(06-20-2016 11:57 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I just think with how much less Irving had played, that did play a factor. You talk about rehab- Curry had to rehab from the 2nd rd series into the WCF. Irving looked like thru the series the freshest guy around- and that's why IMO. Irving played 250 minutes fewer in the entire year- regular season/playoffs than Curry did just in the regular season.

Fatigue is an issue. But what I am getting at is that rehab on a knee, and what is involved to get back, is not "rest." If he were out with say a shoulder injury, that would be a very valid point, because then he would be rested in terms of legs. But rehab on your knees, you often have to put in more work than just playing, can wear you down. That is why you are put on minutes restrictions. Irving had a long road back just to play. I just don't think that being in rehab "Saved" his legs for the finals. But the difference between them, to me, was Irving playing 210 minutes in the conference finals, and only playing 67 minutes between May 24 and the start of the finals, with a lot of it coasting, and against a team who had no center left, compared to 119 for Curry in that time frame, where they had to scrap and claw just to get to the finals, and played against a team rotating 3 seven footers and an Ibaka in the paint to punish them. To me, that was the bigger difference.

But I could be wrong, maybe the regular season came into play. Generally there is enough space between the end of the regular season (April 13) and beginning of the Finals (June 2) that those minutes are a much smaller factor. Then again, Tim Duncan's playoff performance may just prove your point, when around game 5 or so, it seemed all of those miles caught up with him in one game.

(06-20-2016 12:01 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  You know why I don't buy the fatigue thing, because the two guys who played the most minutes this year, Draymond and Lebron, were the best players last night and frankly, the whole series. Lebron played more minutes than Curry or Thompson, has more miles on his body, and plays a more taxing style of basketball, and when his team was down 3-1, he found a reserve tank.

When former players all tell you the fatigue is an issue, why would you say it is not. But the primary thing I said, specifically, was how fatigue affected their JUMP Shots. Neither team had to play enough, and with the games spaced out, to see anyone run out of gas like Cleveland did last year. But what I specifically said, and you danced around, is that fatigue affects jump shooting teams near the end of games, because they have no one to throw the ball to in the post to get easy shots when their legs leave. We specifically saw Golden State
start missing jump shots in the second half of the last two or three games, they had hit ALL season and ALL playoffs long. Wide open shots. Why? their legs.

You mentioned LeBron, how many jump shots did LeBron hit last night? Green was on fire the first half, but he had only played one game in 6 days. HE was not fatigued.

(06-20-2016 12:52 PM)adcorbett Wrote:  

(06-20-2016 11:57 AM)stever20 Wrote:  I just think with how much less Irving had played, that did play a factor. You talk about rehab- Curry had to rehab from the 2nd rd series into the WCF. Irving looked like thru the series the freshest guy around- and that's why IMO. Irving played 250 minutes fewer in the entire year- regular season/playoffs than Curry did just in the regular season.

Fatigue is an issue. But what I am getting at is that rehab on a knee, and what is involved to get back, is not "rest." If he were out with say a shoulder injury, that would be a very valid point, because then he would be rested in terms of legs. But rehab on your knees, you often have to put in more work than just playing, can wear you down. That is why you are put on minutes restrictions. Irving had a long road back just to play. I just don't think that being in rehab "Saved" his legs for the finals. But the difference between them, to me, was Irving playing 210 minutes in the conference finals, and only playing 67 minutes between May 24 and the start of the finals, with a lot of it coasting, and against a team who had no center left, compared to 119 for Curry in that time frame, where they had to scrap and claw just to get to the finals, and played against a team rotating 3 seven footers and an Ibaka in the paint to punish them. To me, that was the bigger difference.

But I could be wrong, maybe the regular season came into play. Generally there is enough space between the end of the regular season (April 13) and beginning of the Finals (June 2) that those minutes are a much smaller factor. Then again, Tim Duncan's playoff performance may just prove your point, when around game 5 or so, it seemed all of those miles caught up with him in one game.

(06-20-2016 12:01 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  You know why I don't buy the fatigue thing, because the two guys who played the most minutes this year, Draymond and Lebron, were the best players last night and frankly, the whole series. Lebron played more minutes than Curry or Thompson, has more miles on his body, and plays a more taxing style of basketball, and when his team was down 3-1, he found a reserve tank.

