use of a toilet and sink for however long they want. Could we see non-gender-specific sink areas? And larger, more private stalls that aren't gender-specific?

A few places here in phoenix are going to all stalls, with a common sink area.

Seems to be working with no issues.
02-07-2017 01:06 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #27
RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
I would hate to see public sports facilities make drastic changes to their bathroom plans just to comply with laws that have no real purpose anyway. As others have pointed out, there has never been a problem in the past, and the proposed or already enacted bills actually create a problem that never existed.

The very fact that sports are an arena most clearly affected is likely IMO to be the thing that makes bill proponents back down. Americans will put up with a lot of crap, but when it starts to limit who and where schools can schedule sports events, we will probably draw the line. Football and basketball aren't life or death to Americans - they are a lot more important than that.

Give it time, and we'll all come to our senses.
02-07-2017 01:18 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #28
RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
(02-06-2017 07:31 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  First, please don't debate whether so-called "bathroom bills" are right or wrong, or if California is right/wrong on prohibiting travel to these states. I don't want this thread to end up in the Spin Room. I want to discuss how this affects college sports.


California has banned any "STATE-FUNDED AND STATE-SPONSORED TRAVEL" to states with transgender bathroom bills. I have confirmed that this includes any travel by any university representative that will be reimbursed by any source affiliated with the university (including the endowment or other private donors arranged through the school). To my knowledge, this includes the sports team of any state-sponsored university.

As of now, the list of banned states is Tennessee, Kansas, Mississippi, and North Carolina. Also, a dozen more states (including Washington and Wyoming) have introduced "bathroom bills" to their legislatures this year.

If Washington or Wyoming pass their bathroom bills, this means that conference games will have to be canceled for Cal & UCLA or for San Diego State, Fresno State, and San Jose State. Could this cause more conference reallignment? Or will the state schools in Washington/Wyoming (or whoever else passes a bathroom bill) abandon their right to home conference games?

I hope everyone keeps it civil.


I think people might do well to understand that the legislation in California and NY only addresses localities where they've passed a bill that is anti-LGBT. They haven't (yet) passed bills banning to places where no protections ever existed. If California or NY or Mass did that, then the real chaos would ensue.

This could cause more conference realignment.

The Pac12 - will be fine so long as none of their states pass anti-LGBT bills. This looks unlikely at this point.
The ACC - does NOT have a problem at this time as they currently have no PUBLIC institutions covered by these bills
The CAA - has a big problem.
The Atlantic 10 - MIGHT have a problem if Rhode Island or Mass pass similar legislation banning travel to states with anti-LGBT bills.
The AAC - MIGHT have a problem if CT follows NY.

---

So long as its just one or two states that are unable to host, most conferences and sporting events can just move around them. Ok, CT passes the same bill...then ECU and Uconn just don't play. And NC doesn't get to host anything. For teams like UNC or Duke, plenty of teams will want to play them OOC. I'm seeing the smaller schools paying the biggest price for this. Schools like Elon, Gardner-Webb, and App. These schools will find getting OOC games at home much harder to find and might have issues with football scheduling as well.

---

One final note.

At least one of Wyoming's anti-LGBT bills died this week. I'd be VERY surprised if the Dems passed a bill like NC's in Washington state. At least one of the three Alabama bills is dead. Someone will decide to pass a bill. But it might allow for cities and counties to pass their own ordinances mitigating it.

I'm watching Texas right now.
(This post was last modified: 02-07-2017 03:36 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
02-07-2017 03:19 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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Post: #29
RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
(02-07-2017 12:30 AM)jdgaucho Wrote:  It can put teams in an awkward position, especially for the NCAA Tournament for Olympic sports where you can't really control where teams go.

Last year UC Santa Barbara baseball was sent to Vanderbilt for a regional. Let's say we were to meet them in a Super Regional. The travel ban prevents us from going to Nashville, and our facility is not suitable for hosting. What then?

