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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #141
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(04-25-2017 01:11 AM)AZcats Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 12:17 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  http://www.courierpress.com/story/sports...100788962/


Article about smoke that Southern Indiana in Evansville could be gunning for D1.

The article's headline clearly states the opposite. They also say, "it’s not being discussed right now". USI may eventually make it to D1 but it's so far in the future that it doesn't come close to being labeled as 'gunning for'. Quit trying to force something that's not there.


You skipped the part about the students want to go D1 to join Northern Kentucky. They are getting support to make the move.
04-25-2017 01:23 AM
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AZcats Offline
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Post: #142
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(04-25-2017 01:23 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 01:11 AM)AZcats Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 12:17 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  http://www.courierpress.com/story/sports...100788962/


Article about smoke that Southern Indiana in Evansville could be gunning for D1.

The article's headline clearly states the opposite. They also say, "it’s not being discussed right now". USI may eventually make it to D1 but it's so far in the future that it doesn't come close to being labeled as 'gunning for'. Quit trying to force something that's not there.


You skipped the part about the students want to go D1 to join Northern Kentucky. They are getting support to make the move.

I skipped nothing. Have you heard of daydreaming? Among the very few students remaining at Southern Indiana who were there when Northern Kentucky was a conference mate, not many were paying that much attention. There is no 'smoke' or 'gunning for' happening as a chance for D1 is in the distant future. Facility improvements is all they are doing and the budget is severely lacking at D1 standards.

Quote:“Our main focus right now is taking the programs we have and putting them in a position to compete for NCAA championships on a more regular basis,” USI Athletic Director Jon Mark Hall said. “We don’t really talk Division I, but I do think once the new facility is finished then you can check off one thing that maybe we needed to get ourselves to a certain level.”

The local conferences are not going to add a D2 school so the only option would be the A-Sun making travel costs a major obstacle. Again, a D1 move is far from being called a 'done deal' and you're reading way too much into the article that's not there at all.
04-25-2017 03:12 AM
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bluesox Offline
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Post: #143
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
I wonder if hillsdale college could get some rich conservative donor to fund a move to d1 and they try to brand like Davidson. Maybe the summit might need some teams
04-25-2017 10:13 AM
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Fresno St. Alum Offline
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Post: #144
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(04-25-2017 10:13 AM)bluesox Wrote:  I wonder if hillsdale college could get some rich conservative donor to fund a move to d1 and they try to brand like Davidson. Maybe the summit might need some teams

If the Summit loses 1 or 2, they need to go after Bellarmine and USI asap. They're both ready to move up.

Lindenwood would need a home for football to move to the Summit from D-II but they're also ready.
04-25-2017 01:43 PM
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johnintx Offline
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Post: #145
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(04-25-2017 10:13 AM)bluesox Wrote:  I wonder if hillsdale college could get some rich conservative donor to fund a move to d1 and they try to brand like Davidson. Maybe the summit might need some teams

The Koch brothers support Wichita State. 02-13-banana

I don't see it happening, but stranger things have happened. Hillsdale has a national following of conservatives (or at least a lot of subscribers to their free newsletter), so they have a base from which to start. At the end of the day, though, I can't see one or more politically-minded donors investing in athletics in order to promote a school.

Without knowing their situation (outside of their conservative identity), it would be safe to assume that Hillsdale is happy and content in D-II.
04-25-2017 02:50 PM
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teamvsn Offline
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Post: #146
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(04-25-2017 01:43 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 10:13 AM)bluesox Wrote:  I wonder if hillsdale college could get some rich conservative donor to fund a move to d1 and they try to brand like Davidson. Maybe the summit might need some teams

If the Summit loses 1 or 2, they need to go after Bellarmine and USI asap. They're both ready to move up.

Lindenwood would need a home for football to move to the Summit from D-II but they're also ready.

Curious what your criteria is for Lindenwood being "ready". I would think they'd want to have some conference championships before they'd want to make a move up.
04-25-2017 06:01 PM
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Fresno St. Alum Offline
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Post: #147
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(04-25-2017 06:01 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 01:43 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 10:13 AM)bluesox Wrote:  I wonder if hillsdale college could get some rich conservative donor to fund a move to d1 and they try to brand like Davidson. Maybe the summit might need some teams

If the Summit loses 1 or 2, they need to go after Bellarmine and USI asap. They're both ready to move up.

Lindenwood would need a home for football to move to the Summit from D-II but they're also ready.

Curious what your criteria is for Lindenwood being "ready". I would think they'd want to have some conference championships before they'd want to make a move up.
How many conference titles did Cal Baptist have in the Big 2 which they don't have football so big 1. conf. titles don't even matter or GVSU and NW Mo. St. would have been D-I years ago. It's the schools w/ big dreams that can afford to do it, that do it. Belmont, Birmingham-So. and Lipscomb had big dreams and did the no longer legal double jump. TAMU-CC went from nothing to D-I. FGCU went from not a school to D-II to D-I before even getting their feet wet.

