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Why fire baliff
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junrice Offline
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Post: #1
Why fire baliff
what could be the worst scenario after could be if we fire Baliff, we hired another worse coach, then fire him again and find next right one.


Wake up, If we are happy with top 100 football program, Baliff is one of the best we could get. We need some miracle here, not mediocre. we need some RICE here, not Baliff.
11-08-2015 04:10 PM
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Antarius Offline
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Post: #2
RE: Why fire baliff
As I have posted many times here, the difference between 1-11 and 6-6 and 9-3 in CUSA is almost negligible to the outside world. So I do not see a downside at all (other than it being more frustrating for the handful of fans we have)

And we can look at our attendance numbers to back that up. They clearly show that no matter how many times we repeat the awesomeness of winning CUSA and 3 straight bowls, it's a self-pleasuring commentary that no one outside the hedges cares about.
11-08-2015 04:54 PM
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OWLmanz Offline
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Post: #3
RE: Why fire baliff
(11-08-2015 04:54 PM)Antarius Wrote:  As I have posted many times here, the difference between 1-11 and 6-6 and 9-3 in CUSA is almost negligible to the outside world. So I do not see a downside at all (other than it being more frustrating for the handful of fans we have)

And we can look at our attendance numbers to back that up. They clearly show that no matter how many times we repeat the awesomeness of winning CUSA and 3 straight bowls, it's a self-pleasuring commentary that no one outside the hedges cares about.

Nor should they. Sports are for the school's fans entertainment primarily... 04-cheers UH can't even sell out their small stadium with and undefeated team. Houston's college FB interest is UT Whorns and TAMU$...
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2015 05:11 PM by OWLmanz.)
11-08-2015 05:10 PM
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Ranger Offline
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Post: #4
RE: Why fire baliff
(11-08-2015 05:10 PM)OWLmanz Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 04:54 PM)Antarius Wrote:  As I have posted many times here, the difference between 1-11 and 6-6 and 9-3 in CUSA is almost negligible to the outside world. So I do not see a downside at all (other than it being more frustrating for the handful of fans we have)

And we can look at our attendance numbers to back that up. They clearly show that no matter how many times we repeat the awesomeness of winning CUSA and 3 straight bowls, it's a self-pleasuring commentary that no one outside the hedges cares about.

Nor should they. Sports are for the school's fans entertainment primarily... 04-cheers UH can't even sell out their small stadium with and undefeated team. Houston's college FB interest is UT Whorns and TAMU$...

The problem is, at least as far as football is concerned, with the level of football we have, our conference, and our quality of play, as well as the results, our fan base is dwindling rapidly.

There is a quote, often attributed to Einstein, that you cannot solve problems with the same mindset that created it. Better put, if you current mindset has not solved your problem, you different mindset. By analogy, the current management has not solved the problem, and there is no indication that it will do so. Seems like time for a change.


On a somewhat related but not really related note, I always am amazed when incumbents promise that they will solve all sorts of specific problems if they are re-elected. If they can and will solve them, why have they not done it already.
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2015 05:16 PM by Ranger.)
11-08-2015 05:15 PM
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Antarius Offline
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Post: #5
RE: Why fire baliff
(11-08-2015 05:10 PM)OWLmanz Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 04:54 PM)Antarius Wrote:  As I have posted many times here, the difference between 1-11 and 6-6 and 9-3 in CUSA is almost negligible to the outside world. So I do not see a downside at all (other than it being more frustrating for the handful of fans we have)

And we can look at our attendance numbers to back that up. They clearly show that no matter how many times we repeat the awesomeness of winning CUSA and 3 straight bowls, it's a self-pleasuring commentary that no one outside the hedges cares about.

Nor should they. Sports are for the school's fans entertainment primarily... 04-cheers UH can't even sell out their small stadium with and undefeated team. Houston's college FB interest is UT Whorns and TAMU$...

If that's the driving attitude, then we are better suited for Division III.

