(12-13-2015 11:34 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(12-13-2015 05:06 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Putin is playing one game very well with NATO.

He's testing the limits. And, truth be told, the US public would not support a war to protect Turkey.

If it were to come to war between Russia and Turkey, it would be the closest thing to Sudetenland that we've faced in 80 years. As much as I hate Erdogan and the way that Turkey is leaning, the way it is fostering the refugee crisis from Syria, I'd support intervening on their behalf. Russia is just worse, and arguably a bigger threat to the west than either Turkey, Iran, or ISIS.

But, it's way premature to think this will lead to anything.

(12-12-2015 09:47 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  Putin has a better claim to Constantinople than the Turks. I hope he takes it.

Istanbul is the cultural capital of Turkey, so it's hard to understand what you're suggesting here. But, then, Putin had no claim over the Crimea outside of Russian ethnic cleansing...


For context on the Hagia Sophia, it is currently a museum, but is far more likely to re-open as a mosque than a church...

Reopening Hagia Sophia to prayers is my dream, Turkish tourism minister says - RELIGION

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/reopeni...sCatID=393 Wrote:Culture and Tourism Minister Yalçın Topçu has said he wished for the Hagia Sophia museum in Istanbul to be reopened to prayers for Muslims.

“Opening the Hagia Sophia to prayers [for Muslims] is my personal dream, my goal, my ambition. Although there are several debates over its judicial status, the issue is more of a political debate,” said Topçu, who was nominated as culture and tourism minister in the interim government by Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu ahead of the snap polls scheduled for Nov. 1.

Topçu, the former chair of the Islamist-nationalist Great Union Party (BBP), was a surprising name in the new cabinet.

“There is an international dimension too, because the symbolic meaning of the Hagia Sophia is great. The final decision will be given by this nation rather than the world. A referendum might be the most serious solution,” he said.

He also said demands for the museum to become a mosque again have been reflected as a “radical demand” by the media.

Turkey didn't build the city or the church. The Orthodox did. Turkey took it. I have no problem with someone taking it back. Pushing Turkey to the East of Constantinople makes both cultural, historical, and geographical sense.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

(12-14-2015 06:23 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(12-13-2015 11:34 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(12-13-2015 05:06 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Putin is playing one game very well with NATO.

He's testing the limits. And, truth be told, the US public would not support a war to protect Turkey.

If it were to come to war between Russia and Turkey, it would be the closest thing to Sudetenland that we've faced in 80 years. As much as I hate Erdogan and the way that Turkey is leaning, the way it is fostering the refugee crisis from Syria, I'd support intervening on their behalf. Russia is just worse, and arguably a bigger threat to the west than either Turkey, Iran, or ISIS.

But, it's way premature to think this will lead to anything.

(12-12-2015 09:47 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  Putin has a better claim to Constantinople than the Turks. I hope he takes it.

Istanbul is the cultural capital of Turkey, so it's hard to understand what you're suggesting here. But, then, Putin had no claim over the Crimea outside of Russian ethnic cleansing...


For context on the Hagia Sophia, it is currently a museum, but is far more likely to re-open as a mosque than a church...

Reopening Hagia Sophia to prayers is my dream, Turkish tourism minister says - RELIGION

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/reopeni...sCatID=393 Wrote:Culture and Tourism Minister Yalçın Topçu has said he wished for the Hagia Sophia museum in Istanbul to be reopened to prayers for Muslims.

“Opening the Hagia Sophia to prayers [for Muslims] is my personal dream, my goal, my ambition. Although there are several debates over its judicial status, the issue is more of a political debate,” said Topçu, who was nominated as culture and tourism minister in the interim government by Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu ahead of the snap polls scheduled for Nov. 1.

Topçu, the former chair of the Islamist-nationalist Great Union Party (BBP), was a surprising name in the new cabinet.

“There is an international dimension too, because the symbolic meaning of the Hagia Sophia is great. The final decision will be given by this nation rather than the world. A referendum might be the most serious solution,” he said.

He also said demands for the museum to become a mosque again have been reflected as a “radical demand” by the media.

Turkey didn't build the city or the church. The Orthodox did. Turkey took it. I have no problem with someone taking it back. Pushing Turkey to the East of Constantinople makes both cultural, historical, and geographical sense.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

So the Greeks always lived in Asia Minor and the Turks stole their land? And how about the land of Israel? Didn't that land belong to the Caananites and not the Jews? Maybe Russia should side with the Native Americans and fight the just war to retake their ancestral lands...

Supporting Russia in any endeavor is a mistake. Putin wants power and doesn't care how he does it or who he has to pretend to be for the time being. The Turks suck, but out of all the Islamic countries out there, they are be of the few (or only?) that has a secular gov't today. Food for thought.

