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OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
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BePcr07 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
(06-14-2016 11:03 AM)goofus Wrote:  
(06-14-2016 09:06 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(06-14-2016 08:44 AM)goofus Wrote:  
(06-14-2016 08:22 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  Las Vegas, Seattle, and Quebec City have been the most popular cities for expansion or relocation. I remember seeing a story on Toronto considering a second team.

I don't think they should expand unless the talent pool is there. Adding teams just add teams is pointless without the players. If teams stink, no one will care.

I have never understood the talent pool argument. The number of teams the market can handle determines the level of talent in the league, not the other way around.

The population as a whole keeps growing, so if they never expanded, the level of talent would be relatively higher compared to years ago.

Baseball got kind of sloppy for a while with inadequate pitching when they expanding too quickly in the late 60s/70s. The quality of play in basketball went down for a while in that same era with the ABA forming and the NBA expanding rapidly. So the product isn't as good and serious fans notice.

I don't buy it. It's not like they brought in random people off the street to fill those spots. The adult population in the 60's and 70's grew rapidly from the baby boom that started in 1946, plus MLB added black players in the 50's that arguably added even more talent. You could argue that expansion in the 60's and 70's got Talent back in sync with previous eras.

But ultimately who cares. People argue today there are not 32 QB'S worthy of starting in the NFL. That's nonsense. There are 32 QB's worthy of starting in the NFL because there are 32 teams in the NFL. Plain and simple.

You do make some good arguments, but, personally, I just don't see it. Just because there are 1,000 NFL teams, doesn't mean there are 1,000 QB's worthy of starting. There may be 1,000 QB's who could start, but the "talent pool" argument says the disparity between #1 and #1,000 is far too great. I think 32 is a good number, especially given the expanding population. I'm also impressed with the NHL holding off on expansion since 2000. It says they are being wise in their decisions.

The MLS could definitely be the #4 pro sports league in the US soon. They did a great job maintaining their identity and didn't balloon too quickly. However, lately they have expanded and announced future expansion at an alarming rate. They went back and forth between 10 and 12 teams for their first decade. In the last 10 years we have seen a net of 10 additional teams. There are set plans for 4 more which would make 24. The commissioner has said 28 is the goal. I am worried about the talent pool here as well.
06-14-2016 01:29 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #22
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
(06-14-2016 12:31 PM)MplsBison Wrote:  $500M for a hockey team??? Sorry, but hockey either already is or it will be the #5 pro sport, once MLS really gets going (might take some time).


C2,

For football, talent doesn't matter so long as the teams are even. You can argue that a QB alone creates enough of a disparity, when everything else is even.

If the Pro-Bowl was played mid-season, and gave some type of advantage to the conference of the winner ... I still say it wouldn't get greater ratings than a regular season game. People care about the team more than anything, in football.

Even football has a limit, look at the caliber of athletes for P5 schools and the caliber for non-P5's in general.

Baseball is the most immune, as it is the game where size matters the least, which is why they have no problem taking steroids and shrinking their size. Joking aside, baseball players don't have to be large and it is the game that has changed the least over the decades, thus it is timeless in the type of player needed to play it. But even they have a limit in how many can be Major Leaguers realistically or else we'd see very few players promoted from the minors each year. Basketball is by far the worst.

Some other things I want to address: Las Vegas, more than any other market, needs a glamour team. Even if it's a college sports team, look at UNLV under Tark. That's why they need a team like the Raiders or Lakers, which has the added bonus of having an LA connection. Vegas is a colony of SoCal.

And this isn't just a Vegas issue but places like Miami, which should have no pro sports teams and even a place like Dallas needs the right team or no team at all. You can't just look at a spreadsheet and look at numbers and statistics, you have to analyze. I think Florida, beyond the small loyal/built-in fan bases they have, should have zero pro sports teams, especially the Jaguars and Heat as well as in baseball. Even the Bucs, which has great fans, struggles at the gate with some of lowest attendance in the NFL (unless something has changed). The Cardinals probably shouldn't be in Arizona and especially before they built UoPS.
06-14-2016 01:46 PM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #23
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
(06-14-2016 01:29 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  The MLS could definitely be the #4 pro sports league in the US soon. They did a great job maintaining their identity and didn't balloon too quickly. However, lately they have expanded and announced future expansion at an alarming rate. They went back and forth between 10 and 12 teams for their first decade. In the last 10 years we have seen a net of 10 additional teams. There are set plans for 4 more which would make 24. The commissioner has said 28 is the goal. I am worried about the talent pool here as well.

