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MWC Tex Online
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Post: #41
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-05-2016 01:05 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 07:10 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 02:14 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(10-03-2016 12:45 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Interesting. However, move from D2 to NAIA is not 'dropping' down. NAIA and D2 are pretty much the same. While some D2 school get some NCAA $$, the annual fees wipe most of that out. NAIA fees are much cheaper.
In addition, I found that the most schools in the NAIA and D2 are the same level of competition. NAIA also lets you focus on 6 sports rather than 10.

They only difference in scholarships between the D2 and NAIA is that D2 allow 36 equivalent for football and NAIA allows 24 equivalent

The top 25 schools in D-II would disagree w/ you. GVSU (25k) is bigger than Fresno St.(22k). Wayne St., San Francisco St. have around 30K students.

Enrollment doesn't matter, competitively both are quite equal.
No they're not, NAIA top schools have little chance against top D-II schools. bottom feeding D-II school can be beat by top NAIA schools. It's like saying FBS and FCS are equal because Michigan lost to App St. and EMU lost to"enter name fcs school". No, the good FCS teams can beat bottom feeding FBS, and NDSU can beat lots of teams but still are not even close to Bama or anyone else high up. Iowa already lost again, they were exposed and not a real top 25 team. Hell the NAIA doesn't even have a NDSU type. Look at Sioux Falls and Lindenwood who were dominant in the NAIA, they've had rough times in D-II they didn't come in and destroy D-II like NDSU did when moving to FCS. NW Mo St. Minn St. GVSU UNA Valdosta Sts. of the world are the big time programs not the recent move ups from NAIA.

I just checked the current top 25 of D-II. Only 2 schools are former NAIA from 2000 on. APU(2011 move up) and Sioux Falls(2009 move up)

I totally disagree. Top 25 naia and top 25 d2 will be quite competitve against each other. In addition, the other sports are competitive also. Take track and field, the records are just the same. Basketball has quite a bit of crossover games and naia teams regularly beat d2 teams.
10-05-2016 05:28 PM
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teamvsn Offline
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Post: #42
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-05-2016 05:28 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 01:05 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 07:10 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 02:14 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(10-03-2016 12:45 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Interesting. However, move from D2 to NAIA is not 'dropping' down. NAIA and D2 are pretty much the same. While some D2 school get some NCAA $$, the annual fees wipe most of that out. NAIA fees are much cheaper.
In addition, I found that the most schools in the NAIA and D2 are the same level of competition. NAIA also lets you focus on 6 sports rather than 10.

They only difference in scholarships between the D2 and NAIA is that D2 allow 36 equivalent for football and NAIA allows 24 equivalent

The top 25 schools in D-II would disagree w/ you. GVSU (25k) is bigger than Fresno St.(22k). Wayne St., San Francisco St. have around 30K students.

Enrollment doesn't matter, competitively both are quite equal.
No they're not, NAIA top schools have little chance against top D-II schools. bottom feeding D-II school can be beat by top NAIA schools. It's like saying FBS and FCS are equal because Michigan lost to App St. and EMU lost to"enter name fcs school". No, the good FCS teams can beat bottom feeding FBS, and NDSU can beat lots of teams but still are not even close to Bama or anyone else high up. Iowa already lost again, they were exposed and not a real top 25 team. Hell the NAIA doesn't even have a NDSU type. Look at Sioux Falls and Lindenwood who were dominant in the NAIA, they've had rough times in D-II they didn't come in and destroy D-II like NDSU did when moving to FCS. NW Mo St. Minn St. GVSU UNA Valdosta Sts. of the world are the big time programs not the recent move ups from NAIA.

I just checked the current top 25 of D-II. Only 2 schools are former NAIA from 2000 on. APU(2011 move up) and Sioux Falls(2009 move up)

I totally disagree. Top 25 naia and top 25 d2 will be quite competitve against each other. In addition, the other sports are competitive also. Take track and field, the records are just the same. Basketball has quite a bit of crossover games and naia teams regularly beat d2 teams.