(12-14-2015 07:42 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(12-14-2015 06:23 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(12-13-2015 11:34 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(12-13-2015 05:06 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Putin is playing one game very well with NATO.

He's testing the limits. And, truth be told, the US public would not support a war to protect Turkey.

If it were to come to war between Russia and Turkey, it would be the closest thing to Sudetenland that we've faced in 80 years. As much as I hate Erdogan and the way that Turkey is leaning, the way it is fostering the refugee crisis from Syria, I'd support intervening on their behalf. Russia is just worse, and arguably a bigger threat to the west than either Turkey, Iran, or ISIS.

But, it's way premature to think this will lead to anything.

(12-12-2015 09:47 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  Putin has a better claim to Constantinople than the Turks. I hope he takes it.

Istanbul is the cultural capital of Turkey, so it's hard to understand what you're suggesting here. But, then, Putin had no claim over the Crimea outside of Russian ethnic cleansing...


For context on the Hagia Sophia, it is currently a museum, but is far more likely to re-open as a mosque than a church...

Reopening Hagia Sophia to prayers is my dream, Turkish tourism minister says - RELIGION

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/reopeni...sCatID=393 Wrote:Culture and Tourism Minister Yalçın Topçu has said he wished for the Hagia Sophia museum in Istanbul to be reopened to prayers for Muslims.

“Opening the Hagia Sophia to prayers [for Muslims] is my personal dream, my goal, my ambition. Although there are several debates over its judicial status, the issue is more of a political debate,” said Topçu, who was nominated as culture and tourism minister in the interim government by Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu ahead of the snap polls scheduled for Nov. 1.

Topçu, the former chair of the Islamist-nationalist Great Union Party (BBP), was a surprising name in the new cabinet.

“There is an international dimension too, because the symbolic meaning of the Hagia Sophia is great. The final decision will be given by this nation rather than the world. A referendum might be the most serious solution,” he said.

He also said demands for the museum to become a mosque again have been reflected as a “radical demand” by the media.

Turkey didn't build the city or the church. The Orthodox did. Turkey took it. I have no problem with someone taking it back. Pushing Turkey to the East of Constantinople makes both cultural, historical, and geographical sense.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

So the Greeks always lived in Asia Minor and the Turks stole their land? And how about the land of Israel? Didn't that land belong to the Caananites and not the Jews? Maybe Russia should side with the Native Americans and fight the just war to retake their ancestral lands...

Supporting Russia in any endeavor is a mistake. Putin wants power and doesn't care how he does it or who he has to pretend to be for the time being. The Turks suck, but out of all the Islamic countries out there, they are be of the few (or only?) that has a secular gov't today. Food for thought.

I wouldn't support Russia. I would support staying out of it (not worth American lives either way), but would root for Russia. Kind of like a Super Bowl between the Redskins and the Patriots (I am a Giants fan). I don't like the Patriots, but I'd be rooting for them in that game. Turks stole a lot of land, as you mentioned. They have been among the worst political actors in the history of the world.

(12-14-2015 08:22 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(12-14-2015 07:42 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(12-14-2015 06:23 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(12-13-2015 11:34 PM)I45owl Wrote:  

(12-13-2015 05:06 PM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  Putin is playing one game very well with NATO.

He's testing the limits. And, truth be told, the US public would not support a war to protect Turkey.

If it were to come to war between Russia and Turkey, it would be the closest thing to Sudetenland that we've faced in 80 years. As much as I hate Erdogan and the way that Turkey is leaning, the way it is fostering the refugee crisis from Syria, I'd support intervening on their behalf. Russia is just worse, and arguably a bigger threat to the west than either Turkey, Iran, or ISIS.

But, it's way premature to think this will lead to anything.

(12-12-2015 09:47 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  Putin has a better claim to Constantinople than the Turks. I hope he takes it.

Istanbul is the cultural capital of Turkey, so it's hard to understand what you're suggesting here. But, then, Putin had no claim over the Crimea outside of Russian ethnic cleansing...


For context on the Hagia Sophia, it is currently a museum, but is far more likely to re-open as a mosque than a church...

Reopening Hagia Sophia to prayers is my dream, Turkish tourism minister says - RELIGION

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/reopeni...sCatID=393 Wrote:Culture and Tourism Minister Yalçın Topçu has said he wished for the Hagia Sophia museum in Istanbul to be reopened to prayers for Muslims.

