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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #13041
RE: Trump Administration
(07-24-2020 09:12 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 09:06 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 09:03 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 08:57 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 06:26 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  Nitpick : I wouldnt say an 'obligation'...... An obligation is something one has to do without question.

And I cannot tell you if you mean a legal obligation to 'surge', or a legal obligation as to damages.

The answer is 'no' to either sense.

The issue is whether or not to enforce one or more particular Federal laws (in this case specific assaultive laws on federal property and personnel) --- and a government can absolutely choose to engage in prosecutorial discretion at any of the investigate, arrest, or charging stages.

The corollary question that has to be asked is such failure good policy? I would say not. In this case the issue is mass civil unrest -- government, at all levels, should provide protection to its residents in an unbiased and non-discriminative manner to such types of violence. In our system, there is a legal basis for the federal government to intervene based on the section of the Constitution dealing with 'insurrection' noted above; but that basis is and should be a backstop. As #s noted with the Wuhan virus, the primary response to local issues and violence are the local and state governments.

In the case of Portland, the local sovereigns are *not* providing equal and non-discriminatory protection to residents. The rub is that the one literally receiving zero protection is the Federal presence -- ostensibly because of Orange Man Bad Syndrome.

The Cruz bill correctly notes that every level of government has a very legal obligation to protect its residents --- it is very obvious that for 4 full days Minneapolis and Minnesota failed in that obligation. In Portland, the people who are residents of the areas directly around the courthouse are being 'failed', as has been the Police union whose building was torched. In Seattle, you had a four week lapse of that in a 16 square block area (the autonomy formerly known as CHAZ).

The Cruz bill places the governments who fail to meet the Constitutional obligation of protection firmly in the crosshairs financially for their refusal to execute and provide that Constitutional duty. And the 3x damages 'drafts' the legion of plaintiff attorneys and absolutely incentivizes such private actions.

And no, it's not improper, nor is it ‘fascism’, to protect federal property from riots and revolutionaries.

And in a lighter hearted observation on lad's emotional invocation of 'sovereignty' (and the left's invocation over the last couple of days of 'states' rights' (again, thank you lad, you seem to be a great primary conduit of talking points into this site with a T-20 hours of the mainstream). It seems like just yesterday the left was blasting Confederate “traitors” (actually less than three weeks for lad using that exact language, mind you), but now they (the generic left) and he (lad in particular) are talking “states’ rights” with the enthusiasm of any generic Dixie US Senator from the 1920's.

Or libertarian from January 2009 to January 2017.

Or any southerner from 1830-1860.

Or any 'Anti Federalist' from 1789 - 1855.

Or any 10th amendment follower from 1789 - present.

what is the old saying? Something like those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it? I think the current "Progressives" illustrate that nicely as they try to recreate the soviet Union.

I am personally happy to see lad the arch-champion of state's rights to the level that he is -- to the level of suggesting that the Supremacy Clause is non-existent in effect.

While he is correct that states have sovereignty, he studiously overlooks his push to remove the police powers of them one at a time (by the way lad, 'police power' is a term of art) by devolving everything to a central decision behemoth. But he neglects that there are actually Constitutional obligations on that behemoth that he now seemingly wants to limit in favor of state sovereignty.

So, interestingly the things that arent explicitly subject to the Supremacy Clause he wants big centralized control, and the things that are explicitly subject to the Supremacy clause he becomes an ardent supporter of the inviolatability of states' rights on those. Kind of fun to watch.
07-24-2020 09:54 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #13042
RE: Trump Administration
This is *not* the Babylon Bee.

Quote:The Portland Bureau of Transportation demanded the federal government on Thursday to remove a reinforced fence in front of the Mark O. Hatfield Federal Courthouse, because the fence was placed in a bike lane without permits.

Funny, wasnt lad in here just yesterday saying that the City of Portland wasnt supporting the 'protestors' there?
07-24-2020 10:03 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #13043
RE: Trump Administration
(07-24-2020 10:03 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  This is *not* the Babylon Bee.

