(02-02-2017 10:18 PM)shizzle787 Wrote:  If the NCAA is smart, they kick Baylor out completely. They are embarassing everyone involved and have been the center of two brutal scandals involving cover ups of murder and mass rape.

No school will ever get the Death Penalty again. Ever.

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(02-03-2017 03:04 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  To flip the switch on this thread (for those who think Baylor should not receive the Death Penalty:) Is there any offense that you would deem worthy of the Death Penalty?

I ask that question because in the past several years we have seen rape, child rape, academic scandal, cash payouts, bought and paid for strippers, abortions, drugs, etc. go buy with a slap on the wrist. At what point would you consider the line to be crossed?

None related to athletic competition. And that is what the NCAA is for.

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(02-03-2017 03:08 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(02-03-2017 03:04 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  To flip the switch on this thread (for those who think Baylor should not receive the Death Penalty:) Is there any offense that you would deem worthy of the Death Penalty?

I ask that question because in the past several years we have seen rape, child rape, academic scandal, cash payouts, bought and paid for strippers, abortions, drugs, etc. go buy with a slap on the wrist. At what point would you consider the line to be crossed?

People can't help themselves but to misunderstand the "violation space" in which the NCAA does/should operate, simply because they find a particular crime to be appalling.



So to answer your question, it would have to be something like a long history of outright bribing recruits with cash and other financial benefits, helping players cheat classes to stay eligible, using ineligible players during games, and performing other methods of cheating during games (pay people on the other team to play badly, or give up info of plays, etc.)

Like, going on for a decade, with intimate knowledge and personal involvement by the head coaches, athletic directors, and university presidents during that timeframe.



THAT is the space where the NCAA lives. In such a case, maybe you could consider the death penalty.

The equivalent would be brokers engaging in behavior such as drug use, sexual battery and worse and wanting the Securities and Exchange Commission to do something about it.

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(02-03-2017 02:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-03-2017 02:43 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  Anyone remember where Baylor was as an athletic department about 7 or 8 years ago? Sp toxicly bad they were almost left for dead? Is it possible these scandals push them back there?

I know we live in largely a secular world these days, but Baylor is a Southern Baptist seminary. That's a reasonably conservative seminary. To me what gets lost in the horrific details of all of this is just how totally hypocritical the whole thing is. It is the essence of defying the mission of that school at the academic level. It is wholly foreign and hostile to it's spiritual endeavors. I think this observation is fair because it has been used against other such schools in the past (B.Y.U., Notre Dame, even Duke). In the other cases I'm not sure it was fair to assail the schools for the crimes, or alleged crimes of individuals. But here, and according to the details of the released information, there was knowledge all the way up the ladder and an intentional skirting of the individuals responsible for conduct on the campus. It simply adds yet another level to the disgust surrounding the whole scandal IMO.

Wait? What! You're claiming Southern Baptists are hypocritical? Shocking

(02-04-2017 03:49 PM)canewton Wrote:  It wasn't one person dude. That's the point. A ton of people got fired over this.

So you propose to irrevocably harm an institution with 17k students, employing thousands of people, with a $1+ billion endowment, and perhaps hundreds of thousands of living alumni ... because "a ton" (more like, a handful) of people committed crimes while being employed by Baylor??

Absurd.

(02-04-2017 11:05 PM)Insane_Baboon Wrote:  Not to mention the precedent that's set if the NCAA does nothing about this.

There is no precedent to set, for the NCAA, on this matter.

No more than there is for Scuba Diving International.

(02-03-2017 08:07 PM)JHS55 Wrote:  Gosh Iam sure glad we fired briles when we did. Houston is lucky he and his lying son are long gone

(02-05-2017 11:42 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(02-03-2017 02:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-03-2017 02:43 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  Anyone remember where Baylor was as an athletic department about 7 or 8 years ago? Sp toxicly bad they were almost left for dead? Is it possible these scandals push them back there?

I know we live in largely a secular world these days, but Baylor is a Southern Baptist seminary. That's a reasonably conservative seminary. To me what gets lost in the horrific details of all of this is just how totally hypocritical the whole thing is. It is the essence of defying the mission of that school at the academic level. It is wholly foreign and hostile to it's spiritual endeavors. I think this observation is fair because it has been used against other such schools in the past (B.Y.U., Notre Dame, even Duke). In the other cases I'm not sure it was fair to assail the schools for the crimes, or alleged crimes of individuals. But here, and according to the details of the released information, there was knowledge all the way up the ladder and an intentional skirting of the individuals responsible for conduct on the campus. It simply adds yet another level to the disgust surrounding the whole scandal IMO.

