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Poll: How far does Gonzaga go?
This poll is closed.
National champs 0% 0 0%
National Title Game 1.82% 1 1.82%
Final Four 14.55% 8 14.55%
Elite 8 41.82% 23 41.82%
Sweet 16 32.73% 18 32.73%
Round of 32 7.27% 4 7.27%
Round of 64 1.82% 1 1.82%
Opening Round 0% 0 0%
Miss the Dance 0% 0 0%
Total 55 vote(s) 100%
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How far does Gonzaga go?
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Bill Marsh Offline
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Post: #41
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
(02-10-2017 08:39 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  They may be a small school but they don't get a break anymore. It's like how a young prodigy is lauded and praised for his/her talents at a young age and is great relative to his/her peers. At a certain point, you have to perform to the lofty expectations you've created. Imagine if LeBron James never won a title or even advanced to the NBA Finals. Heck, imagine if he was just good but not an all-time great.

So yes, I'll be hard on them until they prove something. Until they do, they're just a cute little underdog that's good enough to make a name for itself but not to be taken serious. The Tournament is a crapshoot but they choke far more often than they bring in results. Welcome to the real world, welcome to the big leagues of college sports.

Who are the players he's lost with:

Robert Sacre
Austin Daye
Adam Morrison
JP Bautista
David Stockton
Eric Ravio
Dan Dicau
Rony Turiaf
Sabonis Jr.

And many more. Some were highly touted, some were star college players that went on to have NBA careers.

He's had the talent and had dynamic teams, yet blown it every time except in 2009 and 2015. 18 straight NCAA Tournaments multiple top 4 seeds, they're undefeated and top ranked...that's no minor program, no matter how weak the WCC has been. They need to make a really deep run. No more BS about the Dance being a crapshoot, no BS about them being a small program, if they want respect, they have to earn it.

You've proven my point. The only guy on that list who was more than a 3* recruit is Austin Daye, who only stayed 2 years at Gonzaga. Few took that team to the Sweet 16 with Daye as a sophomore. And it's not like they had any other major talent on that team.

You left off the highest rated recruit they ever had, Kyle Wiltjer. Like Dickau (Washington), Wiltjer was a reclamation project after he failed at Kentucky. That's what Few does. He finds guys who don't make it elsewhere or are overlooked and turns them into really good players. Can't coach? And with Wiltjer, Few went to back-to-back Sweet 16's and an Elite 8. When he has good talent, he achieves at the level of the talent he has or more.

The only guy on your list who had a successful NBA career was Turiaf. He's an example of Few finding talent outside the country, players whose prospects in major college basketball are uncertain. But again, Few coaches them up and achieves success.

Sabonis was only a 3-star. Heck, Adam Morrison was only a 2-star recruit coming out of high school. Few clearly overachieved with these kids. And it's not like he has a lot of these 3-stars on his teams.

Your condescending and disparaging remarks about Few are immature. They simply show how out of touch with reality you are. No one needs to make excuses for Few or give him a pass. He does great things with the talent he has, which is nowhere near the level you claim. The program is what it is, a great mid major.
02-10-2017 10:10 AM
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Bill Marsh Offline
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Post: #42
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
(02-10-2017 08:55 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  
(02-10-2017 08:37 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  
(02-10-2017 07:12 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  His teams have simultaneously overachieved and underachieved with the exception of his first two and those players were molded/recruited by Dan Fitzgerald and Dan Monson.

How does that work? Monson's 1999 Elite 8 team was loaded with juniors and seniors, only 2 sophomores and no freshmen. The 3 seniors graduated immediately and the 5 juniors played one year for Few before they too graduated.

The team that Few took to the Sweet 16 in his second year as HC was almost entirely his own players.

As for the team in his first season, Few had something to do with recruiting and developing the 7 guys on that team who he did inherit since he had been an assistant at Gonzaga for 10 years. Monson acknowledged the importance of Few's role by promoting him to Associate Head Coach that year.

Sometimes it's a great assistant who makes the HeadCoach's success, not the other way around. Where did Monson ever achieve comparable success without Few?

All three teams had Casey Calvary. He was a major x-factor for those initial Gonzaga teams and was a Fitzgerald recruit IIRC. I know Few had a major role as an assistant under Fitzgerald and Monson but he has proven to be a regular season shark and postseason flop with his own players in full.

Monson also left for an okay program in a conference where you can't have an off night, unlike at Gonzaga where you can play poorly and win half the time. I give Few credit for being consistent but it shows that it's a regular season type deal. It's not like he is always losing with out manned teams. Numerous runs to the Sweet 16 and Elite 8 or potentially farther have been cut short by chokes.

