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D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #21
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-04-2016 04:59 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 04:43 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  NAIA due are $7500 yearly, D2 is around $15k if I remember correctly. Conference dues I have not idea about but NAIA states average is around $9500.

http://www.naia.org/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_...=205323010

Thanks, I would be interested in knowing your source. I had been told that D2 fees were around $1000 (with a LOT of expenses elsewhere). When the recent wave of NAIA to D2 migration started a lot of administrators were pumping the simplistic view that NCAA was cheaper simply because their fees were cheaper. But that may have changed...

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/...ctions.pdf

exactly amount yearly is $14,900.
10-04-2016 06:02 PM
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CyclonePower Offline
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Post: #22
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-03-2016 01:07 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  
(10-03-2016 12:45 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Interesting. However, move from D2 to NAIA is not 'dropping' down. NAIA and D2 are pretty much the same. While some D2 school get some NCAA $$, the annual fees wipe most of that out. NAIA fees are much cheaper.
In addition, I found that the most schools in the NAIA and D2 are the same level of competition. NAIA also lets you focus on 6 sports rather than 10.

They only difference in scholarships between the D2 and NAIA is that D2 allow 36 equivalent for football and NAIA allows 24 equivalent

D2 academics are much better. You can recruit some real sketchy academics at NAIAs. Ask Lindendwood how its been going from NAIA powerhouse to D2. They could take chances on lots of players who were D1 talent but couldn't come close academically.
Grandview in Des Moines is notorious for this too. I love watching them play though because they got a few cyclones as coaches.
10-04-2016 06:13 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #23
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
Speaking of DIII: I've long advocated that the WIAC schools should be forced up to DII.

Patently unfair that they get to compete with small private colleges. The Northern Sun schools are who they should be competing against.


Lots of things I want will never happen ...
10-04-2016 06:14 PM
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teamvsn Offline
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Post: #24
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-04-2016 06:02 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 04:59 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 04:43 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  NAIA due are $7500 yearly, D2 is around $15k if I remember correctly. Conference dues I have not idea about but NAIA states average is around $9500.

http://www.naia.org/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_...=205323010

Thanks, I would be interested in knowing your source. I had been told that D2 fees were around $1000 (with a LOT of expenses elsewhere). When the recent wave of NAIA to D2 migration started a lot of administrators were pumping the simplistic view that NCAA was cheaper simply because their fees were cheaper. But that may have changed...

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/...ctions.pdf

exactly amount yearly is $14,900.

We might be talking about different things. That's the application process fee:

"An additional fee of $14,900 for the membership process and NCAA annual dues is required following the first two years of the Division II membership process. An additional $14,900 shall be due every year thereafter until the institution is accepted into active Division II status or withdraws from the Division II membership process."

I was referring to the actual fee paid for membership once membership is attained.
10-04-2016 06:26 PM
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Kittonhead Online
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Post: #25
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
Isn't travel the main consideration for schools at the NAIA/DII level?

Without the revenues they want as tight as footprint as possible.
10-04-2016 06:31 PM
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teamvsn Offline
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Post: #26
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-04-2016 06:31 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Isn't travel the main consideration for schools at the NAIA/DII level?

Without the revenues they want as tight as footprint as possible.

It's a big consideration, but not the only one.
10-04-2016 06:35 PM
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #27
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-04-2016 06:26 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 06:02 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 04:59 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 04:43 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  NAIA due are $7500 yearly, D2 is around $15k if I remember correctly. Conference dues I have not idea about but NAIA states average is around $9500.

http://www.naia.org/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_...=205323010

Thanks, I would be interested in knowing your source. I had been told that D2 fees were around $1000 (with a LOT of expenses elsewhere). When the recent wave of NAIA to D2 migration started a lot of administrators were pumping the simplistic view that NCAA was cheaper simply because their fees were cheaper. But that may have changed...

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/...ctions.pdf

exactly amount yearly is $14,900.

We might be talking about different things. That's the application process fee:

"An additional fee of $14,900 for the membership process and NCAA annual dues is required following the first two years of the Division II membership process. An additional $14,900 shall be due every year thereafter until the institution is accepted into active Division II status or withdraws from the Division II membership process."