Quote:The Portland Bureau of Transportation demanded the federal government on Thursday to remove a reinforced fence in front of the Mark O. Hatfield Federal Courthouse, because the fence was placed in a bike lane without permits.

Funny, wasnt lad in here just yesterday saying that the City of Portland wasnt supporting the 'protestors' there?

I did?
07-24-2020 10:21 AM
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Post: #13044
RE: Trump Administration
(07-24-2020 09:54 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 09:12 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 09:06 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 09:03 AM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 08:57 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Or libertarian from January 2009 to January 2017.

Or any southerner from 1830-1860.

Or any 'Anti Federalist' from 1789 - 1855.

Or any 10th amendment follower from 1789 - present.

what is the old saying? Something like those who don't learn from history are condemned to repeat it? I think the current "Progressives" illustrate that nicely as they try to recreate the soviet Union.

I am personally happy to see lad the arch-champion of state's rights to the level that he is -- to the level of suggesting that the Supremacy Clause is non-existent in effect.

While he is correct that states have sovereignty, he studiously overlooks his push to remove the police powers of them one at a time (by the way lad, 'police power' is a term of art) by devolving everything to a central decision behemoth. But he neglects that there are actually Constitutional obligations on that behemoth that he now seemingly wants to limit in favor of state sovereignty.

So, interestingly the things that arent explicitly subject to the Supremacy Clause he wants big centralized control, and the things that are explicitly subject to the Supremacy clause he becomes an ardent supporter of the inviolatability of states' rights on those. Kind of fun to watch.

So now we have a new poster - State's Rights Lad(SRL).

I wonder what SRL would have thought in 1860 about the right of a sovereign state to secede from a Union of sovereign states. Clearly treason, right? Why that would be like the USA withdrawing from NATO! Unthinkable! Or like the UK withdrawing from the EEU. When you join a group like that, it s like joining the Crips - blood in, blood out. Hey maybe Lincoln was the one who gave the Crips and Bloods that idea.
(This post was last modified: 07-24-2020 10:33 AM by OptimisticOwl.)
07-24-2020 10:30 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #13045
RE: Trump Administration
My bad -- the entirety of your position on Portland on this was:

"I think the Portland police have just absolutely failed, in a similar manner, at defusing the situation."

Its all the Portland police's failure to defuse. Or did you just forget to mention the city government as a whole in the entire discussion, all the while knowing that the entire city structure of Portland has supported the protestors and the violence therein?

If so, that statement calling out the 'failure of the Portland police' kind of falls short, especially when talking about the various matches and gasoline in the situation.

Kind of like a sailor inspecting the side of a ship in the North Atlantic in the early hours of May 31, 1911 and furiously denoting the damage the ice did to the paint job on the hull.
(This post was last modified: 07-24-2020 10:35 AM by tanqtonic.)
07-24-2020 10:32 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #13046
RE: Trump Administration
(07-24-2020 06:02 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(07-23-2020 11:25 PM)westsidewolf1989 Wrote:  When are the troops going to come to the Chinese Consulate in Houston to deport all the employees there, who recently burned documents on the premises? Really need to take a close look at the prioritization of federal troop deployments, as the CCP’s actions through the Houston consulate are of much more dire consequences than anarchists who are rightful citizens of this country.

They're not troops.

I do agree that the primary focus needs to be China. Like it or not, we are in Cold War II, and the enemy this time is China. It's time to quit screaming, "Russia, Russia, Russia," and focus on the real enemy, which is China.

As far as Portland, Seattle, et al, my thought is pull out and let them kill each other and loot and plunder, until they either 1) get tired of dying, or 2) have totally destroyed their cities. Serves those mayors and governors right for mollycoddling these ruffians.

Seems the CCP said that they are not vacating the consulate.

I wonder if the consul general will sit there in his office after his visa is pulled, which, any country can do at anytime to any diplomat on its soil. Do you think the Chinese intelligence services want to see Chai in a jail cell and subject to interrogation somewhere?

The interesting thing, is that this is now another 'into uncharted territory'. A sovereign nation has *never* refused the formal closing of an embassy, a consulate, or a diplomatic mission.

