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"Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
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cagy cager Offline
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Post: #1
"Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
No, they don’t. I thought you were more aware, 222, and not so naïve. How you could possibly think that you, or any fan, would see things coaches don’t is beyond comprehension. When do you think you see these things? Where did you learn to evaluate players? Do you even ever consider it is a long season and a career for most players that is 4 times longer than the 30+ game season each year? You think maybe the coaches consider more than just an eye test as to talent? Think maybe they are teaching for the long haul? Do you realize these coaches start with these guys in April preparing for the season? They intensify individual and small group workouts all through June and then go out and scan the countryside for talent during July when they compare their guys (and their developmental needs) to the guys they have on the roster. Then, when school starts they have dozens of practices (2+ hours each) until the first game in mid November. Not to mention, they FILM every practice and the coaches pick apart and analyze each player and his strengths and deficiencies by watching and re-watching the practice tapes. They sit with players and talk about their development, show the guys pertinent film clips and work up practice plans for each days practice to ensure they are working on areas that require improvement. Then the games start and each coach watches multiple games of each opponent (usually at least 5 with clips from as many others as possible). They look at match-ups to determine what they can exploit in the opponent and what each NIU guy brings to those matchups, offensively and defensively. They also consider who is playing as hard as they need to, who is working on their game on their own (getting in the gym for extra shots, etc) and what needs to be done to motivate each individual guy to perform at his highest level and to grow and get better. Sometimes there may be lessons taught through watching from the bench or being rewarded with playing time for executing what has been taught, what has been stressed, what is demanded of each player, each drill in practice, each possession in the game and each day in the classroom.
How you or any fan could actually believe you know more about a team or an individual player and their needs and ability to help win a game much less get ready for March than the professional coaches know, is beyond me. You seem to discount or are not aware of the thousands of hours these coaches put in during the off season and all season long Let’s look at what these coaches, with nearly 100 years combined of playing and coaching basketball at the highest levels under some of the best coaches ever, bring to the and compare that to your puny resume of watching some basketball sometimes:

MM: 4 year starter on NCAA teams at MSU. 5 years as professional basketball player in Europe (averaged 25 per game). 4 years assistant coach at Central Michigan.10 years as assistant to Tom Izzo at MSU with the last few being the Associate Head Coach. 4 years as Head Coach at NIU. Prior to his arrival at NIU, Montgomery was named one of the top five high-major assistant coaches in the country by FoxSports.com in 2010, while Rivals.com put him on its list of "10 Assistant Coaches Ready to Move Up." In addition, FoxSports.com national college basketball writer Jeff Goodman named Montgomery the top assistant coach in the Big Ten Conference based on a poll of league coaches.

Jon Borovich: Associate Head Coach at NIU: Played at CMU for 4 years—recruited by Monty. 2 years as Graduate Assistant at MSU where he did video analysis. 2 years as Director of Basketball Operations at Dayton. assistant coach at Oakland University for two years, 4 years Assistant Coach at Dayton and 4 years as Asst at NIU.

Lou Dawkins: Played 4 years for J.D. Barnett and Tubby Smith at Tulsa. Coached 13 years in High School where his record was 261-38 including 2 state championships in 7 years as Head Coach at Saginaw H.S. His Trojans finished 2007 ranked second nationally by MaxPreps and in 2008 they were fourth in the USA Today Super 25. Dawkins was named the national coach of the year in 2007. He was also the Basketball Coaches Association of Michigan Coach of the Year in 2007 and the Michigan AP Coach of the Year in 2007 and 2008. 4 years as assistant at NIU.

Jason Larson: began his collegiate coaching career as a student assistant at Grand Valley before being promoted to a full-time assistant coaching role for the 2004-05 season, Following that season, Larson moved on to Western Michigan where he spent two seasons as the Coordinator of Basketball Operations under Steve Hawkins. Prior to coming to NIU, Larson was a member of the basketball staff at the University of Utah for four years. He began his time with the Utes as Video Coordinator in 2007-08 before becoming Director of Player Development for his final three seasons in Salt Lake City under head coach Jim Boylen. Jason spent 2 years at NIU as Director of Basketball Operations; his primary responsibilities included scheduling, budgeting, travel, camps and on-campus recruiting. He has been an NIU assistant for 2 years.

