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D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
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Rube Dali Offline
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D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
Some interesting news out of Oklahoma as Panhandle State is leaving Division II for a return to the NAIA. http://guymondailyherald.com/content/pan...-drop-naia

This, unfortunately, does not help the WAC restart FBS membership.

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10-03-2016 12:27 PM
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MWC Tex Offline
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
Interesting. However, move from D2 to NAIA is not 'dropping' down. NAIA and D2 are pretty much the same. While some D2 school get some NCAA $$, the annual fees wipe most of that out. NAIA fees are much cheaper.
In addition, I found that the most schools in the NAIA and D2 are the same level of competition. NAIA also lets you focus on 6 sports rather than 10.

They only difference in scholarships between the D2 and NAIA is that D2 allow 36 equivalent for football and NAIA allows 24 equivalent
10-03-2016 12:45 PM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-03-2016 12:45 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Interesting. However, move from D2 to NAIA is not 'dropping' down. NAIA and D2 are pretty much the same. While some D2 school get some NCAA $$, the annual fees wipe most of that out. NAIA fees are much cheaper.
In addition, I found that the most schools in the NAIA and D2 are the same level of competition. NAIA also lets you focus on 6 sports rather than 10.

They only difference in scholarships between the D2 and NAIA is that D2 allow 36 equivalent for football and NAIA allows 24 equivalent

D2 academics are much better. You can recruit some real sketchy academics at NAIAs. Ask Lindendwood how its been going from NAIA powerhouse to D2. They could take chances on lots of players who were D1 talent but couldn't come close academically.
10-03-2016 01:07 PM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-03-2016 12:45 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Interesting. However, move from D2 to NAIA is not 'dropping' down. NAIA and D2 are pretty much the same. While some D2 school get some NCAA $$, the annual fees wipe most of that out. NAIA fees are much cheaper.
In addition, I found that the most schools in the NAIA and D2 are the same level of competition. NAIA also lets you focus on 6 sports rather than 10.

They only difference in scholarships between the D2 and NAIA is that D2 allow 36 equivalent for football and NAIA allows 24 equivalent

The top 25 schools in D-II would disagree w/ you. GVSU (25k) is bigger than Fresno St.(22k). Wayne St., San Francisco St. have around 30K students.
10-04-2016 02:14 AM
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DavidSt Online
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
Actually, Oklahoma Panhandle State was actually a duel membership in both NAIA and NCAA.

At the beginning of the 1900s, a lot of the NAIA schools were considered D1 if they stayed at the highest level. Baker and many of the other Kansas schools at the NAIA level were conference mates with Kansas, Kansas State, Wichita State, and so forth.

Same with most of the Oklahoma schools including Kingfisher College which is closed down.

KCAC started started in 1890 which Kansas, Kansas State and Washburn were founding members. First football game played in Kansas was between Baker against Kansas Jayhawks. Baker won that game. The members of this conference were.

Bethany 1902 joined
Bethel 1902
Friends 1902
Kansas Wesleyan 1902
McPherson 1902
Ottawa 1902
Southwestern, Kansas 1902
Sterling 1902
Baker 1902 left 1970
College of Emporia 1902 left 1970 closed in 1974
Emporia State 1924 left 1928
Fort Hays State 1902 left 1928
Kansas City 1902 left 1923 closed 1933
Pittsburg State 1902 left 1928
St. Benedict's 1902 left 1928
St. John's Kansas 1902 left 1923 closed in 1968
St. Mary's Kansas 1902 left 1931 dropped sports
Washburn 1902 left 1928
Wichita State 1902 left 1923

The original name of the conference was called Kansas Intercollegiate Athletic Association. Many of the schools above were part of this including Kansas 1890 to 1902, Kansas State 1890 to 1902. KIAA was a 17 member conference from Kansas.
Wichita State was called Fairmont State back then, and St Benedict's new name is Benedictine Kansas now.

NAIA did not formed until 1940. So, any conferences formed before 1940 was considered major conferences before the split.

