(04-25-2016 12:43 PM)lance99 Wrote:  Update: http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/mi.../83493156/

Reads like a reporter who covers college education and not sports; you can tell by the stilted cadence when the story gets into sports terminology*—it's absolutely written by somebody who doesn't deal with sports as a part of their job.

Plus the reporter either doesn't understand what Division I athletics are or presumes too much by saying that the report recommends Eastern Michigan drop out of D1 entirely, when the part of the report he immediately quotes talks about joining the (solidly D1) Horizon League and spends more time on that topic than the possibility of going D2 or D3.

That said, it's telling that some students are behind dropping football. Faculty being anti-football is no surprise; given their druthers, a large portion of faculty would drop sports outright, whether they're at a D3 liberal arts college or an SEC powerhouse. But students usually support athletics unless it's a real drain, which it appears to be here.

* — you can also click on his byline and see that he's the paper's higher ed reporter, but that way's not as fun.

If EMU is determined to move their football down to FCS I could see them moving football to the Pioneer league, and moving the rest of their Olympics to the Horizon league.

(04-25-2016 01:16 PM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  If EMU is determined to move their football down to FCS I could see them moving football to the Pioneer league, and moving the rest of their Olympics to the Horizon league.

Would the Pioneer League take them?

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/mi.../83493156/

Faculty and student reports suggests dropping football at EMU and looking at the Horizon League.

There's really no sense for an Eastern Michigan to drop football to FCS. Its drop completely or stay FBS.

Maybe for Idaho or ULM which aren't urban schools and have some potential (maybe more) FCS rivals, there may be some justification to FCS, but not EMU.

(04-25-2016 01:26 PM)lance99 Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 01:16 PM)Blue_Trombone Wrote:  If EMU is determined to move their football down to FCS I could see them moving football to the Pioneer league, and moving the rest of their Olympics to the Horizon league.

Would the Pioneer League take them?

I personally think so. They're at 11 right now. Travel would actually be worse for EMU seeing how the league has members in San Diego, Florida, the Carolinas, etc. But it's a non-scholarship league so EMU would probably save money in the long run. The MVFC would probably be the best cultural fit for EMU, but I don't know if the MVFC would take them.

I think now would be the time for EMU's fans to start making some noise if they want to keep the program

(04-25-2016 01:35 PM)bullet Wrote:  There's really no sense for an Eastern Michigan to drop football to FCS. Its drop completely or stay FBS.

Maybe for Idaho or ULM which aren't urban schools and have some potential (maybe more) FCS rivals, there may be some justification to FCS, but not EMU.

What's an "urban" school, how does Eastern Michigan meet that criteria (is Michigan also "urban"?), and why does this matter?

(04-25-2016 01:04 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 12:43 PM)lance99 Wrote:  Update: http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/mi.../83493156/

Reads like a reporter who covers college education and not sports; you can tell by the stilted cadence when the story gets into sports terminology*—it's absolutely written by somebody who doesn't deal with sports as a part of their job.

Plus the reporter either doesn't understand what Division I athletics are or presumes too much by saying that the report recommends Eastern Michigan drop out of D1 entirely, when the part of the report he immediately quotes talks about joining the (solidly D1) Horizon League and spends more time on that topic than the possibility of going D2 or D3.

That said, it's telling that some students are behind dropping football. Faculty being anti-football is no surprise; given their druthers, a large portion of faculty would drop sports outright, whether they're at a D3 liberal arts college or an SEC powerhouse. But students usually support athletics unless it's a real drain, which it appears to be here.

* — you can also click on his byline and see that he's the paper's higher ed reporter, but that way's not as fun.

Its not really surprising that the students are for dropping sports. They don't show up because they are not interested. Its just an extra cost to the vast majority of the students there.

That said, the HBO Real Sports segment is ridiculous when it says sports should pay for itself. Does any other student amenity pay for itself? Does intramural department pay for itself? How about the band? Sports is the marketing arm of the university. Marketing is an expense. What companies make money with their marketing department? Universities have found a very effective marketing method that allows the schools to recoup a large portion of the expenses involved in promoting their schools---that's really pretty ingenious. A word of warning to E Michigan, that form of marketing loses virtually all of its effectiveness when a schools drops from the world of division 1 athletics and FBS.

First my usual caveat. I believe schools should compete at the level they think fits their mission and aspirations and I think they should routinely assess whether they are where they best fit.

I know EMU has been the whipping boy example of schools that don't belong in FBS. I honestly have no idea what they have done as far as commitment or evaluation over the years other than they fought and fought hard when the MAC tried to dump them in 1981 early 1982.