You'd be playing somewhere else. So long as the numbers of states that are not acceptable is small, its easy enough for the NCAA to just keep California and NY teams out of those regionals.
02-07-2017 04:04 PM
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TomThumb Offline
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Post: #30
RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
One thing to keep in mind is that the NCAA itself agrees with the sentiment behind these "no travel" laws. Just look at how they reacted in NC. So whatever they end up doing, I think it's more likely that schools in those states with bathroom bills get screwed rather than schools in Cali/NY.
(This post was last modified: 02-07-2017 04:20 PM by TomThumb.)
02-07-2017 04:19 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #31
RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
(02-07-2017 04:04 PM)Tom in Lazybrook Wrote:  
(02-07-2017 12:30 AM)jdgaucho Wrote:  It can put teams in an awkward position, especially for the NCAA Tournament for Olympic sports where you can't really control where teams go.

Last year UC Santa Barbara baseball was sent to Vanderbilt for a regional. Let's say we were to meet them in a Super Regional. The travel ban prevents us from going to Nashville, and our facility is not suitable for hosting. What then?

You'd be playing somewhere else. So long as the numbers of states that are not acceptable is small, its easy enough for the NCAA to just keep California and NY teams out of those regionals.

Just like they do for BYU - move them from Regionals that would play on Sundays.
02-07-2017 04:26 PM
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HarmonOliphantOberlanderDevine Offline
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Post: #32
RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
It shouldn't impact college sports but it will.
02-07-2017 08:07 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #33
RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
Just saw this today - the California law is already having an impact:

Cal nixes Kansas series talks over LGBT law

I predict that within a couple of years, California schools will be unable to play at 1/4 of NCAA arenas.

It's a darn shame - I can't think of any worse way to deepen the divide in the USA than refusing to even be in the same state as those who disagree with you.
02-09-2017 11:26 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #34
RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
(02-09-2017 11:26 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Just saw this today - the California law is already having an impact:

Cal nixes Kansas series talks over LGBT law

I predict that within a couple of years, California schools will be unable to play at 1/4 of NCAA arenas.

It's a darn shame - I can't think of any worse way to deepen the divide in the USA than overbearing state legislatures continually pushing discriminatory laws in order to satisfy a hardcore base that refuses to live up to the fact that the rest of the world has passed them by.

FIFY

Fighting against discrimination isn't merely "disagreeing". If certain states want to kill their economic prospects because they want to cow-tow to a backwards subset of their respective populations, then that's their prerogative. North Carolina already figured that out the hard way.
02-09-2017 11:41 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #35
RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
(02-09-2017 11:26 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Just saw this today - the California law is already having an impact:

Cal nixes Kansas series talks over LGBT law

I predict that within a couple of years, California schools will be unable to play at 1/4 of NCAA arenas.

It's a darn shame - I can't think of any worse way to deepen the divide in the USA than refusing to even be in the same state as those who disagree with you.

Also, I think the bolded is going to end up being wrong. The other part of this with the wackiness of these state legislatures is that they belie the sharp overall trends of the public. There is probably no social issue since the push to end racial segregation that has gained more traction more quickly than support for LGBT rights. The pro-choice/pro-life and gun control/gun rights divide has remained virtually unchanged percentage-wise for the past 4 decades, but support for LGBT rights has SKYROCKETED in the past 10 years and it has been rising exponentially faster during the past 5 years in a sharp curve. This is very similar to how society changed in its views toward racial segregation - it was basically unchanged percentage-wise for decades until the early-1960s... and then the country swiftly turned to where what was "politically acceptable" about that issue completely changed. These anti-LGBT bills are the equivalent of George Wallace making his last stand in the late-1960s/early-1970s to attempt to turn back time. Within the next 5 to 10 years, politicians attempting to take these anti-LGBT stances truly won't be politically viable anymore even in the more socially conservative states. North Carolina already saw this pushback and they got hammered for it (and the state ended up voting the GOP governor out of office even when Trump wildly out-performed expectations at the top of the ticket there). We certainly won't see places like the State of Washington ever pass a bathroom bill.
(This post was last modified: 02-09-2017 12:24 PM by Frank the Tank.)
02-09-2017 12:20 PM
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10thMountain Offline
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Post: #36
RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
Look this isn't the politics board but it's unfair to dismiss the legitimate debate in this country about when it is apropriate to differentiate between the social construct of gender identity and the physical construct of biological sex

Bathrooms are the perfect example of this.

