I never understood why folks don't use real names or nicknames on message boards. Why the anonymity? Why hide if you're open with ideas? I use my nickname.

My guess is the tournament will be moved because no president is going to be stuck with the stigma of being politically incorrect. Spartanburg here we come.

(09-18-2016 08:46 AM)ETSUfan1 Wrote:  My guess is the tournament will be moved because no president is going to be stuck with the stigma of being politically incorrect. Spartanburg here we come.

Just until the next controversial subject. At this rate, future tournaments will have to be played in California just to apease the masses.

Let's also all recognize the fact that HB2 is more than bathrooms. Read the entire thing. Anyone that thinks local government should have say in their local ordinances should take serious issue with HB2. Basically, the state says that a city cannot pass an ordinance that goes above and beyond the state. Say a town in NC thinks their local economy can handle a $20an hour minimum wage. The businesses are on board, the whole town thinks its a fantastic idea. Nope, can't do it. State law says they can't have a higher minimum wage than anywhere in the rest of the state.

It was backlash because Charlotte NC wanted to be more inclusive and state level politicians got their knickers in a bunch.

There is blatant discrimination against all kinds of people given the ok under HB2. The bathroom issue is but a fraction of the problem.

And why I use a nickname? Mostly habit. I do have friend that I met online that actually call me my nickname or variations of it, even though they know my real name.

I post public comments on local media Facebook pages. I'd be glad to send folks screenshots the horrible things that have been sent to me. And these are from people I don't personally attack or anything. I've been called fat fag hag and much worse.

I'm a mom with a 20year old son that came out earlier this year. (not a big surprise to us, but he made it official.) I am the mama bear who will defend the rights and safety of my children all day, every day if I must. If you knew my son and the wonderful person he is, you would probably question your views on homosexuality.

(09-18-2016 09:31 AM)queenladybug817 Wrote:  Let's also all recognize the fact that HB2 is more than bathrooms. Read the entire thing. Anyone that thinks local government should have say in their local ordinances should take serious issue with HB2. Basically, the state says that a city cannot pass an ordinance that goes above and beyond the state. Say a town in NC thinks their local economy can handle a $20an hour minimum wage. The businesses are on board, the whole town thinks its a fantastic idea. Nope, can't do it. State law says they can't have a higher minimum wage than anywhere in the rest of the state.

It was backlash because Charlotte NC wanted to be more inclusive and state level politicians got their knickers in a bunch.

There is blatant discrimination against all kinds of people given the ok under HB2. The bathroom issue is but a fraction of the problem.

Agree 100 per cent.

(09-17-2016 10:48 PM)swvabucsfan Wrote:  

(09-17-2016 09:09 AM)Bucfaithful Wrote:  I applaud these organizations for pulling their business out of NC.

Agreed.

The bathroom laws are a "solution" in search of a problem. Unnecessary and unenforceable - nobody's really going to post inspectors at bathroom doors, are they? So at bottom, just a way of stigmatizing people that some folks don't like, and playing on people's fears.

You are absolutely right. Bathroom laws are a "solution" in search of a problem. But, you're applying the standard to the wrong law. The NC law was a response to the Charlotte law, and the Charlotte law was definitely a solution in search of a problem. Was Charlotte having a problem with transgender people not being able to use the bathroom of their choice? I haven't seen, read, or heard any evidence of it. Have you?

And, you are absolutely wrong. The NC legislature wasn't searching for a problem -- because the Charlotte law certainly created one: Men having an unconditional, legally-protected right to be in the bathrooms, showers, and locker rooms previously restricted to women and young girls.

You are not concerned about a danger to women and young girls if true transgenders use the bathroom of their choice. I'm not either. On the other hand, I am very concerned about the problems caused when a city passes a law which gives men an unfettered legal right to be in the women's bathrooms and shower areas.

What happens when a mother with young daughters complains to a store manager about the large, bearded man hanging around inside the women's bathroom? Those who applaud the Charlotte law will brand her as a bigot or say she is "stigmatizing people that some folks don't like, and playing on people's fears."

The NCAA is hypocritical and dead wrong, but some people sit so high in their moral superiority perches, they can't see the real and justifiable concerns of ordinary people on the ground.

We will not be playing in Charleston because they once had a slave market there. We must boycott. What a weak and sensitive society we have become.

I wish you weren't, but you are incorrect in saying the initial ordinance put in place by Charlotte was also a solution in search of a problem. Perhaps you are unaware at how awful transgender people are treated everywhere, to include Charlotte? By far, transgender people are harassed, attacked, raped and murdered, often over simple bathroom use, every single day, all over the country. Outside of bathrooms, both homosexual and transgender people can still be fired, just for being themselves, in most locations. Basically, my son could get a job in NC (or many other states) and be a model employee. However, his employer, who can't stand gay people, finds out he is gay, and can just fire him because of that. Sexual orientation and gender identity are not protected classes like gender and race. My transgender friend, who lives in NC, is underemployed, because many people just will not hire a transgender woman, during transition. Charlotte NC saw the problem and put out a very comprehensive ordinance to help protect the rights of LGTBQ people. At the state level, NC didn't like it and retaliated.