One thing I see different between then and now is that EMU had gone from being a pretty successful NAIA program (football and basketball including making the NAIA basketball title game their final year) to Division II where they had success (and hoops made the final four) and had been Division I / I-A only since 1976 when the MAC made the dump effort. One rightly could have argued that there was no reason to think their then struggles were permanent.

Since then they've had four NCAA appearances including one Sweet 16 but football has more 1 and 0 win seasons than winning seasons since moving to the top level with little evidence of life the last two decades in football.

From a practical standpoint FCS isn't going to provide sufficient savings to make that shift unless they were to gain admission to the Pioneer and play non-scholarship football.

If preserving football is seen as a cultural imperative then realistically Pioneer, Division II and III make the most sense and I would argue that Division III is not fit because most Division III schools will have scholarships like Outstanding Young Leader from Wayne County award that ends up going to a football player and aren't funded out of athletics, those tend to be harder for state schools to do.

In reviewing the past periods of schools dropping football or dropping athletics or dropping to lower tiers, each period seemed to have a period when everyone hung on longer than they probably should have until someone broke the ice, then X College did it and administrators lost their fear.

All eyes should be on Idaho because if Idaho makes the decision to go FCS it will make it much easier for another administrator to make that call.

(04-25-2016 02:37 PM)Attackcoog Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 01:04 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 12:43 PM)lance99 Wrote:  Update: http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/mi.../83493156/

Reads like a reporter who covers college education and not sports; you can tell by the stilted cadence when the story gets into sports terminology*—it's absolutely written by somebody who doesn't deal with sports as a part of their job.

Plus the reporter either doesn't understand what Division I athletics are or presumes too much by saying that the report recommends Eastern Michigan drop out of D1 entirely, when the part of the report he immediately quotes talks about joining the (solidly D1) Horizon League and spends more time on that topic than the possibility of going D2 or D3.

That said, it's telling that some students are behind dropping football. Faculty being anti-football is no surprise; given their druthers, a large portion of faculty would drop sports outright, whether they're at a D3 liberal arts college or an SEC powerhouse. But students usually support athletics unless it's a real drain, which it appears to be here.

* — you can also click on his byline and see that he's the paper's higher ed reporter, but that way's not as fun.

Its not really surprising that the students are for dropping sports. They don't show up because they are not interested. Its just an extra cost to the vast majority of the students there.

That said, the HBO Real Sports segment is ridiculous when it says sports should pay for itself. Does any other student amenity pay for itself? Does intramural department pay for itself? How about the band? Sports is the marketing arm of the university. Marketing is an expense. What companies make money with their marketing department? Universities have found a very effective marketing method that allows the schools to recoup a large portion of the expenses involved in promoting their schools---that's really pretty ingenious. A word of warning to E Michigan, that form of marketing loses virtually all of its effectiveness when a schools drops from the world of division 1 athletics and FBS.

I'd say it's somewhat surprising, given that (at least anecdotally) students are usually on the leading wave of proponents to move up divisions and/or add football.

But while I agree in large part with your argument that college athletics is an effective marketing method, in terms of both results and costs, it might be doing more harm than good for Eastern Michigan, a school with a decent men's basketball history whose predominant image is nevertheless almost exclusively tied to the anchor of their football program with its few fans, fewer wins and relentlessly gray field subconsciously highlighting their depressing image and outlook.

(04-25-2016 01:00 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 12:02 PM)Shox Wrote:  The only school that makes sense for the MVFC is UND and that isn't happening without someone leaving first. Passing up Murray State and adding Loyola instead was a classic Valley move. Can't wait to get out of the MVC.

Have you ever been to Murray, KY? MVC didn't pass up anything worthwhile.

Have you seen Loyola on the court? We didn't pick up anything worthwhile.

(04-25-2016 03:04 PM)SubGod22 Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 01:00 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 12:02 PM)Shox Wrote:  The only school that makes sense for the MVFC is UND and that isn't happening without someone leaving first. Passing up Murray State and adding Loyola instead was a classic Valley move. Can't wait to get out of the MVC.

Have you ever been to Murray, KY? MVC didn't pass up anything worthwhile.

Have you seen Loyola on the court? We didn't pick up anything worthwhile.

Wasn't it a concession to the private schools, since Creighton was gone, and replacing them with a public would have swung the public/private balance to 7-3?

(04-25-2016 03:04 PM)SubGod22 Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 01:00 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 12:02 PM)Shox Wrote:  The only school that makes sense for the MVFC is UND and that isn't happening without someone leaving first. Passing up Murray State and adding Loyola instead was a classic Valley move. Can't wait to get out of the MVC.

Have you ever been to Murray, KY? MVC didn't pass up anything worthwhile.

Have you seen Loyola on the court? We didn't pick up anything worthwhile.

