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The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
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rabidTU2 Offline
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The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
Let me start by saying that this is just my view of what TU could do to help fund programs, put the existing athletic facilites to better use and build even greater venues as well as become an even greater asset to the the city and region.

This is something that is just my view and may never, ever become a reality, but its something I have thought should be discussed for a long time. I'm sort of an athletic facilites geek so to speak and have been interested in athletic facilities for a very long time. I actually designed a facility to fullfil a course requirement in college many years ago and did quite a bit of research on venue size, venue accessability, parking, need, expense, and ultimate revenue from it.

But I'm not going to bore everyone with the minutia from that stuff, but would like to delve into the non-boring athletic facility enhancement that is and has been occuring in college athleitcs for many years - including TU.

I'm going to try as best I can to give a forward looking view of where I think TU could and should go with their unique position as "Tulsa's University". Some of what I will present might be criticised because it may be TOO forward looking - too much in the future, but thats OK. Its just my view and if anyone wants to ignore this, thats OK. But like I say, its just a message board.

More later.
04-15-2016 10:54 AM
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rabidTU2 Offline
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RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
There are a couple of athletic facilites we have at TU that are as good as any in the league, state and nation IMO. That would be the Case Tennis Center, which again will be the site of the NCAA Tennis Championships next month. It is without a doubt, the best venue for that sport in this part of the nation. So I don't think any renovation or addition is warranted at this time. The other venue we have that is as good as any in the league and region is the Donald Reynolds Center which is home to 3 programs - MBB, WBB and WVB. That facility is new enough and well designed enough that I can't imagine anything more we could upgrade. It has everything from state of the art dressing, meeting and large weightroom facilities to a nice practice facility and huge Presidential/Guest Suite.

So I will be addressing the other facilities and leave those two facilities as is.

More later.
(This post was last modified: 04-16-2016 10:05 PM by rabidTU2.)
04-16-2016 04:16 PM
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rabidTU2 Offline
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RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
One of the advantages TU has is that it lies inside the city of Tulsa. Now some in our conference who don't know better think TU is just a tiny private school in a hick town nobody wants to visit or cares about. But that couldn't be farther from the truth.

Tulsa is just the right size. We aren't so big we have a bunch of bigtime NFL, NBA, MLB teams to compete with within our city borders. There is 1,000,000 people in the metro and 400,000 inside the city itself. So IMO its just the right size for success if we can muster the programs, tap into the strength of the league and keep our winning ways going for a good long while. Of course everyone understands we have the intentionally small enrollment which has allowed TU to change and beautify its campus and become the residential destination it now is.

TU is a gem and can be an even greater hub of activity if the city and region latch onto its vast potential. Academically, TU as we all know, is one of a kind in the region. Athletically, TU has a very exciting history of competition and winning. TU is easily the most important academic institution located in a large city anywhere in the state and region. Even TU's location lying on the mother road (Route 66) is unique. TU is in just the right spot in the city imo, not too close to the downtown and not too far away. We don't have the impossible task of an SMU for instance located within an area which limits campus expansion.

Now imo TU does need some assistance from the city to help it grow athletically and there is a long history of TU and the city working together. Many remember when TU MBB played in the downtown Civic Center (2 miles from campus) before the Don was built. The cities USFL football franchise "Oklahoma Outlaws" played at TU's Skelly Stadium. The "old" Tulsa Roughnecks of the North American Soccer League played at Skelly Stadium and drew great crowds. Many events like several Dallas Cowboy pro FB exhibitions were played at Skelly as well back in the 60's. When TU had its once great baseball program, it played in the old Oiler Park only 2 miles from campus to the south at the fairgrounds. So there is a long history of the city and TU sharing facilities and working hand in hand to make both better and more successful.

More later.

Next up - The city of Tulsa and TU - Sharing facilites.
(This post was last modified: 04-22-2016 09:43 AM by rabidTU2.)
04-18-2016 09:41 AM
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rabidTU2 Offline
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RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
TU has a multiple number of sports programs and has built or renovated almost all its facilities within the last 20 years. The Case Tennis Center and the Hardesty Complex (Softball, Track, Soccer) along Delaware Ave. didn't exist until the 1990s. That opened up the huge amount of construction on the west side of TU. At about the same time, TU opened the Don for MBB, WBB and WVB. The construction of those athletic venues ensured TU's place in a growing, burdgeoning and brand new conferences of similar universities with academic excellence and great athletic potential - first the WAC, CUSA and now the AAC. So athletic facilities are tremendously important and "MUST" be a focal point of our great school at 11th and Harvard.