Other conferences NAIA that would have been considered D1.
Frontier Conference 1935
River States was Kentucky 1916

I could see some of the NAIA publics that could go to D2.


Davenport and Biola was accepted to NCAA D2. Indiana U.-Northwest formally Indiana U.-Calumet was rejected and need to fix their academics to reapply.
Emmanuel U. of Georgia got booted from the process to upgrade, and need to reapply in the future.

http://www.ncaa.org/about/resources/medi...31064577=1
10-04-2016 04:56 AM
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MWC Tex Offline
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-04-2016 02:14 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(10-03-2016 12:45 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Interesting. However, move from D2 to NAIA is not 'dropping' down. NAIA and D2 are pretty much the same. While some D2 school get some NCAA $$, the annual fees wipe most of that out. NAIA fees are much cheaper.
In addition, I found that the most schools in the NAIA and D2 are the same level of competition. NAIA also lets you focus on 6 sports rather than 10.

They only difference in scholarships between the D2 and NAIA is that D2 allow 36 equivalent for football and NAIA allows 24 equivalent

The top 25 schools in D-II would disagree w/ you. GVSU (25k) is bigger than Fresno St.(22k). Wayne St., San Francisco St. have around 30K students.

Enrollment doesn't matter, competitively both are quite equal.
10-04-2016 07:10 AM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
Some of the top D2 schools could actually compete as FBS members. A lot of history with D2, D3 and NAIA schools at the top levels at one point and time. Back in the early years, academics did not matter to be part of a conference. Lake Forest could be a Big 10 member if they joined as a founder. Iowa, and many of the Big 12 schools were conference mates with schools like Grinnell, Drake and others. Texas was a conference mates with Phillips and Southwestern. ACC, SEC and West Virginia were conference mates with some CAA, Southern, SBC, Southland, Big South, Ohio Valley, D2 and D3 schools who were not AAU. PAC 12 members have conference mates who were members at one point with the Border, RMAC, Idaho, Montana, Northern Arizona, UTEP, New Mexico State, West Texas A&M, College of Idaho, D3 northwest schools, D3 southwest California schools, and some D2 California schools. Denver was one of them as well with football in the old RMAC days. The academics is nothing but an excuse for not inviting any schools to join.
10-04-2016 07:51 AM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-03-2016 01:07 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  
(10-03-2016 12:45 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Interesting. However, move from D2 to NAIA is not 'dropping' down. NAIA and D2 are pretty much the same. While some D2 school get some NCAA $$, the annual fees wipe most of that out. NAIA fees are much cheaper.
In addition, I found that the most schools in the NAIA and D2 are the same level of competition. NAIA also lets you focus on 6 sports rather than 10.

They only difference in scholarships between the D2 and NAIA is that D2 allow 36 equivalent for football and NAIA allows 24 equivalent

D2 academics are much better. You can recruit some real sketchy academics at NAIAs. Ask Lindendwood how its been going from NAIA powerhouse to D2. They could take chances on lots of players who were D1 talent but couldn't come close academically.

This is true. As an example Lewis Clark State College in Idaho is a huge baseball power at the NAIA level due in part to the fact that their academic requirements are basically nonexistent. Even for an NAIA school. They regularly get players with D1 talent who flunk out or get kicked out of big name baseball programs. That's not to say they don't have excellent coaching as well, but the talent gap is easy to see when they play schools like College of Idaho (a private NAIA school) or British Columbia that have fairly strict academic requirements.