And as another interesting note, the CCP responded with the closing of the US consulate in Chengdu. Funny action to take in light of their refusal to close the Houston consulate.

I think Hunter Biden's 1.5 billion dollar Mandarin lessons might actually come in handy.
07-24-2020 11:08 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #13047
RE: Trump Administration
(07-24-2020 10:32 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  My bad -- the entirety of your position on Portland on this was:

"I think the Portland police have just absolutely failed, in a similar manner, at defusing the situation."

Its all the Portland police's failure to defuse. Or did you just forget to mention the city government as a whole in the entire discussion, all the while knowing that the entire city structure of Portland has supported the protestors and the violence therein?

If so, that statement calling out the 'failure of the Portland police' kind of falls short, especially when talking about the various matches and gasoline in the situation.

Kind of like a sailor inspecting the side of a ship in the North Atlantic in the early hours of May 31, 1911 and furiously denoting the damage the ice did to the paint job on the hull.

Not a great analogy given that a city’s police department is the PRIMARY organization tasked with enforcing laws and controlling crowds...

I frankly doubt you, nor I, have a sufficient understanding of how the forty structure of Portland operates and what influence it has on this outcome. But I have no problem with expanding that comment to include the city government if it makes you happy. Portland (as a whole) absolutely failed at defusing the situation from the start.
07-24-2020 11:15 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #13048
RE: Trump Administration
(07-24-2020 11:15 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 10:32 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  My bad -- the entirety of your position on Portland on this was:

"I think the Portland police have just absolutely failed, in a similar manner, at defusing the situation."

Its all the Portland police's failure to defuse. Or did you just forget to mention the city government as a whole in the entire discussion, all the while knowing that the entire city structure of Portland has supported the protestors and the violence therein?

If so, that statement calling out the 'failure of the Portland police' kind of falls short, especially when talking about the various matches and gasoline in the situation.

Kind of like a sailor inspecting the side of a ship in the North Atlantic in the early hours of May 31, 1911 and furiously denoting the damage the ice did to the paint job on the hull.

Not a great analogy given that a city’s police department is the PRIMARY organization tasked with enforcing laws and controlling crowds...

I frankly doubt you, nor I, have a sufficient understanding of how the forty structure of Portland operates and what influence it has on this outcome. But I have no problem with expanding that comment to include the city government if it makes you happy. Portland (as a whole) absolutely failed at defusing the situation from the start.

I would still say that the 'failed at defusing' falls extremely short of the very obvious 'supporting' that is occurring.

Maybe had the administration actually thought of actually enforcing the laws as they apply to the Federal courthouse and its environs, the police wouldnt be the will o wisp that it is. Why do *you* think the Portland police are nonexistent? Maybe all of them were called out to stop a frat party somewhere else? Sorry lad, that is an executive decision, and one made well above the office of police superintendent. Seems there only a limited number of chairs left in that chain. Why the recalcitrance at actually verbalizing what is happening here?

While kind of like 'the US failed at helping the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan', or 'my lawnmower's failure to defuse the lawn growth' when I dont use the lawnmower at all, but I am nonetheless glad to see that lukewarm movement to the obvious point.
(This post was last modified: 07-24-2020 11:48 AM by tanqtonic.)
07-24-2020 11:19 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #13049
RE: Trump Administration
(07-24-2020 11:19 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 11:15 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 10:32 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  My bad -- the entirety of your position on Portland on this was:

"I think the Portland police have just absolutely failed, in a similar manner, at defusing the situation."

Its all the Portland police's failure to defuse. Or did you just forget to mention the city government as a whole in the entire discussion, all the while knowing that the entire city structure of Portland has supported the protestors and the violence therein?

If so, that statement calling out the 'failure of the Portland police' kind of falls short, especially when talking about the various matches and gasoline in the situation.

Kind of like a sailor inspecting the side of a ship in the North Atlantic in the early hours of May 31, 1911 and furiously denoting the damage the ice did to the paint job on the hull.