So what is next? Well, we've announced the IPF and I assume its on the drawing board to be built even though we haven't heard much lately. TU has announced it and I assume it will be a done deal sooner than later. After that, there has been talk about further developement of Chapman Stadium and specifically building suites/inside seating on the east side of that venue. I'd like to discuss that later in this topic forum.



The City of Tulsa and TU - Sharing Athletic Facilities.

Just as in the past, I believe there needs to be a renewed push for both the city and university to work closely together and use the existing facilities at hand. Right now that isn't really being done as much as in the past. Part of the problem was that TU isn't as dependent as before on city owned venues like the aformentioned Civic Center, Oiler Park and the cities use of Skelly Stadium as an attraction as a pro venue etc.

Right now the city sports teams have evolved and changed. We don't and won't have "major" pro sports at least in the forseeable future. There is no NFL franchise waiting in the wings nor is the NBA breaking down the door of the mayors office to play in the BOK. Even the OKC Thunder won't play more than a single exhibition game here - imo a snub to the city that helped them acquire the franchise in the first place.

Because of the present demographics of the city, soccer has become a major pro sport once again in the metro. We actually have two pro teams - the Roughnecks and Athletics. Neither of those teams have a soccer friendly facility and both play in venues designed and setup for baseball, not soccer. And there is no push to change that as far as I can tell. Actually the Athletics appear to be in jeopardy of losing their venue altogether - the old Driller Park on the fairgrounds which is set to be demolished and transitioned into a BMX facility. So I'm sure that franchise is desperate to find another venue or will move or disband altogether.

Soooo! How about TU's soccer (and Track) facility coming to the rescue. The Roughnecks and Athletics need a complex that is soccer friendly, not too far from the middle of the city and is set up for that sport and not baseball. Some folks might say that there would be too many conflicts, but I investigated that and there really wouldnt be as far as I can tell.

The TU Facility at 6th and Delaware - We use that facility for track AND soccer - both men and women. But track doesn't seem to be a problem since most of the meets are away and only one dual was scheduled this year at the facility. So its mostly a practice venue for that sport. No, the main use as a game venue is for college soccer. TU's mens and womens soccer teams schedule runs from August to September in the fall when pro soccer isn't being played. So there is no conflict during that time of year. The only conflicts would come during the spring. TU's spring schedule fell this year between mid-March to mid-April (6 games) and the womens schedule is similar. The Athletics played their schedule between early May thru July with only 7 home games. The Roughnecks schedule was longer and ran from the last of March thru early September. If you look at a calendar, you can easily see there would be very few schedule conflicts if the matches were played at the TU Hardesty complex.

So why do I advocate taking a look at this? Well it comes down to one word - revenue. TU can make money renting its ready made soccer friendly venue to these pro soccer teams - one or even both if the schedules are compatable for both.

The other reason is that imo we need to nourish the idea of getting more people on campus and forming the habit of encouraging the citizens of Tulsa to make TU its home team.

Now there might have to be a few renovations to our campus venue. We might have to upgrade the seating, parking, amenities and make a small investment in those or even ask the city to help with that. Its been done before. But in the end, whats good for Tulsa is good for TU and vice versa. Oh and one other thing, it certainly can't hurt the TU soccer programs to have a pro soccer team playing on their field and on their campus.

IMO
(This post was last modified: 04-22-2016 09:49 AM by rabidTU2.)
04-19-2016 11:18 AM
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rabidTU2 Offline
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RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
Also TU has the additional soccer practice auxilliary field just a block away from Hardesty and south of the Case Tennis Center and would alleviate any practice conflicts and would also allow a pro soccer team a practice venue if needed. And then when the IPF is built, it would also become an extra practice facility for any or all the teams - TU or pro. And according to design plans there would be leftover space for an additonal football sized field at Harwell which could also be used for soccer practice. That amounts to four fields on the TU campus that could be used for soccer games or practice.