I was referring to the actual fee paid for membership once membership is attained.
Sorry you are correct. $900 annual dues for D2.
Saw that d3 is thinking about going to $1800 just like D1
10-04-2016 06:50 PM
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MWC Tex Offline
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Post: #28
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-04-2016 06:35 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 06:31 PM)Kittonhead Wrote:  Isn't travel the main consideration for schools at the NAIA/DII level?

Without the revenues they want as tight as footprint as possible.

It's a big consideration, but not the only one.

One consideration is what conferences are around a school whether NAIA or D2.
10-04-2016 06:53 PM
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CyclonePower Offline
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Post: #29
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-04-2016 06:14 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Speaking of DIII: I've long advocated that the WIAC schools should be forced up to DII.

Patently unfair that they get to compete with small private colleges. The Northern Sun schools are who they should be competing against.


Lots of things I want will never happen ...

i don't know how true this is but I've heard the reason is because Wisconsin at Madison doesn't want that. They rather keep them in D3 with non scholarship players and try to convince Wisconsin talent to try and walk on their football team. They don't want to bump up schools to D2 and risk having a kid go on scholarship to river falls instead of walking on if they think the talent is there.

Again this is coming from my Minnesota state buddies, not sure if that's 100% true.
10-04-2016 08:36 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #30
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-04-2016 05:48 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 05:02 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 04:58 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 03:37 PM)fsquid Wrote:  THere is actually a movement of D2 schools going down to D3. Pfieffer, St. Anselm, Brevard come to mind.


Malone is moving down to D3. They have the largest football stadium in D2.

Dean College moved up from NJCAA to D3 this year.

Source please. They considered it before the G-MAC solidified itself with all those schools from the GLIAC. So I don't believe they are going anywhere. They also considered going back to the NAIA. But the G-MAC is pretty solid now.

Last year they said they were staying in DII

http://www.cantonrep.com/article/2015050.../150509734

Speculation over the Pioneers’ current NCAA status ended recently when the university’s board of trustees unanimously approved Malone’s decision to stay in Division II. The university was considering a drop to NCAA Division III.


The site that I got it from have corrected it to them staying at D2. They need to get the messages out better than they do. It is just like sources are saying so and so when the sources are not correct.
10-05-2016 08:05 AM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #31
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-04-2016 08:36 PM)CyclonePower Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 06:14 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Speaking of DIII: I've long advocated that the WIAC schools should be forced up to DII.

Patently unfair that they get to compete with small private colleges. The Northern Sun schools are who they should be competing against.


Lots of things I want will never happen ...

i don't know how true this is but I've heard the reason is because Wisconsin at Madison doesn't want that. They rather keep them in D3 with non scholarship players and try to convince Wisconsin talent to try and walk on their football team. They don't want to bump up schools to D2 and risk having a kid go on scholarship to river falls instead of walking on if they think the talent is there.

Again this is coming from my Minnesota state buddies, not sure if that's 100% true.


The times have change even though schools at the highest levels want this in the old days, but now, they are looking for a number of schools at D1 and D2 to keep good players in-state instead of going out of state to an enemy schools. It seems there is an arms race in Texas right now between Texas and Texas A&M for how many schools that they can sponsor football in the state at all levels. Texas A&M have three schools right now thinking about adding football. Texas A&M-Central, Texas A&M-San Antonio and Texas A&M-Corpus Christie. Texas has Texas-Tyler, Texas Arlington and some others. Rogers State in Oklahoma is thinking about adding football as well. I think Langston wanted to go to D2, and rejoin the SWAC in the future since they were founding members at one point.

I do think that NAIA and NCAA do a joint effort for football cooperation. Southern Oregon, Eastern Oregon and so forth could be in GNAC as football affiliates. It could ease the cost of travel for all schools involved. The Montanas and Dakotas schools could do better when they are with others at the D2 for football.

NCAA does allow an Independent school as an associate at D3. Apprentice is an affiliate because they are an unusual school that does not meet the types of schools that you see in the NCAA and NAIA.