“Opening the Hagia Sophia to prayers [for Muslims] is my personal dream, my goal, my ambition. Although there are several debates over its judicial status, the issue is more of a political debate,” said Topçu, who was nominated as culture and tourism minister in the interim government by Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu ahead of the snap polls scheduled for Nov. 1.

Topçu, the former chair of the Islamist-nationalist Great Union Party (BBP), was a surprising name in the new cabinet.

“There is an international dimension too, because the symbolic meaning of the Hagia Sophia is great. The final decision will be given by this nation rather than the world. A referendum might be the most serious solution,” he said.

He also said demands for the museum to become a mosque again have been reflected as a “radical demand” by the media.

Turkey didn't build the city or the church. The Orthodox did. Turkey took it. I have no problem with someone taking it back. Pushing Turkey to the East of Constantinople makes both cultural, historical, and geographical sense.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

So the Greeks always lived in Asia Minor and the Turks stole their land? And how about the land of Israel? Didn't that land belong to the Caananites and not the Jews? Maybe Russia should side with the Native Americans and fight the just war to retake their ancestral lands...

Supporting Russia in any endeavor is a mistake. Putin wants power and doesn't care how he does it or who he has to pretend to be for the time being. The Turks suck, but out of all the Islamic countries out there, they are be of the few (or only?) that has a secular gov't today. Food for thought.

I wouldn't support Russia. I would support staying out of it (not worth American lives either way), but would root for Russia. Kind of like a Super Bowl between the Redskins and the Patriots (I am a Giants fan). I don't like the Patriots, but I'd be rooting for them in that game. Turks stole a lot of land, as you mentioned. They have been among the worst political actors in the history of the world.

My point was that the Turks always had a claim to Asia Minor before the Greeks and the Orthodox held Constantinople and that claims to land in this situation is ridiculous. Besides, have you ever seen an empire in history that didn't act as the worst political actor in the world? All depends on who you ask.

(12-14-2015 08:36 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(12-14-2015 08:22 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(12-14-2015 07:42 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(12-14-2015 06:23 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(12-13-2015 11:34 PM)I45owl Wrote:  If it were to come to war between Russia and Turkey, it would be the closest thing to Sudetenland that we've faced in 80 years. As much as I hate Erdogan and the way that Turkey is leaning, the way it is fostering the refugee crisis from Syria, I'd support intervening on their behalf. Russia is just worse, and arguably a bigger threat to the west than either Turkey, Iran, or ISIS.

But, it's way premature to think this will lead to anything.


Istanbul is the cultural capital of Turkey, so it's hard to understand what you're suggesting here. But, then, Putin had no claim over the Crimea outside of Russian ethnic cleansing...


For context on the Hagia Sophia, it is currently a museum, but is far more likely to re-open as a mosque than a church...

Reopening Hagia Sophia to prayers is my dream, Turkish tourism minister says - RELIGION

Turkey didn't build the city or the church. The Orthodox did. Turkey took it. I have no problem with someone taking it back. Pushing Turkey to the East of Constantinople makes both cultural, historical, and geographical sense.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

So the Greeks always lived in Asia Minor and the Turks stole their land? And how about the land of Israel? Didn't that land belong to the Caananites and not the Jews? Maybe Russia should side with the Native Americans and fight the just war to retake their ancestral lands...

Supporting Russia in any endeavor is a mistake. Putin wants power and doesn't care how he does it or who he has to pretend to be for the time being. The Turks suck, but out of all the Islamic countries out there, they are be of the few (or only?) that has a secular gov't today. Food for thought.

I wouldn't support Russia. I would support staying out of it (not worth American lives either way), but would root for Russia. Kind of like a Super Bowl between the Redskins and the Patriots (I am a Giants fan). I don't like the Patriots, but I'd be rooting for them in that game. Turks stole a lot of land, as you mentioned. They have been among the worst political actors in the history of the world.

My point was that the Turks always had a claim to Asia Minor before the Greeks and the Orthodox held Constantinople and that claims to land in this situation is ridiculous. Besides, have you ever seen an empire in history that didn't act as the worst political actor in the world? All depends on who you ask.

Who built the city?

Really though? What's so bad about Russia?

Putin being Putin it seems. Isn't the Hagia Sophia more of a museum these days?

Take it back for the rightful owners. Go Russia.

(12-14-2015 08:50 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(12-14-2015 08:36 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(12-14-2015 08:22 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(12-14-2015 07:42 AM)miko33 Wrote:  

(12-14-2015 06:23 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  Turkey didn't build the city or the church. The Orthodox did. Turkey took it. I have no problem with someone taking it back. Pushing Turkey to the East of Constantinople makes both cultural, historical, and geographical sense.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

So the Greeks always lived in Asia Minor and the Turks stole their land? And how about the land of Israel? Didn't that land belong to the Caananites and not the Jews? Maybe Russia should side with the Native Americans and fight the just war to retake their ancestral lands...