But the key point is that a university soccer team (TU) doesn't schedule games in the summer months when the kids are on summer break and pro teams do. That opens up the possibility of a college facility to be used and revenue to be made from renting it during that time.
(This post was last modified: 04-19-2016 07:14 PM by rabidTU2.)
04-19-2016 07:12 PM
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RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
Softball has replaced our one time great baseball program that was a perrenial top 10 program, went to the CWS and almost won the national baseball championship in Omaha a little over 40 years ago. Title 9 forced TU out of mens baseball and into womens softball, so we need to make softball the best we can and the equivalent success of baseball imo. As I stated above, the men played at the old Oiler Park and it was a mess - wooden bleachers that eventually collapsed at an event and the county was actually sued from a couple of bleacher related problems with that old venue. That should never happen again at any venue in the city of Tulsa including TU.

So imo there is a duty to make TU softball the female equal of TU baseball. That will take a venue that allows for success. We have an on campus softball venue and it is "adequate", but nothing special when its compared to others we compete with inside the AAC and in our geographic region.

We ARE making progress with the new dressing/lounge/meeting facility on the east of the softball field, but that should just be the start. What I'd llike to see (eventually) is an upgrade of seating, especially to chairback seats. Softball contests are often double headers or single games that go into extra innings and last several hours. So if TU wants the good folks that support softball to keep coming, we need a bit more comfort for those wonderful fans. Most of the venues on campus have "some" chairback seating like basketball and football so its appropriate for the softball venue as well.

TU could start out with only a reserve section of chairback seats and then expand as needed. I'd also like to see MORE seats by extending the seating area behind the concreted seats we have. I believe we have a capacity of about 1,000, but that should be expanded in the future so we can accomodate bigger crowds and give the place a feel of a major venue attracting even more fans. The cost of this shouldn't be excessive. Also the softball venue is next door to the Case Teninis Center and that alone should demand excellence.

More later.
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2016 11:22 PM by rabidTU2.)
04-20-2016 03:00 PM
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RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
Mabee Gym is a building that has been on campus for about 40 years and I've heard some folks say it is really a piece of trash. But to be honest, thats in the eye of the beholder. A 40 year old building on campus is still a good deal younger than several others that are landmarks like McFarland Library and yes, Chapman/Skelly Stadium that was built in 1930 - 86 years ago. And of course those iconic structures have gone through more than one renovation. I am a big advocate of renovation where feasable and replacement where renovation isn't. I was in Mabee Gym on the west side a couple of months ago in the area where the offices are located and its really fairly nice there. We have a lot of important offices and storage there and it looks fine imo. There is also a lot of irreplaceable athletic workout areas that are vital to the athletic dept. Of course the Rowing/Erg and water tank are there as well as our main volleyball practice gym and I believe we still have the indoor golf practice room as well as a large indoor workout room for track and a softball infield IPF "area". We also have a fairly large band room and dance drill/cheer room there. So Mabee Gym is very, very important to the athletic programs and needs to stay - period. Mabee is centrally located right across the street from Chapman and the Don, so it should be considered as "Athletic Territory" so to speak.

The one place I haven't been in is the campus police headquarters. Now I think the campus police are a vital dept at the university, but it just looks out of place in what I consider "athletic territory" and I'd be pleased to see the campus cops move to another part of campus and free up that part of Mabee for athletics. TU has talked about having an athletic team training table for some time and I assume we still don't have one at TU, so I'd think either an expansion at Mabee or renovation of a part of it would provide the space needed to have a dining area there. And its proximity to the football and basketball arenas would allow for another place for pregame and booster club affairs during bad weather.

Present Athletic Dept Use of Mabee Gym:
1. Athletic Offices (adm)
2. Equipment Storage (ath dept)
3. Rowing (Tank, Erg, meeting etc)
4. Indoor Golf Practice Room
5. Volleyball Practice Room
6. Utility workout room/practice area for track, soccer, softball (infield size).
7. Band/Instrument room, Cheer, Dance (considered as part of athletics)

Did you know? ------ Before Mabee Gym was built as it exists today, there were plans to build an arena on that piece of TU land. But at that time back in the 60's/70's, the adm decided (because of cost) not to build an arena, but to construct Mabee instead. There was actually a rendering of what the arena would look like at that time. (I wonder if that still exists?)
If you remember, we were playing basketball during those years at first in the national guard armory on the fairgrounds and later at the fairgrounds pavillion. My how things have changed! Those kinds of changes will occur in the future as well and a reason I started this thread - a glimpse into the "possible" future of facilities at TU.