Not a great analogy given that a city’s police department is the PRIMARY organization tasked with enforcing laws and controlling crowds...

I frankly doubt you, nor I, have a sufficient understanding of how the forty structure of Portland operates and what influence it has on this outcome. But I have no problem with expanding that comment to include the city government if it makes you happy. Portland (as a whole) absolutely failed at defusing the situation from the start.

I would still say that the 'failed at defusing' falls extremely short of the 'supporting' that is pretty obvious.

Maybe had the administration actually thought of actually enforcing the laws as they apply to the Federal courthouse and its environs, the police wouldnt be the will o wisp that it is. Why do *you* think the Portland police are nonexistent? Maybe all of them were called out to stop a frat party somewhere else? Sorry lad, that is an executive decision, and one made well above the office of police superintendent. Seems there only a limited number of chairs left in that chain. Why the recalcitrance at actually verbalizing what is happening here?

Kind of like 'The US failed at helping the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan', but I am nonetheless glad to see that lukewarm movement to the obvious point.

My understanding is that, during the initial protests, the Portland police were active and tried to disperse the crowd using the same methods we have seen across the country.

See:

Quote: Clashes between police and protesters on the 34th night of demonstrations stretched for a nearly mile through North Portland late Tuesday, leading to police using tear gas and leaving some drivers caught in the crosshairs.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.oregonl...Type%3Damp

So are you just talking about the Portland Police response since the Feds showed up?
07-24-2020 11:32 AM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #13050
RE: Trump Administration
(07-24-2020 11:32 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 11:19 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 11:15 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 10:32 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  My bad -- the entirety of your position on Portland on this was:

"I think the Portland police have just absolutely failed, in a similar manner, at defusing the situation."

Its all the Portland police's failure to defuse. Or did you just forget to mention the city government as a whole in the entire discussion, all the while knowing that the entire city structure of Portland has supported the protestors and the violence therein?

If so, that statement calling out the 'failure of the Portland police' kind of falls short, especially when talking about the various matches and gasoline in the situation.

Kind of like a sailor inspecting the side of a ship in the North Atlantic in the early hours of May 31, 1911 and furiously denoting the damage the ice did to the paint job on the hull.

Not a great analogy given that a city’s police department is the PRIMARY organization tasked with enforcing laws and controlling crowds...

I frankly doubt you, nor I, have a sufficient understanding of how the forty structure of Portland operates and what influence it has on this outcome. But I have no problem with expanding that comment to include the city government if it makes you happy. Portland (as a whole) absolutely failed at defusing the situation from the start.

I would still say that the 'failed at defusing' falls extremely short of the 'supporting' that is pretty obvious.

Maybe had the administration actually thought of actually enforcing the laws as they apply to the Federal courthouse and its environs, the police wouldnt be the will o wisp that it is. Why do *you* think the Portland police are nonexistent? Maybe all of them were called out to stop a frat party somewhere else? Sorry lad, that is an executive decision, and one made well above the office of police superintendent. Seems there only a limited number of chairs left in that chain. Why the recalcitrance at actually verbalizing what is happening here?

Kind of like 'The US failed at helping the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan', but I am nonetheless glad to see that lukewarm movement to the obvious point.

My understanding is that, during the initial protests, the Portland police were active and tried to disperse the crowd using the same methods we have seen across the country.

See:

Quote: Clashes between police and protesters on the 34th night of demonstrations stretched for a nearly mile through North Portland late Tuesday, leading to police using tear gas and leaving some drivers caught in the crosshairs.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.oregonl...Type%3Damp

So are you just talking about the Portland Police response since the Feds showed up?

I am talking about the timeframe when the Federal courthouse became the locus of ire, as opposed to the 'systemic injustice blahbitty blah blah blah' stuff.

Once the target became the Courthouse, or any Federal building, the police disappeared. Kind of like when the shitbirds were targeting the immigration policies.
07-24-2020 11:52 AM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #13051
RE: Trump Administration
(07-24-2020 11:52 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 11:32 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 11:19 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 11:15 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 10:32 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  My bad -- the entirety of your position on Portland on this was:

"I think the Portland police have just absolutely failed, in a similar manner, at defusing the situation."