So what if those teams had Casey Calvary? Your claim was that Few won in his first 2 years with Fitzgerald's and Monson's players. You got it wrong. That was true only in his first year. In 2001, Calvary was one player. That team was rebuilt with Few's players, not with Fitzgerald's and Momson's.

A coach is responsible for what happens on his watch. Every new coach inherits players, but they don't necessarily succeed right away. Gee whiz, give Few his due. He won with the players he inherited and he's won without them.

Your claim of chokes are complete nonsense. I don't know what kind of talent you think he's had, but it's certainly not at the P5/Big East level. Of course he's been outmanned. That's what happens with mid majors when they get to the tournament.

Have they lost an occasional team they should have won? Of course. So do Duke, UConn, Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina, etc. he's done far more with the talent he has frankly than most of those programs have with what they've had. Kentucky, for example, brings in multiple McD's All Americans every year and have only one championship to show for it while suffering numerous upsets.
02-10-2017 10:28 AM
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Bill Marsh Offline
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Post: #43
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
(02-10-2017 06:37 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  Marteli also does it at a harder place to win. There are numerous high schools with better facilities than St. Joe's.

Martelli does what at a harder place to win? It's not like he's dominating his league or something. He's he's been to the tournament 7 times in 22 years with 2 Sweet 16's and one Elite 8. Hey, I like the guy, enjoyed his run in 2004, and was disappointed when St Joe's lost a heartbreaker.

But to say he's a better coach than Jay Wright? Come on. Jay goes to the tournament almost every year, frequently achieves at a high level once he gets there, and got to a couple of tournaments with Hofstra before coming to Villanova. So he proved he could win under the same conditions as Martelli.
(This post was last modified: 02-10-2017 10:40 AM by Bill Marsh.)
02-10-2017 10:38 AM
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Post: #44
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
(02-10-2017 10:28 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  So what if those teams had Casey Calvary? Your claim was that Few won in his first 2 years with Fitzgerald's and Monson's players. You got it wrong. That was true only in his first year. In 2001, Calvary was one player. That team was rebuilt with Few's players, not with Fitzgerald's and Momson's.

A coach is responsible for what happens on his watch. Every new coach inherits players, but they don't necessarily succeed right away. Gee whiz, give Few his due. He won with the players he inherited and he's won without them.

Your claim of chokes are complete nonsense. I don't know what kind of talent you think he's had, but it's certainly not at the P5/Big East level. Of course he's been outmanned. That's what happens with mid majors when they get to the tournament.

Have they lost an occasional team they should have won? Of course. So do Duke, UConn, Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina, etc. he's done far more with the talent he has frankly than most of those programs have with what they've had. Kentucky, for example, brings in multiple McD's All Americans every year and have only one championship to show for it while suffering numerous upsets.

In other words, those early runs were fueled by a player he didn't have to coach up or recruit. Yes, Calvary was that important and he already had Elite 8 experience by the time Few inherited him. He hasn't had a player with that much heart since.

Stop with the cop outs, you don't get to have your cake and eat it too. They don't get to be some minor program that does more with less and is therefore exempt from being considered a choker, at least not anymore. And whatever their size is, it doesn't change the fact that they routinely choke ('02, 2005, '06, '16 ). That excuse about the the WCC being weak and them being a little school is played out. They publicly whined for years about being considered small time. You can't have it both ways, so welcome to the Big Leagues. Produce or be pushed aside as insignificant. No one wants to hear it anymore, they need to turn heads for the right reason, especially in a year like this.
02-10-2017 03:40 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #45
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
(02-10-2017 10:38 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  
(02-10-2017 06:37 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  Marteli also does it at a harder place to win. There are numerous high schools with better facilities than St. Joe's.

Martelli does what at a harder place to win? It's not like he's dominating his league or something. He's he's been to the tournament 7 times in 22 years with 2 Sweet 16's and one Elite 8. Hey, I like the guy, enjoyed his run in 2004, and was disappointed when St Joe's lost a heartbreaker.

But to say he's a better coach than Jay Wright? Come on. Jay goes to the tournament almost every year, frequently achieves at a high level once he gets there, and got to a couple of tournaments with Hofstra before coming to Villanova. So he proved he could win under the same conditions as Martelli.