The WNBA expanded too quickly and it has suffered as a result. Even the best franchise in league history is now defunct. With relative niche sports, you have to ease them in slowly to the public beyond the target audience.
06-14-2016 01:56 PM
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goofus Offline
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Post: #24
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

Soon it will be official. NHL expanding to Las Vegas
06-14-2016 02:51 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #25
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
(06-14-2016 01:29 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  The MLS could definitely be the #4 pro sports league in the US soon. They did a great job maintaining their identity and didn't balloon too quickly. However, lately they have expanded and announced future expansion at an alarming rate. They went back and forth between 10 and 12 teams for their first decade. In the last 10 years we have seen a net of 10 additional teams. There are set plans for 4 more which would make 24. The commissioner has said 28 is the goal. I am worried about the talent pool here as well.

MLS and US Soccer want to use MLS to help grow the sport in different areas all over the U.S. Not only by giving young players a visible pro team in their backyard, but also networking each MLS team with local development programs for young players. The talent pool isn't a problem for them; it's more than large enough to accommodate more teams. Attracting enough talent from that pool based on the limited salaries paid to non-star players is a problem. You can't build and sustain rosters full of "Major League" soccer talent by paying only minor-league baseball salaries. But that issue is not tied to the number of teams in MLS.
06-14-2016 03:21 PM
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Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Offline
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Post: #26
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
My best friend, his son and my son like soccer so we go to a few MLS games each year - I would say 3-5 per year. We live in Pittsburgh so the games we go to are mostly in Chester, PA and more often in Columbus, OH. We've also been to a few DC United games over the years.

I really enjoy international soccer – I love the World Cup. However, you would have a hard time convincing me that MLS is ever going to be a bigger deal than the NHL - at least in those markets. That's not going to happen in my lifetime. It's just not at the same level and still feels a bit like a minor-league baseball game.

We also attend a lot of NHL games in Pittsburgh and elsewhere. There is no way that you can tell me that Philadelphians care more about their soccer team than they do their hockey team. That's just not true and it is not even close. Temple has a more passionate following than the Union.

Going to a Columbus Blue Jackets game is actually a lot of fun. That is an outstanding arena an me the bar area around it – the arena district – is the envy of most other NHL or NBA cities. They really did a nice job conceiving and executing that whole area. If you are a hockey fan and you are looking to make a road trip, you could do a lot worse than Columbus. It is a very underrated city - the nicest in Ohio, IMO - and that arena and the area around it is a lot of fun, but only if you like having a few cold ones with your friends a few steps from the arena.

For a fan base that has never been given much of anything, those CBJ fans have remained very passionate. If that team ever actually starts to win, I think that could turn into an outstanding mid-sized hockey market.

It's the same story in Washington, DC. The United games that we've been to have been atrocious atmospherically - so much so that we basically cut them out of the rotation. However, the Washington Capitals games are a blast. I have on occasion gone down to watch the Caps play my beloved Penguins and we have always had a good time. Again, that arena is located in a really cool part of Washington, DC. Also, I have to say that the Washington fans are so much more civil than their counterparts in Philadelphia.

I can only presume that I was Rodney Dangerfield who came up with the nickname, "The city of brotherly love."
(This post was last modified: 06-14-2016 05:16 PM by Dr. Isaly von Yinzer.)
06-14-2016 05:12 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #27
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
(06-14-2016 01:29 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  The MLS could definitely be the #4 pro sports league in the US soon. They did a great job maintaining their identity and didn't balloon too quickly. However, lately they have expanded and announced future expansion at an alarming rate. They went back and forth between 10 and 12 teams for their first decade. In the last 10 years we have seen a net of 10 additional teams. There are set plans for 4 more which would make 24. The commissioner has said 28 is the goal. I am worried about the talent pool here as well.

I don't. Soccer fans should be happy that after telling everyone for 30 years that the beautiful game would take over the US that it has finally found a following. But they purposely conflate MLS with the fandom for International Football an no one is fooled.
06-15-2016 08:35 AM
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ClairtonPanther Offline
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Post: #28
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
(06-15-2016 08:35 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-14-2016 01:29 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  The MLS could definitely be the #4 pro sports league in the US soon. They did a great job maintaining their identity and didn't balloon too quickly. However, lately they have expanded and announced future expansion at an alarming rate. They went back and forth between 10 and 12 teams for their first decade. In the last 10 years we have seen a net of 10 additional teams. There are set plans for 4 more which would make 24. The commissioner has said 28 is the goal. I am worried about the talent pool here as well.