Chad Pecka: in his fourth season as a member of the NIU men's basketball staff in 2015-16. Pecka was promoted to Director of Player Development/Operations in 2013-14 after working as Video Coordinator in 2012-13. Chad was a graduate assistant at the University of Texas-Pan American, working under former NIU assistant coach Ryan Marks for two seasons. Pecka was in charge of film break down, opponent scouting, in-and-out of season strength and conditioning programs and also served as the Camp Director while at UTPA.
During the 2007-08 season, Pecka worked for the NBA's Indiana Pacers. Pecka assisted the basketball coaching staff as well as the head strength coach with all practices, games and player workouts. Pecka has also had work experience as a strength and skill development coach for the following organizations: Athletes Performance Institute, Impact Basketball Academy, and Joy of the Game.
Sean Sims: In his first season as a graduate assistant with the NIU men’s basketball program in 2015-16. Sims is responsible for video breakdown, assists in scouting, player development and day-to-day operations of Huskie basketball.

Sims joins the Huskies following four seasons as a student manager at Ohio University, including the last two as the Bobcats’ head manager. During his time at Ohio, Sims worked under current Illinois head coach John Groce, current Boston College head coach Jim Christian and Saul Phillips.

So please stop with the ridiculous notion that you, or any fan, knows more about the game much less any individual player’s skills and ability to contribute to a winning program.
(This post was last modified: 12-23-2015 10:57 AM by cagy cager.)
12-23-2015 10:43 AM
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NIU17 Offline
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Post: #2
RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
Yeah, but I played in rec leagues for over 30 years and have been watching basketball for over 40 years! 03-lmfao

But on the serious side... Your points are excellent and MM and assistants backgrounds are very impressive. Sometimes the most athletic, most talented, players aren't ready to replace the more experienced players yet. Fans don't always see the little things, how the players fit into the system, the bigger picture, how coaches are trying to ease the freshmen into the college environment, etc.

But that's what fans do. We have some knowledge and think we know better. I do it with the teams I root for all the time. It's only natural to be an armchair coach, especially when your team isn't doing well. Fanatics still question Coach Saban or Coach Izzo when their team loses. NIU coaches won't be immune to it.
12-23-2015 11:04 AM
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dekalb222 Offline
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Post: #3
RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
I figured you would post something like this. What you are saying is coaches are always right and fans are always wrong when they disagree with a coach. Whey do coaches get fired then? As of Dec 23rd 2015 who do you think has played better and is a better basketball player, Lytwan Porter or Michael Orris? I support NIU basketball and Monty 100% but that doesn't mean I agree with everything they do.
12-23-2015 11:12 AM
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NIU17 Offline
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RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
(12-23-2015 11:12 AM)dekalb222 Wrote:  I figured you would post something like this. What you are saying is coaches are always right and fans are always wrong when they disagree with a coach. Whey do coaches get fired then? As of Dec 23rd 2015 who do you think has played better and is a better basketball player, Lytwan Porter or Michael Orris? I support NIU basketball and Monty 100% but that doesn't mean I agree with everything they do.
Porter might be better right now. But do you see all the little things he does wrong? It is the beginning of the season of his freshman year. If he is better than Orris, his playing time will increase. We need to be patient.
12-23-2015 11:18 AM
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dekalb222 Offline
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Post: #5
RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
The coaches have great credentials to be a coach, I'am not trying to be a coach. I am a fan of NIU Athletics. As a fan I have a opinion about things and as a fan I am allowed to voice them. It doesn't make me right but it also doesn't make me wrong. Let's see if Portwr doesn't start getting more minutes than Orris, I bet he does. I also bet Porter is the starting point guard next year over Orris.
12-23-2015 11:19 AM
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dekalb222 Offline
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Post: #6
RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
Yes, I see things that Porter does wrong. I also see many things that Orris does wrong and is just plain bad at.
12-23-2015 11:21 AM
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cagy cager Offline
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Post: #7
RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
no one questions Porter's obvious talent...and that cream should rise to the top...but it may take whatever time he needs to assure the staff he can be trusted in big situations. While many complain about the schedule, last night seemed like a good growth experience for Porter. He seemed to try to get to the right spots--attempted to overcome his gambling tendencies and his innate quickness allowed him to recover and compensate for some "chasing" Overall I think it was his most impressive game and he sure in hell is fun to watch...probably the most exciting player on this team with a HUGE (sorry, Donald) upside.