It really depends on the sport. D2 has an advantage in football because it's 36 schollies vs. NAIA's 24. As I mentioned, check Marian vs U Indy last year. You don't see many head to head in football because it hurts D2 team's ratings to play a game against NAIA. And it's a stretch to compare the same team in NAIA vs recent move to D2; the process basically cripples your program and you have to start over, plus there tends to be HUGE turnover by the coaches during the transition. In basketball, the NAIA DI has the advantage with 11 schollies vs 10 in D2, and indeed there's a recent string of top NAIA DI's beating top D2's. FSU Alum, don't judge the NAIA by Fresno Pacific. Lastly, look at who won the women's D2 basketball championship last year: Lubbock Christian, who just transitioned to D2. Note that their starters were all NAIA recruits, with the same coach. Basically an NAIA team.

After the transition, schools are basically on 1 of 2 trajectories: If they leave the NAIA "stocked" with young talent (Azusa, Lubbock) they red shirt them so they will have a year or two of post season eligibility left, and they make a big splash in D2, and hopefully build from there. If not, it's a long slog to adapt to all the recruiting restrictions and higher expenses. There are many teams who make a big splash with their NAIA recruits and then trail off or never even get a good launch.
10-05-2016 05:47 PM
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teamvsn Offline
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Post: #43
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-05-2016 05:00 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 02:36 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 01:32 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  I've been speaking with one of the people I follow on twitter(he works for Goshen College) and he told me at least three DIII members from Indiana have been reconsidering their continued membership at that level. At least one, Anderson, was named as a possible leaver. Now, nothing has been decided yet, but I get this feeling there might be more than just 3 DIII schools from Indiana looking to move on.


Upwards to DII, or to NAIA/or one of the other ones like NCCAA?

Definitely not upwards IMO. What's the benefit? All 10 of Indiana's D-3 schools are too small to have upward ambitions.

Since NAIA is roughly on par with D2, NAIA would be a move "up" too. These schools would be able to offer legitimate athletic scholarships and STILL have a smaller budget than in D3 (according to NAIA research I've seen). Remember that there's still a ton of rules and overhead for D3, and to be competitive they have to offer "leadership" scholarships - which may not technically be athletic department dollars, it still comes from somewhere.

I have heard from someone who should know that the NAIA is expecting "a lot" of applicants this year although no numbers were quoted. In recent years the applicant pool has been 4 or 5, so I would think "a lot" might be 8 to 10. And in addition to Panhandle I would expect a mix of D3's, new programs, USCAA, NCCAA and possibly another D2 thrown in. I think this year might mark the beginning of a slide of D2's who can't justify the expense moving to NAIA over the next 10 years.
10-05-2016 05:58 PM
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Post: #44
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
I figure someone's going to doubt what I say about NAIA being cheaper than D3, so here's the chart I've seen (d2 comparison as well). It is somewhat dated by now, but not too badly.

http://www.naia.org/fls/27900/1NAIA/reso...M_ID=27900
10-05-2016 06:47 PM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #45
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-05-2016 05:28 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 01:05 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 07:10 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 02:14 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(10-03-2016 12:45 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Interesting. However, move from D2 to NAIA is not 'dropping' down. NAIA and D2 are pretty much the same. While some D2 school get some NCAA $$, the annual fees wipe most of that out. NAIA fees are much cheaper.
In addition, I found that the most schools in the NAIA and D2 are the same level of competition. NAIA also lets you focus on 6 sports rather than 10.

They only difference in scholarships between the D2 and NAIA is that D2 allow 36 equivalent for football and NAIA allows 24 equivalent

The top 25 schools in D-II would disagree w/ you. GVSU (25k) is bigger than Fresno St.(22k). Wayne St., San Francisco St. have around 30K students.