It's probably all a moot point for the schools w/ football that won't drop it like Omaha to move to the WAC or SL. The SL would have to start football and force their MVFC members to play SL football. Then there'd be 4 spots or so in each for members w/ football.

So let me ask you who now in the NAIA has big dreams that you see going to D-II soon?
(This post was last modified: 04-25-2017 06:16 PM by Fresno St. Alum.)
04-25-2017 06:07 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #148
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
Hate to bring hockey up again, but I think Lindenwood would make the biggest splash by upgrading their men's club hockey to DI. There is a new USHL rink going up in the suburbs and St Louis likes it's hockey as its producing a lot of DI talent now. It already has a women's DI team.
04-25-2017 06:16 PM
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Fresno St. Alum Offline
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Post: #149
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(04-25-2017 06:16 PM)NoDak Wrote:  Hate to bring hockey up again, but I think Lindenwood would make the biggest splash by upgrading their men's club hockey to DI. There is a new USHL rink going up in the suburbs and St Louis likes it's hockey as its producing a lot of DI talent now. It already has a women's DI team.

I like when you bring it up. I have tracked NCAA hockey and Lax for 2 years now in my conf. notebooks to go along w/ the football and bball I've been tracking since 1990.

I've been watching the NHL for a yr and a half now and absolutely love it!
04-25-2017 06:19 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #150
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
Nebraska Christian College ra-starting sports and hope to rejoin in the NAIA ranks.

http://www.omaha.com/news/metro/nebraska...fe2d3.html
04-25-2017 07:42 PM
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teamvsn Offline
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Post: #151
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(04-25-2017 06:07 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 06:01 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 01:43 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 10:13 AM)bluesox Wrote:  I wonder if hillsdale college could get some rich conservative donor to fund a move to d1 and they try to brand like Davidson. Maybe the summit might need some teams

If the Summit loses 1 or 2, they need to go after Bellarmine and USI asap. They're both ready to move up.

Lindenwood would need a home for football to move to the Summit from D-II but they're also ready.

Curious what your criteria is for Lindenwood being "ready". I would think they'd want to have some conference championships before they'd want to make a move up.
How many conference titles did Cal Baptist have in the Big 2 which they don't have football so big 1. conf. titles don't even matter or GVSU and NW Mo. St. would have been D-I years ago. It's the schools w/ big dreams that can afford to do it, that do it. Belmont, Birmingham-So. and Lipscomb had big dreams and did the no longer legal double jump. TAMU-CC went from nothing to D-I. FGCU went from not a school to D-II to D-I before even getting their feet wet.

It's probably all a moot point for the schools w/ football that won't drop it like Omaha to move to the WAC or SL. The SL would have to start football and force their MVFC members to play SL football. Then there'd be 4 spots or so in each for members w/ football.

So let me ask you who now in the NAIA has big dreams that you see going to D-II soon?

I don't think it needs to be in the high profile sports, they can make their name by being strong in minor sports to get their foot in the door. Cal Baptist has won 10 PacWest championships in the last 6 years they've been in the conference, covering almost all of their sports. They've proven they can win at the D2 level. If they want to give D1 a shot, more power to 'em. I guess we can say "more power" to Lindenwood too if that's what they want to do, but if they can't win in D2 why would we suggest they go?

The former NAIA schools you mention aren't really comparable. It was a different era, and they were highly successful already. These days, NAIA is roughly equal to D2; back then, they were definitely above D2 (except possibly in football). Add College of Charleston, who went directly from NAIA power to NCAA Big Dance Cinderella. Not that big a jump 20 years ago. And back then, there was no post-season ineligibility years that can cripple programs.

I think the last 8 years have shown the NAIA members that the grass is not greener in D2, and that it takes a great deal of money to maintain the same level of success. Sources of money are endowments, booster contributions, and bundling it in with tuition when you have enough students to spread it out into a minimal increase. I think most of the ones that qualify are already gone. I haven't heard of ANY D2 applications this year... there might be, but there's no scuttlebutt. I could give an unqualified "yes, could be successful" to any school over 5000 on campus undergraduates. 3000 would be a stretch. If it DOES happen, it will likely be someone like Biola (4225 enrollment) who's making the move to re-associate with with historic rivals like CBU, APU, CUI and PLNU, or like Davenport & Purdue NW (both over 10k enrollment) who get invites. Much more likely to be schools in the NAIA's sweet spot (private under 2500) or small public directional transitioning from D2 to the NAIA.
04-26-2017 10:48 PM
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Fresno St. Alum Offline
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Post: #152
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(04-26-2017 10:48 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 06:07 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 06:01 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 01:43 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 10:13 AM)bluesox Wrote:  I wonder if hillsdale college could get some rich conservative donor to fund a move to d1 and they try to brand like Davidson. Maybe the summit might need some teams

If the Summit loses 1 or 2, they need to go after Bellarmine and USI asap. They're both ready to move up.

Lindenwood would need a home for football to move to the Summit from D-II but they're also ready.