I never said he said was a better coach than Jay, just that he has a knife to work with and others have guns or bazookas. I didn't even mention Jay Wright.
02-10-2017 03:45 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #46
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
(02-10-2017 06:20 AM)Bill Marsh Wrote:  Whew! Harsh critics in Philly. Before last year, all that Jay did was to take his team to the tournament 10 times in 11 years where he lost to the eventual national champs in 6 of those 10 tournaments. What did Martelli ever do that remotely approaches that? Oh, yeah, he wis eliminated in the Elite 8 when he had the #1 team in the country.

What did Jay have to show for those 10 trips to the tournament? 4 Sweet 16's, 2 Elite 8's, and a Final 4. And they should have gone to the Final 4 in their Elite 8 run in 2005 when they were eliminated in a 1-point loss to North Carolina on a terrible call by the ref at the end of the game.

Apparently Jay got no love even for the seasons when his team's overachieved as he reinvented them afte injuries. Even without last year's NC, most programs would love to have the results that JAY Wright brought to Villanova.

Yeah, ridiculous, right? I'd like to think that if Jay never won, and eventually went elsewhere, he'd be treated by the local media and Philly fans like Andy Reid was. Nevermind what Reid was able to accomplish, he's judged by what he didn't do, or failed to win.

Jay's stuff before his title would get him hired about anywhere. But, while you can recount stats like losing to "the eventual national champs" 6 of 10 times, you present the stats that way, and you'd be counted by only four trips out of those ten amounting to something beyond the first weekend, the last time being 2008-9, and three of those times being a Big East champion. It's a matter of debate...what does it mean to "under-perform?" People don't bother with his three NIT appearances, or how he only failed to get to the post-season once in fifteen years?

It's probably rooted in class and racial sentiments, I suspect. People give Martelli credit...St. Joe's is "scrappy." But, Martelli is about as inconsistent and frustrating a guy as any coach, and a major program would have cut him loose eons ago. And Temple...well, they recruited project kids, so, they were doing some kind of good over there. Penn's Penn, the real Ivy. Villanova...? Spoiled brats on the Main Line. They should be so much better because they act like they are. Makes no sense.
(This post was last modified: 02-11-2017 06:29 AM by The Cutter of Bish.)
02-10-2017 05:00 PM
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Post: #47
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
(02-05-2017 02:23 AM)_C2_ Wrote:  Gonzaga's unbeaten season will come to an end at St. Mary's in a week.

Looks like they enter the WCC Tournament unbeaten.
02-11-2017 11:47 PM
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Post: #48
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
(02-10-2017 03:40 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  In other words, those early runs were fueled by a player he didn't have to coach up or recruit. Yes, Calvary was that important and he already had Elite 8 experience by the time Few inherited him. He hasn't had a player with that much heart since.

Stop with the cop outs, you don't get to have your cake and eat it too. They don't get to be some minor program that does more with less and is therefore exempt from being considered a choker, at least not anymore. And whatever their size is, it doesn't change the fact that they routinely choke ('02, 2005, '06, '16 ). That excuse about the the WCC being weak and them being a little school is played out. They publicly whined for years about being considered small time. You can't have it both ways, so welcome to the Big Leagues. Produce or be pushed aside as insignificant. No one wants to hear it anymore, they need to turn heads for the right reason, especially in a year like this.

What a weird claim. Cavalry went from 9.4 ppg as a sophomore to All-WCC and WCC POY as a SR, and Few didn't do anything to coach him up? That progression was all just inevitable?

Gonzaga has won basically exactly as many games as you would expect based on their seed. You are cherry picking. If 2002 was a choke, then surely 2011 was a great coaching job by Few - and more recent!
02-12-2017 09:26 AM
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Post: #49
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
I'm afraid that's not true. They've lost as the better seed five times, not including the Adam Morrison crying loss to UCLA when they were clearly were the better team nor last year. Other than the 8/9 matchup, they've only won three games as a lower seeded team since the Calvary years, including two last year. 10-6 as a top 4 seed, including 3 failures to make the Sweet 16

Few was an assistant to Monson, so yes he had something to do with Calvary's development but it is a reasonable hypothesis to speculate he would have progressed with Few or another coach.

I'm not saying Few is a bad coach. He's good at finding players and fitting them into his system, then excelling. But his Tournament record, basically .500 minus the Calvary years, more or less proves he squeezes more orange juice out of the orange than is even there. When they get to the Tourament, they can compete with anyone but rarely are dominant over anyone except low seeded first round fodder. And even that isn't full proof, they came within a hair or losing to Southern as a 1-seed.