Its all the Portland police's failure to defuse. Or did you just forget to mention the city government as a whole in the entire discussion, all the while knowing that the entire city structure of Portland has supported the protestors and the violence therein?

If so, that statement calling out the 'failure of the Portland police' kind of falls short, especially when talking about the various matches and gasoline in the situation.

Kind of like a sailor inspecting the side of a ship in the North Atlantic in the early hours of May 31, 1911 and furiously denoting the damage the ice did to the paint job on the hull.

Not a great analogy given that a city’s police department is the PRIMARY organization tasked with enforcing laws and controlling crowds...

I frankly doubt you, nor I, have a sufficient understanding of how the forty structure of Portland operates and what influence it has on this outcome. But I have no problem with expanding that comment to include the city government if it makes you happy. Portland (as a whole) absolutely failed at defusing the situation from the start.

I would still say that the 'failed at defusing' falls extremely short of the 'supporting' that is pretty obvious.

Maybe had the administration actually thought of actually enforcing the laws as they apply to the Federal courthouse and its environs, the police wouldnt be the will o wisp that it is. Why do *you* think the Portland police are nonexistent? Maybe all of them were called out to stop a frat party somewhere else? Sorry lad, that is an executive decision, and one made well above the office of police superintendent. Seems there only a limited number of chairs left in that chain. Why the recalcitrance at actually verbalizing what is happening here?

Kind of like 'The US failed at helping the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan', but I am nonetheless glad to see that lukewarm movement to the obvious point.

My understanding is that, during the initial protests, the Portland police were active and tried to disperse the crowd using the same methods we have seen across the country.

See:

Quote: Clashes between police and protesters on the 34th night of demonstrations stretched for a nearly mile through North Portland late Tuesday, leading to police using tear gas and leaving some drivers caught in the crosshairs.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.oregonl...Type%3Damp

So are you just talking about the Portland Police response since the Feds showed up?

I am talking about the timeframe when the Federal courthouse became the locus of ire, as opposed to the 'systemic injustice blahbitty blah blah blah' stuff.

Once the target became the Courthouse, or any Federal building, the police disappeared. Kind of like when the shitbirds were targeting the immigration policies.

Not true. Portland police were active well up until the Feds showed up on July 1 and Portland Police collaborated with Feds during riot control measures in early July (and possible later - I don’t feel like reading through the entire article).

C’mon, just do a bit of cursory background research before stating things with such certainty that can easily be checked.

https://www.opb.org/news/article/police-...-officers/
07-24-2020 12:06 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #13052
RE: Trump Administration
(07-24-2020 12:06 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Portland police were active well up until the Feds showed up on July 1 and Portland Police collaborated with Feds during riot control measures in early Jul

I am not sure what you are trying to prove, but IMO Portland police should have been active from the git-go until now and collaborating with Fedswhenever possible right up to this very minute. that is their job and their responsibility.
07-24-2020 12:11 PM
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Post: #13053
RE: Trump Administration
Police follow instructions. When they don't, they get judged as individuals. See the George Floyd cases.
Those instructions they follow come from above... They come from (depending on the specific jurisdiction and form of government) the police chief, the mayor, the city council etc. They set not only the tone, but the direction and focus of the police. If they want traffic crimes or drug crimes to be de-emphasised, that is what the police will put into action. The police chief could tell police to generally 'look the other way' or simply 'warn and walk' for certain offenses... or perhaps simply not have any/many police assigned to traffic duty.

This is why I take such issue with the left on this situation.

It seems to me that you have to discuss/reach some consensus... even an agreement to disagree within some parameters... on the severity of the local actions either by police, protesters or leadership BEFORE you can judge the reactions by the feds.