Curious what your criteria is for Lindenwood being "ready". I would think they'd want to have some conference championships before they'd want to make a move up.
How many conference titles did Cal Baptist have in the Big 2 which they don't have football so big 1. conf. titles don't even matter or GVSU and NW Mo. St. would have been D-I years ago. It's the schools w/ big dreams that can afford to do it, that do it. Belmont, Birmingham-So. and Lipscomb had big dreams and did the no longer legal double jump. TAMU-CC went from nothing to D-I. FGCU went from not a school to D-II to D-I before even getting their feet wet.

It's probably all a moot point for the schools w/ football that won't drop it like Omaha to move to the WAC or SL. The SL would have to start football and force their MVFC members to play SL football. Then there'd be 4 spots or so in each for members w/ football.

So let me ask you who now in the NAIA has big dreams that you see going to D-II soon?

I don't think it needs to be in the high profile sports, they can make their name by being strong in minor sports to get their foot in the door. Cal Baptist has won 10 PacWest championships in the last 6 years they've been in the conference, covering almost all of their sports. They've proven they can win at the D2 level. If they want to give D1 a shot, more power to 'em. I guess we can say "more power" to Lindenwood too if that's what they want to do, but if they can't win in D2 why would we suggest they go?

The former NAIA schools you mention aren't really comparable. It was a different era, and they were highly successful already. These days, NAIA is roughly equal to D2; back then, they were definitely above D2 (except possibly in football). Add College of Charleston, who went directly from NAIA power to NCAA Big Dance Cinderella. Not that big a jump 20 years ago. And back then, there was no post-season ineligibility years that can cripple programs.

I think the last 8 years have shown the NAIA members that the grass is not greener in D2, and that it takes a great deal of money to maintain the same level of success. Sources of money are endowments, booster contributions, and bundling it in with tuition when you have enough students to spread it out into a minimal increase. I think most of the ones that qualify are already gone. I haven't heard of ANY D2 applications this year... there might be, but there's no scuttlebutt. I could give an unqualified "yes, could be successful" to any school over 5000 on campus undergraduates. 3000 would be a stretch. If it DOES happen, it will likely be someone like Biola (4225 enrollment) who's making the move to re-associate with with historic rivals like CBU, APU, CUI and PLNU, or like Davenport & Purdue NW (both over 10k enrollment) who get invites. Much more likely to be schools in the NAIA's sweet spot (private under 2500) or small public directional transitioning from D2 to the NAIA.
Biola, Davenport, and Purdue NW are already moving, I'm asking about other ones that haven't already applied to D-II. C of C had to get in as an at large they weren't eligible for the TAAC tourney. They had a longer 7 yr provisional period since they were NAIA.

PWC isn't close to as good as the MIAA which may be the best D-II conf. if not the NSIC is. Really most don't care about anything other than football or bball. Some areas like out west where we are baseball is big. In the NE, Atlantic Lax is, in the North and East hockey is.

If Dominican(CA) was awesome at water polo, rowing and track, we wouldn't be clamoring for them to move up over a team w/ a decent football program or a more than decent bball program. Football, then bball drive most of the conference moves. I wonder if anyone could answer what made NJIT feel they should move up to D-I. Plus prior success in D-II doesn't equal good in D-I. Neither does not living up to potential in D-II equal failure in D-I. NDSU wasn't its dominate 80's self in 2004 when they moved. It was UND, GVSU, NW Mo. Northern Colorado won back to back titles in the late 90s and moved up to D-I and have done very little.

When would you say the NAIA stopped being the on par w/ D-II, NAIA?
(This post was last modified: 04-27-2017 01:33 AM by Fresno St. Alum.)
04-27-2017 01:17 AM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #153
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(04-27-2017 01:17 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(04-26-2017 10:48 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 06:07 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 06:01 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 01:43 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  If the Summit loses 1 or 2, they need to go after Bellarmine and USI asap. They're both ready to move up.

Lindenwood would need a home for football to move to the Summit from D-II but they're also ready.

Curious what your criteria is for Lindenwood being "ready". I would think they'd want to have some conference championships before they'd want to make a move up.
How many conference titles did Cal Baptist have in the Big 2 which they don't have football so big 1. conf. titles don't even matter or GVSU and NW Mo. St. would have been D-I years ago. It's the schools w/ big dreams that can afford to do it, that do it. Belmont, Birmingham-So. and Lipscomb had big dreams and did the no longer legal double jump. TAMU-CC went from nothing to D-I. FGCU went from not a school to D-II to D-I before even getting their feet wet.

It's probably all a moot point for the schools w/ football that won't drop it like Omaha to move to the WAC or SL. The SL would have to start football and force their MVFC members to play SL football. Then there'd be 4 spots or so in each for members w/ football.

So let me ask you who now in the NAIA has big dreams that you see going to D-II soon?