I don't. Soccer fans should be happy that after telling everyone for 30 years that the beautiful game would take over the US that it has finally found a following. But they purposely conflate MLS with the fandom for International Football an no one is fooled.

I'm not the biggest soccer fan but I think the MLS could at least enter the same type of prestige as the NHL & NBA at some point, in terms of popularity here. It's TV deal tripled a year ago and I suspect that it could double that the next TV deal in 2022. Currently each squad gets 4.5m via TV revenue.
06-15-2016 09:10 AM
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ClairtonPanther Offline
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Post: #29
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
I'd have to say that Portland, Oregon is surprisingly a strong hockey market, despite not having a team of their own.
06-15-2016 09:11 AM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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Post: #30
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
(06-15-2016 08:35 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(06-14-2016 01:29 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  The MLS could definitely be the #4 pro sports league in the US soon. They did a great job maintaining their identity and didn't balloon too quickly. However, lately they have expanded and announced future expansion at an alarming rate. They went back and forth between 10 and 12 teams for their first decade. In the last 10 years we have seen a net of 10 additional teams. There are set plans for 4 more which would make 24. The commissioner has said 28 is the goal. I am worried about the talent pool here as well.

I don't. Soccer fans should be happy that after telling everyone for 30 years that the beautiful game would take over the US that it has finally found a following. But they purposely conflate MLS with the fandom for International Football an no one is fooled.

I think the only way that MLS can really break through to the next tier is if it removes salary cap restrictions and allows teams to legitimately start competing for elite players that are currently playing the top European leagues. The salary cap might be good for cost control on a team-by-team basis, but it also acts as a talent cap on a league-wide basis. In MLB, NBA and NHL, the very best players in the world in their respective sports come here to the United States. That isn't happening in soccer, and as righteous Americans (halfway tongue in cheek there), we are accustomed to only paying attention to the best of the best.

It's a very good point about interest in International Football - we can't and shouldn't equate interest in the English Premier League and the U.S. national teams with interest with MLS for soccer, just as we shouldn't equate interest in SEC and Big Ten football with interest in MAC football. They might be playing the same sport, but they are in completely different universes in terms of financial backing and overall talent.

I'll also throw this out here: we've talked a lot about the NFL looking to expand to London, but what if the English Premier League decided to expand *here* in the United States? Heck, what if the top 2 or 3 teams from MLS get promoted to the EPL every year? There isn't any talk about that now, but with the money exploding the EPL and how they're seeing interest in the US taking off, who knows what the possibilities might be. That outside force would likely have a much greater impact on the overall popularity of pro soccer here. We (as Americans) need to be watching the best of the best in a particular sport in order for it to get to that NFL/MLB/NBA/NHL tier.
(This post was last modified: 06-15-2016 09:30 AM by Frank the Tank.)
06-15-2016 09:27 AM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
(06-15-2016 09:27 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  I'll also throw this out here: we've talked a lot about the NFL looking to expand to London, but what if the English Premier League decided to expand *here* in the United States? Heck, what if the top 2 or 3 teams from MLS get promoted to the EPL every year? There isn't any talk about that now, but with the money exploding the EPL and how they're seeing interest in the US taking off, who knows what the possibilities might be. That outside force would likely have a much greater impact on the overall popularity of pro soccer here. We (as Americans) need to be watching the best of the best in a particular sport in order for it to get to that NFL/MLB/NBA/NHL tier.

EPL expansion stateside is even more challenged than the NFL to London IMO. There just isn't an expeditious way to move teams back and forth across the pond and not have that travel affect performance.
06-15-2016 12:23 PM
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JHG722 Offline
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Post: #32
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
(06-14-2016 05:12 PM)Dr. Isaly von Yinzer Wrote:  My best friend, his son and my son like soccer so we go to a few MLS games each year - I would say 3-5 per year. We live in Pittsburgh so the games we go to are mostly in Chester, PA and more often in Columbus, OH. We've also been to a few DC United games over the years.

I really enjoy international soccer – I love the World Cup. However, you would have a hard time convincing me that MLS is ever going to be a bigger deal than the NHL - at least in those markets. That's not going to happen in my lifetime. It's just not at the same level and still feels a bit like a minor-league baseball game.