Let's ignore the specifics of the situation and try and agree on a few things:

- I think we all agree that there are protestors who are breaking laws, causing damage, injuring people and risking lives.
- I think we agree that the local police forces act under the specific direction of their leadership and that they owe a duty to their employees (policemen) to provide as safe a work environment as possible while also protecting their citizens and their property from theft, injury and damage.
- I think we all agree that Federal rights/responsibilities to protect their employees and property are not subject to local leadership. As an obvious example, a local decision to less stringently enforce traffic laws in a city does not create an obligation for a military base in that town to also less stringently enforce traffic laws.
- I think we all agree that Federal responsibilities to act to protect citizens when a state does not is also undeniable. Not saying this meets the criteria, just that it exists. A state cannot fail to 'equally protect' its citizens.

Note how little discussion (despite dozens of requests) has taken place about the actions or failure of action by the local police and government, and how much has focused on what appears to be, looking at the reaction by the feds in isolation. There has been recognition of the failure of local leadership, but there seems to be a chasm between that preceding and precipitating event and the action/reaction of the feds. Yes, they made mistakes, but that doesn't justify 'taking people randomly off the streets'.
07-24-2020 12:14 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #13054
RE: Trump Administration
Kind of reminds of certain cities in mexico which don't want the Federales to come in because they will get into gun battles with the cartels.
07-24-2020 12:46 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #13055
RE: Trump Administration
(07-24-2020 12:11 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 12:06 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Portland police were active well up until the Feds showed up on July 1 and Portland Police collaborated with Feds during riot control measures in early Jul

I am not sure what you are trying to prove, but IMO Portland police should have been active from the git-go until now and collaborating with Fedswhenever possible right up to this very minute. that is their job and their responsibility.

Tanq was claiming "Once the target became the Courthouse, or any Federal building, the police disappeared."

From everything I have read, that statement isn't true. I'm trying to show Tanq that his assumptions about the facts of the situation aren't true, based on all available evidence.
07-24-2020 12:53 PM
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Post: #13056
RE: Trump Administration
(07-24-2020 12:14 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  Police follow instructions. When they don't, they get judged as individuals. See the George Floyd cases.
Those instructions they follow come from above... They come from (depending on the specific jurisdiction and form of government) the police chief, the mayor, the city council etc. They set not only the tone, but the direction and focus of the police. If they want traffic crimes or drug crimes to be de-emphasised, that is what the police will put into action. The police chief could tell police to generally 'look the other way' or simply 'warn and walk' for certain offenses... or perhaps simply not have any/many police assigned to traffic duty.

This is why I take such issue with the left on this situation.

It seems to me that you have to discuss/reach some consensus... even an agreement to disagree within some parameters... on the severity of the local actions either by police, protesters or leadership BEFORE you can judge the reactions by the feds.


Let's ignore the specifics of the situation and try and agree on a few things:

- I think we all agree that there are protestors who are breaking laws, causing damage, injuring people and risking lives.
- I think we agree that the local police forces act under the specific direction of their leadership and that they owe a duty to their employees (policemen) to provide as safe a work environment as possible while also protecting their citizens and their property from theft, injury and damage.
- I think we all agree that Federal rights/responsibilities to protect their employees and property are not subject to local leadership. As an obvious example, a local decision to less stringently enforce traffic laws in a city does not create an obligation for a military base in that town to also less stringently enforce traffic laws.
- I think we all agree that Federal responsibilities to act to protect citizens when a state does not is also undeniable. Not saying this meets the criteria, just that it exists. A state cannot fail to 'equally protect' its citizens.

Note how little discussion (despite dozens of requests) has taken place about the actions or failure of action by the local police and government, and how much has focused on what appears to be, looking at the reaction by the feds in isolation. There has been recognition of the failure of local leadership, but there seems to be a chasm between that preceding and precipitating event and the action/reaction of the feds. Yes, they made mistakes, but that doesn't justify 'taking people randomly off the streets'.

I understand the point above, but I think the fundamental issue derailing this conversation is a lack of understanding of the details preceding the Feds' decisions to pick up people in unmarked vans (see your third paragraph). If anything, how are we supposed to have a deep conversation about the actions of local officials when we're all relatively uninformed about it, because Portland wasn't national news until a week ago?