I don't think it needs to be in the high profile sports, they can make their name by being strong in minor sports to get their foot in the door. Cal Baptist has won 10 PacWest championships in the last 6 years they've been in the conference, covering almost all of their sports. They've proven they can win at the D2 level. If they want to give D1 a shot, more power to 'em. I guess we can say "more power" to Lindenwood too if that's what they want to do, but if they can't win in D2 why would we suggest they go?

The former NAIA schools you mention aren't really comparable. It was a different era, and they were highly successful already. These days, NAIA is roughly equal to D2; back then, they were definitely above D2 (except possibly in football). Add College of Charleston, who went directly from NAIA power to NCAA Big Dance Cinderella. Not that big a jump 20 years ago. And back then, there was no post-season ineligibility years that can cripple programs.

I think the last 8 years have shown the NAIA members that the grass is not greener in D2, and that it takes a great deal of money to maintain the same level of success. Sources of money are endowments, booster contributions, and bundling it in with tuition when you have enough students to spread it out into a minimal increase. I think most of the ones that qualify are already gone. I haven't heard of ANY D2 applications this year... there might be, but there's no scuttlebutt. I could give an unqualified "yes, could be successful" to any school over 5000 on campus undergraduates. 3000 would be a stretch. If it DOES happen, it will likely be someone like Biola (4225 enrollment) who's making the move to re-associate with with historic rivals like CBU, APU, CUI and PLNU, or like Davenport & Purdue NW (both over 10k enrollment) who get invites. Much more likely to be schools in the NAIA's sweet spot (private under 2500) or small public directional transitioning from D2 to the NAIA.
Biola, Davenport, and Purdue NW are already moving, I'm asking about other ones that haven't already applied to D-II. C of C had to get in as an at large they weren't eligible for the TAAC tourney. They had a longer 7 yr provisional period since they were NAIA.

PWC isn't close to as good as the MIAA which may be the best D-II conf. if not the NSIC is. Really most don't care about anything other than football or bball. Some areas like out west where we are baseball is big. In the NE, Atlantic Lax is, in the North and East hockey is.

If Dominican(CA) was awesome at water polo, rowing and track, we wouldn't be clamoring for them to move up over a team w/ a decent football program or a more than decent bball program. Football, then bball drive most of the conference moves. I wonder if anyone could answer what made NJIT feel they should move up to D-I. Plus prior success in D-II doesn't equal good in D-I. Neither does not living up to potential in D-II equal failure in D-I. NDSU wasn't its dominate 80's self in 2004 when they moved. It was UND, GVSU, NW Mo. Northern Colorado won back to back titles in the late 90s and moved up to D-I and have done very little.

When would you say the NAIA stopped being the on par w/ D-II, NAIA?


With North Alabama moving to the A-Sun, you wonder who else in the Gulf South wants to join them? Plus, does this bring to the thought for North Greenville and UNC-Pembroke move to D1? They are affiliates to Gulf South for football. This does leave openings in Gulf South to raid D3 or NAIA schools. I do think there are some NAIA schools in the southeast that could compete at the D2 level. Mid South Conference could use a trim when Keiser joins which makes it a 21 team football conference. With Stillman in the future restarts football would make it 22. Even Limestone is an Independent in football. UNA was the last D2 school that beat an FBS team. As it is, the top D2 schools that went on and being good are now in D1 like Akron, Youngstown State, North Dakota State, South Dakota State, Boise State and many more. There are D2 schools that I do think belong in D1, D3 schools belong in D2, and NAIA schools that do belong in D1 or D2 because of how they play. There are schools in D1 that should go back to NAIA, D2 etc...

When I say the schools like southern Oregon, Eastern Oregon, College of Idaho and Arizona Christian go to D2 GNAC for football purposes? You could get better scheduling and not have to play the same school twice in a year. Even if Ottawa Arizona joins NAIA? They would be better off playing in GNAC. Dixie State would be someone they could play more against every year. There is a lack of football schools west of the rocky mountains. NAIA need some of those NJCAA and California football schools to go to 4 year and join the nAIA for all sports. There seems to be a movement in Washington State at Vancouver to start sport programs there. Maybe UW @ Tacoma could get sports going as well.
04-27-2017 07:58 PM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
Alabama-Huntsville would work well in the Atlantic sun
04-27-2017 08:44 PM
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AZcats Offline
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Post: #155
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(04-27-2017 07:58 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  With North Alabama moving to the A-Sun, you wonder who else in the Gulf South wants to join them? Plus, does this bring to the thought for North Greenville and UNC-Pembroke move to D1? They are affiliates to Gulf South for football. This does leave openings in Gulf South to raid D3 or NAIA schools. I do think there are some NAIA schools in the southeast that could compete at the D2 level. Mid South Conference could use a trim when Keiser joins which makes it a 21 team football conference. With Stillman in the future restarts football would make it 22. Even Limestone is an Independent in football. UNA was the last D2 school that beat an FBS team. As it is, the top D2 schools that went on and being good are now in D1 like Akron, Youngstown State, North Dakota State, South Dakota State, Boise State and many more. There are D2 schools that I do think belong in D1, D3 schools belong in D2, and NAIA schools that do belong in D1 or D2 because of how they play. There are schools in D1 that should go back to NAIA, D2 etc...