Enrollment doesn't matter, competitively both are quite equal.
No they're not, NAIA top schools have little chance against top D-II schools. bottom feeding D-II school can be beat by top NAIA schools. It's like saying FBS and FCS are equal because Michigan lost to App St. and EMU lost to"enter name fcs school". No, the good FCS teams can beat bottom feeding FBS, and NDSU can beat lots of teams but still are not even close to Bama or anyone else high up. Iowa already lost again, they were exposed and not a real top 25 team. Hell the NAIA doesn't even have a NDSU type. Look at Sioux Falls and Lindenwood who were dominant in the NAIA, they've had rough times in D-II they didn't come in and destroy D-II like NDSU did when moving to FCS. NW Mo St. Minn St. GVSU UNA Valdosta Sts. of the world are the big time programs not the recent move ups from NAIA.

I just checked the current top 25 of D-II. Only 2 schools are former NAIA from 2000 on. APU(2011 move up) and Sioux Falls(2009 move up)

I totally disagree. Top 25 naia and top 25 d2 will be quite competitve against each other. In addition, the other sports are competitive also. Take track and field, the records are just the same. Basketball has quite a bit of crossover games and naia teams regularly beat d2 teams.

Some NAIA basketball is competitive with even low DI. There are two divisions in NAIA for basketball, and their top teams could sometmes gives NCAA DI teams fits.

NAIA football sucks eggs, as Lindenwood and Sioux Falls were the only recent NAIA teams that could have been competing in DII. They have both fallen now in DII as they have to follow NCAA rules.
10-05-2016 07:09 PM
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Post: #46
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-05-2016 05:58 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 05:00 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 02:36 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 01:32 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  I've been speaking with one of the people I follow on twitter(he works for Goshen College) and he told me at least three DIII members from Indiana have been reconsidering their continued membership at that level. At least one, Anderson, was named as a possible leaver. Now, nothing has been decided yet, but I get this feeling there might be more than just 3 DIII schools from Indiana looking to move on.


Upwards to DII, or to NAIA/or one of the other ones like NCCAA?

Definitely not upwards IMO. What's the benefit? All 10 of Indiana's D-3 schools are too small to have upward ambitions.

Since NAIA is roughly on par with D2, NAIA would be a move "up" too. These schools would be able to offer legitimate athletic scholarships and STILL have a smaller budget than in D3 (according to NAIA research I've seen). Remember that there's still a ton of rules and overhead for D3, and to be competitive they have to offer "leadership" scholarships - which may not technically be athletic department dollars, it still comes from somewhere.

I have heard from someone who should know that the NAIA is expecting "a lot" of applicants this year although no numbers were quoted. In recent years the applicant pool has been 4 or 5, so I would think "a lot" might be 8 to 10. And in addition to Panhandle I would expect a mix of D3's, new programs, USCAA, NCCAA and possibly another D2 thrown in. I think this year might mark the beginning of a slide of D2's who can't justify the expense moving to NAIA over the next 10 years.


Morthland I think might be one of the new programs just started football this year. They are in the NCCAA for the first year. Of course, there is University of Fort Lauderdale that claimed they want to apply for NAIA for next year. Virginia-Lynchburg seems to have their accreditation back, and may be looking for a new home.

I suspect there are some Junior colleges that could apply from moving to a 4 year. I wonder how Snow College in Utah doing? I might see Arizona Western in Yuma going to a 4 year school. Arizona needs more schools up there in the higher levels. Some Kansas JCs that some politicians are thinking of merging to create new 4 year universities from an article I read. It is a way for the state to save money.

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2016/08...yst_1.html

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015...ge-systems

http://ksnt.com/2014/03/25/fort-hays-dod...ss-merger/

This could kill Dodge City's football team as it would merge with Fort Hays State.

Middle Georgia State was a product from a merger of two community colleges. We could see more of them merging and some could join the nAIA or NCAA.
10-05-2016 09:08 PM
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Fresno St. Alum Offline
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Post: #47
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-05-2016 05:28 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 01:05 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 07:10 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 02:14 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(10-03-2016 12:45 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Interesting. However, move from D2 to NAIA is not 'dropping' down. NAIA and D2 are pretty much the same. While some D2 school get some NCAA $$, the annual fees wipe most of that out. NAIA fees are much cheaper.
In addition, I found that the most schools in the NAIA and D2 are the same level of competition. NAIA also lets you focus on 6 sports rather than 10.