Supporting Russia in any endeavor is a mistake. Putin wants power and doesn't care how he does it or who he has to pretend to be for the time being. The Turks suck, but out of all the Islamic countries out there, they are be of the few (or only?) that has a secular gov't today. Food for thought.

I wouldn't support Russia. I would support staying out of it (not worth American lives either way), but would root for Russia. Kind of like a Super Bowl between the Redskins and the Patriots (I am a Giants fan). I don't like the Patriots, but I'd be rooting for them in that game. Turks stole a lot of land, as you mentioned. They have been among the worst political actors in the history of the world.

My point was that the Turks always had a claim to Asia Minor before the Greeks and the Orthodox held Constantinople and that claims to land in this situation is ridiculous. Besides, have you ever seen an empire in history that didn't act as the worst political actor in the world? All depends on who you ask.

Who built the city?

Who are the rightful owners of the land? It never really belonged to the Greeks in the first place. Byzantium was a creation of the Roman Empire split, it's just that the culture of Greece spread thru the eastern part of the empire. Besides, the Byzantine Empire ceased to be a political entity for a long time now. They would be the ones who would be the "rightful owners" - definitely not the Greeks and surely not the Russian Orthodox Church.

(12-14-2015 09:26 AM)blunderbuss Wrote:  Really though? What's so bad about Russia?

IDK, only they have enough nuclear weapons to destroy humanity several times over... Anyone who thinks that the reemergence of an Islamic Caliphate is a greater danger to the world than a new Russian power is crazy.

The rightful owners are who built on it. If the Turks have the right to take it, the Orthodox have the right to take it back. Go Russia!

(12-14-2015 09:28 AM)VA49er Wrote:  Putin being Putin it seems. Isn't the Hagia Sophia more of a museum these days?

Sounds like he is generating his inner Trump.

(12-14-2015 10:21 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  The rightful owners are who built on it. If the Turks have the right to take it, the Orthodox have the right to take it back. Go Russia!

Well the builders would be the Greeks. The Russians were never part of the Roman or Byzantine Empire.

(12-14-2015 10:23 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-14-2015 10:21 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  The rightful owners are who built on it. If the Turks have the right to take it, the Orthodox have the right to take it back. Go Russia!

The Russians were never part of the Byzantine Empire.

Technically no, but Byzantines did Christianize Kievan Rus (precursor to Russia) around 980 AD and developed both a cultural and religious relationship accordingly. Thus why Russia considers Moscow the "Third Rome" after Rome itself and Constantinople. Passed the torch so to speak.

(12-14-2015 10:23 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-14-2015 10:21 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  The rightful owners are who built on it. If the Turks have the right to take it, the Orthodox have the right to take it back. Go Russia!

Well the builders would be the Greeks. The Russians were never part of the Roman or Byzantine Empire.

Maybe we should put it up as a referendum for the Greeks to decide: Turkey or Russia. I wonder who would win?

The Greeks should find the balls they lost at the end of the Hellenistic Period and take it back. With Mother Russia's help of course.

(12-14-2015 10:31 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  The Greeks should find the balls they lost at the end of the Hellenistic Period and take it back. With Mother Russia's help of course.

Greeks can't even afford breakfast much less threaten anybody. Russia is just bellyaching. Besides, it's embarrassing to have one of your jets shot down.

(12-14-2015 10:31 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  The Greeks should find the balls they lost at the end of the Hellenistic Period and take it back. With Mother Russia's help of course.

They were given it back and lost it after the First World War.

But this guy put Turkey on the map at the expense of a weak Greece.

(12-14-2015 10:38 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(12-14-2015 10:31 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  The Greeks should find the balls they lost at the end of the Hellenistic Period and take it back. With Mother Russia's help of course.

They were given it back and lost it after the First World War.

But this guy put Turkey on the map at the expense of a weak Greece.

Yep. Probably one of the most influential figures of the 20th century.

(12-14-2015 10:59 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  

(12-14-2015 10:38 AM)HeartOfDixie Wrote:  

(12-14-2015 10:31 AM)shiftyeagle Wrote:  The Greeks should find the balls they lost at the end of the Hellenistic Period and take it back. With Mother Russia's help of course.

They were given it back and lost it after the First World War.

But this guy put Turkey on the map at the expense of a weak Greece.

Yep. Probably one of the most influential figures of the 20th century.

I agree. Probably the main reason we have Turkey like it is today instead of a Turkey more resembling Iran, etc.