When I say the schools like southern Oregon, Eastern Oregon, College of Idaho and Arizona Christian go to D2 GNAC for football purposes? You could get better scheduling and not have to play the same school twice in a year. Even if Ottawa Arizona joins NAIA? They would be better off playing in GNAC. Dixie State would be someone they could play more against every year. There is a lack of football schools west of the rocky mountains. NAIA need some of those NJCAA and California football schools to go to 4 year and join the nAIA for all sports. There seems to be a movement in Washington State at Vancouver to start sport programs there. Maybe UW @ Tacoma could get sports going as well.

Update your info: UNC-Pembroke is a fb independent (never been a GSC affiliate) and just dropped another sport so they do not have the funds for D1. Limestone fb was elevated to an affiliate of the South Atlantic Conference starting in 2017 and North Greenville fb GSC affiliation starts in 2018. The Georgia GSC schools don't have the funds and/or proper facilities for D1. It will be a long time before Stillman gets fb again. Dixie State has completed one season in the RMAC and becomes a full member in 2018. I've said it before; yes to SOU, EOU, C of I, and add Carroll College (MT) in the Great Northwest Athletic Conference but they can't just bring football. You have to be NCAA to be able to join the GNAC, there is no NCAA-NAIA dual membership allowed. Arizona Christian still has a long way to go, they don't have 1,000 students yet (they're close).
04-27-2017 10:31 PM
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Post: #156
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(04-27-2017 01:17 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(04-26-2017 10:48 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 06:07 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 06:01 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 01:43 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  If the Summit loses 1 or 2, they need to go after Bellarmine and USI asap. They're both ready to move up.

Lindenwood would need a home for football to move to the Summit from D-II but they're also ready.

Curious what your criteria is for Lindenwood being "ready". I would think they'd want to have some conference championships before they'd want to make a move up.
How many conference titles did Cal Baptist have in the Big 2 which they don't have football so big 1. conf. titles don't even matter or GVSU and NW Mo. St. would have been D-I years ago. It's the schools w/ big dreams that can afford to do it, that do it. Belmont, Birmingham-So. and Lipscomb had big dreams and did the no longer legal double jump. TAMU-CC went from nothing to D-I. FGCU went from not a school to D-II to D-I before even getting their feet wet.

It's probably all a moot point for the schools w/ football that won't drop it like Omaha to move to the WAC or SL. The SL would have to start football and force their MVFC members to play SL football. Then there'd be 4 spots or so in each for members w/ football.

So let me ask you who now in the NAIA has big dreams that you see going to D-II soon?

I don't think it needs to be in the high profile sports, they can make their name by being strong in minor sports to get their foot in the door. Cal Baptist has won 10 PacWest championships in the last 6 years they've been in the conference, covering almost all of their sports. They've proven they can win at the D2 level. If they want to give D1 a shot, more power to 'em. I guess we can say "more power" to Lindenwood too if that's what they want to do, but if they can't win in D2 why would we suggest they go?

The former NAIA schools you mention aren't really comparable. It was a different era, and they were highly successful already. These days, NAIA is roughly equal to D2; back then, they were definitely above D2 (except possibly in football). Add College of Charleston, who went directly from NAIA power to NCAA Big Dance Cinderella. Not that big a jump 20 years ago. And back then, there was no post-season ineligibility years that can cripple programs.

I think the last 8 years have shown the NAIA members that the grass is not greener in D2, and that it takes a great deal of money to maintain the same level of success. Sources of money are endowments, booster contributions, and bundling it in with tuition when you have enough students to spread it out into a minimal increase. I think most of the ones that qualify are already gone. I haven't heard of ANY D2 applications this year... there might be, but there's no scuttlebutt. I could give an unqualified "yes, could be successful" to any school over 5000 on campus undergraduates. 3000 would be a stretch. If it DOES happen, it will likely be someone like Biola (4225 enrollment) who's making the move to re-associate with with historic rivals like CBU, APU, CUI and PLNU, or like Davenport & Purdue NW (both over 10k enrollment) who get invites. Much more likely to be schools in the NAIA's sweet spot (private under 2500) or small public directional transitioning from D2 to the NAIA.
Biola, Davenport, and Purdue NW are already moving, I'm asking about other ones that haven't already applied to D-II. C of C had to get in as an at large they weren't eligible for the TAAC tourney. They had a longer 7 yr provisional period since they were NAIA.

PWC isn't close to as good as the MIAA which may be the best D-II conf. if not the NSIC is. Really most don't care about anything other than football or bball. Some areas like out west where we are baseball is big. In the NE, Atlantic Lax is, in the North and East hockey is.