They only difference in scholarships between the D2 and NAIA is that D2 allow 36 equivalent for football and NAIA allows 24 equivalent

The top 25 schools in D-II would disagree w/ you. GVSU (25k) is bigger than Fresno St.(22k). Wayne St., San Francisco St. have around 30K students.

Enrollment doesn't matter, competitively both are quite equal.
No they're not, NAIA top schools have little chance against top D-II schools. bottom feeding D-II school can be beat by top NAIA schools. It's like saying FBS and FCS are equal because Michigan lost to App St. and EMU lost to"enter name fcs school". No, the good FCS teams can beat bottom feeding FBS, and NDSU can beat lots of teams but still are not even close to Bama or anyone else high up. Iowa already lost again, they were exposed and not a real top 25 team. Hell the NAIA doesn't even have a NDSU type. Look at Sioux Falls and Lindenwood who were dominant in the NAIA, they've had rough times in D-II they didn't come in and destroy D-II like NDSU did when moving to FCS. NW Mo St. Minn St. GVSU UNA Valdosta Sts. of the world are the big time programs not the recent move ups from NAIA.

I just checked the current top 25 of D-II. Only 2 schools are former NAIA from 2000 on. APU(2011 move up) and Sioux Falls(2009 move up)

I totally disagree. Top 25 naia and top 25 d2 will be quite competitve against each other. In addition, the other sports are competitive also. Take track and field, the records are just the same. Basketball has quite a bit of crossover games and naia teams regularly beat d2 teams.

football and basketball are all I care about. And you don't see the good D-II schools losing to the NAIA schools, you will see Georgetown(KY) and some of the other top bball schools whip the lesser D-II schools. but it's not common. I think what they are, are similar in that most NAIA schools move up to D-II and the ones that drop D-II usually go back to the NAIA. Hardly and D-III move to D-II. Only a few move from D-II to D-III. I care more about the NAIA than D-III because there is more movement to D-II w/ them.

Rob, Sierra Nevada just got full NAIA membership, CPC or GSAC? Do/will they have basketball? I see it's the CPC but no basketball, yet they have men's lax. wtf?
(This post was last modified: 10-05-2016 10:31 PM by Fresno St. Alum.)
10-05-2016 10:24 PM
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teamvsn Offline
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Post: #48
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-05-2016 10:24 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 05:28 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 01:05 PM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 07:10 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 02:14 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  The top 25 schools in D-II would disagree w/ you. GVSU (25k) is bigger than Fresno St.(22k). Wayne St., San Francisco St. have around 30K students.

Enrollment doesn't matter, competitively both are quite equal.
No they're not, NAIA top schools have little chance against top D-II schools. bottom feeding D-II school can be beat by top NAIA schools. It's like saying FBS and FCS are equal because Michigan lost to App St. and EMU lost to"enter name fcs school". No, the good FCS teams can beat bottom feeding FBS, and NDSU can beat lots of teams but still are not even close to Bama or anyone else high up. Iowa already lost again, they were exposed and not a real top 25 team. Hell the NAIA doesn't even have a NDSU type. Look at Sioux Falls and Lindenwood who were dominant in the NAIA, they've had rough times in D-II they didn't come in and destroy D-II like NDSU did when moving to FCS. NW Mo St. Minn St. GVSU UNA Valdosta Sts. of the world are the big time programs not the recent move ups from NAIA.

I just checked the current top 25 of D-II. Only 2 schools are former NAIA from 2000 on. APU(2011 move up) and Sioux Falls(2009 move up)

I totally disagree. Top 25 naia and top 25 d2 will be quite competitve against each other. In addition, the other sports are competitive also. Take track and field, the records are just the same. Basketball has quite a bit of crossover games and naia teams regularly beat d2 teams.

football and basketball are all I care about. And you don't see the good D-II schools losing to the NAIA schools, you will see Georgetown(KY) and some of the other top bball schools whip the lesser D-II schools. but it's not common. I think what they are, are similar in that most NAIA schools move up to D-II and the ones that drop D-II usually go back to the NAIA. Hardly and D-III move to D-II. Only a few move from D-II to D-III. I care more about the NAIA than D-III because there is more movement to D-II w/ them.