To me, sports are for marketing, brand awareness and university outreach.
11-08-2015 05:29 PM
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jhruzek Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Why fire baliff
If marketing is the goal, making a bowl year after year, regardless of which bowl, achieves the goal. You cannot tell me that the 4th quarter of the Hawaii Bowl didn't achieve the marketing goals of the University.
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2015 06:15 PM by jhruzek.)
11-08-2015 06:14 PM
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OldOwl Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Why fire baliff
Of course Bailiff should be fired and after this season. He has regressed in a weaker conference. We had the schedule in our favor and we looked terrible. How the hell could UTEP beat us? How did Old Dominion beat us last year at home and their first year in Div I football. Suppose UTSA beat us, you still want him back. I think the team has quit on him because he puts them in a situation where they can't win. Bailiff cant be a head couch because he is too nice. He be great PR man. [ quote='jhruzek' pid='12616142' dateline='1447024496']
If marketing is the goal, making a bowl year after year, regardless of which bowl, achieves the goal. You cannot tell me that the 4th quarter of the Hawaii Bowl didn't achieve the marketing goals of the University.
[/quote]
11-08-2015 06:43 PM
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tramile12 Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Why fire baliff
(11-08-2015 06:43 PM)OldOwl Wrote:  Of course Bailiff should be fired and after this season. He has regressed in a weaker conference. We had the schedule in our favor and we looked terrible. How the hell could UTEP beat us? How did Old Dominion beat us last year at home and their first year in Div I football. Suppose UTSA beat us, you still want him back. I think the team has quit on him because he puts them in a situation where they can't win. Bailiff cant be a head couch because he is too nice. He be great PR man. [ quote='jhruzek' pid='12616142' dateline='1447024496']
If marketing is the goal, making a bowl year after year, regardless of which bowl, achieves the goal. You cannot tell me that the 4th quarter of the Hawaii Bowl didn't achieve the marketing goals of the University.
[/quote]

I really, really wish people would quit saying the team "quit" on Bailiff. There is nothing about any of these performances by the team (good, bad or ugly) that would indicate one player out there quit, much less the team. You are doing the team a disservice every time this phrase is uttered. The coaching may have been sub par, and the play calling dead and cowardly, but those players NEVER QUIT. So please stop saying it. YOU are quitting on this team every time you say it.
11-08-2015 07:18 PM
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InterestedX Offline
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Post: #9
RE: Why fire baliff
Amen, tramile. Ridiculous for know-nothings to keep repeating that.
11-08-2015 07:23 PM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #10
RE: Why fire baliff
(11-08-2015 05:15 PM)Ranger Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 05:10 PM)OWLmanz Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 04:54 PM)Antarius Wrote:  As I have posted many times here, the difference between 1-11 and 6-6 and 9-3 in CUSA is almost negligible to the outside world. So I do not see a downside at all (other than it being more frustrating for the handful of fans we have)

And we can look at our attendance numbers to back that up. They clearly show that no matter how many times we repeat the awesomeness of winning CUSA and 3 straight bowls, it's a self-pleasuring commentary that no one outside the hedges cares about.

Nor should they. Sports are for the school's fans entertainment primarily... 04-cheers UH can't even sell out their small stadium with and undefeated team. Houston's college FB interest is UT Whorns and TAMU$...

The problem is, at least as far as football is concerned, with the level of football we have, our conference, and our quality of play, as well as the results, our fan base is dwindling rapidly.

There is a quote, often attributed to Einstein, that you cannot solve problems with the same mindset that created it. Better put, if you current mindset has not solved your problem, you different mindset. By analogy, the current management has not solved the problem, and there is no indication that it will do so. Seems like time for a change.


On a somewhat related but not really related note, I always am amazed when incumbents promise that they will solve all sorts of specific problems if they are re-elected. If they can and will solve them, why have they not done it already.

(11-08-2015 05:29 PM)Antarius Wrote:  If that's the driving attitude, then we are better suited for Division III.

To me, sports are for marketing, brand awareness and university outreach.


Maybe the main problem in marketing Bailiff football at Rice is that potential paying customers are just not seeing all the myriad statistical data that shows that fans' emotional perceptions and gut feelings about Rice football are just dead wrong. If we solve that, then it's possible we fill the stadium for the current product without having to change anything.
11-08-2015 07:41 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Why fire baliff
(11-08-2015 07:18 PM)tramile12 Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 06:43 PM)OldOwl Wrote:  Of course Bailiff should be fired and after this season. He has regressed in a weaker conference. We had the schedule in our favor and we looked terrible. How the hell could UTEP beat us? How did Old Dominion beat us last year at home and their first year in Div I football. Suppose UTSA beat us, you still want him back. I think the team has quit on him because he puts them in a situation where they can't win. Bailiff cant be a head couch because he is too nice. He be great PR man. [ quote='jhruzek' pid='12616142' dateline='1447024496']
If marketing is the goal, making a bowl year after year, regardless of which bowl, achieves the goal. You cannot tell me that the 4th quarter of the Hawaii Bowl didn't achieve the marketing goals of the University.
I really, really wish people would quit saying the team "quit" on Bailiff. There is nothing about any of these performances by the team (good, bad or ugly) that would indicate one player out there quit, much less the team. You are doing the team a disservice every time this phrase is uttered. The coaching may have been sub par, and the play calling dead and cowardly, but those players NEVER QUIT. So please stop saying it. YOU are quitting on this team every time you say it.