It would definitely be harder for them to compete without their lower standards for athletes. That said, they do regularly beat up on D2 schools like Central Washington and generally compete very well against schools like Gonzaga, WSU, and UW. In baseball at least.
(This post was last modified: 10-04-2016 02:59 PM by Cave_Johnson.)
10-04-2016 02:57 PM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
THere is actually a movement of D2 schools going down to D3. Pfieffer, St. Anselm, Brevard come to mind.
10-04-2016 03:37 PM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
I think St. Anselm flirting with the NEWMAC was more about trying to improve their academic neighborhood, but that conference decided against expansion and so the Hawks will be staying put in the NE-10.
10-04-2016 03:56 PM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-03-2016 12:45 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Interesting. However, move from D2 to NAIA is not 'dropping' down. NAIA and D2 are pretty much the same. While some D2 school get some NCAA $$, the annual fees wipe most of that out. NAIA fees are much cheaper.
In addition, I found that the most schools in the NAIA and D2 are the same level of competition. NAIA also lets you focus on 6 sports rather than 10.

They only difference in scholarships between the D2 and NAIA is that D2 allow 36 equivalent for football and NAIA allows 24 equivalent

You are essentially correct except for some details. The NAIA's association fees are actually higher, but NAIA conference fees are much lower then NCAA conference fees, and NCAA has personnel and infrastructure requirements that make the NCAA MUCH more expensive overall.

I'm not sure about all the sports, but NAIA DI allows 11 basketball scholarships compared with NCAA D2's 10. But overall, it's essentially a side-step for someone moving between the two.
10-04-2016 04:35 PM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-04-2016 04:35 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(10-03-2016 12:45 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Interesting. However, move from D2 to NAIA is not 'dropping' down. NAIA and D2 are pretty much the same. While some D2 school get some NCAA $$, the annual fees wipe most of that out. NAIA fees are much cheaper.
In addition, I found that the most schools in the NAIA and D2 are the same level of competition. NAIA also lets you focus on 6 sports rather than 10.

They only difference in scholarships between the D2 and NAIA is that D2 allow 36 equivalent for football and NAIA allows 24 equivalent

You are essentially correct except for some details. The NAIA's association fees are actually higher, but NAIA conference fees are much lower then NCAA conference fees, and NCAA has personnel and infrastructure requirements that make the NCAA MUCH more expensive overall.

I'm not sure about all the sports, but NAIA DI allows 11 basketball scholarships compared with NCAA D2's 10. But overall, it's essentially a side-step for someone moving between the two.

NAIA due are $7500 yearly, D2 is around $15k if I remember correctly. Conference dues I have not idea about but NAIA states average is around $9500.

http://www.naia.org/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_...=205323010
10-04-2016 04:43 PM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-03-2016 01:07 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  D2 academics are much better. You can recruit some real sketchy academics at NAIAs. Ask Lindendwood how its been going from NAIA powerhouse to D2. They could take chances on lots of players who were D1 talent but couldn't come close academically.

Not true. GPA and test score requirements are basically the same; before this year's revisions (both associations) the NAIA's were actually higher. BUT! It used to be true, that while the requirements were higher, it was up to each school to certify that their recruits met the requirements. There was no central eligibility arbitrator like the NCAA has. Policing the policy was done via complaint, and the theory was that the coaches all knew who was an eligibility problem and it would get taken care of. The problem of course was that it wouldn't get taken care of, or if so, after damage was done. So a few years ago the NAIA started their own eligibility center (PlayNAIA.com) where all recruits has to be certified. So this problem has basically been solved.

The one big difference in academic eligibility remains in that the NCAA requires a certain core curriculum in high school. This may sound like a high minded goal, but in reality it's really an anti-home school rule. And from an NCAA D1 point of view, probably a good rule. Otherwise some dummy with mad basketball skills would avoid academic work by going the home school route and get recruited with fictitious straight A's. Athletes may do that to go to UNC, but not to Mid-America Christian University.

There are some of us who thing that Lindenwood's thought process was "yikes, we have to prove they're smart enough for college now. It's going to look real bad if we can't get the same level of recruits now. We can probably cover our tracks by going D2, so the comparisons will be harder to make". And I would add that the number of schools who pulled these sorts of shenanigans was very small, and everyone knew who they were.
10-04-2016 04:47 PM
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teamvsn Offline
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-04-2016 04:56 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  Actually, Oklahoma Panhandle State was actually a duel membership in both NAIA and NCAA.