Rob, Sierra Nevada just got full NAIA membership, CPC or GSAC? Do/will they have basketball? I see it's the CPC but no basketball, yet they have men's lax. wtf?

I don't know if they plan on basketball. LAX was something they could do before they were a member of anything. Snow sports were their big thing before they joined.
10-06-2016 01:28 AM
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teamvsn Offline
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Post: #49
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-05-2016 09:08 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 05:58 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 05:00 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 02:36 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 01:32 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  I've been speaking with one of the people I follow on twitter(he works for Goshen College) and he told me at least three DIII members from Indiana have been reconsidering their continued membership at that level. At least one, Anderson, was named as a possible leaver. Now, nothing has been decided yet, but I get this feeling there might be more than just 3 DIII schools from Indiana looking to move on.


Upwards to DII, or to NAIA/or one of the other ones like NCCAA?

Definitely not upwards IMO. What's the benefit? All 10 of Indiana's D-3 schools are too small to have upward ambitions.

Since NAIA is roughly on par with D2, NAIA would be a move "up" too. These schools would be able to offer legitimate athletic scholarships and STILL have a smaller budget than in D3 (according to NAIA research I've seen). Remember that there's still a ton of rules and overhead for D3, and to be competitive they have to offer "leadership" scholarships - which may not technically be athletic department dollars, it still comes from somewhere.

I have heard from someone who should know that the NAIA is expecting "a lot" of applicants this year although no numbers were quoted. In recent years the applicant pool has been 4 or 5, so I would think "a lot" might be 8 to 10. And in addition to Panhandle I would expect a mix of D3's, new programs, USCAA, NCCAA and possibly another D2 thrown in. I think this year might mark the beginning of a slide of D2's who can't justify the expense moving to NAIA over the next 10 years.


Morthland I think might be one of the new programs just started football this year. They are in the NCCAA for the first year. Of course, there is University of Fort Lauderdale that claimed they want to apply for NAIA for next year. Virginia-Lynchburg seems to have their accreditation back, and may be looking for a new home.

I suspect there are some Junior colleges that could apply from moving to a 4 year. I wonder how Snow College in Utah doing? I might see Arizona Western in Yuma going to a 4 year school. Arizona needs more schools up there in the higher levels. Some Kansas JCs that some politicians are thinking of merging to create new 4 year universities from an article I read. It is a way for the state to save money.

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2016/08...yst_1.html

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015...ge-systems

http://ksnt.com/2014/03/25/fort-hays-dod...ss-merger/

This could kill Dodge City's football team as it would merge with Fort Hays State.

Middle Georgia State was a product from a merger of two community colleges. We could see more of them merging and some could join the nAIA or NCAA.

Middle georgia is already NAIA

http://www.mgaknights.com
10-06-2016 01:30 AM
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DavidSt Online
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Post: #50
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-06-2016 01:30 AM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 09:08 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 05:58 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 05:00 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 02:36 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  Upwards to DII, or to NAIA/or one of the other ones like NCCAA?

Definitely not upwards IMO. What's the benefit? All 10 of Indiana's D-3 schools are too small to have upward ambitions.

Since NAIA is roughly on par with D2, NAIA would be a move "up" too. These schools would be able to offer legitimate athletic scholarships and STILL have a smaller budget than in D3 (according to NAIA research I've seen). Remember that there's still a ton of rules and overhead for D3, and to be competitive they have to offer "leadership" scholarships - which may not technically be athletic department dollars, it still comes from somewhere.