Wait? What! You're claiming Southern Baptists are hypocritical? Shocking

I'm just glad JR said it and not me. If I had said that I would have been accused of bringing religion into the discussion and scolded by mods and likely gotten some negative rep.

(02-05-2017 12:23 PM)p23570 Wrote:  

(02-03-2017 08:07 PM)JHS55 Wrote:  Gosh Iam sure glad we fired briles when we did. Houston is lucky he and his lying son are long gone

(02-05-2017 11:42 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(02-03-2017 02:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-03-2017 02:43 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  Anyone remember where Baylor was as an athletic department about 7 or 8 years ago? Sp toxicly bad they were almost left for dead? Is it possible these scandals push them back there?

I know we live in largely a secular world these days, but Baylor is a Southern Baptist seminary. That's a reasonably conservative seminary. To me what gets lost in the horrific details of all of this is just how totally hypocritical the whole thing is. It is the essence of defying the mission of that school at the academic level. It is wholly foreign and hostile to it's spiritual endeavors. I think this observation is fair because it has been used against other such schools in the past (B.Y.U., Notre Dame, even Duke). In the other cases I'm not sure it was fair to assail the schools for the crimes, or alleged crimes of individuals. But here, and according to the details of the released information, there was knowledge all the way up the ladder and an intentional skirting of the individuals responsible for conduct on the campus. It simply adds yet another level to the disgust surrounding the whole scandal IMO.

Wait? What! You're claiming Southern Baptists are hypocritical? Shocking

I'm just glad JR said it and not me. If I had said that I would have been accused of bringing religion into the discussion and scolded by mods and likely gotten some negative rep.

I didn't bring in Jesus, Buddha or anyone else's version of a deity. But, Baylor's very identity is wrapped up in it. The hypocrisy cannot be dismissed in light of their identity. Discussing Baylor's situation is not off limits and that includes the scope of their school's mission which includes a theological school. Discussing deities and what they would or wouldn't do is another matter.

Baiting a mod here is an offense. But I knew when I brought their hypocrisy into this that this issue would be raised and probably by you, so I don't find offense in your post.

(02-05-2017 12:16 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(02-04-2017 03:49 PM)canewton Wrote:  It wasn't one person dude. That's the point. A ton of people got fired over this.

So you propose to irrevocably harm an institution with 17k students, employing thousands of people, with a $1+ billion endowment, and perhaps hundreds of thousands of living alumni ... because "a ton" (more like, a handful) of people committed crimes while being employed by Baylor??

Absurd.

(02-04-2017 11:05 PM)Insane_Baboon Wrote:  Not to mention the precedent that's set if the NCAA does nothing about this.

There is no precedent to set, for the NCAA, on this matter.

No more than there is for Scuba Diving International.

Yeah and the NCAA shouldn't have punished SMU either. Only a few people were benefiting from it.

(02-05-2017 01:42 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-05-2017 12:23 PM)p23570 Wrote:  

(02-03-2017 08:07 PM)JHS55 Wrote:  Gosh Iam sure glad we fired briles when we did. Houston is lucky he and his lying son are long gone

(02-05-2017 11:42 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(02-03-2017 02:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-03-2017 02:43 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  Anyone remember where Baylor was as an athletic department about 7 or 8 years ago? Sp toxicly bad they were almost left for dead? Is it possible these scandals push them back there?

I know we live in largely a secular world these days, but Baylor is a Southern Baptist seminary. That's a reasonably conservative seminary. To me what gets lost in the horrific details of all of this is just how totally hypocritical the whole thing is. It is the essence of defying the mission of that school at the academic level. It is wholly foreign and hostile to it's spiritual endeavors. I think this observation is fair because it has been used against other such schools in the past (B.Y.U., Notre Dame, even Duke). In the other cases I'm not sure it was fair to assail the schools for the crimes, or alleged crimes of individuals. But here, and according to the details of the released information, there was knowledge all the way up the ladder and an intentional skirting of the individuals responsible for conduct on the campus. It simply adds yet another level to the disgust surrounding the whole scandal IMO.

Wait? What! You're claiming Southern Baptists are hypocritical? Shocking

I'm just glad JR said it and not me. If I had said that I would have been accused of bringing religion into the discussion and scolded by mods and likely gotten some negative rep.

I didn't bring in Jesus, Buddha or anyone else's version of a deity. But, Baylor's very identity is wrapped up in it. The hypocrisy cannot be dismissed in light of their identity. Discussing Baylor's situation is not off limits and that includes the scope of their school's mission which includes a theological school. Discussing deities and what they would or wouldn't do is another matter.