More later.
(This post was last modified: 04-21-2016 11:00 AM by rabidTU2.)
04-21-2016 10:21 AM
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RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
(04-21-2016 10:21 AM)rabidTU2 Wrote:  Mabee Gym is a building that has been on campus for about 40 years and I've heard some folks say it is really a piece of trash. But to be honest, thats in the eye of the beholder. A 40 year old building on campus is still a good deal younger than several others that are landmarks like McFarland Library and yes, Chapman/Skelly Stadium that was built in 1930 - 86 years ago. And of course those iconic structures have gone through more than one renovation. I am a big advocate of renovation where feasable and replacement where renovation isn't. I was in Mabee Gym on the west side a couple of months ago in the area where the offices are located and its really fairly nice there. We have a lot of important offices and storage there and it looks fine imo. There is also a lot of irreplaceable athletic workout areas that are vital to the athletic dept. Of course the Rowing/Erg and water tank are there as well as our main volleyball practice gym and I believe we still have the indoor golf practice room as well as a large indoor workout room for track and a softball infield IPF "area". We also have a fairly large band room and dance drill/cheer room there. So Mabee Gym is very, very important to the athletic programs and needs to stay - period. Mabee is centrally located right across the street from Chapman and the Don, so it should be considered as "Athletic Territory" so to speak.

The one place I haven't been in is the campus police headquarters. Now I think the campus police are a vital dept at the university, but it just looks out of place in what I consider "athletic territory" and I'd be pleased to see the campus cops move to another part of campus and free up that part of Mabee for athletics. TU has talked about having an athletic team training table for some time and I assume we still don't have one at TU, so I'd think either an expansion at Mabee or renovation of a part of it would provide the space needed to have a dining area there. And its proximity to the football and basketball arenas would allow for another place for pregame and booster club affairs during bad weather.

Present Athletic Dept Use of Mabee Gym:
1. Athletic Offices (adm)
2. Equipment Storage (ath dept)
3. Rowing (Tank, Erg, meeting etc)
4. Indoor Golf Practice Room
5. Volleyball Practice Room
6. Utility workout room/practice area for track, soccer, softball (infield size).
7. Band/Instrument room, Cheer, Dance (considered as part of athletics)

Did you know? ------ Before Mabee Gym was built as it exists today, there were plans to build an arena on that piece of TU land. But at that time back in the 60's/70's, the adm decided (because of cost) not to build an arena, but to construct Mabee instead. There was actually a rendering of what the arena would look like at that time. (I wonder if that still exists?)
If you remember, we were playing basketball during those years at first in the national guard armory on the fairgrounds and later at the fairgrounds pavillion. My how things have changed! Those kinds of changes will occur in the future as well and a reason I started this thread - a glimpse into the "possible" future of facilities at TU.

More later.

I spent a lot of time in the band room in Mabee Gym as recently as last year. As well as some time in the "IPF" portion. As far as the band room goes it could us a lot of work just to get it up to being a "decent" facility. Plus we've nearly out grown it even though the band isn't that big (Although numbers have gone up and down in recent years).

I think the ideal fix would be to build a new "Mabee Gym" to house all the facilities mentioned above and put it where they are proposing the new IPF be built on Harwell Field. And then build the IPF where Mabee Gym is right across from the football stadium. That would look really nice, but it would also take a whole lot more time and money.
04-21-2016 04:15 PM
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rabidTU2 Offline
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RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
(04-21-2016 04:15 PM)Hurricane Drummer Wrote:  
(04-21-2016 10:21 AM)rabidTU2 Wrote:  Mabee Gym is a building that has been on campus for about 40 years and I've heard some folks say it is really a piece of trash. But to be honest, thats in the eye of the beholder. A 40 year old building on campus is still a good deal younger than several others that are landmarks like McFarland Library and yes, Chapman/Skelly Stadium that was built in 1930 - 86 years ago. And of course those iconic structures have gone through more than one renovation. I am a big advocate of renovation where feasable and replacement where renovation isn't. I was in Mabee Gym on the west side a couple of months ago in the area where the offices are located and its really fairly nice there. We have a lot of important offices and storage there and it looks fine imo. There is also a lot of irreplaceable athletic workout areas that are vital to the athletic dept. Of course the Rowing/Erg and water tank are there as well as our main volleyball practice gym and I believe we still have the indoor golf practice room as well as a large indoor workout room for track and a softball infield IPF "area". We also have a fairly large band room and dance drill/cheer room there. So Mabee Gym is very, very important to the athletic programs and needs to stay - period. Mabee is centrally located right across the street from Chapman and the Don, so it should be considered as "Athletic Territory" so to speak.