Currently they are separated by biological sex (XX vs XY) which is only problematic for a small element of the population and frankly my position is if you're a different genotype like XYY, then it's your choice (no system meant for the masses can ever cater to everyone, only as many as possible)


However basing them on the artificial social construct of gender identity which is an intangible idea is at best highly problematic because it's totally subjective to the preferences of the individual and impossible to scale for mass use policy because it literally varies from one person to the next.

Just my 2 cents

Carry on
(This post was last modified: 02-09-2017 04:11 PM by 10thMountain.)
02-09-2017 04:08 PM
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ken d Offline
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RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
(02-09-2017 04:08 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  Look this isn't the politics board but it's unfair to dismiss the legitimate debate in this country about when it is apropriate to differentiate between the social construct of gender identity and the physical construct of biological sex

Bathrooms are the perfect example of this.

Currently they are separated by biological sex (XX vs XY) which is only problematic for a small element of the population and frankly my position is if you're a different genotype like XYY, then it's your choice (no system meant for the masses can ever cater to everyone, only as many as possible)


However basing them on the artificial social construct of gender identity which is an intangible idea is at best highly problematic because it's totally subjective to the preferences of the individual and impossible to scale for mass use policy because it literally varies from one person to the next.

Just my 2 cents

Carry on

Frankly, I believe the "debate" on this is little more than a smoke screen. I don't believe the issue is really about gender identity. As you point out, only a small fraction of the population is affected by this, and these bills don't address any real concerns.

I think the issue is about power. A segment of our society that has long held power feels it is losing its grip on it. They are afraid, and are taking this opportunity to exercise what power they still have while they can. They are proposing, and in some cases, passing these bills because they can, not because they need to.

I suspect Frank the Tank is right in seeing this as sort of a desperate last stand against the inexorable tide of public opinion. That might sound silly in light of the recent presidential election results. But I think history will view this election as an anomaly. When we are afraid, and as a nation I believe we are, we tend to over-correct. I expect the pendulum to swing back - perhaps not as far as some would like - bringing us closer to the center, and more in line with public opinion. That's a painful process, but probably a useful one.
02-09-2017 05:01 PM
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TerryD Offline
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Post: #38
RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
(02-09-2017 05:01 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(02-09-2017 04:08 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  Look this isn't the politics board but it's unfair to dismiss the legitimate debate in this country about when it is apropriate to differentiate between the social construct of gender identity and the physical construct of biological sex

Bathrooms are the perfect example of this.

Currently they are separated by biological sex (XX vs XY) which is only problematic for a small element of the population and frankly my position is if you're a different genotype like XYY, then it's your choice (no system meant for the masses can ever cater to everyone, only as many as possible)


However basing them on the artificial social construct of gender identity which is an intangible idea is at best highly problematic because it's totally subjective to the preferences of the individual and impossible to scale for mass use policy because it literally varies from one person to the next.

Just my 2 cents

Carry on

Frankly, I believe the "debate" on this is little more than a smoke screen. I don't believe the issue is really about gender identity. As you point out, only a small fraction of the population is affected by this, and these bills don't address any real concerns.

I think the issue is about power. A segment of our society that has long held power feels it is losing its grip on it. They are afraid, and are taking this opportunity to exercise what power they still have while they can. They are proposing, and in some cases, passing these bills because they can, not because they need to.

I suspect Frank the Tank is right in seeing this as sort of a desperate last stand against the inexorable tide of public opinion. That might sound silly in light of the recent presidential election results. But I think history will view this election as an anomaly. When we are afraid, and as a nation I believe we are, we tend to over-correct. I expect the pendulum to swing back - perhaps not as far as some would like - bringing us closer to the center, and more in line with public opinion. That's a painful process, but probably a useful one.

Ken, I believe that you are correct on all of your post.

Also, the North Carolina bill was not merely a "bathroom bill", but a law intended to strip the cities from protecting LGBT rights.

As an aside, I see a Judge today put a hold on one of the outgoing governor/legislature's "last gasp" laws intended to limit the incoming NC governor's power.

These guys are on the wrong side of history and have made their own bed as far as sanctions go.

When corporations recoil from what a GOP legislature does, then man, that is a good sign that it just went Beyond The Pale.
02-09-2017 05:27 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #39
RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
(02-09-2017 05:01 PM)ken d Wrote:  
(02-09-2017 04:08 PM)10thMountain Wrote:  Look this isn't the politics board but it's unfair to dismiss the legitimate debate in this country about when it is apropriate to differentiate between the social construct of gender identity and the physical construct of biological sex

Bathrooms are the perfect example of this.