If Dominican(CA) was awesome at water polo, rowing and track, we wouldn't be clamoring for them to move up over a team w/ a decent football program or a more than decent bball program. Football, then bball drive most of the conference moves. I wonder if anyone could answer what made NJIT feel they should move up to D-I. Plus prior success in D-II doesn't equal good in D-I. Neither does not living up to potential in D-II equal failure in D-I. NDSU wasn't its dominate 80's self in 2004 when they moved. It was UND, GVSU, NW Mo. Northern Colorado won back to back titles in the late 90s and moved up to D-I and have done very little.

When would you say the NAIA stopped being the on par w/ D-II, NAIA?

I think we've gotten to the point where we're talking past each other.

I know Biola, Davenport and PNW are going D2; I referred to them because they are examples of who can go, and possibly should. Certainly DU and PNW are big enough, and there aren't any that big that remain. I think at the time that C of C transitioned it was only a 4 year period, and the NAIA allowed them to remain members and post season eligible until the final year. In other words, they had no years of post season ineligibility. Now it's a 7 year transition and can't be NAIA members after the first, so SIX years of post season ineligibility unless they join the NCCAA as well (or possibly USCCA? I don't know).

Important to remember that PNW is only 1 year old. It's all about future potential with them. Prior to this year they were two different schools, Purdue Calumet and Purdue North Central. Neither was well funded in athletics, although P-Calumet was gaining credibility.

Your paragraph about Dominican really goes to the heart of why I asked. Who cares what "we" clamor for? Your original statement that caught my attention was that Lindenwood was "ready". The real question is what do they want for their athletic program, and what would suggest to THEM that they are "ready"? I would think some athletic success at the conference level would be a prerequisite, and Lindenwood has had none. You could even say they would want a football or men's basketball conference championship, but they certainly haven't had that. If THEY think that simply being D1 would generate a lot more athletic donations and bigger crowds, more power to them I guess, most want to see some success first.

And I never said the NAIA wasn't on par with D2; I said they no longer significantly BETTER than D2. Specifically, there are no teams remaining capable of pulling off what College of Charleston did and going to the D1 Big Dance right out of the gate. I don't have a list of NAIA to D1 transitions handy, but I would put Belmont and Lipscomb just a notch below C of C, and there's been no one like that since. Houston Baptist transitioned, but they clearly have a lot of work to do before they could be considered successful.
04-30-2017 08:35 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #157
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(04-30-2017 08:35 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(04-27-2017 01:17 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(04-26-2017 10:48 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 06:07 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 06:01 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  Curious what your criteria is for Lindenwood being "ready". I would think they'd want to have some conference championships before they'd want to make a move up.
How many conference titles did Cal Baptist have in the Big 2 which they don't have football so big 1. conf. titles don't even matter or GVSU and NW Mo. St. would have been D-I years ago. It's the schools w/ big dreams that can afford to do it, that do it. Belmont, Birmingham-So. and Lipscomb had big dreams and did the no longer legal double jump. TAMU-CC went from nothing to D-I. FGCU went from not a school to D-II to D-I before even getting their feet wet.

It's probably all a moot point for the schools w/ football that won't drop it like Omaha to move to the WAC or SL. The SL would have to start football and force their MVFC members to play SL football. Then there'd be 4 spots or so in each for members w/ football.

So let me ask you who now in the NAIA has big dreams that you see going to D-II soon?

I don't think it needs to be in the high profile sports, they can make their name by being strong in minor sports to get their foot in the door. Cal Baptist has won 10 PacWest championships in the last 6 years they've been in the conference, covering almost all of their sports. They've proven they can win at the D2 level. If they want to give D1 a shot, more power to 'em. I guess we can say "more power" to Lindenwood too if that's what they want to do, but if they can't win in D2 why would we suggest they go?

The former NAIA schools you mention aren't really comparable. It was a different era, and they were highly successful already. These days, NAIA is roughly equal to D2; back then, they were definitely above D2 (except possibly in football). Add College of Charleston, who went directly from NAIA power to NCAA Big Dance Cinderella. Not that big a jump 20 years ago. And back then, there was no post-season ineligibility years that can cripple programs.

I think the last 8 years have shown the NAIA members that the grass is not greener in D2, and that it takes a great deal of money to maintain the same level of success. Sources of money are endowments, booster contributions, and bundling it in with tuition when you have enough students to spread it out into a minimal increase. I think most of the ones that qualify are already gone. I haven't heard of ANY D2 applications this year... there might be, but there's no scuttlebutt. I could give an unqualified "yes, could be successful" to any school over 5000 on campus undergraduates. 3000 would be a stretch. If it DOES happen, it will likely be someone like Biola (4225 enrollment) who's making the move to re-associate with with historic rivals like CBU, APU, CUI and PLNU, or like Davenport & Purdue NW (both over 10k enrollment) who get invites. Much more likely to be schools in the NAIA's sweet spot (private under 2500) or small public directional transitioning from D2 to the NAIA.
Biola, Davenport, and Purdue NW are already moving, I'm asking about other ones that haven't already applied to D-II. C of C had to get in as an at large they weren't eligible for the TAAC tourney. They had a longer 7 yr provisional period since they were NAIA.