The one place I haven't been in is the campus police headquarters. Now I think the campus police are a vital dept at the university, but it just looks out of place in what I consider "athletic territory" and I'd be pleased to see the campus cops move to another part of campus and free up that part of Mabee for athletics. TU has talked about having an athletic team training table for some time and I assume we still don't have one at TU, so I'd think either an expansion at Mabee or renovation of a part of it would provide the space needed to have a dining area there. And its proximity to the football and basketball arenas would allow for another place for pregame and booster club affairs during bad weather.

Present Athletic Dept Use of Mabee Gym:
1. Athletic Offices (adm)
2. Equipment Storage (ath dept)
3. Rowing (Tank, Erg, meeting etc)
4. Indoor Golf Practice Room
5. Volleyball Practice Room
6. Utility workout room/practice area for track, soccer, softball (infield size).
7. Band/Instrument room, Cheer, Dance (considered as part of athletics)

Did you know? ------ Before Mabee Gym was built as it exists today, there were plans to build an arena on that piece of TU land. But at that time back in the 60's/70's, the adm decided (because of cost) not to build an arena, but to construct Mabee instead. There was actually a rendering of what the arena would look like at that time. (I wonder if that still exists?)
If you remember, we were playing basketball during those years at first in the national guard armory on the fairgrounds and later at the fairgrounds pavillion. My how things have changed! Those kinds of changes will occur in the future as well and a reason I started this thread - a glimpse into the "possible" future of facilities at TU.

More later.

I spent a lot of time in the band room in Mabee Gym as recently as last year. As well as some time in the "IPF" portion. As far as the band room goes it could us a lot of work just to get it up to being a "decent" facility. Plus we've nearly out grown it even though the band isn't that big (Although numbers have gone up and down in recent years).

I think the ideal fix would be to build a new "Mabee Gym" to house all the facilities mentioned above and put it where they are proposing the new IPF be built on Harwell Field. And then build the IPF where Mabee Gym is right across from the football stadium. That would look really nice, but it would also take a whole lot more time and money.

Thanks for the input. What you are saying about using Harwell and the area where Mabee is (the parking lot anyway) was my first guess on where the IPF would go and if we didn't have an all purpose IPF (with a track) on the drawing board, I think that would be the place. But I guess the IPF would intrude too much into the frats since the IPF designed would be both longer and wider than an IPF without a track and I suppose they decided on Harwell for the IPF because Dr Upham wanted to leave Mabee where its at and didn't want to touch the rowing facilities/tank and the other stuff there. The band room (which I've only been in once) is big enough for a number of things like the aformentioned training table/cafeteria. Using the present band room for another purpose would of course necessitate band moving somewhere else. But of course, once the IPF is built it would serve nicely for band march drill as well as the other fields.

Everything I'm presenting here is just imaginery and like I say, may never occur, but I think its feasable and doable in the distant future. Just something to mull over in the off season. But keep up the ideas if you can. Thanks.

More later.
(This post was last modified: 04-22-2016 09:18 AM by rabidTU2.)
04-21-2016 06:38 PM
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Post: #10
RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
http://www.daktronics.com/en-us/products...oor-ribbon

The above link is just a an example of the newest innovation for athletic programs to make money through advertising. You have probably seen these at various events and they actually provide an additional revenue stream for any venue. There is of course an initial cost, but the long term revenue possibilities far outweigh that.

We actually do a lot of advertising as it is - mainly on the scoreboards we already have at Chapman Stadium and the Don, but it is limited to timeouts as well as pre-game and post game. What the "ribbons" do is display a constant series of advertisements over and over. That is money in the bank for the universities smart enough to install them.