Former NAIA school that I see that could move to D1 in the future is Azusa Pacific. They have been beating FCS schools when they were in NAIA and beating them now in D2. I might suspect that they could get an invite after 8 years being in D2.
10-05-2016 08:21 AM
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jacksfan29 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
Which FCS schools have they beaten? I glanced at their schedules for the past few years and the only FCS school I saw was Davis who beat them.

Azusa has no place to go. The Big Sky is not going to take them and there are no other FCS conferences in the west. The only way they move up is if the WAC starts up FCS FB which is only possible if some of the southern Big Sky schools move.

(10-05-2016 08:21 AM)DavidSt Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 08:36 PM)CyclonePower Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 06:14 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  Speaking of DIII: I've long advocated that the WIAC schools should be forced up to DII.

Patently unfair that they get to compete with small private colleges. The Northern Sun schools are who they should be competing against.


Lots of things I want will never happen ...

i don't know how true this is but I've heard the reason is because Wisconsin at Madison doesn't want that. They rather keep them in D3 with non scholarship players and try to convince Wisconsin talent to try and walk on their football team. They don't want to bump up schools to D2 and risk having a kid go on scholarship to river falls instead of walking on if they think the talent is there.

Again this is coming from my Minnesota state buddies, not sure if that's 100% true.


The times have change even though schools at the highest levels want this in the old days, but now, they are looking for a number of schools at D1 and D2 to keep good players in-state instead of going out of state to an enemy schools. It seems there is an arms race in Texas right now between Texas and Texas A&M for how many schools that they can sponsor football in the state at all levels. Texas A&M have three schools right now thinking about adding football. Texas A&M-Central, Texas A&M-San Antonio and Texas A&M-Corpus Christie. Texas has Texas-Tyler, Texas Arlington and some others. Rogers State in Oklahoma is thinking about adding football as well. I think Langston wanted to go to D2, and rejoin the SWAC in the future since they were founding members at one point.

I do think that NAIA and NCAA do a joint effort for football cooperation. Southern Oregon, Eastern Oregon and so forth could be in GNAC as football affiliates. It could ease the cost of travel for all schools involved. The Montanas and Dakotas schools could do better when they are with others at the D2 for football.

NCAA does allow an Independent school as an associate at D3. Apprentice is an affiliate because they are an unusual school that does not meet the types of schools that you see in the NCAA and NAIA.

Former NAIA school that I see that could move to D1 in the future is Azusa Pacific. They have been beating FCS schools when they were in NAIA and beating them now in D2. I might suspect that they could get an invite after 8 years being in D2.
10-05-2016 09:13 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #33
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
CyclonePower,

I'm not saying you're wrong or that Madison does not actually desire to keep the UW schools down in DIII.

But that reasoning is pure bunk. Minnesota provides the perfect counter-example. All of the MN public schools are DII (except god-awful Morris, which should be a private liberal arts college anyway ...), yet the Gophers have never lost a kid they asked to walk-on to a MN public school, initially. Sure, the kid might transfer out if getting passed up on the depth chart.

The real threats they have to worry about (they being Minnesota, Wisconsin) are the FCS Dakota teams, FCS UNI, and NIU (moreso Wisconsin).
10-05-2016 11:38 AM
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Fresno St. Alum Offline
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Post: #34
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-04-2016 07:10 AM)MWC Tex Wrote:  
(10-04-2016 02:14 AM)Fresno St. Alum Wrote:  
(10-03-2016 12:45 PM)MWC Tex Wrote:  Interesting. However, move from D2 to NAIA is not 'dropping' down. NAIA and D2 are pretty much the same. While some D2 school get some NCAA $$, the annual fees wipe most of that out. NAIA fees are much cheaper.
In addition, I found that the most schools in the NAIA and D2 are the same level of competition. NAIA also lets you focus on 6 sports rather than 10.

They only difference in scholarships between the D2 and NAIA is that D2 allow 36 equivalent for football and NAIA allows 24 equivalent

The top 25 schools in D-II would disagree w/ you. GVSU (25k) is bigger than Fresno St.(22k). Wayne St., San Francisco St. have around 30K students.