When former players all tell you the fatigue is an issue, why would you say it is not. But the primary thing I said, specifically, was how fatigue affected their JUMP Shots. Neither team had to play enough, and with the games spaced out, to see anyone run out of gas like Cleveland did last year. But what I specifically said, and you danced around, is that fatigue affects jump shooting teams near the end of games, because they have no one to throw the ball to in the post to get easy shots when their legs leave. We specifically saw Golden State
start missing jump shots in the second half of the last two or three games, they had hit ALL season and ALL playoffs long. Wide open shots. Why? their legs.

You mentioned LeBron, how many jump shots did LeBron hit last night? Green was on fire the first half, but he had only played one game in 6 days. HE was not fatigued.

Lebron's jump shot looked fine in games 5 and 6 though. And again he plays more minutes than Curry or Thompson, has years of extra mileage, and a ton more weight to carry around. That team was too young and deep too use fatigue as an excuse. Again I'm not saying that fatigue isn't a factor but it's not the go to excuse because their was fatigue for both teams. I guess the point I was trying to make, and obviously did a poor job articulating is that champions have to find that extra gear to get it done. I also think the fatigue argument, however valid it may be, undermines Cleveland's defensive effort specifically on Curry and Thompson.

That said you're just dead wrong about Green. How can you say he wasn't fatigued simply because he missed game 5? I thought your whole point was that the wear and tear of heavy minutes throughout the entire season builds on a player. You can fact check me on this but Draymond played over 3600 minutes (Regular season + Postseason) by far the most by any one player and almost 200 more than Thompson and 300 more than Curry. I'd also argue he plays way harder than either one of those players while he is on the court, due to his style of play and defensive assignments. So I don't think its accurate to say he wasn't battling through fatigue last night, I just think he managed to find another gear.

(06-20-2016 01:30 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  Lebron's jump shot looked fine in games 5 and 6 though. And again he plays more minutes than Curry or Thompson, has years of extra mileage, and a ton more weight to carry around. That team was too young and deep too use fatigue as an excuse. Again I'm not saying that fatigue isn't a factor but it's not the go to excuse because their was fatigue for both teams. I guess the point I was trying to make, and obviously did a poor job articulating is that champions have to find that extra gear to get it done.

Excuse and reason are two different things. What I said, that started this, was that GS was far more susceptible to fatigue, because they had no one who could get them point in the post when their legs gave out. Cleveland had LeBron, Love, Thompson, and Irving all scoring in the post. GS only had Livingston, and he was virtually non-existent the past two games. When you rely on jump shots, and fatigue catches up to you, you can't score. That is what happened to GS. It has been the rule of thumb in the NBA for decades, which is why the old adage was you could not win with jump shooting teams. This is why so many of the old school NBA guys refused to give GS respect the past two years, because they were more or less bucking traditional thinking. In this case, it appears traditional thinking may have come back to haunt them. They were also almost beat by Oklahoma City for similar reasons, not so much fatigue, but inability to adapt when they could not hit the crazy shots they had lived on all year (until they started hitting them again in games 6 and 7). It exposed somewhat that GS has gotten away with some bad offense, saved by the fact that Curry and Thompson can consistently hit tough shots when heavily contested. But they could not keep it up, when worn down, whereas Cleveland was less fatigued, but even as they tired, their offense was less affected, because they just kept attacking the rim.

(06-20-2016 01:30 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  That said you're just dead wrong about Green. How can you say he wasn't fatigued simply because he missed game 5? I thought your whole point was that the wear and tear of heavy minutes throughout the entire season builds on a player.

No, that was Stever's point, I specifically argued against it (but conceded there may be something to it). I said the wear and tear of the last two series, the physicality, and the extra energy to stage a comeback, with a quick turnaround to start the next series weighed on them, and took their legs out the last part of the last two games, and that the minutes of the regular season by now are mostly a thing of the past (again I conceded that may not be the case). Green had 6 days of rest before game 6. That is generally enough time to get your legs back. Playing center almost the whole game in game 6 might have had an impact, but by and large, Greene was the most rested of the major players coming into game 6 and 7, along with Love.