I agree 100%. I see no indication of quitting. We have lots of problems. That's not one of them.
11-08-2015 07:49 PM
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Antarius Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Why fire baliff
(11-08-2015 06:14 PM)jhruzek Wrote:  If marketing is the goal, making a bowl year after year, regardless of which bowl, achieves the goal. You cannot tell me that the 4th quarter of the Hawaii Bowl didn't achieve the marketing goals of the University.

Yes I can. What is the tangible benefit achieved? Most of Houston doesn't appear to know or care that we went to and won a bowl, let alone have been to 3.

Attendance is still paltry. Student interested is functionally non existent. The number of fans at HRs without grey hair can be counted on two hands.

We are still firmly irrelevant to the rest of the world. The Hawaii bowl was a ton of fun for the players and us fans , but that is about it. the needle still hasn't moved and won't move until we elevate to a level far higher than beating 6-6 teams in small potatoes bowl games.
11-08-2015 08:26 PM
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OldOwl Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Why fire baliff
We had our chance to at least competitive in the Liberty Bowl and we blew it. That was the year we won the conference and we still suced. We could have beat Texas this year and we blew it. We have looked terrible against top tier universities. We beat Fresno State in the Hawaii bowl. Who cares. If you want to get on ESPN, you have be competitive against the top conferences. I am not saying we should win but at least have a chance to win in the Fourth quarter. Really pathetic and we are paying him $800 K?
(11-08-2015 08:26 PM)Antarius Wrote:  
(11-08-2015 06:14 PM)jhruzek Wrote:  If marketing is the goal, making a bowl year after year, regardless of which bowl, achieves the goal. You cannot tell me that the 4th quarter of the Hawaii Bowl didn't achieve the marketing goals of the University.

Yes I can. What is the tangible benefit achieved? Most of Houston doesn't appear to know or care that we went to and won a bowl, let alone have been to 3.

Attendance is still paltry. Student interested is functionally non existent. The number of fans at HRs without grey hair can be counted on two hands.

We are still firmly irrelevant to the rest of the world. The Hawaii bowl was a ton of fun for the players and us fans , but that is about it. the needle still hasn't moved and won't move until we elevate to a level far higher than beating 6-6 teams in small potatoes bowl games.
11-08-2015 08:34 PM
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Post: #14
RE: Why fire baliff
(11-08-2015 08:26 PM)Antarius Wrote:  We are still firmly irrelevant to the rest of the world. The Hawaii bowl was a ton of fun for the players and us fans , but that is about it. the needle still hasn't moved and won't move until we elevate to a level far higher than beating 6-6 teams in small potatoes bowl games.

Do you have a hypothesis about how to regain relevance? Hambone was quite prolific writing on that topic a while back. Do you endorse his version or do you have one of your own.

My energy has been concentrated on the idea that we can be a much better football team, that many schools have run by us without meaningfully more resources (e.g, Memphis, La Tech, Utah State, Western Kentucky, Northern Illinois) and that no matter how many times Rick Gerlach says otherwise, I believe it is more about coaching than about JUCO or P5 transfers, and none of those schools paid what we are paying when they began dominating conferences and taking highly respected P5 teams late in games or to OT or beating them.

But I'm not certain that going on the road and beating Stanford would sell any tickets in Houston for HRS. maybe it would?
11-08-2015 08:37 PM
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Post: #15
RE: Why fire baliff
(11-08-2015 08:37 PM)MemOwl Wrote:  But I'm not certain that going on the road and beating Stanford would sell any tickets in Houston for HRS. maybe it would?

Doing it once probably won't. Doing it three times in a row would, particularly if we knock off a Baylor or Texas in between. If we had Navy's record against the P5 (35% wins) and against the non-P5 (80% wins), then we'd have a bunch more people at HRS. Let's plug their success rate into our schedules over the last 13 years (because that's the time frame I have handy):

We're 68-89 over that stretch, 3-30 against the P5's and 65-59 against everybody else.
Equaling Navy's performance would have us 111-46 overall over that stretch, 12-21 against P5 (almost certainly including some signature wins, since Navy beat ND 3 times in that run and also took Ohio State down to the last snap in Columbus) and 99-27 against all others. We'd almost certainly have a few more bowls (and maybe conference championship games) in that run, which I haven't factored in.