Enrollment doesn't matter, competitively both are quite equal.
No they're not, NAIA top schools have little chance against top D-II schools. bottom feeding D-II school can be beat by top NAIA schools. It's like saying FBS and FCS are equal because Michigan lost to App St. and EMU lost to"enter name fcs school". No, the good FCS teams can beat bottom feeding FBS, and NDSU can beat lots of teams but still are not even close to Bama or anyone else high up. Iowa already lost again, they were exposed and not a real top 25 team. Hell the NAIA doesn't even have a NDSU type. Look at Sioux Falls and Lindenwood who were dominant in the NAIA, they've had rough times in D-II they didn't come in and destroy D-II like NDSU did when moving to FCS. NW Mo St. Minn St. GVSU UNA Valdosta Sts. of the world are the big time programs not the recent move ups from NAIA.

I just checked the current top 25 of D-II. Only 2 schools are former NAIA from 2000 on. APU(2011 move up) and Sioux Falls(2009 move up)
(This post was last modified: 10-05-2016 01:28 PM by Fresno St. Alum.)
10-05-2016 01:05 PM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #35
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
Sioux Falls is a pretty good success story. Also happened upon a great circumstance, where the old NCC was folding and joining up with the old Northern Sun, into the new NSIC.
10-05-2016 01:27 PM
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Rube Dali Offline
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Post: #36
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
I've been speaking with one of the people I follow on twitter(he works for Goshen College) and he told me at least three DIII members from Indiana have been reconsidering their continued membership at that level. At least one, Anderson, was named as a possible leaver. Now, nothing has been decided yet, but I get this feeling there might be more than just 3 DIII schools from Indiana looking to move on.
10-05-2016 01:32 PM
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dbackjon Offline
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Post: #37
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-05-2016 01:32 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  I've been speaking with one of the people I follow on twitter(he works for Goshen College) and he told me at least three DIII members from Indiana have been reconsidering their continued membership at that level. At least one, Anderson, was named as a possible leaver. Now, nothing has been decided yet, but I get this feeling there might be more than just 3 DIII schools from Indiana looking to move on.


Upwards to DII, or to NAIA/or one of the other ones like NCCAA?
10-05-2016 02:36 PM
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Rube Dali Offline
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Post: #38
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-05-2016 02:36 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 01:32 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  I've been speaking with one of the people I follow on twitter(he works for Goshen College) and he told me at least three DIII members from Indiana have been reconsidering their continued membership at that level. At least one, Anderson, was named as a possible leaver. Now, nothing has been decided yet, but I get this feeling there might be more than just 3 DIII schools from Indiana looking to move on.


Upwards to DII, or to NAIA/or one of the other ones like NCCAA?

It appears that this movement would be back to the NAIA, not to DII.

Speaking of the NAIA, it is moving the xcountry championships out of Charlotte this fall. And the NJCAA has stripped Kinston, NC of the DIII Baseball World Series for next spring.
10-05-2016 03:02 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #39
RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-05-2016 01:32 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  I've been speaking with one of the people I follow on twitter(he works for Goshen College) and he told me at least three DIII members from Indiana have been reconsidering their continued membership at that level. At least one, Anderson, was named as a possible leaver. Now, nothing has been decided yet, but I get this feeling there might be more than just 3 DIII schools from Indiana looking to move on.

If Anderson is involved I assume that the other two are also fairly religious institutions. NAIA has the Crossroads Conference which is Indiana centric and includes a lot of conservative faith based institutions. They may see moving to a conference of more likeminded institutions as a huge positive.
10-05-2016 04:59 PM
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RE: D-II/D-III/NAIA movement
(10-05-2016 02:36 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(10-05-2016 01:32 PM)Rube Dali Wrote:  I've been speaking with one of the people I follow on twitter(he works for Goshen College) and he told me at least three DIII members from Indiana have been reconsidering their continued membership at that level. At least one, Anderson, was named as a possible leaver. Now, nothing has been decided yet, but I get this feeling there might be more than just 3 DIII schools from Indiana looking to move on.


Upwards to DII, or to NAIA/or one of the other ones like NCCAA?

Definitely not upwards IMO. What's the benefit? All 10 of Indiana's D-3 schools are too small to have upward ambitions.
10-05-2016 05:00 PM
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