He deserves praise for what he built but criticism regardless of what level his program started at. Just do it...make the Final Four and I'll gladly pipe down and even do a significant or avatar bet.
02-12-2017 12:01 PM
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Post: #50
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
(02-12-2017 12:01 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  I'm afraid that's not true. They've lost as the better seed five times, not including the Adam Morrison crying loss to UCLA when they were clearly were the better team nor last year. Other than the 8/9 matchup, they've only won three games as a lower seeded team since the Calvary years, including two last year. 10-6 as a top 4 seed, including 3 failures to make the Sweet 16

Few was an assistant to Monson, so yes he had something to do with Calvary's development but it is a reasonable hypothesis to speculate he would have progressed with Few or another coach.

I'm not saying Few is a bad coach. He's good at finding players and fitting them into his system, then excelling. But his Tournament record, basically .500 minus the Calvary years, more or less proves he squeezes more orange juice out of the orange than is even there. When they get to the Tourament, they can compete with anyone but rarely are dominant over anyone except low seeded first round fodder. And even that isn't full proof, they came within a hair or losing to Southern as a 1-seed.

He deserves praise for what he built but criticism regardless of what level his program started at. Just do it...make the Final Four and I'll gladly pipe down and even do a significant or avatar bet.

I'm afraid that it is exactly true. Few has won 21 tournament games at Gonzaga. A team with the seeds Gonzaga has received over the last 17 seasons would be expected to win 21.19 games. So he's underachieved by a whopping 0.19 games.

But you're cherry picking so I know that won't matter.
02-12-2017 12:18 PM
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Post: #51
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
Gonzaga has made good runs. They are a great program who's tournament performance has been essentially as expected with some "underachieving" seasons, some "overachieving". I put those in quotes because the reality is with a one game and out tournament crazy stuff happens and you don't have to play badly to lose. That loss as a 1 seed to Wichita State (who made the final four BTW and went undefeated the next season) I thought Gonzaga played well, but Wichita was a really good team who was scorching hot from outside that game. That happens in a one game and out tournament.

This Gonzaga team has been the best team in the country by most objective measures. Saint Marys is no slouch, Gonzaga swept them... they have wins over Arizona, Florida and Iowa State to name a few. Their sagarin / kenpom numbers (adjusting for comp) are through the roof. There are more talented teams (though not many) like Duke, UK, UNC, UCLA and arizona, but nobody is playing better. I expect a good run.
02-12-2017 02:03 PM
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Post: #52
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
@Go College Sports

Going by the chalk, i.e. based on the idea the higher seeded team is projected to win each game, Gonzaga should at least have a record of 28-17 based on their seedings and how the bracket broke each time under Few. I already pointed out that he's only 10-6 as a top four seed, so yes, he could do way better. That idea of patting them on the back because they started out as a lower echelon program is a total copout and excuse now days. No one wants to hear it anymore except a few apologists.
(This post was last modified: 02-13-2017 08:03 PM by _C2_.)
02-12-2017 08:12 PM
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Post: #53
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
Oh. Well, going by that logic Coach K should have won about 15 games than he has, so Few is in fine company.
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2017 08:56 PM by Go College Sports.)
02-12-2017 08:56 PM
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Bill Marsh Offline
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Post: #54
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
(02-12-2017 08:56 PM)Go College Sports Wrote:  Oh. Well, going by that logic Coach K should have won about 15 games than he has, so Few is in fine company.

Yes, and how about Kansas and Syracuse, both of whom are perennial disappointments. Then there's Kentucky with so many McD's All Americans on their team that they've always got a bunch on the bench. Based on talent alone, they should win the tournament every year. But they've only got i title in the last 18 years.

Meanwhile Few has only had two recruits that were rated higher than 3 stars in his entire 18 years at Gonzaga. One of them was Kentucky reject Kyle Wiltjer, who helped the Zags to the Elite 8 last year while the Kentucky team that dumped him was sitting home with all their McD's AA's after being eliminated in the Sweet 16.
02-12-2017 09:15 PM
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Post: #55
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
But Coach K:

A. Has been around way longer than Few, two full decades as a matter of fact.

B. Is a 6-seed or higher pretty much every year, meaning plenty of chances for early losses to skew his numbers (when you're a 1-seed basically every year, you have no chance to beat a better seeded team and at least four to lose to a worse team).

C. But most importantly, he has the hardware. He's won national titles and even suffered a few disappointing losses in the title game, let alone that he made the Final Four even once. Few should be commended but he needs to produce. The Tournament is a crapshoot but he's also been at the wheel of some awful collapses.