For comparison, UH (easy since it coincides with Art Briles getting there) is 100-63, Tulsa (Kragthorpe forward) is 93-70, SMU is 53-112 (basically Phil Bennett forward), and Memphis (basically Tommy West forward) is 69-85, to give an idea where we would have stood relative to other "peer" schools who "moved up" to AAC.

And if it were not possible, Navy would not have done it. They have a few advantages, we have bigger and stronger and faster athletes, the net effect should not tip the scales in their favor.
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2015 09:49 PM by Owl 69/70/75.)
11-08-2015 08:55 PM
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owl40 Offline
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Post: #16
RE: Why fire baliff
Said in many times on other threads.

All stakeholders need hope for this program. There was hope before this season that program was moving in right direction but that is mostly gone now.

Natural result is the conversation moves from the few passionate stakeholders left looking to the HC to provide that hope but get coachspeak like 'need to work harder' instead. Other non-passionate stakeholders just eject and go on to other things and result in even more empty seats in HRS.

Then conversation goes to looking for the AD to make a HC change for someone else to provide hope. Passionate fanbase points out all the positive examples of energy and hope being injected into other 'like' programs which is missing at Rice FB but is there in spades for Rice MBB and WBB. Problem is that other 'like' schools funded their change. At Rice, nobody is willing to get their checkbook out to fund what it would take for coaching change as we barely scraped enough together for EZF. So financial realities with no additional Brian Patterson-like people emerging make status quo reality. Back to earlier posts on 'it is a Rice problem, not a DB problem' Just hot air here on Parliament.

So against that backdrop of reality, regardless of outcome of 7-5 or 5-7 against this weak schedule, it is imperative for DB and/or JK to show the small remaining base on why there is hope that days will be better (e.g., new staff coming in, new players, new schemes, etc.) in the future. I'm sure the EZF and all the frosh getting experience this year will be the answer to that question but not sure it is enough to satisfy the thirsty stakeholders. They need more..

The AD answering to the President/BoT can't sustain dwindling empty seats in HRS forever. He can obfuscate it with some creative ways to count tickets 'sold' but can't sustain empty stadiums forever. Rice needs butts-in-seats and combo of poor Rice FB product on field packaged with uninteresting opponents is not going to get it done. Eventually those financial realities become greater than the FB staff cost/recruitment realities of today.

I like DB. Much more than most here. I want him to succeed and show that you don't have to be a jerk like many top FBS coaches to win. Other than winning out convincingly as first priority, my recommendation for him is to get up and connect with the few remaining people left on why there is hope to better days ahead and why people should care and pay attention to Rice FB. Paint a picture and a vision and explain crisply and specifically how you get there. Bridge it to the broader athletic vision supplied by JK. Not in fire and brimstone, throw a chair sort-of-way as that is not his style but in an emotional, authentic way that shows people DB is the guy that is going to get this program to a better place vs. just being the nice guy who graduates the kids and comes across satisfied w/ the status quo. He needs to expose himself in candid way vs. standing behind the normal coachspeak lines. I think if he does not do that, than he will continue to just lose support (beyond Parliament) until it forces change. I do think if he does than he gets a longer rope as people just want a plan on what is going to change to make this program relevant and aligned w/ the broader athletic vision. And that is all people want...a path to something better and relevant.
11-08-2015 08:58 PM
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mrbig Offline
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Post: #17
RE: Why fire baliff
I agree that I have seen no quit in the players. They did look like they quit at times during from 2009 through mid-2012. Only a few times, I just made a wide range because I can't remember the specific games at this point. Probably a beat-down in late 2009 or 2010 I had that feeling when watching the game.
11-08-2015 09:36 PM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #18
RE: Why fire baliff
(11-08-2015 08:58 PM)owl40 Wrote:  Said in many times on other threads.

All stakeholders need hope for this program. There was hope before this season that program was moving in right direction but that is mostly gone now.

Natural result is the conversation moves from the few passionate stakeholders left looking to the HC to provide that hope but get coachspeak like 'need to work harder' instead. Other non-passionate stakeholders just eject and go on to other things and result in even more empty seats in HRS.

Then conversation goes to looking for the AD to make a HC change for someone else to provide hope. Passionate fanbase points out all the positive examples of energy and hope being injected into other 'like' programs which is missing at Rice FB but is there in spades for Rice MBB and WBB. Problem is that other 'like' schools funded their change. At Rice, nobody is willing to get their checkbook out to fund what it would take for coaching change as we barely scraped enough together for EZF. So financial realities with no additional Brian Patterson-like people emerging make status quo reality. Back to earlier posts on 'it is a Rice problem, not a DB problem' Just hot air here on Parliament.