Oh, and most times coaches get fired cuz the fan base, who puts out the money, are impatient and put the pressure on the AD who simply wants to keep his job so he gives in to unrealistic expectations or imperfect evaluations by loud mouth know it alls.
(This post was last modified: 12-23-2015 11:32 AM by cagy cager.)
12-23-2015 11:30 AM
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NIU17 Offline
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Post: #8
RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
(12-23-2015 11:21 AM)dekalb222 Wrote:  Yes, I see things that Porter does wrong. I also see many things that Orris does wrong and is just plain bad at.
I think the freshmen are very talented, but I'm not talking about missed shots or bad passes. I'm talking about running the offense and playing team defense. It's good to have veterans to make sure things flow out there and assignments aren't missed. It's 11 games into the season and conference play hasn't started. Having freshmen playing most of the minutes this early in the season, unless they're studs, isn't likely for most college teams. By middle of the conference schedule, the freshmen should be much more ready and experienced, and their minutes will go up if they play well. It's not like they are sitting on the bench the whole game. They are getting valuable experience and learning. And our schedule has been relatively easy and we're winning. It has been a nice transition for them and the team has been successful while they learn.
12-23-2015 11:34 AM
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cagy cager Offline
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Post: #9
RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
NIU17 gets it..........as does Shaq who wrote this in another thread:

"You guys can blame the coaches all you want, that doesn't motivate a player to actually work. The fact is, there are a lot of elite players who have always had more ability than effort. As the competition rises, the sad thing is their effort does not and players with ability and effort pass them by. If you have a gift and have never needed to but in effort to be great, it's difficult to learn effort. The writing is on the wall with Huff. It's clear that he has ability. At this level however, effort is required. More so in a team environment. You cant have every player in your squad putting in the effort and one not. The one becomes a cancer. You say they should punish him to get him to buy into the system "The Hard Way"? How do you punish an elite player who put no effort? By limiting his playing time. It happened during the season. When he puts in the work, he gets rewarded by increased time. Missing blocking assignment is a reflection of lack of study and prep. Lining up wrong... Lack of study. Missing the whole and improvising.. lack of study. Huff needs to grow up and be the player that his ability has shown he can be. No way can you sit Joel who studies and preps, makes the proper reads and picks up his blocking assignments. Why this gets beat to death is beyond me. Huff needs to grow up. The coaches know who he is and how he effects the team. His effort needs to be on par with his peers or he sits, regardless of ability. I'll support that 100%."

One of the reasons our graduation success rate is high is because our staff holds the players accountable. The inmates can not run the asylum."

He could just as easily be talking about basketball players--Remember Abdul Nader? He got to Iowa State and accepted the coaching he wasn't ready to accept at NIU and his natural talent shone through.
(This post was last modified: 12-23-2015 11:39 AM by cagy cager.)
12-23-2015 11:38 AM
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huskiealum03 Offline
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Post: #10
RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
fans can always chime in right or wrong. thats why we are fans. that said...coaches see things that expose players strengths or weaknesses in practice and have reasons for doing things. the likelihood that a fan actually sees things before a coach is very low, but i don't rule this out as a possibility. anything is possible.
12-23-2015 11:39 AM
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cagy cager Offline
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RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
yeah, and it is possible a guy who never coached at all before could lead an NBA team to a 24-0 start.........of course he better have a basketball pedigree the likes of a Walton.
12-23-2015 11:41 AM
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NIU17 Offline
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RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
(12-23-2015 11:41 AM)cagy cager Wrote:  yeah, and it is possible a guy who never coached at all before could lead an NBA team to a 24-0 start.........of course he better have a basketball pedigree the likes of a Walton.
And a team that won the NBA championship the year before. And has the MVP of the league and great talent around him.
12-23-2015 11:43 AM
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DeKalb57 Offline
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Post: #13
RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
Coaches are also regular people who can be wrong/right, have bias, harbor feelings of one nature or another, have favorites, etc...