PWC isn't close to as good as the MIAA which may be the best D-II conf. if not the NSIC is. Really most don't care about anything other than football or bball. Some areas like out west where we are baseball is big. In the NE, Atlantic Lax is, in the North and East hockey is.

If Dominican(CA) was awesome at water polo, rowing and track, we wouldn't be clamoring for them to move up over a team w/ a decent football program or a more than decent bball program. Football, then bball drive most of the conference moves. I wonder if anyone could answer what made NJIT feel they should move up to D-I. Plus prior success in D-II doesn't equal good in D-I. Neither does not living up to potential in D-II equal failure in D-I. NDSU wasn't its dominate 80's self in 2004 when they moved. It was UND, GVSU, NW Mo. Northern Colorado won back to back titles in the late 90s and moved up to D-I and have done very little.

When would you say the NAIA stopped being the on par w/ D-II, NAIA?

I think we've gotten to the point where we're talking past each other.

I know Biola, Davenport and PNW are going D2; I referred to them because they are examples of who can go, and possibly should. Certainly DU and PNW are big enough, and there aren't any that big that remain. I think at the time that C of C transitioned it was only a 4 year period, and the NAIA allowed them to remain members and post season eligible until the final year. In other words, they had no years of post season ineligibility. Now it's a 7 year transition and can't be NAIA members after the first, so SIX years of post season ineligibility unless they join the NCCAA as well (or possibly USCCA? I don't know).

Important to remember that PNW is only 1 year old. It's all about future potential with them. Prior to this year they were two different schools, Purdue Calumet and Purdue North Central. Neither was well funded in athletics, although P-Calumet was gaining credibility.

Your paragraph about Dominican really goes to the heart of why I asked. Who cares what "we" clamor for? Your original statement that caught my attention was that Lindenwood was "ready". The real question is what do they want for their athletic program, and what would suggest to THEM that they are "ready"? I would think some athletic success at the conference level would be a prerequisite, and Lindenwood has had none. You could even say they would want a football or men's basketball conference championship, but they certainly haven't had that. If THEY think that simply being D1 would generate a lot more athletic donations and bigger crowds, more power to them I guess, most want to see some success first.

And I never said the NAIA wasn't on par with D2; I said they no longer significantly BETTER than D2. Specifically, there are no teams remaining capable of pulling off what College of Charleston did and going to the D1 Big Dance right out of the gate. I don't have a list of NAIA to D1 transitions handy, but I would put Belmont and Lipscomb just a notch below C of C, and there's been no one like that since. Houston Baptist transitioned, but they clearly have a lot of work to do before they could be considered successful.



Lindenwood is located in the Saint Louis market. I think they could get invited to the Horizon League.

Schools like Park University with a large student population might make it at the D2.

I might see some public NAIA schools to move up to D2 to attract more students. It just depends on who runs the schools that could make it.
04-30-2017 10:23 PM
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AZcats Offline
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Post: #158
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
Quote:Lindenwood is located in the Saint Louis market. I think they could get invited to the Horizon League.

Ask CUSA how adding schools in markets worked for them. Saint Louis is all about the Cardinals and the Blues with Saint Louis University a distant second. No other area school is going to deliver a market to anyone.
04-30-2017 11:43 PM
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Fresno St. Alum Offline
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Post: #159
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(04-30-2017 08:35 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(04-27-2017 01:17 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(04-26-2017 10:48 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 06:07 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(04-25-2017 06:01 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  Curious what your criteria is for Lindenwood being "ready". I would think they'd want to have some conference championships before they'd want to make a move up.
How many conference titles did Cal Baptist have in the Big 2 which they don't have football so big 1. conf. titles don't even matter or GVSU and NW Mo. St. would have been D-I years ago. It's the schools w/ big dreams that can afford to do it, that do it. Belmont, Birmingham-So. and Lipscomb had big dreams and did the no longer legal double jump. TAMU-CC went from nothing to D-I. FGCU went from not a school to D-II to D-I before even getting their feet wet.

It's probably all a moot point for the schools w/ football that won't drop it like Omaha to move to the WAC or SL. The SL would have to start football and force their MVFC members to play SL football. Then there'd be 4 spots or so in each for members w/ football.

So let me ask you who now in the NAIA has big dreams that you see going to D-II soon?

I don't think it needs to be in the high profile sports, they can make their name by being strong in minor sports to get their foot in the door. Cal Baptist has won 10 PacWest championships in the last 6 years they've been in the conference, covering almost all of their sports. They've proven they can win at the D2 level. If they want to give D1 a shot, more power to 'em. I guess we can say "more power" to Lindenwood too if that's what they want to do, but if they can't win in D2 why would we suggest they go?

The former NAIA schools you mention aren't really comparable. It was a different era, and they were highly successful already. These days, NAIA is roughly equal to D2; back then, they were definitely above D2 (except possibly in football). Add College of Charleston, who went directly from NAIA power to NCAA Big Dance Cinderella. Not that big a jump 20 years ago. And back then, there was no post-season ineligibility years that can cripple programs.