Tanq seems to believe that the Portland police basically abdicated from the scene and did not support the feds. But now that I've read more about it, I've come to realization that this isn't true, at all. So it would actually greatly benefit the discussion for us to be on the same page about what each local actor was doing before the Feds started picking people up in unmarked vans.

My understanding, from reading a few timeline articles, is that protests were quite numerous, and turned violent numerous times before feds arrived. Both the local police, and eventually, the feds, responded with the types of crowd control measures (i.e. tear gas) we've been seeing across the country, and they didn't seem to be successful.

But early on, there was a butting of heads between local officials and the feds - see this July 8 quote from the Portland Deputy Chief:

Quote:“I don’t have authority over federal officers,” Davis said. “They’re governed by their own policies and procedures. They’re acting under federal law, federal authority. … It does complicate things for us.”

And then this commentary follows later:

Quote:The increasingly aggressive actions by federal officers have also energized the protest movement in Portland, a city known for its cultural defiance to authority. Crowds grew significantly July 17 and 18.

Note that federal officials had been in Portland since at least July 1.


Finally, the beginning of the article seems to sum up the issue - local officials basically created a song and dance with protesters, and failed at quelling the unrest. Then feds stepped in and made a bigger mess.

Quote:Protesters had settled into a nightly routine at the Multnomah County Justice Center. The fencing around the building had just come down. The iconic elk statue still stood watch above Lownsdale and Chapman Squares, offering a comfortable late-night perch for many protesters.

Then federal law enforcement officers began appearing at the daily protests.

At first, activists viewed the agents as a minor nuisance compared to officers from the Portland Police Bureau, who for many nights before had used impact munitions and tear gas to drive demonstrators away from the building that houses the county jail and out of downtown Portland.

https://www.opb.org/news/article/police-...-officers/
07-24-2020 01:05 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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RE: Trump Administration
(07-24-2020 12:06 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 11:52 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 11:32 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 11:19 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 11:15 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Not a great analogy given that a city’s police department is the PRIMARY organization tasked with enforcing laws and controlling crowds...

I frankly doubt you, nor I, have a sufficient understanding of how the forty structure of Portland operates and what influence it has on this outcome. But I have no problem with expanding that comment to include the city government if it makes you happy. Portland (as a whole) absolutely failed at defusing the situation from the start.

I would still say that the 'failed at defusing' falls extremely short of the 'supporting' that is pretty obvious.

Maybe had the administration actually thought of actually enforcing the laws as they apply to the Federal courthouse and its environs, the police wouldnt be the will o wisp that it is. Why do *you* think the Portland police are nonexistent? Maybe all of them were called out to stop a frat party somewhere else? Sorry lad, that is an executive decision, and one made well above the office of police superintendent. Seems there only a limited number of chairs left in that chain. Why the recalcitrance at actually verbalizing what is happening here?

Kind of like 'The US failed at helping the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan', but I am nonetheless glad to see that lukewarm movement to the obvious point.

My understanding is that, during the initial protests, the Portland police were active and tried to disperse the crowd using the same methods we have seen across the country.

See:

Quote: Clashes between police and protesters on the 34th night of demonstrations stretched for a nearly mile through North Portland late Tuesday, leading to police using tear gas and leaving some drivers caught in the crosshairs.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.oregonl...Type%3Damp

So are you just talking about the Portland Police response since the Feds showed up?

I am talking about the timeframe when the Federal courthouse became the locus of ire, as opposed to the 'systemic injustice blahbitty blah blah blah' stuff.

Once the target became the Courthouse, or any Federal building, the police disappeared. Kind of like when the shitbirds were targeting the immigration policies.

Not true. Portland police were active well up until the Feds showed up on July 1 and Portland Police collaborated with Feds during riot control measures in early July (and possible later - I don’t feel like reading through the entire article).

C’mon, just do a bit of cursory background research before stating things with such certainty that can easily be checked.

https://www.opb.org/news/article/police-...-officers/

So where do *you* think the decision not to put cops in the street came from, lad? The dogcatcher's office? The road department? The timing of the decision is rather immaterial -- you just steadfastly refuse to denote that he City of Portland, at the highest levels, is supporting the anti Federal 'protests'. As they tacitly did back when the same types of shitbirds were protesting the immigration issues.