So against that backdrop of reality, regardless of outcome of 7-5 or 5-7 against this weak schedule, it is imperative for DB and/or JK to show the small remaining base on why there is hope that days will be better (e.g., new staff coming in, new players, new schemes, etc.) in the future. I'm sure the EZF and all the frosh getting experience this year will be the answer to that question but not sure it is enough to satisfy the thirsty stakeholders. They need more..

The AD answering to the President/BoT can't sustain dwindling empty seats in HRS forever. He can obfuscate it with some creative ways to count tickets 'sold' but can't sustain empty stadiums forever. Rice needs butts-in-seats and combo of poor Rice FB product on field packaged with uninteresting opponents is not going to get it done. Eventually those financial realities become greater than the FB staff cost/recruitment realities of today.

Which appears to be why some are urgently concerned that our present course under this coach, if it was to have been ultimately successful at all, was taking way too long and we are rapidly running out of time.


(11-08-2015 08:58 PM)owl40 Wrote:  I like DB. Much more than most here. I want him to succeed and show that you don't have to be a jerk like many top FBS coaches to win. Other than winning out convincingly as first priority, my recommendation for him is to get up and connect with the few remaining people left on why there is hope to better days ahead and why people should care and pay attention to Rice FB. Paint a picture and a vision and explain crisply and specifically how you get there. Bridge it to the broader athletic vision supplied by JK. Not in fire and brimstone, throw a chair sort-of-way as that is not his style but in an emotional, authentic way that shows people DB is the guy that is going to get this program to a better place vs. just being the nice guy who graduates the kids and comes across satisfied w/ the status quo. He needs to expose himself in candid way vs. standing behind the normal coachspeak lines. I think if he does not do that, than he will continue to just lose support (beyond Parliament) until it forces change. I do think if he does than he gets a longer rope as people just want a plan on what is going to change to make this program relevant and aligned w/ the broader athletic vision. And that is all people want...a path to something better and relevant.

Not a bad summary, Owl40. But by the latter part of Season 9, I think more people not only wanted to hear words about a clear plan for the first time if he was to return in year 10, they wanted to have already seen clear signs (no longer ambiguous or debatable) of execution of that plan.

Ah, yes--painting. As to your imagery bolded above, it might appear to some you are asking this artist:
[Image: Expensive-painting-Children-drawing-1361519683_16.jpg]
to suddenly now turn on a dime and transform himself overnight into something closer to this artist:
[Image: seurat-jatte.jpg]

At this point, I'm not sure how many really still believe how realistic that may be, but I'd settle right now for someone like this as an improvement over the artist we have:
[Image: Bob_at_Easel.jpg]
After all, though many people chided him, legions of fans watched him and found his work and show entertaining, and he was highly marketable in his own way to fans all across the nation, something we very much seem to be sorely lacking in right now in football, as you so eloquently pointed out.

Look, the first one is a very nice drawing by a nice kid and I have stuff like this on my 'fridge and enjoy it. It is great in its own way, especially if you know the one who did it personally. But few if any would part with real money for it, or spend much time watching it being created more than perhaps once.

Now the second is worth a lot of money to a lot of people. Even people who don't know much about art can generally appreciate there's something special going on behind there. The third is more pedestrian, but still highly entertaining to many, and sells and is highly marketable. Though not a master in absolute terms, it holds its own very well and makes more than enough money and is entertaining enough to justify its existence. We'd all like to have the master artist here. Barring incredible luck, it's hard for us to come by it under our present circumstances. We at least need a "Rusty" to keep us from sinking lower at this point.
(This post was last modified: 11-08-2015 10:21 PM by GoodOwl.)
11-08-2015 09:52 PM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #19
RE: Why fire baliff
Perhaps we need to canvas our supporters ....
11-08-2015 09:57 PM
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Post: #20
Why fire baliff
Why fire Bailiff?
#1. - losing record; did not deliver on the goals this season.
#2 - Team looks awful on both sides of the ball. It starts with the HC
#3- Players look frustrated and not enjoying themselves. No energy. It starts with the HC
#4-we cannot beat any average or above average teams.
#5-we are now losing to the really bad teams
#6-no successor on current staff. It starts with the HC
#7-No change or plans to change out staff. It starts with the HC
#8- Attendance and support disappearing
#9-currently ninth place in a thirteen team conference
#10-everyone else getting better, we are not.
11-08-2015 10:06 PM
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