We also attend a lot of NHL games in Pittsburgh and elsewhere. There is no way that you can tell me that Philadelphians care more about their soccer team than they do their hockey team. That's just not true and it is not even close. Temple has a more passionate following than the Union.

Going to a Columbus Blue Jackets game is actually a lot of fun. That is an outstanding arena an me the bar area around it – the arena district – is the envy of most other NHL or NBA cities. They really did a nice job conceiving and executing that whole area. If you are a hockey fan and you are looking to make a road trip, you could do a lot worse than Columbus. It is a very underrated city - the nicest in Ohio, IMO - and that arena and the area around it is a lot of fun, but only if you like having a few cold ones with your friends a few steps from the arena.

For a fan base that has never been given much of anything, those CBJ fans have remained very passionate. If that team ever actually starts to win, I think that could turn into an outstanding mid-sized hockey market.

It's the same story in Washington, DC. The United games that we've been to have been atrocious atmospherically - so much so that we basically cut them out of the rotation. However, the Washington Capitals games are a blast. I have on occasion gone down to watch the Caps play my beloved Penguins and we have always had a good time. Again, that arena is located in a really cool part of Washington, DC. Also, I have to say that the Washington fans are so much more civil than their counterparts in Philadelphia.

I can only presume that I was Rodney Dangerfield who came up with the nickname, "The city of brotherly love."

Shockingly, more garbage from you.
06-15-2016 05:24 PM
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GhentFan Offline
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Post: #33
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
The NHL was the last league I thought that would expand.
I've figured they would fold a team or two long before they expanded.
And to Vegas? I think another team in Canada would do far better. Just my opinion.
06-17-2016 05:31 AM
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QuestionSocratic Offline
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Post: #34
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
(06-17-2016 05:31 AM)GhentFan Wrote:  The NHL was the last league I thought that would expand.
I've figured they would fold a team or two long before they expanded.
And to Vegas? I think another team in Canada would do far better. Just my opinion.

The casinos will buy plenty of season tickets to be used to comp guests, to financially support the team. Now whether they can give the tickets away to fill the arena is another story.
06-17-2016 09:22 AM
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Post: #35
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
Unless the team wins at a high level consistently, this is gonna bomb huge.
06-17-2016 10:08 PM
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GhentFan Offline
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Post: #36
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
(06-17-2016 09:22 AM)QuestionSocratic Wrote:  
(06-17-2016 05:31 AM)GhentFan Wrote:  The NHL was the last league I thought that would expand.
I've figured they would fold a team or two long before they expanded.
And to Vegas? I think another team in Canada would do far better. Just my opinion.

The casinos will buy plenty of season tickets to be used to comp guests, to financially support the team. Now whether they can give the tickets away to fill the arena is another story.

How many people in Vegas care about Hockey?
Lots of tourists, but not a lot of people to care about the team. While I think it might do better than Phoenix, the support for a team in Canada or as others have mentioned; Seattle would do much better in the fan base caring about the team, buying merchandise etc... Given Wisconsin's ability to support a major team in "small towns" put a team in Madison.

20 years from now I'm sure there will be talks about relocating due to lack of interest/support.

I still hold the belief that the NHL should be reducing it's numbers not increasing them.
06-18-2016 08:34 AM
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MplsBison Offline
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Post: #37
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
I predict the Las Vegas franchise will do very well.

This will lead to the NHL expanding to 64 teams. Take that, C2 !! 04-cheers
(This post was last modified: 06-18-2016 09:41 AM by MplsBison.)
06-18-2016 09:41 AM
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_C2_ Offline
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Post: #38
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
GhentFan was being polite, I predict no more than 10 years unless they win big. And being an expansion team, it'll take them at least 3 years to get reasonably competitive.
06-18-2016 05:27 PM
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adcorbett Offline
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Post: #39
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
The one good thing they have going, is they did not build the arena with the assumption that NHL team specifically was needed to ensure its economic feasibility.
06-19-2016 01:30 PM
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Post: #40
RE: OT: Next up on the expansion train - the NHL
The only franchises that can be viable in Vegas are the Dodgers, Angels, Lakers, Clippers, Raiders, Niners, Chargers, Cowboys, Rams and maybe the Padres, most of which have a Southern California connection (I excluded the Packers since they will fold before moving anywhere).

Vegas is not a traditional market with a traditional workforce and with lots of transplants, especially from SoCal. A team needs to be flashy and bring out the sociallites or be a team from where many Vegas residents are from (or visiting from) or else it won't be there long.
06-19-2016 06:44 PM
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