I have heard from someone who should know that the NAIA is expecting "a lot" of applicants this year although no numbers were quoted. In recent years the applicant pool has been 4 or 5, so I would think "a lot" might be 8 to 10. And in addition to Panhandle I would expect a mix of D3's, new programs, USCAA, NCCAA and possibly another D2 thrown in. I think this year might mark the beginning of a slide of D2's who can't justify the expense moving to NAIA over the next 10 years.


Morthland I think might be one of the new programs just started football this year. They are in the NCCAA for the first year. Of course, there is University of Fort Lauderdale that claimed they want to apply for NAIA for next year. Virginia-Lynchburg seems to have their accreditation back, and may be looking for a new home.

I suspect there are some Junior colleges that could apply from moving to a 4 year. I wonder how Snow College in Utah doing? I might see Arizona Western in Yuma going to a 4 year school. Arizona needs more schools up there in the higher levels. Some Kansas JCs that some politicians are thinking of merging to create new 4 year universities from an article I read. It is a way for the state to save money.

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2016/08...yst_1.html

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2015...ge-systems

http://ksnt.com/2014/03/25/fort-hays-dod...ss-merger/

This could kill Dodge City's football team as it would merge with Fort Hays State.

Middle Georgia State was a product from a merger of two community colleges. We could see more of them merging and some could join the nAIA or NCAA.

Middle georgia is already NAIA

http://www.mgaknights.com

I know. I am talking about the other community and Junior colleges merging and follow the path of Middle Georgia State. I used them as an example for others to follow suit.
10-06-2016 02:13 AM
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Post: #51
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-05-2016 11:38 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  CyclonePower,

I'm not saying you're wrong or that Madison does not actually desire to keep the UW schools down in DIII.

But that reasoning is pure bunk. Minnesota provides the perfect counter-example. All of the MN public schools are DII (except god-awful Morris, which should be a private liberal arts college anyway ...), yet the Gophers have never lost a kid they asked to walk-on to a MN public school, initially. Sure, the kid might transfer out if getting passed up on the depth chart.

The real threats they have to worry about (they being Minnesota, Wisconsin) are the FCS Dakota teams, FCS UNI, and NIU (moreso Wisconsin).

Had Wisconsin-Green Bay not made it to March Madness this year, the Wisconsin legislature was going to force them do move down to DII, and has been trying to do the same with Wisconsin-Milwaukee, although they seem to keep raising enough money to stay in DI. I agree with you that the Wisconsin legislature is really short-sighted, and don't understand their reasoning at all. I'm not sure why those two teams haven't joined the MVC or Summit to cut down on travel.
10-08-2016 02:23 AM
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Post: #52
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-08-2016 02:23 AM)dxdtdemon Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 11:38 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  CyclonePower,

I'm not saying you're wrong or that Madison does not actually desire to keep the UW schools down in DIII.

But that reasoning is pure bunk. Minnesota provides the perfect counter-example. All of the MN public schools are DII (except god-awful Morris, which should be a private liberal arts college anyway ...), yet the Gophers have never lost a kid they asked to walk-on to a MN public school, initially. Sure, the kid might transfer out if getting passed up on the depth chart.

The real threats they have to worry about (they being Minnesota, Wisconsin) are the FCS Dakota teams, FCS UNI, and NIU (moreso Wisconsin).

Had Wisconsin-Green Bay not made it to March Madness this year, the Wisconsin legislature was going to force them do move down to DII, and has been trying to do the same with Wisconsin-Milwaukee, although they seem to keep raising enough money to stay in DI. I agree with you that the Wisconsin legislature is really short-sighted, and don't understand their reasoning at all. I'm not sure why those two teams haven't joined the MVC or Summit to cut down on travel.


Maybe Wisconsin should boast Wisconsin-Milwaukee into something better to help keep instate kids, and attract more kids from out of state? Turn Milwaukee into Wisconsin State, and work on them into an AAU University, and then have them become a Big 10 candidate down the road. Minnesota could do the exact same thing with Mankato State. Those states are going behind on this issue since Texas is trying to raise the image of their schools to be R levels.
10-08-2016 09:31 AM
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NoDak Offline
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Post: #53
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-08-2016 02:23 AM)dxdtdemon Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 11:38 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  CyclonePower,

I'm not saying you're wrong or that Madison does not actually desire to keep the UW schools down in DIII.