I think the last 8 years have shown the NAIA members that the grass is not greener in D2, and that it takes a great deal of money to maintain the same level of success. Sources of money are endowments, booster contributions, and bundling it in with tuition when you have enough students to spread it out into a minimal increase. I think most of the ones that qualify are already gone. I haven't heard of ANY D2 applications this year... there might be, but there's no scuttlebutt. I could give an unqualified "yes, could be successful" to any school over 5000 on campus undergraduates. 3000 would be a stretch. If it DOES happen, it will likely be someone like Biola (4225 enrollment) who's making the move to re-associate with with historic rivals like CBU, APU, CUI and PLNU, or like Davenport & Purdue NW (both over 10k enrollment) who get invites. Much more likely to be schools in the NAIA's sweet spot (private under 2500) or small public directional transitioning from D2 to the NAIA.
Biola, Davenport, and Purdue NW are already moving, I'm asking about other ones that haven't already applied to D-II. C of C had to get in as an at large they weren't eligible for the TAAC tourney. They had a longer 7 yr provisional period since they were NAIA.

PWC isn't close to as good as the MIAA which may be the best D-II conf. if not the NSIC is. Really most don't care about anything other than football or bball. Some areas like out west where we are baseball is big. In the NE, Atlantic Lax is, in the North and East hockey is.

If Dominican(CA) was awesome at water polo, rowing and track, we wouldn't be clamoring for them to move up over a team w/ a decent football program or a more than decent bball program. Football, then bball drive most of the conference moves. I wonder if anyone could answer what made NJIT feel they should move up to D-I. Plus prior success in D-II doesn't equal good in D-I. Neither does not living up to potential in D-II equal failure in D-I. NDSU wasn't its dominate 80's self in 2004 when they moved. It was UND, GVSU, NW Mo. Northern Colorado won back to back titles in the late 90s and moved up to D-I and have done very little.

When would you say the NAIA stopped being the on par w/ D-II, NAIA?

I think we've gotten to the point where we're talking past each other.

I know Biola, Davenport and PNW are going D2; I referred to them because they are examples of who can go, and possibly should. Certainly DU and PNW are big enough, and there aren't any that big that remain. I think at the time that C of C transitioned it was only a 4 year period, and the NAIA allowed them to remain members and post season eligible until the final year. In other words, they had no years of post season ineligibility. Now it's a 7 year transition and can't be NAIA members after the first, so SIX years of post season ineligibility unless they join the NCCAA as well (or possibly USCCA? I don't know).

Important to remember that PNW is only 1 year old. It's all about future potential with them. Prior to this year they were two different schools, Purdue Calumet and Purdue North Central. Neither was well funded in athletics, although P-Calumet was gaining credibility.

Your paragraph about Dominican really goes to the heart of why I asked. Who cares what "we" clamor for? Your original statement that caught my attention was that Lindenwood was "ready". The real question is what do they want for their athletic program, and what would suggest to THEM that they are "ready"? I would think some athletic success at the conference level would be a prerequisite, and Lindenwood has had none. You could even say they would want a football or men's basketball conference championship, but they certainly haven't had that. If THEY think that simply being D1 would generate a lot more athletic donations and bigger crowds, more power to them I guess, most want to see some success first.

And I never said the NAIA wasn't on par with D2; I said they no longer significantly BETTER than D2. Specifically, there are no teams remaining capable of pulling off what College of Charleston did and going to the D1 Big Dance right out of the gate. I don't have a list of NAIA to D1 transitions handy, but I would put Belmont and Lipscomb just a notch below C of C, and there's been no one like that since. Houston Baptist transitioned, but they clearly have a lot of work to do before they could be considered successful.
You'd have to ask the D-2 board guys that say Lindenwood should, wants, aspires to be D-I. They need a home for football or there is no sense worrying if they're ready.

Now, there is no 7 year move. An NAIA school would have 3 yr provisional in D-II plus 5 as a full member before being able to move to D-I.

Charleston, Belmont, Lipscomb, Birm-Southern, Houston Baptist(former D-I so they got a waiver) came straight from NAIA. Ok City backed out at the end before the moratorium D-I put on future members in 2008. UVU from JUCO and TAMU-CC from not having sports.

You always say NAIA was better than D-II, funny the D-II guys said they've always been better. I look at it this way, the D-II playoff schools the last 15-20 years were better than the NAIA playoff schools for the most part, in football and basketball. The GVSUs, UNA, NW Mo, UND, N.Colos, Valdosta Sts were better than the Carrolls, Sioux Falls, Georgetown(KY), St. Francis(IN) NW Ok. Same in bball, the CSUBs, Kentucky Wesleyans, Metro St., UC Davis> Life, Ok City, G'town, Birm-So.
(This post was last modified: 05-01-2017 03:04 AM by Fresno St. Alum.)
05-01-2017 03:01 AM
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templefootballfan Offline
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Post: #160
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
i liked to see Canadaian schools down here
05-01-2017 03:07 AM
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