Maybe it came from the City Library office?
07-24-2020 01:11 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #13058
RE: Trump Administration
(07-24-2020 01:11 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 12:06 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 11:52 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 11:32 AM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 11:19 AM)tanqtonic Wrote:  I would still say that the 'failed at defusing' falls extremely short of the 'supporting' that is pretty obvious.

Maybe had the administration actually thought of actually enforcing the laws as they apply to the Federal courthouse and its environs, the police wouldnt be the will o wisp that it is. Why do *you* think the Portland police are nonexistent? Maybe all of them were called out to stop a frat party somewhere else? Sorry lad, that is an executive decision, and one made well above the office of police superintendent. Seems there only a limited number of chairs left in that chain. Why the recalcitrance at actually verbalizing what is happening here?

Kind of like 'The US failed at helping the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan', but I am nonetheless glad to see that lukewarm movement to the obvious point.

My understanding is that, during the initial protests, the Portland police were active and tried to disperse the crowd using the same methods we have seen across the country.

See:

Quote: Clashes between police and protesters on the 34th night of demonstrations stretched for a nearly mile through North Portland late Tuesday, leading to police using tear gas and leaving some drivers caught in the crosshairs.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.oregonl...Type%3Damp

So are you just talking about the Portland Police response since the Feds showed up?

I am talking about the timeframe when the Federal courthouse became the locus of ire, as opposed to the 'systemic injustice blahbitty blah blah blah' stuff.

Once the target became the Courthouse, or any Federal building, the police disappeared. Kind of like when the shitbirds were targeting the immigration policies.

Not true. Portland police were active well up until the Feds showed up on July 1 and Portland Police collaborated with Feds during riot control measures in early July (and possible later - I don’t feel like reading through the entire article).

C’mon, just do a bit of cursory background research before stating things with such certainty that can easily be checked.

https://www.opb.org/news/article/police-...-officers/

So where do *you* think the decision not to put cops in the street came from, lad? The dogcatcher's office? The road department? The timing of the decision is rather immaterial -- you just steadfastly refuse to denote that he City of Portland, at the highest levels, is supporting the anti Federal 'protests'. As they tacitly did back when the same types of shitbirds were protesting the immigration issues.

Maybe it came from the City Library office?

Two things - can you link to what you're talking about?

And nothing I've said has anything to do with where any decision came from. C'mon, actually respond to what I'm saying, which is about when Portland Police were or were not trying to control the riots and assist the federal agents.

If the timing is immaterial, then stop bringing up the timing. When you stop posting false things, I'll stop telling you they are false.
07-24-2020 01:13 PM
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tanqtonic Offline
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Post: #13059
RE: Trump Administration
(07-24-2020 12:11 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 12:06 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Portland police were active well up until the Feds showed up on July 1 and Portland Police collaborated with Feds during riot control measures in early Jul

I am not sure what you are trying to prove, but IMO Portland police should have been active from the git-go until now and collaborating with Fedswhenever possible right up to this very minute. that is their job and their responsibility.

lad just wants to paint the police as failures, as opposed to the city leaders as collaborationist.
07-24-2020 01:14 PM
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RiceLad15 Offline
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Post: #13060
RE: Trump Administration
(07-24-2020 01:14 PM)tanqtonic Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 12:11 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(07-24-2020 12:06 PM)RiceLad15 Wrote:  Portland police were active well up until the Feds showed up on July 1 and Portland Police collaborated with Feds during riot control measures in early Jul

I am not sure what you are trying to prove, but IMO Portland police should have been active from the git-go until now and collaborating with Fedswhenever possible right up to this very minute. that is their job and their responsibility.

lad just wants to paint the police as failures, as opposed to the city leaders as collaborationist.

No I don't - I have zero interest in trying to protect city officials.

I specifically am trying to cut through bull****, since we can't even agree on what occurred and when.
07-24-2020 01:17 PM
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