But that reasoning is pure bunk. Minnesota provides the perfect counter-example. All of the MN public schools are DII (except god-awful Morris, which should be a private liberal arts college anyway ...), yet the Gophers have never lost a kid they asked to walk-on to a MN public school, initially. Sure, the kid might transfer out if getting passed up on the depth chart.

The real threats they have to worry about (they being Minnesota, Wisconsin) are the FCS Dakota teams, FCS UNI, and NIU (moreso Wisconsin).

Had Wisconsin-Green Bay not made it to March Madness this year, the Wisconsin legislature was going to force them do move down to DII, and has been trying to do the same with Wisconsin-Milwaukee, although they seem to keep raising enough money to stay in DI. I agree with you that the Wisconsin legislature is really short-sighted, and don't understand their reasoning at all. I'm not sure why those two teams haven't joined the MVC or Summit to cut down on travel.

The Summit and MVC would be more travel. Only if Wichita St and Mo St leave would the MVC be less. The Horizon is a bus league now, and leaving it would not cut costs, especially considering entrance and exit fees.

Green Bay, Milwaukee, and Parkside are some of the only UW system schools that don't have football. All three are higher level than the DIII UW system. Either football at DIII, or a higher level classification seems to be the choices for UW system schools.
10-08-2016 02:27 PM
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teamvsn Offline
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Post: #54
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
The Council of Presidents recap suggests that there will be 9 NAIA applicants this year.

http://www.naia.org/fls/27900/1NAIA/memb...M_ID=27900
10-12-2016 04:16 PM
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MWC Tex Online
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-12-2016 04:16 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  The Council of Presidents recap suggests that there will be 9 NAIA applicants this year.

http://www.naia.org/fls/27900/1NAIA/memb...M_ID=27900

Sounds like some interesting changes are going to happen. One that is significant looks like having 1 division for basketball. The other is revising the limits for financial aid... could be some increases in the limits for football and other sports.

Since my college days in the late 80's and early 90's, the NAIA is more organized than ever and looks to be getting much stronger as an organization.

Good to see that they only require 6 sports minimum (3 men and 3 women). That helps the smaller schools and they are able to focus o the main sports (football/soccer, basketball, baseball/softball or track.)
10-12-2016 04:36 PM
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teamvsn Offline
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-12-2016 04:36 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Sounds like some interesting changes are going to happen. One that is significant looks like having 1 division for basketball. The other is revising the limits for financial aid... could be some increases in the limits for football and other sports.

Since my college days in the late 80's and early 90's, the NAIA is more organized than ever and looks to be getting much stronger as an organization.

Good to see that they only require 6 sports minimum (3 men and 3 women). That helps the smaller schools and they are able to focus o the main sports (football/soccer, basketball, baseball/softball or track.)

The sport minimums are actually newish. It used to be that you could have a men's basketball team and women's volleyball (for Title IX purposes) and that'd be it. Pretty rare, because there was no hope of joining a conference like that, but there were a handful.

Combining the divisions has been a topic of conversation and study off and on for many years. I am in favor if they can work out how to keep the fantastic tournament format - 32 (plus?) teams, 7 days, 1 court. It's a great fan experience to sit in the same seat all week and watch all the teams match up and advance before your eyes. There are people that come from all over every year no matter who qualifies. I would love to see 64 teams in that format, although they'd probably have to split the 1st round or two between two courts. But probably they'd do a regional elimination round to get to 32. The scholarship study (I think) goes hand in hand with this, and it's probably not about increasing football scholarships. It's about reconciling basketball DI's 11 scholly limit with DII's 6 scholly limit. Their notes are suggesting that the true gap is narrowing; fewer DI's fully funded, more DII's fully funded. I'd bet that's the biggest obstacle to combining the divisions.
10-12-2016 04:55 PM
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DavidSt Online
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-12-2016 04:16 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  The Council of Presidents recap suggests that there will be 9 NAIA applicants this year.

http://www.naia.org/fls/27900/1NAIA/memb...M_ID=27900


Only three schools that I can think of applying.