Baiting a mod here is an offense. But I knew when I brought their hypocrisy into this that this issue would be raised and probably by you, so I don't find offense in your post.

I'm just giving you a dose of what you give me. I certainly was not "baiting" you. It's obvious this board is very uptight if what I wrote is considered an "offense".

I actually enjoy the topic of hypocrisy in religious schools like Baylor and Notre Dame but I don't think this board is capable of handling that discussion without somebody getting thier feelers hurt and throwing a fit.

(02-05-2017 02:15 PM)canewton Wrote:  Yeah and the NCAA shouldn't have punished SMU either.

So we agree that the NCAA shouldn't punish Baylor?

(02-05-2017 02:35 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(02-05-2017 02:15 PM)canewton Wrote:  Yeah and the NCAA shouldn't have punished SMU either.

So we agree that the NCAA shouldn't punish Baylor?

No, not at all. But the NCAA doesn't really care what you and I think.

Just like they got Al Capone for tax evasion instead of the heinous crimes he commited, looks like they'll get Baylor for providing free legal service extra benefits instead of the heinous crimes their players committed.

http://www.espn.com/college-football/sto...ylor-bears

Bowlsby told ESPN on Friday that the NCAA could be looking into some of the issues raised in the text messages as they pertain to extra benefits.

"I doubt very much that most students have anybody available to steer them to legal counsel," he said.

Bowlsby noted that he would need to know the specific circumstances; referring a student-athlete to a lawyer might not qualify as an extra benefit, but transporting him to an attorney's office and negotiating a payment might.

"It's the kind of thing that will raise the antenna of NCAA investigators, that those are exactly the kind of things that are athletic-related that the NCAA's investigation will certainly look into."

**************

For those who need reminding:

-- On September 20, 2013, after a player was arrested for assault and threatening to kill a non-athlete, a football operations staff official tried to talk the victim out of pressing criminal charges. Meanwhile, Coach Briles texted Athletics Director Ian McCaw: “Just talked to [the player] – he said Waco PD was there – said they were going to keep it quiet – Wasn’t a set up deal... I'll get shill (Shillinglaw) to ck on Sibley (local attorney Jonathan Sibley).” Athletics Director Ian McCaw replied: “That would be great if they kept it quiet!"

**************

Jonathan Sibley is the son of David Sibley, one of the state politicians who helped Baylor get in the Big 12 in 1994.

Jonathan went to Baylor and Baylor law school. He grew up going to Baylor games. He lives in Waco. I assume he donates to the athletic department. if he does, he's a booster.

Boosters can't provide free legal services to athletes. Yet Sibley was Sam Ukarapist's trial counsel. And apparently on call with Briles for any criminal activity.

(02-05-2017 02:45 PM)canewton Wrote:  No, not at all.

But that doesn't make sense. The NCAA has zero authority in this area.

We're not talking about players cheating on tests, or ineligible players being used in games.

(02-05-2017 02:26 PM)p23570 Wrote:  

(02-05-2017 01:42 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-05-2017 12:23 PM)p23570 Wrote:  

(02-03-2017 08:07 PM)JHS55 Wrote:  Gosh Iam sure glad we fired briles when we did. Houston is lucky he and his lying son are long gone

(02-05-2017 11:42 AM)Sactowndog Wrote:  

(02-03-2017 02:54 PM)JRsec Wrote:  I know we live in largely a secular world these days, but Baylor is a Southern Baptist seminary. That's a reasonably conservative seminary. To me what gets lost in the horrific details of all of this is just how totally hypocritical the whole thing is. It is the essence of defying the mission of that school at the academic level. It is wholly foreign and hostile to it's spiritual endeavors. I think this observation is fair because it has been used against other such schools in the past (B.Y.U., Notre Dame, even Duke). In the other cases I'm not sure it was fair to assail the schools for the crimes, or alleged crimes of individuals. But here, and according to the details of the released information, there was knowledge all the way up the ladder and an intentional skirting of the individuals responsible for conduct on the campus. It simply adds yet another level to the disgust surrounding the whole scandal IMO.

Wait? What! You're claiming Southern Baptists are hypocritical? Shocking

I'm just glad JR said it and not me. If I had said that I would have been accused of bringing religion into the discussion and scolded by mods and likely gotten some negative rep.

I didn't bring in Jesus, Buddha or anyone else's version of a deity. But, Baylor's very identity is wrapped up in it. The hypocrisy cannot be dismissed in light of their identity. Discussing Baylor's situation is not off limits and that includes the scope of their school's mission which includes a theological school. Discussing deities and what they would or wouldn't do is another matter.