Close, but not quite true. Dual membership isn't allowed. What Panhandle did, as an NCAA D2 independent, was join the Central States Football League, which is an NAIA conference. As an affiliate. They played a full CSFL schedule but since they weren't NAIA members they were ineligible for NAIA post season play. IIRC, Quincy was a similar affiliate to the Mid-South conference for football as well, for a while.
10-04-2016 04:51 PM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-04-2016 07:10 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Enrollment doesn't matter, competitively both are quite equal.

Yep. Marian (2015 NAIA Champ) beat U Indy, who lost in the D2 first round last year. Doesn't mean the NAIA is better, but they are in the same ballpark.
10-04-2016 04:53 PM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-04-2016 02:57 PM)Cave_Johnson Wrote:  This is true. As an example Lewis Clark State College in Idaho is a huge baseball power at the NAIA level due in part to the fact that their academic requirements are basically nonexistent. Even for an NAIA school. They regularly get players with D1 talent who flunk out or get kicked out of big name baseball programs. That's not to say they don't have excellent coaching as well, but the talent gap is easy to see when they play schools like College of Idaho (a private NAIA school) or British Columbia that have fairly strict academic requirements.

It would definitely be harder for them to compete without their lower standards for athletes. That said, they do regularly beat up on D2 schools like Central Washington and generally compete very well against schools like Gonzaga, WSU, and UW. In baseball at least.

Again, NOT true, at least since PlayNAIA came into being. And LCSC won the NAIA world series again this year. Players go there because they win, it's a great baseball town, they have a fantastic facility, and their players get drafted and make it to the pros on a regular basis.
10-04-2016 04:56 PM
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DavidSt Online
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-04-2016 03:37 PM)fsquid Wrote:  THere is actually a movement of D2 schools going down to D3. Pfieffer, St. Anselm, Brevard come to mind.


Malone is moving down to D3. They have the largest football stadium in D2.

Dean College moved up from NJCAA to D3 this year.
10-04-2016 04:58 PM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-04-2016 04:43 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  NAIA due are $7500 yearly, D2 is around $15k if I remember correctly. Conference dues I have not idea about but NAIA states average is around $9500.

http://www.naia.org/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_...=205323010

Thanks, I would be interested in knowing your source. I had been told that D2 fees were around $1000 (with a LOT of expenses elsewhere). When the recent wave of NAIA to D2 migration started a lot of administrators were pumping the simplistic view that NCAA was cheaper simply because their fees were cheaper. But that may have changed...
10-04-2016 04:59 PM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-04-2016 04:58 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 03:37 PM)fsquid Wrote:  THere is actually a movement of D2 schools going down to D3. Pfieffer, St. Anselm, Brevard come to mind.


Malone is moving down to D3. They have the largest football stadium in D2.

Dean College moved up from NJCAA to D3 this year.

Source please. They considered it before the G-MAC solidified itself with all those schools from the GLIAC. So I don't believe they are going anywhere. They also considered going back to the NAIA. But the G-MAC is pretty solid now.
10-04-2016 05:02 PM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-04-2016 05:02 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 04:58 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 03:37 PM)fsquid Wrote:  THere is actually a movement of D2 schools going down to D3. Pfieffer, St. Anselm, Brevard come to mind.


Malone is moving down to D3. They have the largest football stadium in D2.

Dean College moved up from NJCAA to D3 this year.

Source please. They considered it before the G-MAC solidified itself with all those schools from the GLIAC. So I don't believe they are going anywhere. They also considered going back to the NAIA. But the G-MAC is pretty solid now.

Last year they said they were staying in DII

http://www.cantonrep.com/article/2015050.../150509734

Speculation over the Pioneers’ current NCAA status ended recently when the university’s board of trustees unanimously approved Malone’s decision to stay in Division II. The university was considering a drop to NCAA Division III.
10-04-2016 05:48 PM
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