To begin with, I think it best to erect them where the most people congregate which would be Chapman and the Donald Reynolds Center, then as need arises, expand that to the other venues. For instance "IF" our soccer/track complex were to grow into a college/pro soccer venue, that would be an excellent place for a "ribbon" display and would of course be making money for the university during both pro and college events.

A constant stream of ribbon advertising is a constant stream of money to the university and that would be worth the investment imo.

More later.
(This post was last modified: 04-22-2016 09:22 AM by rabidTU2.)
04-22-2016 08:50 AM
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RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
You can click the individual facility picture for more details.

http://www.tulsahurricane.com/sports/201...ities.aspx
(This post was last modified: 04-22-2016 10:37 AM by rabidTU2.)
04-22-2016 10:30 AM
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RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
I view TU's athletic facilities on campus as not only important to TU but to the Tulsa area and the entire region of eastern Oklahoma. They are valuable resources that a lot of similar sized cities can't use because they simply don't exist in those communities. Its obvious that the better those facilities are, the better community we have. And the fact they are on campus and utilized quite often is even better because it allows them to be well maintained and upgraded when the need arises. What would a Jenks/Union football game for instance, be like without Chapman Stadium? Just another HS game. No, Chapman Stadium in this city makes those games worth watching and attending imo.

Now there are some communities that have city owned venues that were built and maintained by that city yet fallen on hard times. Birmingham, Alabama was the classic example of that. Legion Field was a city owned and maintained facility that was built as a second home for Alabama Crimson Tide football that allowed the SEC to play somewhat neutral games in Alabama's largest city and it worked well for many years. It also allowed Birmingham to schedule Bowl games and other events and eventually became home for UAB football. It allowed UAB to have an affordable, rentable venue used as a home field although not directly on the campus, thus saving tens of millions of dollars in the UAB athletic budget. But of course we know what happned there and I won't go into that at this time. And some cities have basically done the same thing like Little Rock and War Memorial Stadium, a 50,000 seat stadium where the Razorbacks commit to playing games every year and that seems to work well for them.

On the downside is that it sometimes doesn't work because of the politics or economy downturns that jeopardize the tax base/structure and that naturally happen. (One of the first things that always gets trimmed is a stadium with no pro team). And of course maintenance can become an ongoing problem as the venue ages. It just seems that a city govt is not always a good owner of many of these large stadium venues unless a pro team plays there. Memphis is a probable exception to this, but with the long term alliance there with the Liberty Bowl, that helps a bunch. No pro team, but a guaranteed Bowl game.

I recommend TU use only TU owned and TU maintained facilites now and in the future with the possible exception if TU were to ever restart baseball (I recommend that TU should play at OneOk), something that I posted about a year ago, but restarting baseball is at best a long shot in the forseeable future.

But again, I think it is feasable and appropriate for the city to use TU facilites where possible because it helps both make money and sustain their programs.

More Later.

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** How to intelligently and economically enhance and expand Chapman Stadium and make more revenue for TU in the future.**
(This post was last modified: 04-24-2016 01:55 PM by rabidTU2.)
04-24-2016 10:26 AM
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rabidTU2 Offline
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Post: #13
RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
A Look At The On-Campus Stadiums In The AAC

Presently the members of the AAC that have on-campus/university owned football stadiums are:
Cincinnati
Houston
UCF
ECU
Navy
Tulane
SMU
Tulsa

Schools who play football in Stadiums off their main campus
UCONN
Temple*
USF
Memphis

*Temple is finalizing plans to build an on-campus football stadium at present time, but probably will still play in a Pro venue at least for next year. UCONN does not play in a pro stadium, but plays off their main campus about 30 miles away (as I understand it). Playing off the main campus usually puts a hardship burden on students attending a sports event since they cannot easily walk to the event if they live on campus. So normally that cuts down on student attendance and participation.

Terms that may be used when discussing stadiums:
1. Understructure - The part of a stadium or venue that physically supports it but is not a contest viewable area of it. Understructures' only purpose is to hold up that part of the stadium where people sit and watch the contest.
2. Empties - The number of unused seats in a stadium on the day of an event.
3. Premium Seating - This can be boxes, suites or any type of indoor seating that is seperate from the normal outside stands in the given venue.
4. Capacity - this will include both the number of outdoor and indoor seats as a total number (in Chapman).