In addition to my son, I have three daughters ages 13, 13 and 17. I will ask you to understand that I have a large stake in the safety of women and girls because of that. I think laws restricting bathrooms to some concept of birth gender or what's on birth certificate are ways to use the guise of safety for women and girls, in a way to discriminate against transgender people. The safety line is a nice load of BS. This is not how you create safe bathrooms. For one, it's IMPOSSIBLE to enforce. I'd love for someone to tell me, other than a potty guard at all public restrooms, how do you plan to enforce something so insane? And then what criteria is used to decide who is allowed where. A transgender man (born female, but now looks completely male, at least until you have them drop their drawers) is going to look really out of place in the women's restroom. And who's to say that person that looks like a man to everyone around them is really truly transgender? Why can't some random man just go in the women's restroom in NC and say, well I was born man, so the law says I must be in here? Does the security guard do a genital check? How far are you willing to go to enforce this?

What about some poor lady who isn't transgender? She likes to keep her hair short and is built a bit more manly. Maybe she dresses in clothes that are kind of manly. Is someone going to harass her in the bathroom saying she doesn't belong? HB2 has given people free reign to bother anyone that doesn't fit their mold of what a specific gender looks like.

To think bathrooms were safe for women at any point, is very naïve. Before these laws, my mother taught me to always pay attention when going to a public restroom and think in terms of my own safety. I've passed along those guidelines to my children, no matter their gender or sexual orientation. Situational awareness, EVERYWHERE. There is no magic force field on the women's bathroom door to prevent a man from following me into a secluded restroom when I'm alone.

And then the premise that only men do harm is insane to me. There are women that molest and attack children too. And if these men in public restrooms are so horrible and would do so much wrong to the women and girls, why is it ok to send young boys into the men's room with them? I was more concerned sending my son to the restroom alone when he was 10-12 years old than I was with my girls. If I was out with the kids alone, I could go with the girls into the restroom, but taking an 8-12 year old boy into the women's restroom is considered inappropriate by many, so he had to go into the men's room alone.

Look at the ENTIRE picture here. If it's really about bathroom safety, then there are plenty of things that can be done that doesn't discriminate against people. But no one cared about that until the whole idea of letting transgender people outright legally use the restrooms that they feel the most comfortable using (with legal protections if they are harassed or attacked). The idea that gender isn't binary is uncomfortable for people. I get that. But to use that discomfort to be a jerk is a whole different story.

I'm not going to brand people bigots for their concerns. But I do want people to see all sides and realize that there are solutions that address safety for everyone. There are valid safety concerns, but NC isn't fixing anything, with that one part of HB2.

What a ridiculous conversation that we have to move events because a tiny part of the population want to piss in the opposite bathroom

(09-18-2016 11:41 AM)ETSUAlumni Wrote:  We will not be playing in Charleston because they once had a slave market there. We must boycott. What a weak and sensitive society we have become.

A historical event, vs an active law. Yeah, apples and oranges dude.

Yes, there are people that might say that, but I really hope you see the difference between the two situations. Slavery is currently illegal in this country. Discrimination because of gender identity and sexual orientation is apparently not illegal in NC. (not to mention other places too)

It's not discrimination. It's simple. If you were born a male you use male restrooms. Pretty cut and dry and common sense

(09-18-2016 11:46 AM)ETSUAlumni Wrote:  What a ridiculous conversation that we have to move events because a tiny part of the population want to piss in the opposite bathroom

Did you think it was ridiculous for schools to have conversations back in the civil rights era on how different locations treated people based on race?

And again, HB2 isn't only about where people use the restroom. It's much bigger and affects a LOT more people than many realize.

Heck, crap like HB2 affects my own comfort level in traveling in NC with my son and his boyfriend. You think it's no big deal that we could be denied a hotel room or other services because my son is gay?

I'm not sure I have the patience to even attempt explaining how your logic doesn't work.

I'd love for you to just tell me how you plan to know if a person was born male or born female without a doubt, without massive privacy violations.

So by your logic of tj cromer thinks he's a girl he should be able to play women's basketball

Then don't travel to North carolina

(09-18-2016 12:02 PM)ETSUAlumni Wrote:  So by your logic of tj cromer thinks he's a girl he should be able to play women's basketball

If TJ began to take hormones and transition, then I think it should be a consideration. Many studies are being done about the affects of muscle structure and other physical characteristics of persons during the transition process.

The problem is that it's not as clean cut and simple as you seem to want to make it. And you are still comparing apples and oranges. Discrimination with regard to employment and bathrooms, is not the same as rules that govern athletic competition. I think the NCAA and other "rule makers" with regard to athletics are going to need to start doing a lot of research on how to handle it all. There is not going to be a simple quick solution.

But again, I'd like to know how you want to enforce the bathroom rule of HB2? You seem to think it's simple.