Baiting a mod here is an offense. But I knew when I brought their hypocrisy into this that this issue would be raised and probably by you, so I don't find offense in your post.

I'm just giving you a dose of what you give me. I certainly was not "baiting" you. It's obvious this board is very uptight if what I wrote is considered an "offense".

I actually enjoy the topic of hypocrisy in religious schools like Baylor and Notre Dame but I don't think this board is capable of handling that discussion without somebody getting thier feelers hurt and throwing a fit.

If it had seemed to be an offense I would have said more. The main board here is more tightly regulated than conference sites because it is so diverse. And yes, there are the thin skinned here like there are on all boards.

We are in agreement on the issue of hypocrisy with regard to a school's self proclaimed mission being fair game. Especially in this case. And for the record I do think the Baylor case could be a catalyst for change in the Big 12. It will be interesting to watch it play out.

(02-05-2017 03:44 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  

(02-05-2017 02:45 PM)canewton Wrote:  No, not at all.

But that doesn't make sense. The NCAA has zero authority in this area.

We're not talking about players cheating on tests, or ineligible players being used in games.

Nah, just some general cover-up of sexual and assault crimes to help the football team remain competitive.

(02-05-2017 03:44 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  We're not talking about ineligible players being used in games.

We're not?

A player that should be suspended under the school's conduct policy, or worse (in jail), gets to play in a football game.

How's that not using an "ineligible" player?

For that matter, how is basically "pimping" school girls to get hs players to sign not a recruiting violation? Is that something all incoming freshman get, or just athletes?

Hypocrisy indeed.

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(02-05-2017 03:04 PM)CougarRed Wrote:  Just like they got Al Capone for tax evasion instead of the heinous crimes he commited, looks like they'll get Baylor for providing free legal service extra benefits instead of the heinous crimes their players committed.

http://www.espn.com/college-football/sto...ylor-bears

Bowlsby told ESPN on Friday that the NCAA could be looking into some of the issues raised in the text messages as they pertain to extra benefits.

"I doubt very much that most students have anybody available to steer them to legal counsel," he said.

Bowlsby noted that he would need to know the specific circumstances; referring a student-athlete to a lawyer might not qualify as an extra benefit, but transporting him to an attorney's office and negotiating a payment might.

"It's the kind of thing that will raise the antenna of NCAA investigators, that those are exactly the kind of things that are athletic-related that the NCAA's investigation will certainly look into."

**************

For those who need reminding:

-- On September 20, 2013, after a player was arrested for assault and threatening to kill a non-athlete, a football operations staff official tried to talk the victim out of pressing criminal charges. Meanwhile, Coach Briles texted Athletics Director Ian McCaw: “Just talked to [the player] – he said Waco PD was there – said they were going to keep it quiet – Wasn’t a set up deal... I'll get shill (Shillinglaw) to ck on Sibley (local attorney Jonathan Sibley).” Athletics Director Ian McCaw replied: “That would be great if they kept it quiet!"

**************

Jonathan Sibley is the son of David Sibley, one of the state politicians who helped Baylor get in the Big 12 in 1994.

Jonathan went to Baylor and Baylor law school. He grew up going to Baylor games. He lives in Waco. I assume he donates to the athletic department. if he does, he's a booster.

Boosters can't provide free legal services to athletes. Yet Sibley was Sam Ukarapist's trial counsel. And apparently on call with Briles for any criminal activity.

They always steer players to legal help. EVERY school does that. They should do that (at least for the initial stages).

This has the potential to get really interesting from the Big 12 standpoint. Starting to see some opinions from the conference come out.
http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/college-...al-fallout

(02-05-2017 03:56 PM)canewton Wrote:  Nah, just some general cover-up of sexual and assault crimes to help the football team remain competitive.

Those are crimes against the law. Charge him. Prove the case in court. Put him in jail.

Why isn't that good enough for you????

Why do you desire to make people who had nothing do with it suffer????

(02-05-2017 08:21 PM)CougarRed Wrote:  A player that should be suspended under the school's conduct policy, or worse (in jail), gets to play in a football game.

How's that not using an "ineligible" player?

Because the player was eligible at the time of the game.

You know full well there is no such thing as "retroactive ineligibility". And you know full well that you can't prove that the player would have been suspended if the evidence had been heard by a university review panel, prior to the game.

So you have no case.

(02-06-2017 07:05 AM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  For that matter, how is basically "pimping" school girls to get hs players to sign not a recruiting violation? Is that something all incoming freshman get, or just athletes?

There is no NCAA rule against a female student at Baylor having sex with a recruit.

Such a thing might not be legal. And it may not be moral.


But certainly, the NCAA has no place to judge it and enforce a penalty because of it.