More Later.
(This post was last modified: 04-25-2016 09:37 AM by rabidTU2.)
04-25-2016 09:34 AM
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rabidTU2 Offline
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Post: #14
RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
One of the smart moves TU made when the Don was built was to build it with as little above ground understructure as possible. By that I mean most of the seating bowl is built below ground level and doesn't require a typical understructure or maintenance on that understructure. Chapman stadium was partially renovated with that in mind back in the 1960's when a track was eliminated and seats added below the original seats that had been constructed in 1930. If my memory is correct, the seats added in 1965 on the east and west side amounted to about 3500. Also as the entire field was lowered the dirt from that wasn't hauled away, but mounded on the south end that supports the south stands we have today along 11th street. As it turned out, that was very wise indeed and opens up a lot of cost effective possibilities in the future I will address.

**IMO many of our competitiors in the region we compete in would be better served if they didn't build their stadiums so high off the ground because that strategy requires a huge understructure sometimes reaching 6 stories or more off the ground surface. That makes the stadium more costly initially and harder to maintain as time goes by. If you'll look at Chapman Stadium the outside stadium distance from ground level to the top row of seats amounts to a 2 1/2 story building. That means that any added structure of seating wouldn't require a massive amount of understructure to support that structure thus eliminating a large cost. Again, understructure is expensive and unneeded except as a support. So any additions to CS would be less costly, somewhat safer and more easily constructed in a shorter amount of time than stadiums built "higher" with a more elaborate understructure.
(This post was last modified: 04-26-2016 12:46 PM by rabidTU2.)
04-26-2016 11:02 AM
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rabidTU2 Offline
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Post: #15
RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
Here are a couple of examples of similar sized stadiums from schools we are familiar with that seem to be good models of the kind of seating we could incorporate into Chapman Stadium. What i like the most is that both stadiums have suites as well as premium "rowed" seats.

http://www.southernmiss.com/facilities/r...adium.html

Take a good look at the endzone building facility and it mirrors what we could economically build on the south end and of course there wouldn't need to be an expensive understructure since TU could just build it on top of the existing hill - no understructure required.


http://www.smumustangs.com/mustangclub/p...ating.html

The above example is good for any future east side addition because it includes several rows of premium seats whcih again bring large amounts of revenue to the program. Again, since we don't have a multi-story understructure to deal with, the cost isn't prohibitive.

These two examples are from programs we have competed with over the years. What I think we should push for in the future is more premium seating and suites over outdoor seating. Its all about the revenue, not the visible empties. Proper scheduling will fill the outdoor empties.
(This post was last modified: 04-27-2016 10:30 AM by rabidTU2.)
04-27-2016 10:25 AM
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JHG722 Offline
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Post: #16
RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
Our on campus stadium is likely to open for the 2018 or 2019 season. Our practice facilities are on campus.
04-28-2016 09:12 PM
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rabidTU2 Offline
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Post: #17
RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
Thanks JHG722. When you get all the details on it, could you give us an update or updates as the process continues. And congratualtions on it. You'll love having an on campus venue and it will be great for the FB program.
04-29-2016 10:14 AM
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rabidTU2 Offline
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Post: #18
RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
I have a simple metric on stadium size that can be used to determine how much seating a stadium needs. Its a general numeric and simply understood cap I use that gauges ideal on-campus stadium capacity and whether a stadium meets the needs of the students, campus community and citizens in the community. To keep it simple it is ----- undergrad enrollment/minus stadium capacity/equals potential revenue. Potential revenue is what should be used to determine the size of the stadium in the first place and whether the future revenue can be had from it.

Let me begin by giving a couple of examples of this metric using a few schools we are somewhat familiar with. Source is Phill Steeles CFB Magazine.