Oklahoma Panhandle State
Morthland (seems could be an add to replace Davenport)
University of Fort Lauderdale
10-12-2016 05:31 PM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
DavidSt, I have a weird question for you: Pensacola Christian College, college my sister graduated from is basically a nonprofit institution and a member of the NCCAA refuses to accept any federal student aid of any kind because they believe that federal government would force them to make several changes that they do not want to make. This being said, could they join the NAIA?
10-13-2016 10:52 AM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
I doubt the NCAA or NAIA has any formal rules against institutions that won't accept tuition payments from government tuition assistance programs.

But I also doubt their application would be approved by the member schools.
10-13-2016 10:56 AM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-08-2016 02:23 AM)dxdtdemon Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 11:38 AM)MplsBison Wrote:  CyclonePower,

I'm not saying you're wrong or that Madison does not actually desire to keep the UW schools down in DIII.

But that reasoning is pure bunk. Minnesota provides the perfect counter-example. All of the MN public schools are DII (except god-awful Morris, which should be a private liberal arts college anyway ...), yet the Gophers have never lost a kid they asked to walk-on to a MN public school, initially. Sure, the kid might transfer out if getting passed up on the depth chart.

The real threats they have to worry about (they being Minnesota, Wisconsin) are the FCS Dakota teams, FCS UNI, and NIU (moreso Wisconsin).

Had Wisconsin-Green Bay not made it to March Madness this year, the Wisconsin legislature was going to force them do move down to DII, and has been trying to do the same with Wisconsin-Milwaukee, although they seem to keep raising enough money to stay in DI. I agree with you that the Wisconsin legislature is really short-sighted, and don't understand their reasoning at all. I'm not sure why those two teams haven't joined the MVC or Summit to cut down on travel.

Wisconsin Legislature was not planning on telling GB to drop. It hasn't been trying to force UWM to drop either. I have not heard a peep about the legislature in Wisconsin getting involved in the schools' athletic classifications. GB has had some financial issues, but I haven't heard any serious talk of them dropping down a level. The one school that changed conferences recently was Superior, because it couldn't compete in the WIAC. The other schools were simply too large.

As for GB, it struggles because it is small school in a small market. They draw fairly well if they are successful, but when they stink, the building is empty. As for UWM, they tried to join the MVC, but were turned down. There is war going on between the boosters, the athletic department, and the administration. The AD is a doofus and screwed up the Jeter firing. The President than rejected the AD's choice for a replacement. As a result, most of the team transferred and the major boosters have abandoned the program. In either case, I don't see what joining the Summit would do for them. The conference is more spread out than the Horizon and weak competition would hurt attendance at both schools. As for the MVC, both would gladly join since it would increase revenue. Unfortunately, the MVC doesn't want them.

UW-Stevens Point used to be Wisconsin State. No way they will let UWM take that name.

The WIAC is the best D-3 conference in the country, by far. But, the school are relatively small for public schools. I don't think any of the schools have any desire to move up. Whitewater is the only one that has a chance to be successful at a higher level (it drew 17,000+ last week), but there really is no point. It is in a small town about an hour from Milwaukee. As a D-3 school, it is a sports power and its success have brought it national attention. They do get a few kids who could walk on at UW due to their success (kids want to play and win), but they also lose a few kids who decide to give D1 a try as a walkon. At the d-1 level, Whitewater would struggle and it really doesn't take away any potential walkons at UW.

Parkside is the odd duck. Medium size school in the middle of Kenosha county. Facilities are just okay, not as nice as Whitewater's, for example. They don't play football and they don't really fit with the other WIAC schools. Not big enough and doesn't have the resources to go D1. Hence, the muddle around as the only D2 school in the state. They have been more than competitive at hoops and its probably because Wisconsin produces some pretty good talent and they have no real competition in the area for best non-D1 kids.
10-13-2016 11:40 AM
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