Being in Chicago is important long term.

(04-25-2016 03:11 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 03:04 PM)SubGod22 Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 01:00 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 12:02 PM)Shox Wrote:  The only school that makes sense for the MVFC is UND and that isn't happening without someone leaving first. Passing up Murray State and adding Loyola instead was a classic Valley move. Can't wait to get out of the MVC.

Have you ever been to Murray, KY? MVC didn't pass up anything worthwhile.

Have you seen Loyola on the court? We didn't pick up anything worthwhile.

Wasn't it a concession to the private schools, since Creighton was gone, and replacing them with a public would have swung the public/private balance to 7-3?

Yes. But they could have done better than a bottom of the Horizon team that hadn't been to the tournament in nearly 30 years

(04-25-2016 03:26 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 03:04 PM)SubGod22 Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 01:00 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 12:02 PM)Shox Wrote:  The only school that makes sense for the MVFC is UND and that isn't happening without someone leaving first. Passing up Murray State and adding Loyola instead was a classic Valley move. Can't wait to get out of the MVC.

Have you ever been to Murray, KY? MVC didn't pass up anything worthwhile.

Have you seen Loyola on the court? We didn't pick up anything worthwhile.

Being in Chicago is important long term.

For the MVC, I doubt it. I know that's their claim, but Loyola does zero for The Valley as far as publicity or recognition in Chicago. Even Loyola fans complain about how the local new (TV/Radio/Paper) ignore them. The only way it could ever possibly help is if Loyola ever pulls their head out and puts together a handful of really good years. Something they're nowhere close to being. Especially with their current coach and their lack of commitment to athletics.

(04-25-2016 03:52 PM)SubGod22 Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 03:11 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 03:04 PM)SubGod22 Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 01:00 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 12:02 PM)Shox Wrote:  The only school that makes sense for the MVFC is UND and that isn't happening without someone leaving first. Passing up Murray State and adding Loyola instead was a classic Valley move. Can't wait to get out of the MVC.

Have you ever been to Murray, KY? MVC didn't pass up anything worthwhile.

Have you seen Loyola on the court? We didn't pick up anything worthwhile.

Wasn't it a concession to the private schools, since Creighton was gone, and replacing them with a public would have swung the public/private balance to 7-3?

Yes. But they could have done better than a bottom of the Horizon team that hadn't been to the tournament in nearly 30 years

Was Oral Roberts a consideration, or were they set on moving the geographic center of the conference to the east? Even if it was, you'd think Valpo would get at least a long glance.

Honestly Valparaiso probably gets more press - and as sprawling as the Chicago DMA is, Valpo would command a better percentage of the Indiana exurbs, even with Notre Dame just down the road in South Bend.


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(04-25-2016 04:19 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 03:52 PM)SubGod22 Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 03:11 PM)Cyniclone Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 03:04 PM)SubGod22 Wrote:  

(04-25-2016 01:00 PM)MissouriStateBears Wrote:  Have you ever been to Murray, KY? MVC didn't pass up anything worthwhile.

Have you seen Loyola on the court? We didn't pick up anything worthwhile.

Wasn't it a concession to the private schools, since Creighton was gone, and replacing them with a public would have swung the public/private balance to 7-3?

Yes. But they could have done better than a bottom of the Horizon team that hadn't been to the tournament in nearly 30 years

Was Oral Roberts a consideration, or were they set on moving the geographic center of the conference to the east? Even if it was, you'd think Valpo would get at least a long glance.

I think ORU was on the list but nobody was big on adding them. There has been speculation that Wichita favored ORU but that's not true. Valpo would seem to have made more sense considering their history of at least being respectable and they do probably get more Chicago pub than Loyola.

But I do believe a big factor was saving the poorer schools money by giving them yet another game they could bus to easily. If Wichita does get to leave the conference, I won't be surprised at all if the replacement was also in IL or maybe IN for much the same reason. I think those are amongst the reasons that both Missouri State and Northern Iowa are keeping an eye out for moves as well. If they and Wichita leave it'll be all IL and IN with Drake. They may throw Drake a bone and add Omaha or UMKC. Either way, the MVC is going to lose multiple schools in the next decade I think and lose any hope of regaining multi-bid status unless something changes with all the remaining schools. There's still potential with some of them, but we're still waiting...

I know must fans do show up if it is in-state rivalry games. North Texas had that issue when they play Texas schools. The fans show up for support. When they play an out of state team? The fans do not show up. The problem with the MAC, the schools usually at the top in the conference do have the fan support when they beat P5 teams, but playing non-big name schools, it falters. It is the same with FCS schools. When they get FBS schools to play them at the FCS's home? The fans do come out.