Putting in more time doesn't necessarily result in a better decision in anything - even coaching. It only demonstrates that someone has put in more time - nothing more, nothing less. While this SHOULD lead to a better decision, nothing is guaranteed. The notion that it DOES result in a better decision 100% of the time is ill founded.
12-23-2015 12:58 PM
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badmoonrising13 Offline
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Post: #14
RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
With Cagey's
(This post was last modified: 12-23-2015 01:06 PM by badmoonrising13.)
12-23-2015 01:05 PM
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dekalb222 Offline
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Post: #15
RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
There is no doubt that Monty feels Porter and Wilson are and will be better players than Orris. I have seen Orris for almost a year and a half now. Orris is as good as he is going to be which I believe isn't as good as a couple freshman already are. The coaches have their reasons for Orris's playing time. I as a fan don't need to see more of him but do want too see the young guys get as much experience as they can.
12-23-2015 03:21 PM
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cagy cager Offline
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Post: #16
RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
Then, 57, let me put it another way – five sets of full-time professional coaching eyes are likely to be much more trustworthy than a single set of eyes from an inexperienced person off the street. It isn't like these decisions get made and they vacuum there hours and hours of meetings we're all players and their pluses and minuses are viewed on tape and discussed at North tea are viewed on tape and discussed at nausea. Even then these evaluations are not set in stone but rather are a fluid work in progress based on daily performance and improvement
(This post was last modified: 12-23-2015 04:30 PM by cagy cager.)
12-23-2015 04:25 PM
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Post: #17
RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
(12-23-2015 04:25 PM)cagy cager Wrote:  Then, 57, let me put it another way – five sets of full-time professional coaching I are likely to be much more trustworthy than a single set of eyes from an inexperienced person off the street. It isn't like these decisions get made and they vacuum there hours and hours of meetings we're all players and their pluses and minuses are viewed on tape and discussed at North tea are viewed on tape and discussed at nausea. Even then these evaluations are not set in stone but rather are a fluid work in progress based on daily performance and improvement

Do you trust and believe all politicians? I don't know politics, but I certainly know the issues they talk about and deal with, and I have my opinions if they are good or full of crap. So, why can't fans evaluate players and coaches?
12-23-2015 04:31 PM
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cagy cager Offline
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Post: #18
RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
They can evaluate all they want I just wouldn't put any stock in it and say have no background and no significant first-hand observations. We all brush our teeth does that mean you want to come to me to be your dentist ? J
12-23-2015 04:41 PM
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Rabid Squirrel Offline
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Post: #19
RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
(12-23-2015 04:31 PM)Dog Fan Wrote:  
(12-23-2015 04:25 PM)cagy cager Wrote:  Then, 57, let me put it another way – five sets of full-time professional coaching I are likely to be much more trustworthy than a single set of eyes from an inexperienced person off the street. It isn't like these decisions get made and they vacuum there hours and hours of meetings we're all players and their pluses and minuses are viewed on tape and discussed at North tea are viewed on tape and discussed at nausea. Even then these evaluations are not set in stone but rather are a fluid work in progress based on daily performance and improvement

Do you trust and believe all politicians? I don't know politics, but I certainly know the issues they talk about and deal with, and I have my opinions if they are good or full of crap. So, why can't fans evaluate players and coaches?

Politicians is a poor analogy. They have special interest, party lines and voter polls driving them. All people are fallible, and once in a great while the average joe will be right. The part that gets people annoyed is you are going to be wrong most likely 99/100 compared to the professionals, yet the know it all fans cling to that 1/100 and say - SEE! I was right! I knew it! And disregard the 99 times they were rong.
12-23-2015 06:23 PM
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huskie1stdown Offline
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Post: #20
RE: "Sometimes fans see things before the coaches"
Patton had people on his staff. I guess he should not have been fired because he saw progress.
Brick by brick.
12-23-2015 06:25 PM
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