School--------------------------Enrollment(undergrad)------------------Stadium Cap---------------Difference

Kansas St--------------------------20,169-----------------------------------50,000--------------------29,831 (empties)

Kansas-----------------------------19,217-----------------------------------50,071--------------------30,854

UCF--------------------------------51,333------------------------------------45,323--------(negative--6,010

Cincinnati -------------------------23,706------------------------------------40,000--------------------16,294

Tulsa -------------------------------3,428-------------------------------------30,000--------------------26,574



So as we can see there is quite a bit of variance in the figures and its obvious that enrollment plays a part in the size of the venue. However, if you look at that in real terms, students do not provide the amount of revenue the typical non-student paying customer does and that means a great deal to the viability of the programs. Some folks assume TU with its very small enrollment would never be able to keep up and there is merit to that POV, but in reality TU has never been dependent on the students for its funding. But neither do those other schools listed above. Revenue is normally derived from paying customers who visit campus on game day. So given that, it becomes imperative that those "visitors" need to be coddled so to speak and given every convenience to visit again and again. That includes good parking, comfort and a great experience on game day.

Back on point. So how big are we talking about here? Well, looking at some of the examples I listed, its obvious we don't really need a 50,000 seat venue, but we should have enough non-student capacity that provides the programs the revenue to sustain them.

So I think the cap number we now have is close to what we need, but not necessarily the convenience and comfort. So my strategy is to add comfort/convenience to the stadium with as much seating as possible that enhances the experience and makes the most revenue. We also need a stadium that allows us to occasionally schedule a game with an opponent that may be slightly above our pay grade. A game we wouldn't have to disadvantage our fans with a huge bump in ticket price. That is where I think having those premium seats, suites and boxes make up the difference. It allows us to go to a Tulsa area business and sell them tickets they won't necessarily use every home game, but as a way of donating to TU and guaranteeing a seat for the OU, OSU, Texas A@M or Baylor game. That is the strategy and the plan.

Building boxes and premium seating is initially expensive, but again won't be cost prohibitive because of the smaller understructure required - money that a lot of other schools just throw away as a necessary evil. And if TU just wanted to go economical and build a south endzone facility like USM, it wouldn't be too expensive by building it "on the hill" along 11th street and "ole histroric route 66".

More Later.







Source - Phil Steeles CFB Magazine (2015)
(This post was last modified: 04-29-2016 11:20 AM by rabidTU2.)
04-29-2016 11:13 AM
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JHG722 Offline
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Post: #19
RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
(04-29-2016 10:14 AM)rabidTU2 Wrote:  Thanks JHG722. When you get all the details on it, could you give us an update or updates as the process continues. And congratualtions on it. You'll love having an on campus venue and it will be great for the FB program.

Sure
04-29-2016 12:57 PM
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rabidTU2 Offline
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Post: #20
RE: The Future of TU Facilties? A rabidTU2 Suggestion.
So how big? How big should we make and increase the stadium in the future with those suites and premium seating?

Well, according to what I understand, TU is trying to increase undergrad enrollment and the goal is to double it to about the 6,000 level which would put the total enrollment to around 7,000-7,500. That would about equal the figures we had back in the late 60's - early 70's when TU wasn't as much a residential campus as it is today. And using the goal of "only" premium seating, that would mean we would need about that number added to the capacity. Of course those seats would be offered to the business community first and then the general public since businesses tend to buy the seats and write some of it off as a custiomer business expense. So we'd need around 3,000 or so additional premium suites, boxes or indoor seating, bringing the total cap to around 33,000.

Now about renting those to the businesses. Well we have a very unique position now in the AAC. Just look at the cities we share the conference with? And just on our side of the league - the AAC west! Dallas, Houston, Memphis, NOLA. and then there is that national university in Maryland. Folks, if you are a businessman wanting to expand or someone in the energy business, communications, transportation etc, there is not a better conference to be in than the AAC. And then you have the vast resources of the eastern side of the league that stretches from Florida to the northeastern megalopolis cities of the Atlantic. That is the selling point. If you owned a business here and wanted to expand to Memphis, Texas, Florida, and/or those huge northeastern cities, wouldn't it be worth your while to invest a little to host the bigwig from Philadelphia or NYC to watch a game and wine and dine them in your TU suite?

At some point in the very near future, TU should strike while the iron is hot and look seriously at our facilties and make a list of goals that would increase revenue, help the community grow even more, take advantage of the visibility we now have and our status in this wonderful new league.
(This post was last modified: 05-03-2016 05:49 PM by rabidTU2.)
05-03-2016 10:35 AM
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