(09-18-2016 12:05 PM)ETSUAlumni Wrote:  Then don't travel to North carolina

While that is an ignorant "solution", sure, I'll go down your rabbit hole.

What about my transgender friend in NC? She can't afford to just pick up and move to a more transgender friendly state, plus her entire support system lives there. I can just "not travel to NC", but what about the LGTBQ people that live there? What about their friends and family? Should they just accept it and make plans to leave? Or should they stand their ground and refuse to let their state be seen as a place where open discrimination is fine?

(09-18-2016 11:42 AM)queenladybug817 Wrote:  I wish you weren't, but you are incorrect in saying the initial ordinance put in place by Charlotte was also a solution in search of a problem. Perhaps you are unaware at how awful transgender people are treated everywhere, to include Charlotte? By far, transgender people are harassed, attacked, raped and murdered, often over simple bathroom use, every single day, all over the country . . .

. . . I think laws restricting bathrooms to some concept of birth gender or what's on birth certificate are ways to use the guise of safety for women and girls, in a way to discriminate against transgender people. The safety line is a nice load of BS. This is not how you create safe bathrooms. For one, it's IMPOSSIBLE to enforce. I'd love for someone to tell me, other than a potty guard at all public restrooms, how do you plan to enforce something so insane? And then what criteria is used to decide who is allowed where . . .

. . . To think bathrooms were safe for women at any point, is very naïve. Before these laws, my mother taught me to always pay attention when going to a public restroom and think in terms of my own safety. I've passed along those guidelines to my children, no matter their gender or sexual orientation. Situational awareness, EVERYWHERE. There is no magic force field on the women's bathroom door to prevent a man from following me into a secluded restroom when I'm alone . . .

. . . Look at the ENTIRE picture here. If it's really about bathroom safety, then there are plenty of things that can be done that doesn't discriminate against people . . . I'm not going to brand people bigots for their concerns. But I do want people to see all sides and realize that there are solutions that address safety for everyone. There are valid safety concerns, but NC isn't fixing anything, with that one part of HB2.

Let's be clear. This entire kerfuffle is about the transgender bathroom clause. Did Charlotte have a problem with transgender people being denied the right to use the bathroom of their choice? I can't find any evidence to support that assertion.

But, let's say that Charlotte had a well-documented problem with transgender people being kept out of their bathroom of choice. Are there legitimate concerns with the Charlotte law? Maybe you don't have a problem with men having a legal right to shower with your daughters, but I don't think those who object are simply pushing "a nice load of BS." (And I find it amusing that you claim the Charlotte law is needed to protect transgender people by arguing that my concerns are invalid because laws can't keep us safe anyway.)

You say there are plenty of things we can do that protect people and maintain safety. Let's start with the most basic thing. How would you legally define someone as transgender?

My daughters, you, me, anyone - shouldn't have to shower WITH anyone (unless that is by choice). There should be no such thing as open showers. That concept is one of the most insane things I can imagine. Why should little boys have to shower with grown men? The concept goes both ways here and people forget that.

First and foremost, the best way to address this whole bathroom "kerfuffle" is to look into what makes restrooms and locker rooms the following - Safe, Private and Accessible. Address those, without discrimination and both sides win. Bathrooms should be in well light, well trafficked areas. Locks should always work. There should be floor to ceiling dividers between stalls, if not full walls. Best are individual bathrooms with solid doors and locks. Private, well that gets covered by the dividers between stalls or individual unisex bathrooms. Accessible - meet or exceed all ADA standards. Make bathrooms work for parents with young children who need diaper changes. Think about adults who need to accompany other adults to the restroom, such as those with handicaps or elderly. (If my dad is out with my mom, and she is having physical difficulty of varying sorts, he should have an option for going into the restroom to help her.)

All of those address the safety issue of bathrooms without discriminating against any specific people. NC could have gone that route with regard to bathrooms, but they choose some very unenforceable standard of what's on a person's birth certificate. Well, that might lead to someone that looks outwardly like a man in the women's bathroom, but their birth certificate says female, so.... How can we enforce NC's law without violating the privacy of everyone using the restroom. Do I have to "prove" I'm female to go in? Drop my pants? Show ID? If a transgender person "passes" for female in looks, is that ok? What about a female, born female and identifies as such, but looks kinda manly? Who makes this call? What standard is used? How do you know that man with the beard in the restroom is or isn't a born female that has transitioned?

As for you wanting a legal definition of transgender - well the medical definition is relating to, or being a person who identifies with or expresses a gender identity that differs from the one which corresponds to the person's sex at birth. I can go even further with you into the science that is showing more and more about gender and gender identity than previously known. It's not just physical genitals. It's not just chromosomes. There are many, many other factors that come into play in determining our gender identity. Why is it that most women aren't big sports fans and men are, but then you have women like me that enjoys sports more than my husband? (And not because I was raised that way all that much. Outside of KY basketball, my family didn't watch sports much.)