@ Bill Marsh, ditto. All those programs you mentioned certainly should have more Final Fours and titles but they've at least gotten to the grand stage. Few has been to the Elite 8 once in 17 years. That's borderline unacceptable.

Like I said, make the Final Four or even consistently make the Elite 8 and I'll shut the bleep up.
(This post was last modified: 02-13-2017 08:05 PM by _C2_.)
02-12-2017 09:52 PM
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Bill Marsh Offline
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Post: #56
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
(02-12-2017 09:52 PM)_C2_ Wrote:  But Coach K:

A. Has been around way longer than Few, two full decades as a matter of fact.

B. Is a 6-seed or higher pretty much every year, meaning plenty of chances for early losses to skew his numbers (when you're a 1-seed basically every year, you have no chance to beat a better seeded team and at least four to lose to a worse team).

C. But most importantly, he has the hardware. He's won national titles and even suffered a few disappointing losses in the title game, let alone that's he made the Final Four even once. Few should be commended but he needs to produce. The Tournament is a crapshoot but he's also been at the wheel of some awful collapses.

@ Bill Marsh, ditto. All those programs you mentioned certainly should have more Final Fours and titles but they've at least gotten to the grand stage. Few has been to the Elite 8 once in 17 years. That's borderline unacceptable.

Like I said, make the Final Four or even consistently make the Elite 8 and I'll shut the bleep up.

Did Few rape your sister?
02-12-2017 10:28 PM
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Post: #57
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
You act like I said the guy is a bum. He is a competent college coach that has done a remarkable job of elevating Gonzaga from a no-name into a legit national power, a miracle of sorts. That doesn't make him immune to criticism and he deserves some.
02-12-2017 11:13 PM
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Post: #58
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
I think it cuts both ways with Few. His name isn't household. Not even among those with some working knowledge of college basketball. I think that's because even though Gonzaga might be more recognizable, they haven't gone as far as some think, or ought.

I remember Few's postseason numbers getting bounced out there before, and that he isn't under-performing as others elsewhere. Yet, how long did it take Gonzaga to get onto a five-line or better, and how little slack Gonzaga had to even muck up a more respectable seeding?

When Gonzaga is fantastic, their seeding shows it. They do well enough. When they are great or really good, the seeding takes a hit. We then look back at the seeding and dismiss the rest of the season. Often times, though...Gonzaga just got hosed because the WCC sucked that bad and the great wins weren't lying on top of each other in a pile.

But, I think it's time to cut the crap with them and apologizing for what they are. They are a top program. They can compete nationally. They are very distinguished. You know, two decades of sustained success will do that. It does. So, enough with what Few doesn't get with recruiting...nobody is surprised by Gonzaga. So, if that's the case...nearly twenty years later...why is an Elite 8 run all they have to show for it under him?

I'm just saying...Larranaga, Smart, Marshall, Stephens (twice)...they got to the Final Four from unsuspecting sources. Nobody confuses them with Coach K, Boeheim, Izzo, Williams, Calipari, Pitino, or Self. So, does it seem like there's a hold-up with Few?
(This post was last modified: 02-13-2017 08:57 AM by The Cutter of Bish.)
02-12-2017 11:41 PM
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Post: #59
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
I think everything you guy's are saying about Few is spot on and Gonzaga for the most part has been a perennial disappointment.

All that said, it only takes one. If they ran the table and won a title this year it would all be water under the bridge.

If that did happen they would be writing history. When was the last time a non P6 won a title? UCONN doesn't count, they were one year removed from the BIG East. It had to have been UNLV, that's a long streak to break.

There is a lot working against Gonzaga when you're a small private school in Spokane WA in the small West coast conference.

As disappointing as the Zags have been, let's take a second to appreciate what they have meant to that conference and for that matter what they did for Cinderellas everywhere. They have shown that you can go from one time Cinderella to perennial contender. That's impressive no matter what you feel about the program or its coach.
02-13-2017 12:22 AM
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Post: #60
RE: How far does Gonzaga go?
I'm fine with that last paragraph but I don't wanna hear it in a month if they get bounced in the first weekend or Sweet 16. Despite their recruiting level, despite how weak the WCC is, despite the coin flip and crapshoot nature of the Tournament, anything less than a Final Four is a disappointment. Maybe if they lose in a thriller or controversial call in the Elite 8 will it be okay but the refrain is getting old.
02-13-2017 02:05 AM
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