Currently they are separated by biological sex (XX vs XY) which is only problematic for a small element of the population and frankly my position is if you're a different genotype like XYY, then it's your choice (no system meant for the masses can ever cater to everyone, only as many as possible)


However basing them on the artificial social construct of gender identity which is an intangible idea is at best highly problematic because it's totally subjective to the preferences of the individual and impossible to scale for mass use policy because it literally varies from one person to the next.

Just my 2 cents

Carry on

Frankly, I believe the "debate" on this is little more than a smoke screen. I don't believe the issue is really about gender identity. As you point out, only a small fraction of the population is affected by this, and these bills don't address any real concerns.

I think the issue is about power. A segment of our society that has long held power feels it is losing its grip on it. They are afraid, and are taking this opportunity to exercise what power they still have while they can. They are proposing, and in some cases, passing these bills because they can, not because they need to.

I suspect Frank the Tank is right in seeing this as sort of a desperate last stand against the inexorable tide of public opinion. That might sound silly in light of the recent presidential election results. But I think history will view this election as an anomaly. When we are afraid, and as a nation I believe we are, we tend to over-correct. I expect the pendulum to swing back - perhaps not as far as some would like - bringing us closer to the center, and more in line with public opinion. That's a painful process, but probably a useful one.

Agreed.

My other issue is that any reasonable person knows the intent of these laws. It has nothing to do with bathroom safety, biological differences or "religious freedom". If these same people really cared about "religious freedom", we'd be seeing bakers refuse to bake wedding cakes for heterosexual divorced people that are having second marriages (considering that Jesus himself gave his famous Sermon on the Mount where he DIRECTLY and UNEQUIVOCALLY stated that divorce is a mortal sin and remarriage is literally the same as adultery). So, is it about religious freedom... or is it just that they think gay people are icky? I'm sorry - feeling icky doesn't give anyone the right to discriminate.

Regardless, if these states want to exercise "states' rights", then that's their prerogative. However, those states then can't turn around and whine when businesses, millennials and educated people take their dollars and economic growth prospects elsewhere. Those states can't complain about coastal elites and supposed legislation from the bench regarding LGBT rights on the one hand and then complain when the free market loudly proclaims that they don't want anything to do with LGBT discrimination on the other hand. TerryD is right - when big business (normally in the pocket of the GOP) is pulling out of these states, that shows you where this country has gone because those certainly aren't big government liberals.

My apologies for veering into politics (albeit the OP subject is inherently intertwined with politics, so it's difficult to separate the two).
02-09-2017 05:55 PM
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Tom in Lazybrook Offline
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RE: How will "Bathroom Bills" impact college sports?
One thing that the 'just play sports' folks would do well to keep in mind. Not make this political, but just so that people can understand that there's a dynamic here.

Non-sports fans tend to be more liberal than sports fans yet liberals end up subsidizing sports to a greater extent than conservatives. College students at NCAA institutions, who tend to be much more liberal, sponsor NCAA athletics to a significant degree with student activity fees. Remember that for liberal alumni, they give, but there is competition for their donor dollars. I'll give you just one example. The Harry Ransom Center at the University of Texas, which is a book collection, actually managed to outraise the Athletic Department in at least one year. What happens if those alumni get p*ssed off and simply stop donating to UT period?

Pro sports tends to be concentrated in more liberal municipalities, and those are the people who largely finance professional sports through stadium bonds, and local cable bills.

Sports in general, and especially the alpha male sports, tends to be watched and supported by a more conservative population, but tends to be financed by a more liberal population that might not support that sport. People are starting to say "f this, I want cable without paying 400 a year for NHL/NFL/NCAA programming I don't want'. And 'F this, I don't need my taxdollars to go to buy a billionaire a stadium or an arena'. The pros have done a terrible job of engaging liberals. The NFL has been horrible. An accounting is coming.

One reason why the NCAA is moving on this is perhaps that they want to align their expensive athletic programs with the communities that largely subsidize them.
(This post was last modified: 02-09-2017 06:52 PM by Tom in Lazybrook.)
02-09-2017 06:52 PM
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